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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: slaveboy1980 on June 02, 2008, 06:32:49 AM
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EATING FOR SIZE
by Dante
Part I of II
Originally Printed in Hardcore Muscle Issue #8, 1995
With all the high falutin diets going around everywhere now — it’s very hard to decide which direction to go. In this article I’m going to state some facts and then let you, the reader decide what is best for you. I’m probably going to get some guff from people who have different theories than for what I’m about to write — mainly because it seems passe.
Without a doubt — “bulking up” has gotten a bad name lately, but let me tell you why first. One thing Dan Duchaine really grilled into us during our interview with him - is how the market controls everything. The market honestly is not for the cultish class of rebel bodybuilders who want to get extremely massive and shake the earth at his every step. No, the market is for Joe public who would like to look lean all year round and build some muscle if he can too. And what is the next most important facet – convenience! It must be simple, easy to do, and just not a pain in the ass to follow day in and day out.
Yes, everyone wants to be big muscularly if they can, but to the majority - being lean and muscular is vastly more important. OK, I agree that the majority of bodybuilders out there are in this class. I don’t actually consider those guys HARDCORE in my definition of he word but I must see their side too. To me bodybuilding is about growing not dieting (deprivation).
What I want you to look at is this — the big picture. Do you reading this
want to put on as much muscle, as fast as you possibly can — for the pursuit
of your long-term goal?
Or do you want to maybe compromise muscular gains, growing at a much slower rate but you look lean the whole way while trying to put on muscle? This is the tremendously hard decision you have t make. And yes, I feel it is tremendously hard because no one wants to build muscle at a less then optimum rate and no one wants to be a little fatter than they have to be.
Let’s simplify things shall we? Basically you can divide pretty much all the new and old concept diets into two groups. First there is the moderate to low calorie diets which include (nutrient density, high fat [variation] to fat, low caw) diet theories in which in the overwhelming majority of them the calories are pretty much below 3500.
Then there is the moderate to high calorie diets which include High Protein, Parillo, High fat [again — variation] high carb, etc.) diet theories.
I’m going to be blatantly honest here so bear with me. If you want to stay fairly lean (let’s say optimally lean — that’s a better description) and in a genuinely easy diet concept to follow — all along building muscle along the way (not optimally though), then you should probably be on one of the diets in the first group. You have to do what makes you happy and a lot of you won’t be happy being a little plump even though you wilt be a lot bigger muscle wise.
As a lot of you know, what looks good on paper doesn’t always play out well in real life. And more than anywhere else diet theories which even in my discerning eyes, look good on paper — definitely don’t play out well in the gym. I must repeat this. You must think this out and decide what makes you happy. I don’t want you guys coming back and saying “Those fuckin’ guys at H.M. made me fat! Yea. I’m a lot bigger but I’m fat!” I ain’t gonna deal with it. (How’s that for some slang) (My grandmother the English teacher would kill me) So now I’m going to state some facts outside the science/paper arena — that I have seen happen in real life. I’m willing to bet that when you guys think about it, you will come to the same conclusions I have.
A) I have never seen a juiced bodybuilder taking in about 3000 calories a day, go beyond the gains of what ONLY the use/abuse of the sauce has let him gain.
Al) I have seen juiced bodybuilders who took in a tremendous amount of calories get muscle gains and thickness at the fastest rate possible, and so beyond the 3000 calorie/nutrient dense bodybuilders that there isn’t even a close comparison, And don’t even try to argue, “Well it looks like it because they are holding more bodyfat.” True, but when these guys come down in weight there is so much more muscle!
B) I have never seen a natural bodybuilder who tried to stay lean year-round, put on a dramatic increase of muscle size. If you added up alt their brutally hardcore workouts there is no way in Hell that 2-4LBS —at the most (I’ve seen O LBS) in a year is worth it!
BI) I have seen natural bodybuilders who make tremendously huge gains in bodyweight between contests, (and take a lot of verbal abuse for it) come in and crush the competition continually because they gain 10-15LBS of muscle underneath fat every year. Natural powerlifters absolutely crush natural bodybuilders in contests decisively. Why? Off-season bulkup!
C) Correction — I have seen genetically gifted African-American
bodybuilders make gains no matter what the Hell they do! And rarely a genetically superb Caucasian bodybuilder too! Ninety-eight percent of you reading this aren’t in those groups so keep reading.
Cl) I guarantee you — GUARANTEE! — that somewhere right now there is a natural bodybuilder right now reading this who is pissed off and saying it is bullshit. This guy trains incredibly hard, eats incredibly clean, uses the best supplements religiously and stays lean and muscular year -round. Don’t try to argue with him, because he is set in his ways—that’s how natural guys (and some juicers too) are. They are right and you are wrong. They are the most holier-than-thou experts around. I only have one thing to say — check the scale! You weighed 188 three years ago and now you weigh 190??!! Great — by 2005 you will weigh 200L8S! CASE CLOSED! Two hundred and eight workouts in a year for a measly pound of muscle!
D) Shawn Ray, Tony Pearson, Porter Cottrell, Lee Labrada, Mike Ashley, Robby Robinson — these are examples of some bodybuilders who stay lean year-round —and there are some very big guys here and also some very good bodybuilders (Ray, Labrada) but honestly how much improvement in muscle mass do you see from year to year!! Not that much.
Dl) Dorian Yates, Nassir El Sombaty, Dave Fisher, Lee Priest, Chris Duffy, Michael Francois. Here are some great and middle of the road bodybuilders too. But all these guys do pound the food and get bigger every year. Especially the first four! Yates, Sombaty and Fisher are all over 30 or close to it. They have been lifting for over 10 years and are gaining big time muscle still. There are some non-wealthy bodybuilders in both groups, so don’t be ignorant and say, “They must use more drugs:”
E) Is this bodybuilding or should it be called “body leaning” because it seems to me that is where all the new diets are leading to in my eyes. The compromising of extreme muscle gains for the general fear of being fat. I want you to ask yourself this —How long does it take to build extreme muscle size? I would say 5-15 years in my opinion, —— — How long does it take to lose body fat once you have reached the huge muscle size you want? 3-5 months??!! You tell me what the focus should be on. A friend reminded me of something There are models and strippers out there that take a lot of steroids (some on the level of chronic abuse) who train hard, eat really clean because they have to stay lean for their job and yet — they look the exact same year after year after year. When they first started using steroids— yes they looked better — but they hit that plateau fairly quick and stayed there.
Do you see my point yet? What is your goal? Is it to be extremely big or extremely lean? If there is a 175 lb bodybuilder out there who wants to weigh 235 lbs with 8% body fat and thinks he will accomplish that with 2800 calories and nutrient density_ man you are really fooling yourself! It will not happen! I promise you, in four years time you just might weigh 195 lbs. If you went ahead and used illegal steroids you might make it to 215 lbs. But honestly, do you know the quickest way there? — Bulking up to about 285 lbs would get you there. Yes, you would probably be pretty fat, and not happy about being that fat but when you came down, you weigh 230-235 lbs. And be very happy. A sacrifice to get to your final goal. — — The people who tout low calorie diets (I’m not putting them down — I respect them) are their main objectives to keep lean or to build muscle? Read into that please. The examples of themselves and the students they give—Was most of the muscle they have now from past bulking diets? Of course they look better now—they are lean! But was the muscle from bulking up??!! Yes it was most of the time.
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more, please!
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Part II of II
Originally Appeared in Hardcore Muscle
Do you know what I consider the hardest thing in bodybuilding? Oh yeah, the training and dedication is hard — but to continually pound down 6 meals a day on a continual basis is the utmost of chores and dedication. I don’t miss meals. Ahh, that’s too easy — I don’t miss meals to the best of my ability…OK.
So this is where you have to ask yourself—what are my ultimate goals and what is the happiest way I can get there? Do I want to stay extremely lean and maybe compromise some muscle gains? If I bulk up, will the negative people who wait at every chance to say “Getting kind of fat” affect me? Will society keep me from what I truly want to accomplish? See, I admire Dorian and Nasser because they are driven. You will never see those two with a tucked in dress shirt an in the off-season. They are bulked up. Chubby if you like. But they know what kind of muscle they want to put on and don’t give a shit what anyone else says on the way there. Dorian caught a lot of flak on how he looked at the Night of Champions at roughly 300LBS. So what? Did you see what he looked like at the 95 Olympia? DOMINATED is the word.
Segway: I personally think Parillo got a bad rap. I don’t agree with his basic what to eat theories — but I do think he has some ideas that could be put to use. Let’s start this first — I don’t care what crap you read that bodybuilders only need 1.3 grams of protein per kilogram. Bullshit! Look at some of the recent studies that pertain to bodybuilders that lift very heavy and very intense. Not fitness bodyshapers . . .0K! Four grams per kilogram of bodyweight is a good goal to shoot for. Actually shoot for the protein content of the bodyweight you want to weigh.. i.e. 260LBS = 354 to 472 grams of protein a day. 300LBS = 409 to 545 grams a day. Second of all you are going to have to decide which way you are going to go(a) moderate/high carbs and varying fats or b) high fat and low carb diet — Duchaine’s and Dipasquale’s diet. The big problem everyone has with the high carb diet is that with the high carbs comes an onset of high insulin which will—yes tend to put fat on the body (lipogenesis). But that is not all bad because insulin also pushes nutrients (amino acids) into the muscle cells and there is nothing wrong with that. But when these nutrient stores are filled, this is where a lot of bodyfat is laid down on the body. So it is a catch 22 situation. The extra bodyfat could probably give you a little extra leverage in some movements. But this is not what I think most diet experts are looking at. They look at insulin from a leanness perspective instead of its benefits of pushing nutrients into the muscle cells.
The problem with the higher carb bulking diets is that you can get very groggy and sleepy especially after a very high carb meal. It comes from an onrush of insulin and the release of a chemical in the brain — serotonin (especially when nutrient/carb stores in the muscle are saturated already). So there are good points and bad points to high protein — moderate to high cart diets.
People with superb metabolisms can benefit greatly from them in the way of superb muscle gains if they can put up with the groggy episodes that will affect them from time to time. Others who decide to go this route with lesser metabolisms either put up with the extra bodyfat and realize that when the tines comes they will take it off or perform aerobic work to keep their bodyfat levels in check. But you must realize that yes, the aerobics will let you have a high density/high nutrient/calorie diet but it also is an additional form of stress on the body that can catabolize muscle if overdone. This is where I thought Parillo had some nice ideas as far as aerobics done only for l/2 an hour at a time morning and night. I would also think that on training days only the morning session (if that) would have to be done. Better yet, my opinion would be only do the aerobics on off training days if you feel you have to do them. To be totally honest, people who take steroids are probably not going to have to do much aerobically because anabolics have a slight thermogenic effect and also they will be in such a superior muscle building situation that most gains (initially at least— not long term) will be in the way of muscle, not bodyfat. With receptor sites saturated and slower muscle gains, body fat will accumulate, many add clenbuterol to bulking diets to keep bodyfat at a minimum. Phenformin, Metformin and Vanadyl Sulfate work extremely well for most people on high carb diets. They mimic insulin in a way — driving glycogen into the muscles. In theory this should make you fuller looking and have less glucose left over to be transformed into triglycerides — stored bodyfat. A word to the wise — Metformin and Phenformin are very strong drugs so use them with caution. If you are not insulin deficient to some degree I would stick to the Vanadyl Sulfate. You know everyone and his mother argues how high calorie diets don’t work and their big point is the bodyfat. But I have yet to see someone disprove that it is the fastest way to put on muscle! Yes it puts on body fat, but there are ways to control that pretty much aerobically if someone is really serious about putting on the size. I look at someone like Michael O’Hearn (Natural USA champ) who has to stay fairly lean now because of work, but was a serious powerlifter and has been up to 285 LBS or so. That’s about 60 LBS over his bodybuilding contest weight.
There are a lot of excesses in this sport and I personally believe that the body is an incredibly adaptive machine — and if there is a tremendous demand (brutal heavy workouts), the body will not just store every single excess calorie as bodyfat, but will slowly adapt itself into a greater and greater musculature. Before you debunk this, think back through history of how man has adapted and evolved. The command (heavy weights) has to be there, no doubt. Think about the Sumo study that we talked about in issue six. The Sumo wrestlers had greater lean body mass than the bodybuilders. How? They hardly weight train. But their caloric intake is a lot higher. What would happen if the Sumos both weight trained and kept their bodyfat in check with daily morning and night aerobics? You tell me! The only difference in that equation was food intake.
I am not saying that the nutrient density low calorie diets don’t work, not at all! They work— they are great at keeping off excess bodyfat and slowly building muscle at the same time. I think they are great for the businessman/fitness person. But for an extremely Hardcore bodybuilder trying to build up mass to intimidating proportions, I really think you have to goad your body into believing it has to adapt to a bigger musculature. 2,700 calories tells it to stay midsize. 6,000 - 10,000 calories tells it something else — and in my opinion that something is get much bigger by storing bodyfat and a bigger musculature. Yes, the musculature is a slow adaptation and the bodyfat a fast one, but I feel the muscle adaptation is far greater than it is from the low calorie diets. And we have talked about how to keep the control of bodyfat with aerobics. I didn’t say it was easy or simple. But if your body won’t gain bodytat at 2,000 calories a day, why the hell do you think it will gain any muscle — which is so much harder to do!
I’ve mentioned the high protein/moderate to high carb diet. I’m going to skip Parillo’s because I don’t personally agree with all his dieting theories (Sorry John). But the other high calorie diet that I think is very worthy of mentioning is the high fat diet that both Dipausquale and Duchaine have worked on. Dipausquale has been kind ot vague with his theories somewhat on this diet, but I do believe Dan is going to be much more precise with his. He told us that. Both bulking diets I’ve talked about recommend red meat as a main cog in the diet. I agree totally. The creatine and amino acid pool in red meat is very beneficial. The high fat diet goes something like this— 5 days high fat (Monday thru Friday) /carbs kept under 30 grams a day each of those days / roughly 55-60% fat, 30-55% protein and 5-8% carbs. On the weekend there is a 2 day carb load where the breakdown is 30-40% fat. 10-15% protein, 45-60% carbs. So during the week, samples of food you can eat are — steak, sausage, bacon, ham, eggs, pork, chicken, lamb, veal, kielbasa, (no-carb) protein drinks, etc. - -
During the weekend pretty much anything goes and you can carb up to your hearts content. I know what some of you are thinking or have been programmed to think! That this diet is dangerous because fats are dangerous. Not altogether true!
The principles and theories behind this diet are extremely sound. Without the chronically elevated insulin levels of the high carb diet comes less stored bodyfat. OK, here it is laid out. You carb up over the weekend. and your body uses the stored glycogen in the muscle for energy during Monday and Tuesday (varying), and then switches over to using tree fatty acids and bodyfat as energy when the glycogen stores are gone. The free fatty acids are broken down from the high fat diet and triglycerides (stored bodyfat)are broken down to free fatty acids and then to ketones—an energy source. In a sense, stored body fat acts as glycogen and the free fatty acids act as glucose. Lowering the calories uses more body fat as energy. To gain mass, a higher calorie intake is taken in. This diet looks to be right up the natural bodybuilder’s alley. And I urge you to either try Dipausquales book or Duchaine’s book when it comes available. There is too much info to summarize Dipausquale’s book here- It is called the Anabolic Diet — 50 bucks or so. Some of Hardcore Muscle’s readers have been giving me feedback on the high fat diet and most of them that stuck to it — think it is a godsend! If your body doesn’t metabolize carbs very well and you have been stuck for a couple years with minimum gains — give this a try will you??!!
There is only one problem I have with the high fat diet. I wonder with only manipulating insulin on the weekends, if there is any loss of benefit during the week of not having insulin driving amino acids into the muscle cells. Something tells me Dan Duchaine, being the problem solver that he is — will have some sort of solution to this in his diet. Basically my opinion is this — you have 30 grams of carbohydrate to play with during the week days. Obviously the best way to utilize them would be to do so on training days right after a workout where your body would be most insulin receptive. Half a cup of grape juice (the rest water) in a no carb protein drink (would have only 17 grams of carbs) could probably do some good and still give you 13 grams of carbs to play with the rest of the day.
I’m not so sure that some sort of insulin spike (in an after workout scenario on the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday — high fat / no carb days) would prove to be harmful. Im talking about only on workout days, of those 3 days. Something in an allowance over the 30 grams consisting of Dans prior recommendation of juice and ion exchange whey powder. A whopping dose of it! But that would bring you over 30 grams at carbs. On the high fat diet, you would definitely have to supplement multivitamins to ward off any chance of deficiencies anywhere. In theory, if you kept strict on this diet — it would be less likely to acquire an abundance of bodyfat even when bulking. But as in the other high calorie diet — you might have to include some aerobics if the bodyfat levels start getting over the level you have set to yourself. The downside to this diet is it can get very monotonous eating the same meats day after day. That is why you have to make a concerted effort to change things up. Chicken wings, scrambled, poached, boiled, eggs, steak, rnarinated with different marinades, pork chops, etc. Remember condiments and marinades have a lot of hidden carbs. People who are very sinewy, very muscular and have trouble putting on muscle could take their choice of these two diets and benefit from either one of them. African Americans and some taller whiles are usually in that group. Others would most likely have to keep a check on the bodyfat with very slight aerobics. Some lead a very active life style (work, play) and can keep that extra fat off. Endomorphs will really have to work hard with aerobics because they will really push the fat levels up. That is your genetic blueprint, I’m sorry.
In this sport, both you and I know people who train hard and heavy. There are so many bodybuilders out there now it’s incredible. Go to your gym and count the people who lift hard. Now go thru all those people and think how many have gotten continually bigger over the years (including yourself). How many plateaus do you see? Most of those people are eating 2300-3000 calories a day. Are you one of those people who blindly thinks he is growing but then 10 years later looks back and realizes that thru all those years and all those workouts (the time put in) that you really are exactly the same??!! What a waste. Don’t take no for an answer. The body is an adaptive machine. Force that mother to adapt. Strength is size. To be a 250LB bodybuilder you are going to have to eat like one and train like one. A 250 LB bodybuilder who wants to be a 280 LB bodybuilder will not get there if he eats 2500 calories. He has to eat his way up to 28O LBS. Muscle is a hard to come by commodity. To get fat is pretty easy. You know how to control that fat — it will range from no aerobics to 1/2 hour aerobics, morning and night 6 times a week. In 4 years from now do you want 4 more pounds of muscle or 30-45 LBS more muscle. I’m a bodyBUILDER, the choice is easy for me. I hope you reread this article and really look at the examples and comparisons I cited. It comes down to what makes you happy. In my eyes at least, a hardcore bodybuilders main emphasis is on muscle (hard work, strength, and dedication) and a secondary emphasis on body fat. Some people will put an emphasis on bodyfat and a secondary emphasis on muscle. If you take genetics and drugs out of the equation, how would you — the trainer — answer the following question?
“Im 180 LBS and I want to be 280 LBS. I want to gain muscular size at the quickest, fastest rate possible all the while keeping my bodyfat at a satisfactory level. There is a million dollars in it for you it you can do it in 6 years or less.” What would you have to have him do to get him there??!! ME? — This guy would never miss a meal, get to know a treadmill on a regular basis, and be a rest pausing maniac. And I would have a million in 5 years. not six!
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Great find bro. Dante knows his shit, I wish more people would realize that!
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im not gonna read all that but i take it it's about eating more calories? what a great discovery!
give that man dante an award! thats what i say
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he didnt say anythign of importance there, nothing about nutrition or biochemistry, just eat more food, and common sense strategies
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one of the very few things i agree with dante on, not that i am some kind of note worthy critique or anything, but i think his most important contribution is his re inforcement of extreme protein for bodybuilders.
for an enhanced athlete you can DEFINITELy utilize all that protein. for the natural athlete, you might not use 500 grams of protein, but igested the extra protein (calories) you ARE going to grow faster just because your eating more.... and eating more protein wont make you fat like eating more carbs and fats will.
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I actually disagree on this one. The amount that is recommended is extreme and will simply do nothing but make most bodybuilders, even if they're juiced to the gills fatter. Your body will use what protein it can and the excess will be converted into CARBS which will then probably be stored as fat. Some you will even end up pissing out if you really overdo it. I have seen countless lifters over the year go buy their huge tubs of whey protein and down shake after shake trying to get more protein in only to end up with no extra results and usually a bit fatter for their effort. You do need plenty of protein of course, especially large juiced lifters, but still there is a limit, plus protein synthesis is only one of many important factors in muscle growth. I remember reading about how Vic Martinez was taking 3 protein shakes in a day and when he began preperation for the night of champions, Chris A. told him to stop them completly that he was dieting and that it was nothing but extra un-needed caliores that would slow his dieting proecess. Martinez was supoosedly very concerned at first about doing this, but well you know the rest.
Most of the extreme protein recommendations, study’s, etc "like many muscletech studies" are crap and promoted by the people that sell whey protein as that is the only way most people will be able to get in the extreme amounts they recommend, by consuming multiple protein shakes throughout the day.
What was it that Dante sell again? I forgot.
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The amount that is recommended is extreme and will simply do nothing but make most bodybuilders, even if they're juiced to the gills fatter.
Your body will use what protein it can and the excess will be converted into CARBS which will then probably be stored as fat.
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he didnt say anythign of importance
please...share with us, what is important ???
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What was it that Dante sell again? I forgot.
Did you actually take the time to look at the date of that article? 1995. It was actually written in 1993-1994 and published in 1995 because Duchaine wanted to talk to me about his diet first.
So thats 13-15 years ago I wrote that.
Trueprotein opened in 2004, four years ago
Hell of a marketing plan there....I waited 10 years?
I had no aspirations of opening Trueprotein anytime before 2003....I was working for a software company.
There wasnt even the internet as we know it back then in 93-95....that article came from an underground newsletter I used to write.
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Did you actually take the time to look at the date of that article? 1995. It was actually written in 1993-1994 and published in 1995 because Duchaine wanted to talk to me about his diet first.
So thats 13-15 years ago I wrote that.
Trueprotein opened in 2004, four years ago
Hell of a marketing plan there....I waited 10 years?
I had no aspirations of opening Trueprotein anytime before 2003....I was working for a software company.
Too much to read in this short of time. Please sum it up. Were you trying to say that bulking is good and it will add muscle as opposed to staying leaner (10-15 lbs from contest).
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Too much to read in this short of time. Please sum it up. Were you trying to say that bulking is good and it will add muscle as opposed to staying leaner (10-15 lbs from contest).
ulike the obvious spam you post, huh?
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ulike the obvious spam you post, huh?
k.......whatever that had to do with this thread ???
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Too much to read in this short of time. Please sum it up. Were you trying to say that bulking is good and it will add muscle as opposed to staying leaner (10-15 lbs from contest).
Couldnt tell you, i would have to read the whole thing and I dont feel like it...its too old.
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Couldnt tell you, i would have to read the whole thing and I dont feel like it...its too old.
But you wrote it and commented on it!
Anyway, long story short, IMO I have never believed in "bulking up" at least to the extent to where someone would have to drop 25-50lbs for a show. There has never been to my knowledge any scientific proof that bulkling up would lead to better muscle gains especially for the "natural" bodybuilder.
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Did you actually take the time to look at the date of that article? 1995. It was actually written in 1993-1994 and published in 1995 because Duchaine wanted to talk to me about his diet first.
So thats 13-15 years ago I wrote that.
Trueprotein opened in 2004, four years ago
Hell of a marketing plan there....I waited 10 years?
I had no aspirations of opening Trueprotein anytime before 2003....I was working for a software company.
There wasnt even the internet as we know it back then in 93-95....that article came from an underground newsletter I used to write.
It does seem a little "coincidental" that a protein salesman is advising the ingestion of tons of protein. I'm no fan of dc training and would recommend other programs to anyone looking for quick muscular size. I like 10 Week Size Surge (POF), the old Universal Bodybuilding 12-Week Course. I also have developed my own RedMeat Course based on my research. If anyone wants more info on that, let me know.
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I actually disagree on this one. The amount that is recommended is extreme and will simply do nothing but make most bodybuilders, even if they're juiced to the gills fatter. Your body will use what protein it can and the excess will be converted into CARBS which will then probably be stored as fat. Some you will even end up pissing out if you really overdo it. I have seen countless lifters over the year go buy their huge tubs of whey protein and down shake after shake trying to get more protein in only to end up with no extra results and usually a bit fatter for their effort. You do need plenty of protein of course, especially large juiced lifters, but still there is a limit, plus protein synthesis is only one of many important factors in muscle growth. I remember reading about how Vic Martinez was taking 3 protein shakes in a day and when he began preperation for the night of champions, Chris A. told him to stop them completly that he was dieting and that it was nothing but extra un-needed caliores that would slow his dieting proecess. Martinez was supoosedly very concerned at first about doing this, but well you know the rest.
Most of the extreme protein recommendations, study’s, etc "like many muscletech studies" are crap and promoted by the people that sell whey protein as that is the only way most people will be able to get in the extreme amounts they recommend, by consuming multiple protein shakes throughout the day.
What was it that Dante sell again? I forgot.
OKAY... PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE ANYONE, JUCIED OR NATURAL, FAT.
IM WAITING SMART GUY
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OKAY... PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE ANYONE, JUCIED OR NATURAL, FAT.
IM WAITING SMART GUY
excess calories (no matter where they come from) are or can be stored as fat
hope this helps genius
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OKAY... PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE ANYONE, JUCIED OR NATURAL, FAT.
IM WAITING SMART GUY
Are you serious? Well if you are protein has calories, just like carbs and fat have calories. If you eat TOO MUCH of anything, protein, carbs, or fat it can put fat on you. If you eat more protein than your body is capable of using, it doesn't magically disappear, it gets converted into carbs and then often into fat.
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Are you serious? Well if you are protein has calories, just like carbs and fat have calories. If you eat TOO MUCH of anything, protein, carbs, or fat it can put fat on you. If you eat more protein than your body is capable of using, it doesn't magically disappear, it gets converted into carbs and then often into fat.
maybe "dizzle" was confusing protein and cocaine? (they sound similar)
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excess calories (no matter where they come from) are or can be stored as fat
hope this helps genius
OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
FUCKING MORON
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Are you serious? Well if you are protein has calories, just like carbs and fat have calories. If you eat TOO MUCH of anything, protein, carbs, or fat it can put fat on you. If you eat more protein than your body is capable of using, it doesn't magically disappear, it gets converted into carbs and then often into fat.
OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
FUCKING MORON
OWNED
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OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
FUCKING MORON
"dizz" take the straw outta ur nose and read this
excess calories (no matter where they come from) are or can be stored as fat
hope this helps genius
btw i used to get "Dantes" newsletter "hardcore muscle" back in the early 1990's
was the best info found anywhere
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Damn C-Dizzle,you gotta` start reading better mags to parrot info from if you don`t even know that excess cals can make you fat regardless of the macro source!!
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Damn C-Dizzle,you gotta` srart reading better mags to parrot info from if you don`t even know that excess cals can make you fat regardless of the macro source!!
hahahhahahhaahha!
(hi tim)
;D
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Hi Mike!! LOL :)
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AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
liquid c explained it to you. Why don't you spend more time reading and less time typing kid.
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YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMAN BODY IS ELEMENTARY AT BEST
"EXCESS CALORIES"
HAHAHHAHA
SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
BETTER WATCH OUT FOR THOSE CALORIES IN VEGETABLES, CALORIES IN OMEGA 3'S, CALORIES IN LEAN PROTEINS !!!
;D ;D ;D
KEEP COUNTING YOUR CALORIES MORONS
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OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
FUCKING MORON
Well, using your logic, I could in theory, diet down for a show and take in a large 50 gram protein shake with every meal, 350 extra grams of protein and I should still be losing fat at the same rate VS if I took in one or no shake(s) a day along with my regular meals. Try it and let me know how you do.
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Well, using your logic, I could in theory, diet down for a show and take in a large 50 gram protein shake with every meal, 350 extra grams of protein and I should still be losing fat at the same rate VS if I took in one or no shake(s) a day along with my regular meals. Try it and let me know how you do.
ok absolutely ! the two are unrelated
in fact youll lose fat quicker because whey protein causes a dramatic increase in protein syntheses which is a process that requies a large amount of energy. and, as you increase your amount of muscle mass from all that protein, you will in turn burN more calories through out the day and in turn burn more fat.
PLEASE, DO NOT SPEAK
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ok absolutely ! the two are unrelated
in fact youll lose fat quicker because whey protein causes a dramatic increase in protein syntheses which is a process that requies a large amount of energy. and, as you increase your amount of muscle mass from all that protein, you will in turn burN more calories through out the day and in turn burn more fat.
PLEASE, DO NOT SPEAK
actually we are typing
dizzle ;)
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ok absolutely ! the two are unrelated
in fact youll lose fat quicker because whey protein causes a dramatic increase in protein syntheses which is a process that requies a large amount of energy. and, as you increase your amount of muscle mass from all that protein, you will in turn burN more calories through out the day and in turn burn more fat.
PLEASE, DO NOT SPEAK
Let me make sure I understand you. You are saying that protein takes more energy for the body to use "at least if your a bodybuilder" than it actually gives you so that additional huge amounts of protein will not only never make you fat, but will help lean you out at the same time due to the energy it takes to process them?
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BRINGING UP WHEY PROTEIN ONLY PROVES THE POINT DANTE TRIED TO GET ACROSS TO YOU "FDA FOOD PYRAMID" BULLSHIT FOLLOWERS
OKAY, LETS SAY YOU EAT 600 GRAMS PROTEIN OVER 12 HOURS TIME. IF YOU EAT IT EVENLY, THAT MEANS YOU HAVE A STEADY AMOUNT OF 50 GRAMS PROTEIN IN YOUR BLOD STREAM AT ANY GIVEN TIME
IF 600 GRAMS PROTEIN PER DAY MAKES YOU FAT, THEN 50 GRAMS PROTEIN IN THE BLOODSTREAM MAKES YOU FAT
HOW CAN WE SIMUL;ATE THIS ?
50 GRAMS PRE DIGESTED PROTEIN....EITHE WHEY OR EGG WHITES
NOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DRINK 50 GRAMS WHEY OR 50 GRAMS EGG WHITES? HUGE INCREASE IN PROTEIN SYNTHESIS THAT USES UP ALL THOSE AMINO ACIDS !
PROTEIN, QUOTE UNQUOTE, TAKES CARE OF ITSELF !
SO WITH DRAMATIC INCREASES IN BLOOOD CONCENTRATIONS OF AMINO ACIDS, SO WE SEE DRAMATIOC INCREASES IN THE RATE OF PROTEIN SYNTHESIS
AND PROTEIN IS NOT CONVERTED INTO SUGAR UNLESS WE HAVE A GLUCOSE DEMAN THAT ISNT BEING FULFILLED BY GLUCOSE ! AND THEN ONLY ENOUGH PROTEIN GETS CONVERTED IN ORDER TO MEET THAT GLUCOSE DEMAND.
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Let me make sure I understand you. You are saying that protein takes more energy for the body to use "at least if your a bodybuilder" than it actually gives you so that additional huge amounts of protein will not only never make you fat, but will help lean you out at the same time due to the energy it takes to process them?
MEAT = SLOW DIGESTING, ANTI-CATABOLIC, THERMIC THROUGH DIGESTION
PRE DIGESTED PROTEIN = FAST DIGESTING, ANABOLIC, THERMIC THROUGH PROTEIN SYNTHESIS
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dizzle = 18 yr old that knows it all
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dizzle = 18 yr old that knows it all
MAKE IT 19 YEARS OLD ,,, AND COMPARED TO WHO ? COMPARED TO YOU SURE I KNOW IT ALL COMPARED TO YOU
COMPARED TO LEGIT EXPERTS? NO I DONT KNOW JACK SHIT
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UNBELIEVABLE OWNING OF THE INFANTILE
;D ;D ;D
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The thermic effect during digestion is very very minimal C-Dizzle.
Not many people will be able absorb,digest,and assimilate 600 or so grams of protein depending.........trust me on that,gear or no gear, without putting on mucho fat.
Taking into consideration that they are also eating carbs and fats.
The body will use the amount that it needs and that`s it bro.
Google glucogenesis.
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The thermic effect during digestion is very very minimal C-Dizzle. LOL. wes the thermic effect from digesting huge ! you are the one who needs to research
Not many people will be able absorb,digest,and assimilate 600 or so grams of protein depending.........trust me on that,gear or no gear, without putting on mucho fat. what does digestign absorbing and assimilating rptoei have to do with putting on fat ? nothing at all. "trust me on that"
Taking into consideration that they are also eating carbs and fats. okay. and? your point is? ::)
The body will use the amount that it needs and that`s it bro. how much protein does the body "need", wes? answer me that. does the body "need" 60 grams protein at one time in the blood? it doesnt seem that way when you are digestign meat proteins which will never reach that kind of concentration. but when you eat a pre digested source of protein and you do attain that concentration in the blood, then it DOES seem to need that much protein at one time, wes, because protein synthesis gets elevtaed to that level !
Google glucogenesis. what do you think i was talking about when i said "protein turnover rate to glucose" ? huh? no my friend you are the one who needs to do some googling and researching
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any other takers?
i am tryign to help you people
many of you have genetics that absolutely kill mine
if you use this knowledge i am trying to give to you, that dante was trying to give to you, you can greatly benefit
these attacks on the people who are challenging this idea are not because i hate people with ignoraqnce but just because this is getbig and "owning" = teh fun
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Dude,try eating 600 grams consistantly and tell me you did not get fat.
That`s what my post was reffering to.
Anyone can eat 600 grams,but you will not utilize it unless you weigh 300 pounds,and then only if the body needs that much for repair/growth.
Just because you eat it doesn`t mean your body utilizes it to build muscle.
Dude,I`ve forgotten more about bodybuilding than you could ever read.
I don`t know a lot of scientific terminology,but I know what works for most people and what is complete horseshit.
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DC said you`d gain fat in his article for Christs sake.,
I`m out bro,you`ll learn that real world experience beats a book or magazine 99% of the time..............hopefu lly.
Now back to the new issue of Flex with you son. :)
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Dude,try eating 600 grams consistantly and tell me you did not get fat.
That`s what my post was reffering to.
Anyone can eat 600 grams,but you will not utilize it unless you weigh 300 pounds,and then only if the body needs that much for repair/growth.
Just because you eat it doesn`t mean your body utilizes it to build muscle.
Dude,I`ve forgotten more about bodybuilding than you could ever read.
I don`t know a lot of scientific terminology,but I know what works for most people and what is complete horseshit.
basically you are giving up in this post
and even in this post you have misinformation
why would 300 lber need more thn an one else? you suggest thaqt you only need enough to grow and repai, nothing else, well if protein is only for growth....a 300 lber will be growing MUCH LESS than someone of less weight...
::)
wes you dont know alot of scientific terms, but you dont know any other shit either
:D
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A 300 pounder would need more than a 150 pounder,don`t ya` think?
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any other takers?
i am tryign to help you people
many of you have genetics that absolutely kill mine
if you use this knowledge i am trying to give to you, that dante was trying to give to you, you can greatly benefit
these attacks on the people who are challenging this idea are not because i hate people with ignoraqnce but just because this is getbig and "owning" = teh fun
The simple fact is that protein provides energy/calories. Sure there's the thermic effect but it doesn't mean protein provides no energy and all the excess, that which is not used for building muscle, disappears through thermic effect.
I don't think there's any expert or authority who thinks this. Even among those I consider misguided I don't think I've ever seen anyone make such a claim.
You could make the same type of claim for carbs. Carbs do not really turn to bodyfat in any normal situation (i.e. de-novo lipogenesis) but this doesn't mean carbs cannot make you fat.
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this is exactly what i mean......instead of being respectful and listening to someone (wes) with a ton of knowledge/advice ..you insult and name call him
wes could teach you so much (info others would charge you money to disperse)
contest prep/dieting training
etc etc ............
instead u quote "google" and think u know it all
(i read everything i could get my hands on/ask tons of questions)
if wes had been around i would have picked his brain dry!
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The simple fact is that protein provides energy/calories. protein contains calories, van. energy ? no amino acids are not energy...they can be converted into energy yes. Sure there's the thermic effect a huge one but it doesn't mean protein provides no energy and all the excess, that which is not used for building muscle like i showed with the whey protein example... protein seems to take care of itself, and as blood concentrations of amino acids rise, so does the rate of protein synthesis. so "excess protein" is kind of imaginary. although i wont say its completely out of the question.... for example, 100 grams whey protein at one sitting, i would imagine that would be a little bit excessive) , disappears through thermic effect i never said amino acids dissapear .
I don't think there's any expert or authority who thinks this. Even among those I consider misguided I don't think I've ever seen anyone make such a claim.
You could make the same type of claim for carbs. Carbs do not really turn to bodyfat in any normal situation (i.e. de-novo lipogenesis) but this doesn't mean carbs cannot make you fat. bad comparison. through what mechanims would protei have to go through to be stored as fat ? tunred into carbs, sure..(and its debateable whether ro not youll have have that happen unless you have a gluose demand that isnt being met by glucose itself), and then once turned into glucose it must by excesse glucose, you must have packed glycogen stores, and then it can be stored as fat. i order for it to be excesse glucose, amino acids turn over rate into glucose would have to be very quick. which it is not. its a lengthy process and only yeilds a small amount of glucose.
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instead u quote "google" and think u know it all
i must be one hell of a google machine to get all this stuff from there in the amount of time that i am doing this, huh ?
hahhahha
mike just because YOU are mentally retarded doesnt mean everyone is
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Candy-ass.....The 19 year old 150lb. BBing guru.
Only on Getbig.
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candizzle....
seriously bro, just stop
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Candy-ass.....The 19 year old 150lb. BBing guru.
Only on Getbig.
candidizzle the 235 lb 19 year old who knows a very small amount of information
but to RETARDS seems like a guru, because they themselves dont know jacks hit
only on getbig
GROINK, the mid life crisis guy who posts pics of his average looking girlfriend in a desperate attempt to try to get attention
;D ;D ;D
TOO EASY
okay guys...especially van cause vans cool and i respect van.... post your thoughts id love to hear them... but i gotta go cook a couple meals and then head to work so ill be back later
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I don't think that much protein is needed.
I made my best gains by eating a fairly high protein diet, but less than what I ate before. Only difference was that I ate more carbs. I find carbs to be just as benefitial, and every protein meal I eat contains carbs like rice, or oats. This has kept me leaner, but has also lead to my best gains. My metabolism is decent so I don't get fat even with plenty of carbs if I keep my calories in check.
I think even Blockhead said that much protein isn't needed.
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Just one of many artices I found:
Protein Won't Make You Fat: Myth #1
How many magazines have you read where they tell you to take in X grams of protein? How many times have you see .75g of protein per lb of bodyweight or 1g maybe 1.5 for the advanced athlete or better yet 2g for the guy who really wants to grow!
All of those calculations may or may not be correct but it depends on YOU!
FACT: The #1 protein mistake people make is: They ingest more then they need.
MYTH: Any excess won't be stored as fat so it doesn't matter.
That's right a formula needs some input to make it work for you. So here's how you can quickly and easily figure out how much protein you need. Keep in mind that protein has calories. And while it's true that protein isn't as easily stored as fat there still remains the truth that your body only needs so many extra calories to grow.
Any excess just don't disappear.
It gets stored. As fat.
And that can and will include protein.
Ingesting 10x more then you need will not make your muscles any larger but it might add to your abdominal area in a way you wish it didn't. So figure out how much protein you need and eliminate the excess calories that can potentially just turn into fat storage.
Protein Calculation Formula:
The secret to figuring out how much protein you need is not by just taking some number you found like 30g and apply it to yourself. If everybody had the same needs we would all be the same. And we both know that just isn't true. Each person is slightly different.
Let me explain. We've all heard that a person can only digest 25-30g of protein in one sitting. B.S.!
Just think about it. Does an IFBB professional bodybuilder intake the same amount of protein as the guy who's 135 lbs just starting out? Even if there is a 200 lb weight difference?
The answer might shock you. NO
Needless to say, so many people just take some number, multiply that by their body weight and that's what they think they need a day. Tell me, if a person is 35% body fat, should they use their weight or their lean weight to figure out how much protein they need?
Simple. Lean weight. Your daily protein requirements are based on your lean body weight. And how do you figure out your lean body weight?
Use the skin fold caliper home test. Go back to Question #2.
Step 1:
Take your body weight in pounds
Example: 194 lbs
Step 2:
Find your body fat % using one of the methods in Question #2
Example: 15.7% (which is .157 for the step below)
Step 3:
Take your body weight in pounds and subtract the % body fat
Example: 194 lbs - (194 x .157 = 30.45 lbs of fat) = 163.54 lbs of lean body weight
Step 4:
Take your lean body weight and multiply by 1.14
Example: 163.54 lbs x 1.14 = 186.4g of protein a day
Step 5:
Divide your daily protein requirements by 5-6 meals and that is what your protein target is for each meal.
Example: 186.4/6 meals = 31.07g of protein per meal
As you will see, a person who is 286 lbs of lean body weight will require a lot more protein. And a person who is 286 lbs should not be consuming the same amount of protein if their percentage of body fat is 35%.
But why use 1.14 for protein requirements?
The RDA recommends .75g of protein. But that's been shown to be too low for active athletes.
Some sites will recommend 2.0g of protein. But that seems a bit high and your body will have trouble absorbing that not to mention you will probably have a lot of excess calories which can lead to fat gains.
1.14-1.5 is the most efficient range for most active, healthy adults. This range will help build muscle but not lead you into a high protein diet. Feel free to adjust within that range if you feel you need more protein.
Myth Busted!
Excess protein might not be bad for you but it's still excess calories and it doesn't just go away. It gets stored. So if you've ever heard that protein can't be stored as fat, that's simply not true.
Yours for Continued Success,
Marc David
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candidizzle the 235 lb 19 year old who knows a very small amount of information
but to RETARDS seems like a guru, because they themselves dont know jacks hit
only on getbig
GROINK, the mid life crisis guy who posts pics of his average looking girlfriend in a desperate attempt to try to get attention
;D ;D ;D
TOO EASY
okay guys...especially van cause vans cool and i respect van.... post your thoughts id love to hear them... but i gotta go cook a couple meals and then head to work so ill be back later
235?.....235 what? ounces?
I would expect you to not be impressed with my woman.......she's not a baboon with nostrils you can stick a quarter in 8)
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through what mechanims would protei have to go through to be stored as fat ? tunred into carbs, sure..(and its debateable whether ro not youll have have that happen unless you have a gluose demand that isnt being met by glucose itself), and then once turned into glucose it must by excesse glucose, you must have packed glycogen stores, and then it can be stored as fat. i order for it to be excesse glucose, amino acids turn over rate into glucose would have to be very quick. which it is not. its a lengthy process and only yeilds a small amount of glucose.
Protein wouldn't be converted to fat in any normal setting. It would have to be converted to carbs first and then de novo lipogenesis would have to occur. Which I said doesn't happen to a large degree. What happens is that lipolysis stops and any fat you take in through the diet is deposited since carbs supply energy. The end result is the same = fat gain. Everyone knows gorging on carbs makes you fat but it isn't because the carbs themselves are converted to fat.
Single amino acids aren't carb free either. They contain the approx. 4 calories/gram that protein does. Supplements containing singular aminos don't list calorie count because for some reason the FDA only requires it for complete proteins. They aren't energy free.
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Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.
Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder).
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Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.
Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder).
Yup, but you still have 75 calories for every 100 calories of protein that can cause fat gain, if not used for building muscle etc, if eating above maintenance. I'm sure some could read your last sentence and think eating protein is like walking on the treadmill. :D
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You CAN store protein as fat. It is a more complex process, but it is possible and will only happen when your total caloric intake (from carbs and/or fat) is already above maintenance level.
To do it your body must:
1. Breakdown the ingested protein into amino acids (which happens every time you eat protein anyway).
2. Convert those amino acids into glucose (simple sugar) in the liver via a process called gluconeogenesis (it means creating new glucose).
3. The body can then convert glucose into fatty acids.
4. Finally those fatty acids can be stored into the adipocytes (fat cells).
Quite a long biochemical process, but it is possible. When is it likely to happen?
- When intramuscular and intrahepatic glycogen stores are full (they can contain anywhere from 300 to 600g og glycogen depending on the size of the individual) AND that protein needs are completely fulfilled.
When that happens the body cannot store the extra protein because the only storage places for protein is the muscle tissue/organs (and other structures), which cannot be rebuilt faster than a certain rate limited by your own natural biochemistry, and the free amino acid pool which can contain around 200g of protein at any given time.
When those stores are full the body has to either oxidize the amino acids (burn them as fuel) or preferably convert the amino acids into glucose for energy or storage.
When that happens, if your glycogen stores are full and that you are not burning the extra glucose from protein, it will be stored as fat.
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Hey it's Christian Thibadeau
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Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.
Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder).
Really? You spread that one hour cardio session throughout the entire waking day Dante? That's effective?
The thermogenic effect of consuming that amount of protein would be the equivalent of walking to the kitchen and getting it. ::)
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excess calories (no matter where they come from) are or can be stored as fat
hope this helps genius
Gluconeogenesis?
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And (I have no idea why Im talking about this on this board, because it pretty much is bash away regardless of what is said) what if you looked at this from another view point instead of "cant"
What if you did create a demand that required the supply?
What if you did add key fat burning supplements like green tea/7-keto Dhea/caffiene etc etc etc that dramatically raised the metabolism over what it normally is?
What if you did do cardio regularly to become a musclebuilding fat burning furnace and it was possible to overreach with the nutrition end of things.....so you wouldnt be stuck in this "a little bit over BMR" bullshit?
My guys are gaining 15, 20, 25 pounds on their onstage bodyweights and it sure as hell isnt because i believe that bodybuilding is about eating along the lines of Joe regular who wants to keep in shape at 190lbs and a little bit over the BMR. Sorry but that doesnt make a gigantic bodybuilder muscularly. Extremes do. And with that way of doing things (getting to point b from point a the quickest) you have to shore up the detrimental sides of things (fat gain, any bad blood lipid results, dehydration) responsibly. It really isnt a hard concept unless you paint a little box around you and are unable to think outside of it.
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Gluconeogenesis?
Gluconeogenesis is a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates such as pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.
The vast majority of gluconeogenesis takes place in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
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What if you did create a demand that required the supply?
What if you did add key fat burning supplements like green tea/7-keto Dhea/caffiene etc etc etc that dramatically raised the metabolism over what it normally is?
What if you did do cardio regularly to become a musclebuilding fat burning furnace and it was possible to overreach with the nutrition end of things.....so you wouldnt be stuck in this "a little bit over BMR" bullshit?
Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.
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235?.....235 what? ounces?
I would expect you to not be impressed with my woman.......she's not a baboon with nostrils you can stick a quarter in 8)
keep in mind he's been on steroids for a while now. no, i'm not kidding.
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Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.
Already have answered this too many times to count so im just going to cut and paste my last answer to this.
I can only control who I personally train....and thats why i dont talk much about specifics of diet at all. I typed this last month after someone asked me about separating fats and carbs.
It is a basic way i can put out a "generalized" cookie cutter diet (which everyone always wants from me) to everyone. Alot of people dont know about glycemic index's and such....so I try to give the "masses" a simple approach to eating big (and not getting fat) for the people who really dont want to get down to "the nitty gritty" of it all. Some of you guys are learned.....alot of people arent and think a protein is a protein and a carb is a carb regardless of the food. They want it simple and dont want to learn the inside guts of why and when.
Do I use some fats with carbs in the people I train personally? yes
Is it a good generalized rule to follow on a grand scale so Johnny in Idaho who reads me and Frankie from Alabama who reads me both dont get fat? (even though they are both entirely different bodybuilders on a genetics and mesomorphic scale) ...yes
I admire Palumbo in that he can put a "cookie cutter diet" out there....I cannot do that...I would feel irresponsible and feel that its not working for 100% of the people reading me across the board.....he sets up some good ground rules though and I respect him greatly for it. Personally it bothers me if I put something up and its helping a guy 175lbs get to 225 but its making some endomorphic guy who is an overweight 240 get even fatter.....I cant sign off on a post knowing that. So you really dont see me say much in the way of detail unless i know the individual who is reading it exactly.
So what did i do for a solution? A basic simple outline for the 1000's of different people who might be reading a post by me. I cannot go thru them individually. Said to someone else not you Van: So since your the guy with all the answers feel free to put up a diet for the masses....one that will have your name attached to it for the next 10 years and will be cut and pasted everywhere on different bodybuilding boards. Knowing that some obese guy weighing 340 who has type 2 diabetes will be reading it and some Stickboy weighing 145lbs who cant put on weight no matter what he does will be reading it.......go right ahead and be my guest.....lets see the official Sporto diet that will work for everyone universally.
Alot of people dont want to learn the in's and out's of something they just want to be told what to do. You can do that with training pretty much. Its virtually impossible to do that with diets unless you know the specifics of that particular person (and I personally refuse to put a detailed cookie cutter program out there to the masses in which i know is not going to work 100% of the time). For anyone I dont personally train, the responsibility is on them to figure out their diets.
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keep in mind he's been on steroids for a while now. no, i'm not kidding.
yea we know.
A few years now all drugs and bloat his mommy finds out and he's gonna shrink so fast it'll be like a pin stuck in a ballon.
pop goes the cageekzle!!
Little b*tch. :D
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Candid is melting all over the place - must be burning calories like a proteinpowered jet-engine.
Some good ideas here.
Q for Candid:
How many grams of protein do you take in daily?
Will you try to eat yourself up to 600g a day?
Does anybody know how JayCutler is able to eat so much food (10 meals ala 1000kkals) and still be lean.... how can he burn 10000kkals a day???
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Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.
it simply makes people eat less food. simple as that.
as for dante: you dont need to defend everything you written on every board. some of us actually understand that things change and you learn new things as the years go by. so relax dante and dont waste your energy on defending you "system" on every board. just let it go.
and for candizzle, ::)
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OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
FUCKING MORON
Protein is broken down to its amino acids during digestion. Any amino acids that are not needed for various forms of protein synthesis, neurotransmitter synthesis, peptide hormones, etc., etc. are converted to glucose.
The insulin will sense the rise in blood glucose and begin producing insulin in a level commensurate with the blood sugar level.
The insulin will activate an enzyme called acetyl-CoA carboxylase. There are acetyl-CoA carboxylase I and II.
Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase will form malonyl-CoA. Malonyl-CoA is necessary for fat synthesis. Malonyl CoA is like the routing director for fat to the mitochondria.
When ACoA Carboxylase is lowered, malonyl-Coa production is lowered, increasing fatty acid transfer to the mitochondria for fat burning.
When malonyl CoA is elevated, it increases the production of fatty acids.
So, protein is converted to glucose, which is then converted to pyruvate, which is converted to Acetyl-CoA. If the glucose level exceeds the needs for energy through Kreb's, and exceeds the need for glycogen synthesis, it will be converted to fatty acids by the process shown above.
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justin harris show me something that shows me that protein is converted into glucose at any kind of rate tha would result in excess glucose.
in fact, show me that gluconeogensis is dependant on the presence of amino acids and NOT the abcense of glucose
like ketosis, im mst certain that the process occurs with the abcense of glucose, NOT the presence of amino acids(gluconeogensis), or fats (ketosis)
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Protein is broken down to its amino acids during digestion. Any amino acids that are not needed for various forms of protein synthesis, neurotransmitter synthesis, peptide hormones, etc., etc. are converted to glucose.
The insulin will sense the rise in blood glucose and begin producing insulin in a level commensurate with the blood sugar level.
The insulin will activate an enzyme called acetyl-CoA carboxylase. There are acetyl-CoA carboxylase I and II.
Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase will form malonyl-CoA. Malonyl-CoA is necessary for fat synthesis. Malonyl CoA is like the routing director for fat to the mitochondria.
When ACoA Carboxylase is lowered, malonyl-Coa production is lowered, increasing fatty acid transfer to the mitochondria for fat burning.
When malonyl CoA is elevated, it increases the production of fatty acids.
So, protein is converted to glucose, which is then converted to pyruvate, which is converted to Acetyl-CoA. If the glucose level exceeds the needs for energy through Kreb's, and exceeds the need for glycogen synthesis, it will be converted to fatty acids by the process shown above.
In layman's terms, excess protein can lead to fat gain. ::)
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KE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
^^^^^
the above is the argument
protein wont make you fat
as for the theoritical ability for ingested amino acids to go through the processes leading to some fat storage, THAT WAS NOT THE ARGUMENT
but, i will argue that that process is purely hypothetical. and gluconeogensis is depndant on lack of glucose not presence of amino acids
howver i could be wrong and im waiting for some kind of study from the EXPERTS :D
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in fact, show me that gluconeogensis is dependant on the presence of amino acids and NOT the abcense of glucose
once you can prove this, then prove that the process (gluconeogenesis) occurs at such a rate where a sedentary person would have a glucose demand that is slower than that turn over...
and alos you gotta take into account that the turn over rate of amino acids to glucose is 2=1
so lets say, hypothetically, youve got 20 grams excess amino's. all of that is converted into glucose. you only have 10 grams glucose.
and that is a slow process too !!
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Protein is broken down to its amino acids during digestion. Any amino acids that are not needed for various forms of protein synthesis, neurotransmitter synthesis, peptide hormones, etc., etc. are converted to glucose.
The insulin will sense the rise in blood glucose and begin producing insulin in a level commensurate with the blood sugar level.
The insulin will activate an enzyme called acetyl-CoA carboxylase. There are acetyl-CoA carboxylase I and II.
Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase will form malonyl-CoA. Malonyl-CoA is necessary for fat synthesis. Malonyl CoA is like the routing director for fat to the mitochondria.
When ACoA Carboxylase is lowered, malonyl-Coa production is lowered, increasing fatty acid transfer to the mitochondria for fat burning.
When malonyl CoA is elevated, it increases the production of fatty acids.
So, protein is converted to glucose, which is then converted to pyruvate, which is converted to Acetyl-CoA. If the glucose level exceeds the needs for energy through Kreb's, and exceeds the need for glycogen synthesis, it will be converted to fatty acids by the process shown above.
Exactly what I said!! :)
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[quote =wes link=topic=217538.msg3024314#msg3024314 date=1212448638]
Exactly what I said!! :)
[/quote] shut your mouth grown men are talking :D
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yea we know.
A few years now all drugs and bloat his mommy finds out and he's gonna shrink so fast it'll be like a pin stuck in a ballon.
pop goes the cageekzle!!
Little b*tch. :D
i like the kid's dedication, but he's got a mouth and an attitude that just don't match his accomplishments.
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Haha. Candi, you've been given the ten-count; you're out on your feet. :D
/someone thrown in the towel
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Haha. Candi, you've been given the ten-count; you're out on your feet. :D
/someone thrown in the towel
shut your punk ass up
in fact, show me that gluconeogensis is dependant on the presence of amino acids and NOT the abcense of glucose
once you can prove this, then prove that the process (gluconeogenesis) occurs at such a rate where a sedentary person would have a glucose demand that is slower than that turn over...
and alos you gotta take into account that the turn over rate of amino acids to glucose is 2=1
so lets say, hypothetically, youve got 20 grams excess amino's. all of that is converted into glucose. you only have 10 grams glucose.
and that is a slow process too !!
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shut your punk ass up
Just what is your damage? ::)
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it's a grudge match!
in one corner, a man with a list of satisfied clients a mile long, training and giving nutrition help to everyone from casual gym-goers to IFBB professionals, training and nutrition guru.... DANTE!!
his opponent, too young to legally buy alcohol, started using steroids weighing less than 200 pounds, he's never used his theories with any palpable results... CANDIDIZZLE!!
all right, boys, let's keep this a clean fight. GO!
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it's a grudge match!
DANTE!!
his opponent,CANDIDIZZLE!!
all right, boys, let's keep this a clean fight. GO!
ummm dante would not be any kind of opponent of mine
in fact if anything on thi issue he wouldbe on my side.. protein wont make you fat, and people eat too little of it
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ummm dante would not be any kind of opponent of mine
in fact if anything on thi issue he wouldbe on my side.. protein wont make you fat, and people eat too little of it
Answer my questions >:(
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Candid is melting all over the place - must be burning calories like a proteinpowered jet-engine.
Some good ideas here.
Q for Candid:
How many grams of protein do you take in daily? no idea... about as much as i can get really.. about 75-125 g per meal, eat every 3 hours or so
Will you try to eat yourself up to 600g a day? somedays i might be over some days i might be under
Does anybody know how JayCutler is able to eat so much food (10 meals ala 1000kkals) and still be lean.... how can he burn 10000kkals a day??? jay cutler is HUGE, for one, and jay cutler take a whole lot of GH
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lol
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lol
whic part was funny
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i like the kid's dedication, but he's got a mouth and an attitude that just don't match his accomplishments.
pretty much spot on-he'll never amount to anything other than destruction of himself.... :-\ unfortunately...
I may just call his mommy or grandpappy and ask them if they know what their baby boy candy is doing all day on the internet and to check him for those dirty steroids... :-*
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pretty much spot on-he'll never amount to anything other than destruction of himself.... :-\ unfortunately...
I may just call his mommy or grandpappy and ask them if they know what their baby boy candy is doing all day on the internet and to check him for those dirty steroids... :-*
go ahead broski
why wouldnt my family know?
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ummm dante would not be any kind of opponent of mine
in fact if anything on thi issue he wouldbe on my side.. protein wont make you fat, and people eat too little of it
dante wouldn't have anything to do with an ass monkey like you... :-X
god you are pathetic....
Portrati of CANDIDATE DIZZLE:
chubby lil bloated insecure 19 year old uglee monkee looking virgin....sits around rubbing out protein from his dick and drinking his own piss because he read somewhere on the internet that you lose 20% of orals in your urine so he drinks his own piss
nastee little cuss...
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jason your so cute :-*
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Thanks for your insight Candid.
Do you think Trey Brewer is a victim of the bulk-up mentality?
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Thanks for your insight Candid.
Do you think Trey Brewer is a victim of the bulk-up mentality?
trey brewer is a victim of stupidity. ;D
looking at what he says he eats off season the dude eats like twice the carbs jay cutler does
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candidickle hasn't posted a pic in months.
chances are, he's a fat waterlogged mess now.
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candidickle hasn't posted a pic in months.
chances are, he's a fat waterlogged skinny mess now.
:D
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candidickle hasn't posted a pic in months.
chances are, he's a fat waterlogged mess now.
Pretty dirty tactics to ask for a picture >:(
Candid beware: Mr. Cortisol wants to take advantage of your epic subconscious thirst to seek approval.
Don't fall for his pulling an Uri Geller on you!
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candidickle hasn't posted a pic in months.
chances are, he's a fat waterlogged mess now.
pretty much...
he's still a piglet though... :-* sad little fat bloated fk... :-[
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CUM GLAZED EYES
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KE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS
AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT
^^^^^
the above is the argument
protein wont make you fat
as for the theoritical ability for ingested amino acids to go through the processes leading to some fat storage, THAT WAS NOT THE ARGUMENT
but, i will argue that that process is purely hypothetical. and gluconeogensis is depndant on lack of glucose not presence of amino acids
howver i could be wrong and im waiting for some kind of study from the EXPERTS :D
All calorie is, is a measure of heat. It is the amount of energy required to raise 1g of water 1 degree celcius. The "calories" we measure are Calories or Kilo-calories.
Excess ingested calories are extra energy. Ingest an amount of energy above and beyond what your body exerts during that time period, and the excess energy has to be stored.
It can be stored through synthesis of new proteins, glycogen, or fat.
I don't think people realize how little of the protein we ingest is converted to muscle mass. VERY, VERY few grams per day at best.
If you can convert 20g of ingested protein to new muscle each day, you can expect to add over 320 pounds of pure muscle mass by the time you're 38 years old. If you're 180lbs now, you would be 500lbs of shredded beef at age 38.
500lbs of muscle mass at age 38 from ONLY 20g of protein synthesis a day. If you're eating 600g of protein a day, what do you think the extra 580g are going to? (assuming you're adding pure muscle mass at the astronomical rate of 20g per day)
There are benefits to high protein diets, which Dante has listed here.
Protein has a high thermogenic nature. The digestion and utilization of protein burns up a decent amount of its total caloric content.
To be stored as fat, protein has to undergo a few biochemical processes which also cost energy.
The total process of human digestion involves many processes. While it would be wonderful if it were much more simple, it isn't.
There are ways to increase caloric intake without increasing fat storage.
One method is to alter macronutrient levels by the day. If you increase your intake of protein and specific fatty acids on days that you decrease carbohydrate intake, you can take advantage of the thermogenic nature of protein digestion as well as the thermogenic benefits of certain fatty acids (gamma linolenic acid is one I've written about)
The resulting glycogen depletion allows for a period of higher carbohydrate intake where excess energy (in the form of blood glucose) can be stored as muscle glycogen instead of being stored as fat.
Once the body exhausts its ability to store glycogen, fat storage will return.
This is the basic concept behind our carb cycling approach at Troponin Nutrition.
There is absolutely no need to produce a study. Any physiology, biochem, exercise physiology, biology, or nutrition text book will explain this process in the metabolism section(s).
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once you can prove this, then prove that the process (gluconeogenesis) occurs at such a rate where a sedentary person would have a glucose demand that is slower than that turn over...
and alos you gotta take into account that the turn over rate of amino acids to glucose is 2=1
so lets say, hypothetically, youve got 20 grams excess amino's. all of that is converted into glucose. you only have 10 grams glucose.
and that is a slow process too !!
stop talking to yourself.
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The thing I find so amusing about these high-protein/low-protein arguments is that people mention "high fat" without ever explaining what that means...
Most armchair-expert bodybuilders (candidizzle, Adonis etc etc) can quote you chapter and verse on the benefits and drawbacks of every conceivable carb source and all known proteins, yet nowhere do I see any discussion of fat/lipid sources.
From my own experience I have found that the three macronutients can be somewhat successfully decoupled from each other. You can (to some extent) treat carbs proteins and fats as separate requirements... once quality protein is eaten in excess in conjunction with quality fats/lipids in excess then it is actually possible to restrict carbs sufficiently to cause a loss of bodyfat without hindering muscle growth.
I've repeatedly seen natural bodybuilders lose fat while simultaneously gaining muscle by doing just that... eating good quality proteins and balanced quality fats in excess while strictly rationing carbohydrates.
Calorie totals aren't really as important as macronutrient profiles beyond a certain point as there is a huge difference between the efficiency of a high carb metabolism versus that of a high protein/fat metabolism.
The Luke
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I don't think people realize how little of the protein we ingest is converted to muscle mass. VERY, VERY few grams per day at best.
There are benefits to high protein diets, which Dante has listed here.
Protein has a high thermogenic nature. The digestion and utilization of protein burns up a decent amount of its total caloric content.
To be stored as fat, protein has to undergo a few biochemical processes which also cost energy.
So the thermo effect is only useful if you eat low carbs and fat, otherwise you'll be overeating. ..and that is stupid because you'll be suffering eating like that when you can eat a balanced diet and still be getting enough protein.
Candidate, do you realize that many of the posters here have actually used High protein Diets? I think they would know if they lead to fat gain or not.
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I never thought I'd say this, but damn Squadfather is needed here to shut this little bottomtwink bitch up!!
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I never thought I'd say this, but damn Squadfather is needed here to shut this little bottomtwink bitch up!!
he's around. recently went on a little flaming spree on my youtube channel. ::)
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The thing I find so amusing about these high-protein/low-protein arguments is that people mention "high fat" without ever explaining what that means...
Most armchair-expert bodybuilders (candidizzle, Adonis etc etc) can quote you chapter and verse on the benefits and drawbacks of every conceivable carb source and all known proteins, yet nowhere do I see any discussion of fat/lipid sources.
From my own experience I have found that the three macronutients can be somewhat successfully decoupled from each other. You can (to some extent) treat carbs proteins and fats as separate requirements... once quality protein is eaten in excess in conjunction with quality fats/lipids in excess then it is actually possible to restrict carbs sufficiently to cause a loss of bodyfat without hindering muscle growth.
I've repeatedly seen natural bodybuilders lose fat while simultaneously gaining muscle by doing just that... eating good quality proteins and balanced quality fats in excess while strictly rationing carbohydrates.
Calorie totals aren't really as important as macronutrient profiles beyond a certain point as there is a huge difference between the efficiency of a high carb metabolism versus that of a high protein/fat metabolism.
The Luke
dude im in 100% agreement with what your saying here and ive noticed the exact same thing
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All calorie is, is a measure of heat. It is the amount of energy required to raise 1g of water 1 degree celcius. The "calories" we measure are Calories or Kilo-calories.
Excess ingested calories are extra energy. Ingest an amount of energy above and beyond what your body exerts during that time period, and the excess energy has to be stored.
It can be stored through synthesis of new proteins, glycogen, or fat.
I don't think people realize how little of the protein we ingest is converted to muscle mass. VERY, VERY few grams per day at best.
If you can convert 20g of ingested protein to new muscle each day, you can expect to add over 320 pounds of pure muscle mass by the time you're 38 years old. If you're 180lbs now, you would be 500lbs of shredded beef at age 38.
500lbs of muscle mass at age 38 from ONLY 20g of protein synthesis a day. If you're eating 600g of protein a day, what do you think the extra 580g are going to? (assuming you're adding pure muscle mass at the astronomical rate of 20g per day)
There are benefits to high protein diets, which Dante has listed here.
Protein has a high thermogenic nature. The digestion and utilization of protein burns up a decent amount of its total caloric content.
To be stored as fat, protein has to undergo a few biochemical processes which also cost energy.
The total process of human digestion involves many processes. While it would be wonderful if it were much more simple, it isn't.
There are ways to increase caloric intake without increasing fat storage.
One method is to alter macronutrient levels by the day. If you increase your intake of protein and specific fatty acids on days that you decrease carbohydrate intake, you can take advantage of the thermogenic nature of protein digestion as well as the thermogenic benefits of certain fatty acids (gamma linolenic acid is one I've written about)
The resulting glycogen depletion allows for a period of higher carbohydrate intake where excess energy (in the form of blood glucose) can be stored as muscle glycogen instead of being stored as fat.
Once the body exhausts its ability to store glycogen, fat storage will return.
This is the basic concept behind our carb cycling approach at Troponin Nutrition.
There is absolutely no need to produce a study. Any physiology, biochem, exercise physiology, biology, or nutrition text book will explain this process in the metabolism section(s).
thanks for saying absolutely NOTHING :D
and oh yeah, degree or no degree, your a moron if you think weight in muscle added=grams of protein utilized.... hahaha... ... again.. "hahaha".. justin didnt you go to school for this ?? your ignorance is amazing
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so what do you think happens to the protein not utilized Candidate?
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thanks for saying absolutely NOTHING :D
and oh yeah, degree or no degree, your a moron if you think weight in muscle added=grams of protein utilized.... hahaha... ... again.. "hahaha".. justin didnt you go to school for this ?? your ignorance is amazing
way to read that entire post and, rather than responding to any of it point by point, just picking on one thing and trying to blow that apart. ::)
candi, would you please, for once in your life, just admit you're in over your head and talking to someone smarter than you? this is why you have a rep around here, you refuse to admit that you're getting schooled when EVERYONE realizes it except you. please, just back down. i promise you that, if anything, we'll think MORE of you for doing so, not less. humility earns more respect than misguided ego.
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way to read that entire post and, rather than responding to any of it point by point, just picking on one thing and trying to blow that apart. ::)
candi, would you please, for once in your life, just admit you're in over your head and talking to someone smarter than you? this is why you have a rep around here, you refuse to admit that you're getting schooled when EVERYONE realizes it except you. please, just back down. i promise you that, if anything, we'll think MORE of you for doing so, not less. humility earns more respect than misguided ego.
magoo my aunt died today from hyperglycemia because she ate too much protein. >:(
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so what do you think happens to the protein not utilized Candidate?
is it theoretically possible for protein to contribute to adipose? duuuhhhhhh LOL.. i m most sure i could find popstst of mine from waayyyyyy back outlining what wonder boy JH here has said ... the theoretical pathway..
BUT
what i said was "protien will not MAKE YOU FAT"..
and he just admitted that in his post when he said going high protein was the one way to grow without adding fat.
"boooooom"
protein wont "make you fat"
thats not even debatble
the one point no one has yet answered is, is that whether or not the process of gluconeogenesis is dependant on the availability of amino acids or on the lack of glucose !
answe me that
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way to read that entire post and, rather than responding to any of it point by point, just picking on one thing and trying to blow that apart. ::)
candi, would you please, for once in your life, just admit you're in over your head and talking to someone smarter than you? this is why you have a rep around here, you refuse to admit that you're getting schooled when EVERYONE realizes it except you. please, just back down. i promise you that, if anything, we'll think MORE of you for doing so, not less. humility earns more respect than misguided ego.
Candizzle is a paper tiger.
He thinks he knows some shit because he read it somewhere. What he doesn't realize is that for every study that says A, there is one that says B.
Also factor in that every person's genetics and metabolism are different. It's kind of comical that someone is arrogant enough to think they have the answer when the answer varies,depending on the individual
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Candizzle is a paper tiger.
He thinks he knows some shit because he read it somewhere. What he doesn't realize is that for every study that says A, there is one that says B.
Also factor in that every person's genetics and metabolism are different. It's kind of comical that someone is arrogant enough to think they have the answer when the answer varies,depending on the individual
groink post some more pictures of that woman who looks like about a 6 and try to get some more attention you middle aged fuck
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groink post some more pictures of that woman who looks like about a 6 and try to get some more attention you middle aged fuck
Post a picture of a better looking woman that you actually know, never mind sleep with. I'll wait.
PS my arms are bigger than your legs
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Post a picture of a better looking woman that you actually know, never mind sleep with. I'll wait.
groink dont be a fool
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hahha
epic edit
if by "arms" you mean penis, and by "bigger" you mean smaller, and by "legs" you also mean penis.... SURE ;D
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Candizzle is a paper tiger.
He thinks he knows some shit because he read it somewhere. What he doesn't realize is that for every study that says A, there is one that says B.
Also factor in that every person's genetics and metabolism are different. It's kind of comical that someone is arrogant enough to think they have the answer when the answer varies,depending on the individual
are you suggesting that candi is a Google Warrior, who masks a complete lack of real-world knowledge with a mildly impressive ability to dredge up various articles from the internet?
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groink dont be a fool
Please....make a fool of me "playa"
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are you suggesting that candi is a Google Warrior, who masks a complete lack of real-world knowledge with a mildly impressive ability to dredge up various articles from the internet?
i must be one hell of a google artists huh
magoo why dont you preach some of you training theories out here in the open on the g&o.... ;D
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thanks for saying absolutely NOTHING :D
and oh yeah, degree or no degree, your a moron if you think weight in muscle added=grams of protein utilized.... hahaha... ... again.. "hahaha".. justin didnt you go to school for this ?? your ignorance is amazing
What do you believe contractile tissue comes from?
I've said my point. I've said nothing with any ambiguity here. I don't post my claims or beliefs. I'm a definite fan of science and proponent of the scientific method. I don't get into arguments because I don't make statements that can be argued.
I stated the general biochemical basis by which dietary protein can be converted to fatty acids and subsequently stored as fat.
You can choose to believe something else, that's fine.
To avoid confusion, I stated physiologic facts regarding the process of fat storage from protein ingestion.
One of the greatest scientists of all time once said that there is a difference between knowing the name of something, and knowing something.
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Please....make a fool of me "playa"
you didnt just read that piece of comedic gold that i wrote?
how about you post a picture of that woman and then i will laugh at you for thinking you have got "mad game" or whatever you call it.. picking up middle aged women..
hahha... sad part is... you admitted in the open that you asked her for pics to jack off to, and what she sent you was fully clothed pics that showed jack shit. hahahhaha. epic denial ! ;D
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I don't get into arguments because I don't make statements that can be argued.
One of the greatest scientists of all time once said that there is a difference between knowing the name of something, and knowing something.
SLAMMED.
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One of the greatest scientists of all time once said that there is a difference between knowing the name of something, and knowing something.
first of all, dont quote me on something i didnt say . when did you hear me say this ??
hahhaha
but in all seriousness. im glad you understand that your knowledge of the nam,es of acetyl coa and all that garbage doesnt mean you actually have any kind of understanding of anything
:D
justin harris you know i love you and all yoru waxy maize garbage.... dont be hatin
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candi, you claim to be, so far: a training expert, a nutrition expert, a steroid expert, and the best-built teenager on the board who looks better than people who've been training far longer than you.
this leaves us with one question: when are you doing a show? with your unbeatable knowledge and apparently stellar genetics, you can't lose.
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you didnt just read that piece of comedic gold that i wrote?
how about you post a picture of that woman and then i will laugh at you for thinking you have got "mad game" or whatever you call it.. picking up middle aged women..
hahha... sad part is... you admitted in the open that you asked her for pics to jack off to, and what she sent you was fully clothed pics that showed jack shit. hahahhaha. epic denial ! ;D
That's the pic I posted genius ;)
Again.....show us all your stable pimp.
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candi, you claim to be, so far: a training expert nope. what i claimed is that ou are the opposite of one ! in fact i ask people here for advice all the time, a nutrition expert nope, what i am saying is something very basic... im no kind of expert at all. i dont know those fancy names like acetyl coa :D and i ask certain people here for advice all the time, a steroid expert nope. i ask certain people here for advice all the time ! if a basic understandinig of the most popular compounds = expert,,,, then you my friend have some studying to do , and the best-built teenager on the board who looks better than people who've been training far longer than you ive said multiple times i look like complete garbage !! best built teenager ? LOL, seen stavy's pics ? .
this leaves us with one question: when are you doing a show? with your unbeatable knowledge and apparently stellar genetics, you can't lose.
magoo your attempts are futile your dealing with a person who has no ego only an ambition to better themselves and destory thew false myths and rumors in an attempt to over come possibly the worst genetics known to man kind :D
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The thing I find so amusing about these high-protein/low-protein arguments is that people mention "high fat" without ever explaining what that means...
Most armchair-expert bodybuilders (candidizzle, Adonis etc etc) can quote you chapter and verse on the benefits and drawbacks of every conceivable carb source and all known proteins, yet nowhere do I see any discussion of fat/lipid sources.
From my own experience I have found that the three macronutients can be somewhat successfully decoupled from each other. You can (to some extent) treat carbs proteins and fats as separate requirements... once quality protein is eaten in excess in conjunction with quality fats/lipids in excess then it is actually possible to restrict carbs sufficiently to cause a loss of bodyfat without hindering muscle growth.
I've repeatedly seen natural bodybuilders lose fat while simultaneously gaining muscle by doing just that... eating good quality proteins and balanced quality fats in excess while strictly rationing carbohydrates.
Calorie totals aren't really as important as macronutrient profiles beyond a certain point as there is a huge difference between the efficiency of a high carb metabolism versus that of a high protein/fat metabolism.
The Luke
pseudo bullshit. for sure the calorie is a calorie argument isnt 100% true , but its valid to a large extent. and you wont be losing fat and gaining muscle unless you are a complete newbie (can be done for a short time period sometimes) and/or on drugs. of course it depends on what you call simultaneously ; as you can cycle your calories in various ways...but strictly speaking you wont be gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. (even tho is theoretically possible).
the really high protien diets are only suitable for aas users, due to the systematically upgraded protien synthesis. for a natural id recommend 1 g protein/lbs bw/day..... up to 1.5...(on some diets).
wanna gain muscle? workout 3-4 days a week. focus on getting stronger. eat 1 g p/lbs bw/day...make sure you have a caloric surplus of 300-500 calories per day (and on average if you cycling your calories). other than that the exact macronutrient profile doesnt matter that much. dont be a fool and exclude carbs tho...as they fuel your workouts.
lets say your maintenance level is 3000 calories. your bw is 200 lbs.
eat 200g protein and a total of 3300-3500 calories per day or so. after that :the exact amounts of fats vs carbs arent that important as long as you get enough carbs to fuel your workouts. the carb vs fat ratio..depends on the individual. but in general dont matter that much unless you go to unecessary extremes.
( i have seen some idiots recommend bulking keto style... ::) )
problem with bodybuilders is that they take everything to the extreme: no fat or no carb, extreme protein etc etc etc.
i also suspect many who do DC training are overestemating their gains..and they are counting fat gain as muscle gain. sometimes because they so badly want it to be muscle and/or because they are in the "fat hiding interval"= 13-16%....a fat% interval where many people really dont notice they are gaining fat and think its all muscle...but bam..when they get up to 17-18%..they notice that alot more of the weight gain was in reality fat than they first believed.
and no im not saying DC training is a bad system. obviously worked on alot of people or it wouldnt be as talked about as it still is.
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YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMAN BODY IS ELEMENTARY AT BEST
"EXCESS CALORIES"
HAHAHHAHA
SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
BETTER WATCH OUT FOR THOSE CALORIES IN VEGETABLES, CALORIES IN OMEGA 3'S, CALORIES IN LEAN PROTEINS !!!
;D ;D ;D
KEEP COUNTING YOUR CALORIES MORONS
How dumb can a human being be?
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Dante is a tool.
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How dumb can a human being be?
yeah, i dont even bother reading his posts anymore. i hope for his sake that he is joking. ;D
basically every post he writes is completely backwards lol..but hey maybe thats the point.
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yeah, i dont even bother reading his posts anymore. i hope for his sake that he is joking. ;D
basically every post he writes is completely backwards lol..but hey maybe thats the point.
He would be a funny gimmick if it wouldn't be so obvious he means what he writes because he tends to melt down when someone tells him he's stupid.
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Dante is a tool.
far from it. the main "problem" is that alot of people over at intensemuscle lack the ability to think for themselves. its like some kinda sect over there.
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far from it. the main "problem" is that alot of people over at intensemuscle lack the ability to think for themselves. its like some kinda sect over there.
creepy.
The worst thing about intensemuscle is that the stickies are too good, and Dante's posts as well. The whole board is unnecessary because of that. A Blog with Dante's posts would be sufficient.
If someone posts a question it's either "read the sticky" or "let's wait for dante to answer it". ;D
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creepy.
The worst thing about intensemuscle is that the stickies are too good, and Dante's posts as well. The whole board is unnecessary because of that. A Blog with Dante's posts would be sufficient.
If someone posts a question it's either "read the sticky" or "let's wait for dante to answer it". ;D
yep. pretty much, and dante has removed many of the stickies. i have also noticed that DC training stickies have been removed on many other sites. i guess he got tired of people bastardizing his concept.
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yep. pretty much, and dante has removed many of the stickies. i have also noticed that DC training stickies have been removed on many other sites. i guess he got tired of people bastardizing his concept.
oh really?
removing the stickies was a dumb idea imo.
regarding the changement of DC: I think Dante's prayer that you need to follow his advice 100% (training AND nutrition) makes the weakest point in it. All in all, i liked the training a lot, but it was too much eating and too much cardio.
Plus, what has been said above: DC is about getting huge, but you sacrifice your lines for the sake of getting big. Most people only get fatter this way.
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oh really?
removing the stickies was a dumb idea imo.
regarding the changement of DC: I think Dante's prayer that you need to follow his advice 100% (training AND nutrition) makes the weakest point in it. All in all, i liked the training a lot, but it was too much eating and too much cardio.
Plus, what has been said above: DC is about getting huge, but you sacrifice your lines for the sake of getting big. Most people only get fatter this way.
thats why you should look at the fundamentals in every routine ( =why its so important to understand the 'basics') and go with the stuff that works and ignore the rest. same way with DC training.
the best things with DC training is:
focus on beating the log book
higher body part frequency than the usual once a week setups
focus on eating (good for those who dont eat enough and complain about not being able to gain muscle....flipside is that many get fat)
focus on basic exercises
gives people something to believe in (= consistancy...which is very important)
rest pause ( good way to gain strength)
teaches people to work hard in the gym (95% of people in gyms are lazy shits)
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I think you made my point for me slaveboy1980...
You assume that once protein requirements are met that carb/fat ratios are moot and that the fat profile itself is unimportant... and that's just plain wrong. In fact, it's the exact type of lipid ignorance that I was bemoaning.
Gaining muscle while losing bodyfat is very possible... I've seen it done many times (and to an extent that negates measurement error and in natural athletes): the requirement seems to be a huge excess of dietary fats and a roughly 2:1:1:1 omega3:omega6:omega9:saturates ratio.
This excess of lipid substrates and optimum protein intake (to the extent that further protein intake is oxidised without a concurrent effect on hormone profile) also allows a painless transition to ketosis (I've done it several times with no headaches; no tiredness; no nausea; no weakness and always in three or less days... and that's full ketosis that triggers a deep purple on a ketostick).
But, perhaps slaveboy1980 is right... just get enough protein and nothing else matters...
The Luke
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In a perfect world Slaveboy and Donkeykong, I would like to see you two have a slaveboy forum and donkeykong forum respectively......and in those forums, lets say you have 20 thousand people reading you (I know I.M. has much more than that, but lets use that number). I would like to see you come up with a universal diet that helps every single one of those guys from obese at 350lbs, to painfully skinny at 150lbs and everywhere in between. If you guys came up with a certified Slaveboy/Donkeykong diet do you think that it would help both Squadfather with his genetic makeup, Pandemonium with his genetic makeup, Candizzle with his genetic makeup and Chad Mower equally and universally?
Think about that for a second......not to easy is it? You would have skinny guys saying "the Slaveboy diet doesnt do jack for me I gained nothing" while maybe guys who were 28% bodyfat would say "the donkeykong diet might of worked for that 155lb guy but it made me even fatter"
I believe in the thermic effect of food. If you take the 3 components, its much harder to increase bodyfat with protein than the other 2 components.....along with it being an essential in gaining muscle mass. So I have recommended 1.5 to 2.0 grams of protein per pound for natural guys, and 2.0 to 2.5 per pound for enhanced guys.....knowing that 25% of those calories ingested as protein are going to be burned up thru digestion. The rest of that is up to the individual carbwise and fatwise to determine for himself if I am not helping him individually....I throw some guidelines out there but I sure as heck am not a miracle worker when I dont know who is reading me and only taking into account what he wants to take from that post. I am not responsible for fat guys who switch over to my way of doing things and stay fat guys. I tell those guys diet down to a proper offseason training bodyfat percentage first. Or guys who eat everything under the kitchen sink because they think "Im bulking no matter what"
So my question to both of you is this. Your job is to put out a universal detailed diet for (lets say) everyone reading Getbig today. Its great to critisize when your on the outside looking in but i want you to wear the shoes. Are you going to be able to help every single guy from 240 to Troponin, myself, Jaejonna, Ron, and on and on and on in this forum put on the most amount of muscle mass with no bodyfat gain whatsoever with your universal diet?
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Dante,
Just a quick question... why do you take the criticisms of these muppets to heart?
Most of those reading these threads simply disregard the worthless criticism of the morons who attempt to undermine properly researched theories with blatant (faulty) generalizations. (See above, for a prime example of slaveboy1980 attempting to do this with my contribution).
I understand your frustration, but there simply is no helping some people... there is a very good reason why 99% of all bodybuilders are currently on a plateau. Please don't for a second think that anyone with any intelligence reading this thread lends any credence to the diatribes of these morons... you don't need to defend yourself, not here.
The Luke
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In a perfect world Slaveboy and Donkeykong, I would like to see you two have a slaveboy forum and donkeykong forum respectively......and in those forums, lets say you have 20 thousand people reading you (I know I.M. has much more than that, but lets use that number). I would like to see you come up with a universal diet that helps every single one of those guys from obese at 350lbs, to painfully skinny at 150lbs and everywhere in between. If you guys came up with a certified Slaveboy/Donkeykong diet do you think that it would help both Squadfather with his genetic makeup, Pandemonium with his genetic makeup, Candizzle with his genetic makeup and Chad Mower equally and universally?
Think about that for a second......not to easy is it? You would have skinny guys saying "the Slaveboy diet doesnt do jack for me I gained nothing" while maybe guys who were 28% bodyfat would say "the donkeykong diet might of worked for that 155lb guy but it made me even fatter"
I believe in the thermic effect of food. If you take the 3 components, its much harder to increase bodyfat with protein than the other 2 components.....along with it being an essential in gaining muscle mass. So I have recommended 1.5 to 2.0 grams of protein per pound for natural guys, and 2.0 to 2.5 per pound for enhanced guys.....knowing that 25% of those calories ingested as protein are going to be burned up thru digestion. The rest of that is up to the individual carbwise and fatwise to determine for himself if I am not helping him individually....I throw some guidelines out there but I sure as heck am not a miracle worker when I dont know who is reading me and only taking into account what he wants to take from that post. I am not responsible for fat guys who switch over to my way of doing things and stay fat guys. I tell those guys diet down to a proper offseason training bodyfat percentage first. Or guys who eat everything under the kitchen sink because they think "Im bulking no matter what"
So my question to both of you is this. Your job is to put out a universal detailed diet for (lets say) everyone reading Getbig today. Its great to critisize when your on the outside looking in but i want you to wear the shoes. Are you going to be able to help every single guy from 240 to Troponin, myself, Jaejonna, Ron, and on and on and on in this forum put on the most amount of muscle mass with no bodyfat gain whatsoever with your universal diet?
3 grams test
dnp
10iu gh
any food they want
cardio
train
what do i get?
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3 grams testdnp
10iu ghany food they want
cardio
train
what do i get?
nuthin cause I won't do test, gh and especially dnp.....sorry :P
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cumnizzle is frighteningly beginning to act like adonis.
starts fat = check
loses some fat = check
takes steroids with no effect = check
bashes people with thousands of clients with his "knowledge" that has no scientific basis whatsoever = check
but....
adonis showed us his new pictures (too many if you ask me)
adonis did mr. getbig
adonis went away
we still need candisnizzle to do the last 3.
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Dante, thanks for your post. You obviously missed my point. Its impossible to find a diet that suits for everyone, because we all have a slightly different genetic setup. I appreciate your approach and i am glad that i tried it because it only worked partly for me. It was learning for me so i can use that. You cant really expect DC works perfectly for everyone on this planet.
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Dante,
Just a quick question... why do you take the criticisms of these muppets to heart?
I do and I dont Luke.....I really have a curiousity how they would answer that question. I have always thought the best way to understand the other side is for someone to walk a day in their shoes....so I honestly posed the question out of curiousity of their answers
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Dante, thanks for your post. You obviously missed my point. Its impossible to find a diet that suits for everyone, because we all have a slightly different genetic setup. I appreciate your approach and i am glad that i tried it because it only worked partly for me. It was learning for me so i can use that. You cant really expect DC works perfectly for everyone on this planet.
...geneticists all across the world would disagree.
There might be a couple of minor variations related to allergies (dairy, gluten etc)... but this genetic/metabolic uniqueness is nothing more than a persistent; pernicious FLEX magazine myth.
You are not a beautiful unique snowflake... you are not special... there is no perfect routine...
You will actually have to train hard, and your lack of progress is down to your own failings: accept it.
The Luke
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I think you made my point for me slaveboy1980...
You assume that once protein requirements are met that carb/fat ratios are moot and that the fat profile itself is unimportant... and that's just plain wrong. In fact, it's the exact type of lipid ignorance that I was bemoaning.
no, i said that there isnt one magic macronutrient ratio, and there is no reason to be obsessed about it as long as you eat enough protein and dont go to other extremes..which means you eat both carbs and fat ..
Gaining muscle while losing bodyfat is very possible... I've seen it done many times (and to an extent that negates measurement error and in natural athletes): the requirement seems to be a huge excess of dietary fats and a roughly 2:1:1:1 omega3:omega6:omega9:saturates ratio.
gaining muscle while loosing fat is theoretically possible, but wont happen in general if your not a newbie or using drugs. as for fats magically making it possibe thats bs
This excess of lipid substrates and optimum protein intake (to the extent that further protein intake is oxidised without a concurrent effect on hormone profile) also allows a painless transition to ketosis (I've done it several times with no headaches; no tiredness; no nausea; no weakness and always in three or less days... and that's full ketosis that triggers a deep purple on a ketostick).
ketosis? why would you want to be in ketosis when your trying to gain muscle..besides you probably wont be in ketosis if you eat huge amounts of protein...as much of it will be converted into glucose
But, perhaps slaveboy1980 is right... just get enough protein and nothing else matters...
no need to be an extremist and put words in my mouth. im simply saying get your protein, eat carbs and fat. and ingest a surplus of calories to grow. nothing new really
The Luke
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...geneticists all across the world would disagree.
There might be a couple of minor variations related to allergies (dairy, gluten etc)... but this genetic/metabolic uniqueness is nothing more than a persistent; pernicious FLEX magazine myth.
You are not a beautiful unique snowflake... you are not special... there is no perfect routine...
You will actually have to train hard, and your lack of progress is down to your own failings: accept it.
The Luke
luke i am beginning to like you
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what does dante/crapp look like? i saw bluto call him a fat fuck so is he ?
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what does dante/crapp look like? i saw bluto call him a fat fuck so is he ?
big but soft. white dude. he is always supposed to comepete but never does. i think hes one of those guys that never thinks hes good enogh. although i think if he dieted down he would do well.
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Dante,
Just a quick question... why do you take the criticisms of these muppets to heart?
Most of those reading these threads simply disregard the worthless criticism of the morons who attempt to undermine properly researched theories with blatant (faulty) generalizations. (See above, for a prime example of slaveboy1980 attempting to do this with my contribution).
The Luke
actually i have studied nutrition extensively, and in my opinion its you who is spouting psedo bs. other than that i dont really know what were are discussing right now, im not donkey kong and have no idea what his thoughts about nutrition are.
i do know that i see alot of people making this much more difficult than it need s to be. i see this fascination with zero carbs and high fat. constant talk about ketosis.
and finally, its obvious you dont read my posts and your lumping me together with other people inorder to simplify your argumentation.
-
In a perfect world Slaveboy and Donkeykong, I would like to see you two have a slaveboy forum and donkeykong forum respectively......and in those forums, lets say you have 20 thousand people reading you (I know I.M. has much more than that, but lets use that number). I would like to see you come up with a universal diet that helps every single one of those guys from obese at 350lbs, to painfully skinny at 150lbs and everywhere in between. If you guys came up with a certified Slaveboy/Donkeykong diet do you think that it would help both Squadfather with his genetic makeup, Pandemonium with his genetic makeup, Candizzle with his genetic makeup and Chad Mower equally and universally?
Think about that for a second......not to easy is it? You would have skinny guys saying "the Slaveboy diet doesnt do jack for me I gained nothing" while maybe guys who were 28% bodyfat would say "the donkeykong diet might of worked for that 155lb guy but it made me even fatter"
I believe in the thermic effect of food. If you take the 3 components, its much harder to increase bodyfat with protein than the other 2 components.....along with it being an essential in gaining muscle mass. So I have recommended 1.5 to 2.0 grams of protein per pound for natural guys, and 2.0 to 2.5 per pound for enhanced guys.....knowing that 25% of those calories ingested as protein are going to be burned up thru digestion. The rest of that is up to the individual carbwise and fatwise to determine for himself if I am not helping him individually....I throw some guidelines out there but I sure as heck am not a miracle worker when I dont know who is reading me and only taking into account what he wants to take from that post. I am not responsible for fat guys who switch over to my way of doing things and stay fat guys. I tell those guys diet down to a proper offseason training bodyfat percentage first. Or guys who eat everything under the kitchen sink because they think "Im bulking no matter what"
So my question to both of you is this. Your job is to put out a universal detailed diet for (lets say) everyone reading Getbig today. Its great to critisize when your on the outside looking in but i want you to wear the shoes. Are you going to be able to help every single guy from 240 to Troponin, myself, Jaejonna, Ron, and on and on and on in this forum put on the most amount of muscle mass with no bodyfat gain whatsoever with your universal diet?
dont know what your arguing about really? what exactly do you disagree with in regards to what i have written.
be more specific and ill reply.
i have read most of what you put online regarding nutrition (that is freely available) and i know you dont have a cookie cutter setup (some people believed that you recommended your diet that you posted in the cycle for pennies thread as the official DC diet..i understood from the get go that that wasnt the case...someone who is 300lbs and has an active job will obviously need more calories than a 180lbs office worker)
and there is no universal diet that will fit all people, so i cant recommend one. (read my previous posts)
as for your protein recommendations :
i think 1.5 is ok..probably not necessary but not harmful either. 2.0 grams of protein per pound is overkill for a natural. my recommendation is 1.0 g of protein/lbs , up to 1.5 if your on a hard diet. (which you arent when trying to gain muscle)
for aas users, with systematically enhanced protein synthesis i agree that a high protein intake is the way to go. how high? i dont really know.
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Slaveboy, if you actually trained under Dante,(which wouldn't happen i'm sure) and folllowed his guidelines, your opinions would do a 360.+
Just saying, hell what do I know.
wouldn
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Slaveboy, if you actually trained under Dante,(which wouldn't happen i'm sure) and folllowed his guidelines, your opinions would do a 360.+
Just saying, hell what do I know.
wouldn
actually i think the DC setup is a good one. i simply dont agree with everything he says.
you know things arent always black or white?
if dantes setup was complete shit, it wouldnt have lasted this many years.
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is it really true that he was knocked out by a guy he was training after making a pass at him?
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high intensity = good
low volume= shit
these guys always act like "you can train hard or you can train long" ...
fuck that.
train hard and long. like dorian and cutler and and ronnie and everyone who ever loooked half way decent.
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high intensity = good
low volume= shit
these guys always act like "you can train hard or you can train long" ...
fuck that.
train hard and long. like dorian and cutler and and ronnie and everyone who ever loooked half way decent.
Dorian did low volume. you need to learn a bit before talking like you know it all . just a heads up son
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Dorian did low volume. you need to learn a bit before talking like you know it all . just a heads up son
your fucking crazy. one working set per exercise does not mean low volume. dorian trained high volume just not all out o every set for every exercise.
YOU NEED TO LEARN A BIT BEFORE TALKING LIKE YOU KNOW IT ALL SON
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your fucking crazy. one working set per exercise does not mean low volume. dorian trained high volume just not all out o every set for every exercise.
YOU NEED TO LEARN A BIT BEFORE TALKING LIKE YOU KNOW IT ALL SON
i bet you cant even find your own butthole. :-*
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i bet you cant even find your own butthole.
where is that where can i find that
dorain = high intensity...not low volume... he trained hard and long he wasnt one of these one working set total mother fuckers he just believed for every movement you only need on true working set.. but he did several different movements for every body part
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your fucking crazy. one working set per exercise does not mean low volume. dorian trained high volume just not all out o every set for every exercise.
YOU NEED TO LEARN A BIT BEFORE TALKING LIKE YOU KNOW IT ALL SON
Dorian trained low volume and low frequency by pro standards and 'norma' standards too. He was very influenced by the pioneers of low volume : Athur Jones and Mike Mentzer.
he talks very opening about it. read and learn kid, seriously. dont you wonder why everyone laughs at you?
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bro ive read more on body building than you even know exists to read
have you ever even watched a dorian trainin tape?
dorain, yes, influenced by HIT methods
low volume ??? no he trained multiple exercises for every body part
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where is that where can i find that
the fact that you stick your head in the toilet should be a lead
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thanks for saying absolutely NOTHING :D
and oh yeah, degree or no degree, your a moron if you think weight in muscle added=grams of protein utilized.... hahaha... ... again.. "hahaha".. justin didnt you go to school for this ?? your ignorance is amazing
Ron can you ban this cockgobbler :-\ :-X :o >:( :-*
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low volume ??? no he trained multiple exercises for every body part
That's still low volume. No where does it say that all 'low volume' us defined by only ever doing one set of one exercise.
You are embarrassing yourself.
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That's still low volume. No where does it say that all 'low volume' us defined by only ever doing one set of one exercise.
You are embarrassing yourself.
okay sweetmuscles think what youi may i really dont care
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for aas users, with systematically enhanced protein synthesis i agree that a high protein intake is the way to go. how high? i dont really know.
OTOH you could make the argument that since steroids increase amino acid recycling you could grow/get away with less protein.
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OTOH you could make the argument that since steroids increase amino acid recycling you could grow/get away with less protein.
indeed, in other discussions i have made that argument too. but it doesnt change the fact that an aas user will benefit more from a very high protein intake than a natural athlete would.
one coin, two sides.
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What stuff have you read Candid?
What do you think is the most dangerous trap for trainees to fall into?
What kind of routine/food worked for you and what didn't?
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What stuff have you read Candid? everything i could find...
What do you think is the most dangerous trap for trainees to fall into? low protein calorie based diets, training weak thinking diet and drugs are most important, worrying about appealing to females instead of worrying about what you look like compared to competitive bodybuilders
What kind of routine/food worked for you and what didn't? high protein moderate fat moderate carbs for gaining muscle ..... high protein, moderate fat, zero starch for losing fat
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i would like to apologize to anyone and everyone who i offended in this thread by acting like i know it all.
while i truly dontbelieve protien is going to "make you fat", i was only tryingt o get people worked up and angry because that is fun to a bored kid like me.
i concede that justin harris and several others in this thread are much more knowledgeable than i.
:)
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big but soft. white dude. he is always supposed to comepete but never does. i think hes one of those guys that never thinks hes good enogh. although i think if he dieted down he would do well.
actually dante will be the first to tell you he doesnt have the discipline to compete. Heard it from him myself. Dudes honest. I thought he actually competed and wondered how he looked. Got my head ripped off lol. Touchy subject and now i know why, hes been on getbig lol
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I dont think "discipline" is the right word. Im about the most dedicated, determined, driven person I personally know of. I think "time" and "what do i really want to accomplish" are the right words. I definitely dont have time. Ive accomplished everything Ive wanted to accomplish in this sport already personally. Ive dieted down 3 times for shows (before dropping out due to exhaustion of working 2 jobs) because I felt it was something I was supposed to do, something expected of me....but thats really not what drove me to this endeavor. I like the training, eating every 3 hours, studying, muscle mass accumalation, fixing problems and exceeding plateaus part of the sport.....not the diuretic, dehydration, severe carb depletion, massive trenbolone usage, posing trunks, jan tana, posing oil side of it.
Just my personal choice. For some people winning the East Tricity championship superheavy class will reaffirm their personal standing as a bodybuilder. More power to them. I dont have clouded thinking that I have pro genetics (90% of the internet) or any dreams of a pro card and its just not what drives me. Ive seen you and I think it was legbreaker on this site get irritated with me for god knows what, still havent quite figured it out ....because i dont do what you guys do (prep guys for shows). Never have and I have no interest in the least of doing so. I get people big and large and then give them over to Skip or Troponin to take them into shows. (or at least I used to.....Im burnt out on it and havent taken anyone new on since 2007...and Im probably done on that front too)
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Hey Dante,
I seen/met Nate from Myahem today. Wolff? Right?
He looks sick crazy! He and I are going to hook up this summer for some serious offseason heavy training...DC style. He's gonna teach me. Justin did an awesome job with him. I predict he will place Top-2 at Jr. Nationals(welterweight).
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Hey Dante,
I seen/met Nate from Myahem today. Wolff? Right?
He looks sick crazy! He and I are going to hook up this summer for some serious offseason heavy training...DC style. He's gonna teach me. Justin did an awesome job with him. I predict he will place Top-2 at Jr. Nationals(welterweight).
Nate made some incredible progress this year.
Of course, he had the luxury of training with Jay Cutler for much of the year, which certainly didn't hurt.
He's definitely put himself in the position to stand out this year.
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people really need to stop humoring candi and force him to back up. every post he makes ties the noose tighter around his neck.
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people really need to stop humoring candi and force him to back up. every post he makes ties the noose tighter around his neck.
shut up magoo
you dont know jack shit about anything, not about traiing about nutrition about drugs about lifestyle or about shit
you think your keep it simple stupid philosophy gives you street cred but your a fucking fool
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shut up magoo
you dont know jack shit about anything, not about traiing about nutrition about drugs about lifestyle or about shit
you think your keep it simple stupid philosophy gives you street cred but your a fucking fool
see this is what i mean. you're Mr Meltdown here and outright pathetic with how much you think you know versus what you actually know. the fact that at nearly six feet tall and roughly 200 pounds you're resorting to steroids already speaks volumes about how well your dietary and training methods are working.
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see this is what i mean. you're Mr Meltdown here and outright pathetic with how much you think you know versus what you actually know. the fact that at nearly six feet tall and roughly 200 pounds you're resorting to steroids already speaks volumes about how well your dietary and training methods are working.
what do i think i know ? what do i actually know??
i know a little bit and i think i know a little bit.
this is getbig and thias is the G&O arguing is for fun
dont make up stats about me
maggo you admit you dont know anything about what foods to eat and by your posts in the training forum where you post 24/7 its most obvious what you have to say on the subject is nothing but speculation from your own shitty training sessions
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...geneticists all across the world would disagree.
There might be a couple of minor variations related to allergies (dairy, gluten etc)... but this genetic/metabolic uniqueness is nothing more than a persistent; pernicious FLEX magazine myth.
You are not a beautiful unique snowflake... you are not special... there is no perfect routine...
You will actually have to train hard, and your lack of progress is down to your own failings: accept it.
The Luke
Kind of contraditcting yourself, aren't you?
It's exactly what i said, there is no perfect routine and no perfect diet.
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Kind of contraditcting yourself, aren't you?
It's exactly what i said, there is no perfect routine and no perfect diet.
No Donkey... and this is why we disagree... you need to read more carefully.
There is no perfect routine but there is an objective measure of what would constitute the "best" routine.
The "best" routine would be the one which produces the best results for the most people... granted some people will not progress as well as others on such a routine, but that does not mean that they could make any better progress doing something else.
Let me give you an example:
Low volume training doesn't work for everyone... some people just don't like it and some people just aren't able for it... these people would be better off doing something else, but seeing as low volume Arthur Jones-style HIT training is the most efficient training method they won't make the progress that they would if they could make HIT work for them.
Or alternatively, here's an analogy:
When I went to my mechanic to get my car brakes upgraded I was able to read the spec sheets and compare the performance of the various disks and pads available... my mechanic didn't tell me that there was no best braking system and that I would have to figure out which system would work best for my individual car...
Only in bodybuilding do people believe that biological individuality extends to such a basic physical mechanism as muscle growth... biologists and geneticists must think we're all morons... it's tantamount to people jumping off skyscrapers to see what their "individual fall tolerance is".
Those FLEX magazine platitudes really brainwash people...
The Luke
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No Donkey... and this is why we disagree... you need to read more carefully.
There is no perfect routine but there is an objective measure of what would constitute the "best" routine.
The "best" routine would be the one which produces the best results for the most people... granted some people will not progress as well as others on such a routine, but that does not mean that they could make any better progress doing something else.
Let me give you an example:
Low volume training doesn't work for everyone... some people just don't like it and some people just aren't able for it... these people would be better off doing something else, but seeing as low volume Arthur Jones-style HIT training is the most efficient training method they won't make the progress that they would if they could make HIT work for them.
Or alternatively, here's an analogy:
When I went to my mechanic to get my car brakes upgraded I was able to read the spec sheets and compare the performance of the various disks and pads available... my mechanic didn't tell me that there was no best braking system and that I would have to figure out which system would work best for my individual car...
Only in bodybuilding do people believe that biological individuality extends to such a basic physical mechanism as muscle growth... biologists and geneticists must think we're all morons... it's tantamount to people jumping off skyscrapers to see what their "individual fall tolerance is".
Those FLEX magazine platitudes really brainwash people...
The Luke
i see. sorry, i misunderstood your post.
I personally think, abd i have stated that here before, that training is just about intensity, shocking the muscle in whatever form.
All forms of training are probably good, it's more a question if your head likes it.
As for nutrition, i did never say eating tons of protein would NOT make you big, and especially if you do tons and tons of cardio for fatloss besides the weightlifting. Dante's training is very good, but it's not practical for people with jobs and a life besides BB.
If you don't work in an office alone, it's difficult. If you are a lot outside with customers, it's impossible to eat all the time or take all the required food with you for several days.
I am actually not questioning the theory, but the practical side. Sorry i couldn't make this clear before.
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...geneticists all across the world would disagree.
There might be a couple of minor variations related to allergies (dairy, gluten etc)... but this genetic/metabolic uniqueness is nothing more than a persistent; pernicious FLEX magazine myth.
You are not a beautiful unique snowflake... you are not special... there is no perfect routine...
You will actually have to train hard, and your lack of progress is down to your own failings: accept it.
The Luke
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Apologies then Donkey...
I might have taken more umbridge than your position merited. My fault.
I must take exception to the notion that pretty much all training is the same however. This is a common misconception...
For example, I'm on the very upper end of natural development (lifetime natural) yet the training methods I use would seem like heresy to all the guys who insist that training is pretty much a oneness and that overeating and steroids decide success.
What is happening here (and throughout this site lately) is a backlash against people like Dante/DOGGCRAPP who dare to question the uncritical thinking that has reduced bodybuilding to it's current piteous state, wherein teenage competitors are megadosing... pros are filled with oil... and none of the fans/enthusiasts want to accept that any progress of any kind can be made without steroids.
Fact: You can build a good physique without steroids
Fact: If you can't build a good natural physique, you have no business using steroids
Fact: If you are countering the thoughtful, analytical approach favored by people such as Dante; Arthur Jones; Ellington Darden and others with blanket generalizations and dismissive reductionism... you're not helping.
The Luke
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Apologies then Donkey...
I might have taken more umbridge than your position merited. My fault.
I must take exception to the notion that pretty much all training is the same however. This is a common misconception...
For example, I'm on the very upper end of natural development (lifetime natural) yet the training methods I use would seem like heresy to all the guys who insist that training is pretty much a oneness and that overeating and steroids decide success.
What is happening here (and throughout this site lately) is a backlash against people like Dante/DOGGCRAPP who dare to question the uncritical thinking that has reduced bodybuilding to it's current piteous state, wherein teenage competitors are megadosing... pros are filled with oil... and none of the fans/enthusiasts want to accept that any progress of any kind can be made without steroids.
Fact: You can build a good physique without steroids
Fact: If you can't build a good natural physique, you have no business using steroids
Fact: If you are countering the thoughtful, analytical approach favored by people such as Dante; Arthur Jones; Ellington Darden and others with blanket generalizations and dismissive reductionism... you're not helping.
The Luke
i begin to like you, Teh Luke. ;D ;D
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i begin to like you, Teh Luke. ;D ;D
Really, you're one of the bland platitudists I was taking to task...?
The Luke
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Really, you're one of the bland platitudists I was taking to task...?
The Luke
Again, i think we misunderstand each other. Maybe a problem with my english language competence.
I think that ALL kinds of training are great, if they SHOCK the muscle. You say, for a natural at the end of the line some kind of 'heretic' training may be necessary.
I believe that all kinds of training have a value, but not for everyone. I have seen naturals who got a good built and a good conditioning by training 10 month a year with merely their bodyweight (pushups, chinups etc) and 2 months weights and doing beach volleyball, basketball and swimming for cardio (this obviously trains legs and back as well). These guys got bigger than some naturals who WO 3 times a week HIT style will ever get.
On the other hand, there are some naturals training HIT 3 times a week who dwarf them.
There is no perfect training, i think we agree on that. There may be some training whivh is better than the other, but the body adapts very fast, so changing your training style constantly will lead to the best results IMO.
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Apologies then Donkey...
I might have taken more umbridge than your position merited. My fault.
I must take exception to the notion that pretty much all training is the same however. This is a common misconception...
For example, I'm on the very upper end of natural development (lifetime natural) yet the training methods I use would seem like heresy to all the guys who insist that training is pretty much a oneness and that overeating and steroids decide success.
What is happening here (and throughout this site lately) is a backlash against people like Dante/DOGGCRAPP who dare to question the uncritical thinking that has reduced bodybuilding to it's current piteous state, wherein teenage competitors are megadosing... pros are filled with oil... and none of the fans/enthusiasts want to accept that any progress of any kind can be made without steroids.
Fact: You can build a good physique without steroids
Fact: If you can't build a good natural physique, you have no business using steroids
Fact: If you are countering the thoughtful, analytical approach favored by people such as Dante; Arthur Jones; Ellington Darden and others with blanket generalizations and dismissive reductionism... you're not helping.
The Luke
just a lot of vague bs, that no one really has disputed (certainly not me). other than the idiot candizzle. maybe you actually should start reading posts. but i guess its easier to argument if you lump everyone together ehh?
as for dante: you are correct, his setup is alot better than the usual flex magainze bullshit (said several times already). but that doesnt put him above questioning. once again its not a case of black or white. if you question dante it doesnt mean your a flex magazine follower. and in fact basically the only criticism against dantes setup i have voiced in this thread is his sometimes excessive protein recommendations to naturals. (there are other things that i dont agree about ..but wont go into that right now)
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Again, i think we misunderstand each other. Maybe a problem with my english language competence.
I think that ALL kinds of training are great, if they SHOCK the muscle. You say, for a natural at the end of the line some kind of 'heretic' training may be necessary.
I believe that all kinds of training have a value, but not for everyone. I have seen naturals who got a good built and a good conditioning by training 10 month a year with merely their bodyweight (pushups, chinups etc) and 2 months weights and doing beach volleyball, basketball and swimming for cardio (this obviously trains legs and back as well). These guys got bigger than some naturals who WO 3 times a week HIT style will ever get.
On the other hand, there are some naturals training HIT 3 times a week who dwarf them.
There is no perfect training, i think we agree on that. There may be some training whivh is better than the other, but the body adapts very fast, so changing your training style constantly will lead to the best results IMO.
exactly,switching routines,exercises,volume,and training style slow rep and fast rep and rep numbers ,nothing set in stone and u will not get bored.
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Again, i think we misunderstand each other. Maybe a problem with my english language competence.
I think that ALL kinds of training are great, if they SHOCK the muscle. You say, for a natural at the end of the line some kind of 'heretic' training may be necessary.
I believe that all kinds of training have a value, but not for everyone. I have seen naturals who got a good built and a good conditioning by training 10 month a year with merely their bodyweight (pushups, chinups etc) and 2 months weights and doing beach volleyball, basketball and swimming for cardio (this obviously trains legs and back as well). These guys got bigger than some naturals who WO 3 times a week HIT style will ever get.
On the other hand, there are some naturals training HIT 3 times a week who dwarf them.
There is no perfect training, i think we agree on that. There may be some training whivh is better than the other, but the body adapts very fast, so changing your training style constantly will lead to the best results IMO.
dont agree with that at all.
in fact changing routines too often is one of the main reasons for why people dont progress.
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Debatable. Chronobiology has to be taken into account. For natural bodybuilders, periodizing is essential.
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Hopefully, Donkey Kong will understand that there is no direct personal malice intended here... but his response is a textbook example of the faulty reasoning I decry at every opportunity...
I think that ALL kinds of training are great, if they SHOCK the muscle. You say, for a natural at the end of the line some kind of 'heretic' training may be necessary.
...simply wrong, wrong, wrong!
The bullshit two hour sessions, twice a day, six days a week high volume shite regimens espoused (but not necessarily adhered to) by every Weider athlete from Arnold to Lee Haney and promulgated as de facto bodybuilding orthodoxy for nearly thirty years... never built any muscle for anyone... ever!
Somehow, the PC brainwashing endemic in modern society encourages even bodybuilders to affirm the equal validity of any and all training regimens... can't we simply admit that certain inefficient training regimes were foisted upon naive yet eager teenage boys by a bodybuilding media dependent on snake-oil hucksterism?
I believe that all kinds of training have a value, but not for everyone.
...the religous overtones are obvious here. Respect and equality of reverence for all ideologies irregardless of scientific truth.
Not exactly conducive to progress is it?
I have seen naturals who got a good built and a good conditioning by training 10 month a year with merely their bodyweight (pushups, chinups etc) and 2 months weights and doing beach volleyball, basketball and swimming for cardio (this obviously trains legs and back as well). These guys got bigger than some naturals who WO 3 times a week HIT style will ever get.
On the other hand, there are some naturals training HIT 3 times a week who dwarf them.
...and I once met an avid hillwalker who carried a solid 240 lbs (20% bf) replete with 18'' arms and baffling 19'' calves, who, at 53 years of age, felt he might like to start doing some light bench presses and dumbbell curls for "better health".
None of this really matters... as all it does is justify obfuscation and hands-off bafflement.
The question should be one of consistent progress and the efficiency; universality and reproductivity of such progress... and on those accounts the case is already settled: the result? Low volume Arthur Jones-style HIT training (whole body workouts of compound movements) is, and has repeatedly been shown to be, THE MOST EFFECTIVE AND BEST form of bodybuilding training.
If you don't believe this, see the sterling work and consistent success Dr Ellington Darden has had working with genetically typical and natural trainees.
ANYONE doing ANYTHING else (no matter what progress they are making) would do BETTER with HIT.
There is no perfect training, i think we agree on that. There may be some training whivh is better than the other, but the body adapts very fast, so changing your training style constantly will lead to the best results IMO.
...bodyparts don't adapt. It's a bodybuilding myth.
OVERTRAINED bodybuilders can sometimes (accidentally) surpass the neurological limitations put on their strained muscular systems due to their overtrained state by changing exercises.
In layman's terms this means...
If you are overtrained you train at a lessened capacity due to the metabolic stress of overtraining itself... that's why changing exercises causes some form of shock (DOMS; muscular soreness) as the body is tricked into working beyond that lessened capacity.
If you were to avoid the overtraining altogether then you can continue to progress doing the same exercises ad infinitum...
I've become so good at doing squats that I don't do anything else for legs (that's just one set for quads, hams or calves)... I've become so good at doing bent over rows that I rarely (if ever) do anything else for my back... I've become so good at doing flyes that a set of flat-bench dumbbell flyes can easily constitute a productive chest workout.
As you progress you should be doing less and less... not doing Swiss-ball one-legged kettle bell squats with your fingers crossed looking to "shock" your muscles.
Sorry for the rant.
The Luke
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dont agree with that at all.
in fact changing routines too often is one of the main reasons for why people dont progress.
again, you read out of my post what you want to see.
Staying with the same training style for 10 years will gety you nowhere i think. I never said anything about how often you should change, on the other hand i think that changing styles every few weeks will lead to far better progress than staying with one setup for 6-8 months.
Do you have any facts for your statement that changing routines will lead to stagnation?
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I dont think "discipline" is the right word. Im about the most dedicated, determined, driven person I personally know of. I think "time" and "what do i really want to accomplish" are the right words. I definitely dont have time. Ive accomplished everything Ive wanted to accomplish in this sport already personally. Ive dieted down 3 times for shows (before dropping out due to exhaustion of working 2 jobs) because I felt it was something I was supposed to do, something expected of me....but thats really not what drove me to this endeavor. I like the training, eating every 3 hours, studying, muscle mass accumalation, fixing problems and exceeding plateaus part of the sport.....not the diuretic, dehydration, severe carb depletion, massive trenbolone usage, posing trunks, jan tana, posing oil side of it.
Just my personal choice. For some people winning the East Tricity championship superheavy class will reaffirm their personal standing as a bodybuilder. More power to them. I dont have clouded thinking that I have pro genetics (90% of the internet) or any dreams of a pro card and its just not what drives me. Ive seen you and I think it was legbreaker on this site get irritated with me for god knows what, still havent quite figured it out ....because i dont do what you guys do (prep guys for shows). Never have and I have no interest in the least of doing so. I get people big and large and then give them over to Skip or Troponin to take them into shows. (or at least I used to.....Im burnt out on it and havent taken anyone new on since 2007...and Im probably done on that front too)
Whatever the wording was doesnt matter. I do understand your side as i feel the same. Big waste of money and time over nothing, esp when you work 90 hours a week like i do as well. And yes I prep guys, alot, and have alot of titles but i have never once came at you. I only asked you on mayhem if you competed ever. That was the only time i ever really talked with you, plus this post. Good luck in your business.
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Hopefully, Donkey Kong will understand that there is no direct personal malice intended here... but his response is a textbook example of the faulty reasoning I decry at every opportunity...
...simply wrong, wrong, wrong!
The bullshit two hour sessions, twice a day, six days a week high volume shite regimens espoused (but not necessarily adhered to) by every Weider athlete from Arnold to Lee Haney and promulgated as de facto bodybuilding orthodoxy for nearly thirty years... never built any muscle for anyone... ever!
Somehow, the PC brainwashing endemic in modern society encourages even bodybuilders to affirm the equal validity of any and all training regimens... can't we simply admit that certain inefficient training regimes were foisted upon naive yet eager teenage boys by a bodybuilding media dependent on snake-oil hucksterism?
...the religous overtones are obvious here. Respect and equality of reverence for all ideologies irregardless of scientific truth.
Not exactly conducive to progress is it?
...and I once met an avid hillwalker who carried a solid 240 lbs (20% bf) replete with 18'' arms and baffling 19'' calves, who, at 53 years of age, felt he might like to start doing some light bench presses and dumbbell curls for "better health".
None of this really matters... as all it does is justify obfuscation and hands-off bafflement.
The question should be one of consistent progress and the efficiency; universality and reproductivity of such progress... and on those accounts the case is already settled: the result? Low volume Arthur Jones-style HIT training (whole body workouts of compound movements) is, and has repeatedly been shown to be, THE MOST EFFECTIVE AND BEST form of bodybuilding training.
If you don't believe this, see the sterling work and consistent success Dr Ellington Darden has had working with genetically typical and natural trainees.
ANYONE doing ANYTHING else (no matter what progress they are making) would do BETTER with HIT.
...bodyparts don't adapt. It's a bodybuilding myth.
OVERTRAINED bodybuilders can sometimes (accidentally) surpass the neurological limitations put on their strained muscular systems due to their overtrained state by changing exercises.
In layman's terms this means...
If you are overtrained you train at a lessened capacity due to the metabolic stress of overtraining itself... that's why changing exercises causes some form of shock (DOMS; muscular soreness) as the body is tricked into working beyond that lessened capacity.
If you were to avoid the overtraining altogether then you can continue to progress doing the same exercises ad infinitum...
I've become so good at doing squats that I don't do anything else for legs (that's just one set for quads, hams or calves)... I've become so good at doing bent over rows that I rarely (if ever) do anything else for my back... I've become so good at doing flyes that a set of flat-bench dumbbell flyes can easily constitute a productive chest workout.
As you progress you should be doing less and less... not doing Swiss-ball one-legged kettle bell squats with your fingers crossed looking to "shock" your muscles.
Sorry for the rant.
The Luke
nice post.
maybe i need your experience to understand you. right now i have to be frank and say i don't agree with all of what you say.
For example, i never said anything about high volume twice a day sessions or swiss ball to "shock" the muscle, but maybe that was just a drastic example from you.
Still i cannot see how dumbell flies only will lead to a good chest development.
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again, you read out of my post what you want to see.
Staying with the same training style for 10 years will gety you nowhere i think. I never said anything about how often you should change, on the other hand i think that changing styles every few weeks will lead to far better progress than staying with one setup for 6-8 months.
Do you have any facts for your statement that changing routines will lead to stagnation?
you said constantly.
and no you shouldnt use exactly the same routine month after month. training should be periodized, but you shouldnt be changing everything every other week either.
some people take the changing stuff up to the extreme, and from week to week change every exercise they do. bad idea.
id suggest sticking with a routine 4-8(sometimes even 12) weeks...deload (DC calls this cruisin)..change some variables and repeat. (progressive strength increases should always be the goal...no milos giant set shit)
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I have to agree with The Luke about the Weider regime. Most Bbers overtrain and as a result end up juicing for lots of them once their bodies can't cope anymore with their stupid workout. Then suddenly they'll justify their gains by their work ethic.
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Debatable. Chronobiology has to be taken into account. For natural bodybuilders, periodizing is essential.
periodization is a given. wasnt refering to that.
i was talking about this bullshit about shocking the muscle and changing everything all the time so that in the end you really cant measure progress
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periodization is a given. wasnt refering to that.
i was talking about this bullshit about shocking the muscle and changing everything all the time so that in the end you really cant measure progress
Agreed but I don't thinh DonkeyKong was exactly referring to the same thing. You can keep your workout "canevas" (number of sets, reps, rest time, etc...) and still "shock" your muscles to a certain exent by using dfferent exercises from one session to another. I'll generally keep compound movements as the only "mandatory" exercises.
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Agreed but I don't thinh DonkeyKong was exactly referring to the same thing. You can keep your workout "canevas" (number of sets, reps, rest time, etc...) and still "shock" your muscles to a certain exent by using dfferent exercises from one session to another. I'll generally keep compound movements as the only "mandatory" exercises.
donno im no mind reader. i dont like the word 'shocking the muscles' and he did say 'constantly' change routines.
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nice post.
maybe i need your experience to understand you. right now i have to be frank and say i don't agree with all of what you say.
For example, i never said anything about high volume twice a day sessions or swiss ball to "shock" the muscle, but maybe that was just a drastic example from you.
Still i cannot see how dumbell flies only will lead to a good chest development.
you don't agree with what he's said because he talks a load of shit.
luke, your writing style, and use of a thesaurus is impressive, but this isn't literacy.com this is getbig. we wil call you, dante or anyone else on false claims.
you say a lot of sensible things, like the use of compound movements are good compound movements, but then claim you only use flys for chest ::)
you claim that bobybuilders should use less work as they progress, yet powerlifters are getting stronger year on year by increasing working capacity.
periodization has been proven to work.
and HIT leads to rampant overtraining. Please explain these confusing facts?
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you don't agree with what he's said because he talks a load of shit.
luke, your writing style, and use of a thesaurus is impressive, but this isn't literacy.com this is getbig. we wil call you, dante or anyone else on false claims.
you say a lot of sensible things, like the use of compound movements are good compound movements, but then claim you only use flys for chest ::)
you claim that bobybuilders should use less work as they progress, yet powerlifters are getting stronger year on year by increasing working capacity.
periodization has been proven to work.
and HIT leads to rampant overtraining. Please explain these confusing facts?
yeah i was thinking about posting about that too. but i dont have time right now. i think people in general do too many sets and have to little focus on weight progression. but luke writes alot of fancy worded bs too. (agree with some things he says..but other stuff is pure bullshit)
funny part is that alot of the HIT shit isnt based on science. (which luke thinks so highly off...and i do too...science that is)
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Agreed but I don't thinh DonkeyKong was exactly referring to the same thing. You can keep your workout "canevas" (number of sets, reps, rest time, etc...) and still "shock" your muscles to a certain exent by using dfferent exercises from one session to another. I'll generally keep compound movements as the only "mandatory" exercises.
thanks, that's what i meant.
donno im no mind reader. i dont like the word 'shocking the muscles' and he did say 'constantly' change routines.
sorry, i won't use it again. By constantly, i didn't mean changing the whole thing around every week.
Giant sets IMO does only mean to cut the pauses between exercises, this works well for me. Sorry for the mixup.
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Lots of anger here based on my prose style, and the usual dismissive generalized criticism... guess there aren't a lot of "readers" reading this...
HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.
The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?
The Luke
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Lots of anger here based on my prose style, and the usual dismissive generalized criticism... guess there aren't a lot of "readers" reading this...
HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.
The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?
The Luke
criticism has been far from generalized. your just being arrogant as usual :D .............in fact its YOU who is using the dismissive generalized criticism tactic.
HIT isnt based on science (alot of it isnt), and its flawed. and far from all top naturals use it. dont lie. actually most top naturals dont use it.
what do you include under the HIT umbrella? HIT means alot things to different people. give exact details about workout programming and ill comment.
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Slaveboy1980,
Have you kept up with the evolution of HIT theory? Most of Arthur Jones misconceptions have been corrected and improved upon.
I've been working out for 18 years... since age 12.
I have tried EVERYTHING. People criticize my aggression towards volume training... well pretty much wherever my critics are in their training career, I've been there... and failed.
High volume? I did 80 set workouts seven days a week... till I got shingles; went back to volume training, till I got pneumonia... went back to volume training, till I got shingles again. It's not that I simply went through the motions for the ten odd years that I did volume type training.
I've tried every variation between super high volume and extreme Mentzer Heavy Duty (one workout per week, 3 sets, 10 minutes).
At 30 I'm still making progress... my best progress to date using old-fashioned Arthur Jones wholebody HIT:
warm-up
-Squats
-Deadlifts
...same weight for squats and deadlifts, done together these two exercises stop all post-workout DOMS (not sure why)
-Bench presses
-(Flyes)
-Narrow dips
-Close grip benches
-Bent over rows
-(Close grip pulldowns)
-Lateral raises
-Stirrup grip cable curls
...that's ten sets total and then eight sets total later in the week (same workout minus the parenthesized exercises). Two full body workouts per week... for about an hour of total gym time per week.
I'm pretty much a training non-responder, eking out a pound or two each year... but the few training partners I've had over the years have all stopped working out with me for the same reason: they got as big as they wanted to get (one gained thirty pounds in 18 months as an experienced lifetime natural).
Don't for a moment think that I'm an Adonis-type fantasist... I've been where you are now, wherever you are now... I've worked against two year long plateaus... you can trust what I say.
Similarly, guys with little training experience who have accumulated very little muscle mass... (which lets be honest, might describe several of Dante's detractors in this thread) shouldn't be dismissing the wealth of experience and practical knowledge that DOGGCRAPP training brings to the table.
Think about it:
-doctors don't know everything
-western medicine is based on pharmacy, not cure
-a holistic approach would work better
...all these constitute valid criticism of the medical system.
But none of it is detailed enough to be actionable; none of it would contribute to a medical diagnosis and none of it would constitute the kind of medical opinion I'd want to hear from my doctor (or pay for).
Let's hear out Dante side of the argument...
The Luke
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The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?
The Luke
Powerlifting? NO ONE in powerlifting uses nasal androstenedione. Nor any other sport. Where the hell did you get this? The old GDR files? LOL. All the best tested/clean/natural powerlifters use a lot of volume/frequency. The enhanced lifters do lots of volume too. Insulin and GH plays a very negligible role in powerlifting.
Ask BILLY MIMNAUGH here on this forum.
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Powerlifting? NO ONE in powerlifting uses nasal androstenedione. Nor any other sport. Where the hell did you get this? The old GDR files? LOL. All the best tested/clean/natural powerlifters use a lot of volume/frequency. The enhanced lifters do lots of volume too. Insulin and GH plays a very negligible role in powerlifting.
...no one? Androstenedione was developed as a nasal spray because the testosterone cascade following nasal absorption allowed increased strength (probably via better neuronal force). Most of the Bulgarian weightlifting records (arguably) are the result of super-fast acting testosterones and test analogues.
Other sports? Androstenedione nasal spray was initially used by the East German swim team... supposedly even the Communist Block divers were using it...
Insulin and GH play no role in powerlifting? Must be the high volume training that has helped break all these raw (unassisted) powerlifting records.
Come on guys... let's get real here.
The Luke
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...no one? Androstenedione was developed as a nasal spray because the testosterone cascade following nasal absorption allowed increased strength (probably via better neuronal force). Most of the Bulgarian weightlifting records (arguably) are the result of super-fast acting testosterones and test analogues.
Other sports? Androstenedione nasal spray was initially used by the East German swim team... supposedly even the Communist Block divers were using it...
Insulin and GH play no role in powerlifting? Must be the high volume training that has helped break all these raw (unassisted) powerlifting records.
Come on guys... let's get real here.
The Luke
You don't know what you're talking about here. The androstendione was used to get around the doping test and the effectiveness was probably poor (but perhaps better than nothing). Doesn't work for that purpose anymore. It's tested for and playing with test levels on comp day with "fast acting testosterones" will get you busted. If you want neural effects there's much much better steroids out there.
Insulin and GH do very very little for powerlifting performance. The bread and butter of powerlifting doping has been the same for decades: Test, Anadrol, Dbol, Tren - the high androgen steroids. Deca for joints. Stimulants. Corticosteroids.
Do some GH and insulin without androgens and tell me how much your maxes increased. Even the lowest amount of steroids beats any dosage of insulin and growth stacked.
Some lifters use growth for joint regeneration. Insulin might help recovery a bit. But these are not rampant in powerlifting IMO. Someone with very inside knowledge, like Billy Mimnaugh, can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Van Bilderass,
Apologies with regard to the androstenedione, I might well be wrong... I heard it was being used at powerlifting events (along with neuro-boosters such as Hydergine). But this does beggar the question of why a chemical you avow to be useless is being tested for at all?
It does work (not brilliantly) and that's why it is used sufficiently that a test became necessary... many records were set with the use/aid (if any) of Androstenedione back when you needed only claim to be taking perfectly legal DHEA to account for your skewed hormone profile.
If not GH and insulin... what new drugs are in use that are pushing up raw poundages?
Surely, you don't agree with my other detractors on this thread in the contention that newly fandangled training techniques are responsible?
The Luke
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say "HIT" anywhere but on a bodybuilding board and you'll get laughed at until you pack up your little suitcase and run home crying. bodybuilding is the only athletic activity that postulates you can get more done by cranking DOWN your workload.
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I'll check this thread again tonight (in Ireland).
I'm off to the gym to try to improve on my very good 345 lbs x 10 squat and 345 lbs x 12 deadlift double set from last Friday.
The Luke
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Van Bilderass,
Apologies with regard to the androstenedione, I might well be wrong... I heard it was being used at powerlifting events (along with neuro-boosters such as Hydergine). But this does beggar the question of why a chemical you avow to be useless is being tested for at all?
It does work (not brilliantly) and that's why it is used sufficiently that a test became necessary... many records were set with the use/aid (if any) of Androstenedione back when you needed only claim to be taking perfectly legal DHEA to account for your skewed hormone profile.
If not GH and insulin... what new drugs are in use that are pushing up raw poundages?
Surely, you don't agree with my other detractors on this thread in the contention that newly fandangled training techniques are responsible?
The Luke
Androstenedione might only be minimally effective but the drug testing bodies put everything steroidal on the list out of principle. It could also be used as an excuse to cover up for other steroids. If your test is out of range is it due to andro or plain test? See what I mean? There are tons of drugs on the list that have zero proof of effectiveness. Growth hormone is one example. A few years ago someone in the IOC or WADA actually proposed removing it since the few studies that had been done actually showed it reduced performance (endurance). For neural effects I'm sure the East Germans would rather have used the Mestenolone (STS 646) but it wasn't possible for obvious reasons.
I don't know if raw poundages have moved up that much in the recent years really. The deadlift record stood for 25 years or something. The strong androgens are still the best strength boosters there are. If there is a phenom breaking records I would say genetics is probably the biggest contributor to his success (leverages for example), not any new drugs.
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HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.
which science? which top naturals use it?
The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?
i could argue that improvements in bodybuilding physiques by pro users of HIT i.e. mentzer, yates (although i agree with candy, he wasn't as low volume as you make out) were due to advances in steroid use.
you clearly respect dr dardens work, however why is there a vast number of the followers of his HIT ( on his own board ) all trying various other HIT varients like rouge HIT, SUPER SLOW, that new take on 21s by johnson (forget the name) POF, etc.
To me the main selling point of HIT is progressive resistance, and that muscle increases with strength, so why then don't you all use powerlifting workouts as they get you stronger/faster that any other workout???
I too have tried many different workouts, and also seriously burned out using volume, with 2-3 hour workouts 6 days a week. However i have also sustained injuries by using HIT, but when greater volume was added, it has always brought more muscle mass.
I agree with you comments that there must be one universal principle to building mass, band that science will hold the answer, but i do not believe HIT to be it.
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where'd that fat bloated uglee kid cumdizzle go? ;D
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where'd that fat bloated uglee kid cumdizzle go? ;D
this thread is about training, he doesn't understand it.
cumdrizzle gets big with steroids and supplements, not training.
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this thread is about training, he doesn't understand it.
cumdrizzle gets big with steroids and supplements, not training.
post a picture of your massive self DK, we will compare soem photos of when i was natural to you, a supposed life time natural... :D
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post a picture of your massive self DK, we will compare soem photos of when i was natural to you, a supposed life time natural... :D
::) ::)
You really should work on your self esteem, kid.
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I think HIT is simply true...
The reason why it doesn't work for everyone is that HIT assumes all trainees can train with very high intensity... that's just not true.
I've worked out with guys who follow sound training protocols (infrequent workouts, load progression etc) yet make no progress... and in those cases it's usually down to effort. I know a couple of HIT advocates who never even push to the point of needing to grit their teeth.
I'm making progress, they're not... our routines are similar (their nutrition is better than mine)... but I'm the one who's either puking of edging into fainting territory each workout. No one wants to do this... and that's where all the HIT variations come from.
I probably should add a few stipulations to my previous assertions:
Classic Arthur Jones style HIT is the best training protocol assuming:
-you can train to the point of true pant-shitting failure
-you can use good form
-you know how to rest and eat properly
The Luke
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::) ::)
You really should work on your self esteem, kid.
thats your way of saying "oh shit candi called me out and if i posta picture i will be just one more getbig badass who ends up lookin like they never trained a day in my life ".... haha
post a picture DK prove me wrong mr big stuff
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thats your way of saying "oh shit candi called me out and if i posta picture i will be just one more getbig badass who ends up lookin like they never trained a day in my life ".... haha
post a picture DK prove me wrong mr big stuff
forget it. SF tried it over the years, and i did have more respect for him than for you. You're just a juicing idiot kid that feels great because he's on steroids.
you cannot "own" me, because i ave more in my life than you will ever achieve.
Hope this helps.
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forget it. SF tried it over the years, and i did have more respect for him than for you. You're just a juicing idiot kid that feels great because he's on steroids.
you cannot "own" me, because i ave more in my life than you will ever achieve.
Hope this helps.
Brutal avoiding to post pics of his "physique", actually covering it by telling us how "successful" he is in real life (if he has one).
=
look like shit.
::)
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Brutal avoiding to post pics of his "physique", actually covering it by telling us how "successful" he is in real life (if he has one).
=
look like shit.
::)
lol, good one!
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lol, good one!
nice huh. ;)
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I think HIT is simply true...
The reason why it doesn't work for everyone is that HIT assumes all trainees can train with very high intensity... that's just not true.
I've worked out with guys who follow sound training protocols (infrequent workouts, load progression etc) yet make no progress... and in those cases it's usually down to effort. I know a couple of HIT advocates who never even push to the point of needing to grit their teeth.
I'm making progress, they're not... our routines are similar (their nutrition is better than mine)... but I'm the one who's either puking of edging into fainting territory each workout. No one wants to do this... and that's where all the HIT variations come from.
I probably should add a few stipulations to my previous assertions:
Classic Arthur Jones style HIT is the best training protocol assuming:
-you can train to the point of true pant-shitting failure
-you can use good form
-you know how to rest and eat properly
The Luke
you think HIT is simply true ??????
thats not very science based :-\ :'(
so much for that ::)
another getbig clown exposed :-*
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you think HIT is simply true ??????
thats not very science based :-\ :'(
so much for that ::)
another getbig clown exposed :-*
...I retract my statements, having been won over by the evidence of your emoticons.
The Luke
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...I retract my statements, having been won over by the evidence of your emoticons.
The Luke
don't trouble yourself, your not the 1st ;)
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don't trouble yourself, your not the 1st ;)
...monster contribution, kid.
The Luke
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...monster contribution, kid.
The Luke
your welcome, sport.
The Panda