old dante

[DK II]

Agreed but I don't thinh DonkeyKong was exactly referring to the same thing. You can keep your workout "canevas" (number of sets, reps, rest time, etc...) and still "shock" your muscles to a certain exent by using dfferent exercises from one session to another. I'll generally keep compound movements as the only "mandatory" exercises.

thanks, that's what i meant.

donno im no mind reader. i dont like the word 'shocking the muscles' and he did say 'constantly' change routines.

sorry, i won't use it again. By constantly, i didn't mean changing the whole thing around every week.

Giant sets IMO does only mean to cut the pauses between exercises, this works well for me. Sorry for the mixup.

[The Luke]

Lots of anger here based on my prose style, and the usual dismissive generalized criticism... guess there aren't a lot of "readers" reading this...


HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.

The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?


The Luke

[slaveboy1980]

Lots of anger here based on my prose style, and the usual dismissive generalized criticism... guess there aren't a lot of "readers" reading this...


HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.

The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?


The Luke

criticism has been far from generalized. your just being arrogant as usual  .............in fact its YOU who is using the dismissive generalized criticism tactic.

HIT isnt based on science (alot of it isnt), and its flawed. and far from all top naturals use it. dont lie. actually most top naturals dont use it.

what do you include under the HIT umbrella? HIT means alot things to different people. give exact details about workout programming and ill comment.

[The Luke]

Slaveboy1980,


Have you kept up with the evolution of HIT theory? Most of Arthur Jones misconceptions have been corrected and improved upon.

I've been working out for 18 years... since age 12.
   I have tried EVERYTHING. People criticize my aggression towards volume training... well pretty much wherever my critics are in their training career, I've been there... and failed.

High volume? I did 80 set workouts seven days a week... till I got shingles; went back to volume training, till I got pneumonia... went back to volume training, till I got shingles again. It's not that I simply went through the motions for the ten odd years that I did volume type training.

I've tried every variation between super high volume and extreme Mentzer Heavy Duty (one workout per week, 3 sets, 10 minutes).


At 30 I'm still making progress... my best progress to date using old-fashioned Arthur Jones wholebody HIT:

warm-up
-Squats   
-Deadlifts   
...same weight for squats and deadlifts, done together these two exercises stop all post-workout DOMS (not sure why)
-Bench presses
-(Flyes)
-Narrow dips
-Close grip benches
-Bent over rows
-(Close grip pulldowns)
-Lateral raises
-Stirrup grip cable curls

 ...that's ten sets total and then eight sets total later in the week (same workout minus the parenthesized exercises). Two full body workouts per week... for about an hour of total gym time per week.


I'm pretty much a training non-responder, eking out a pound or two each year... but the few training partners I've had over the years have all stopped working out with me for the same reason: they got as big as they wanted to get (one gained thirty pounds in 18 months as an experienced lifetime natural).


Don't for a moment think that I'm an Adonis-type fantasist... I've been where you are now, wherever you are now... I've worked against two year long plateaus... you can trust what I say.


Similarly, guys with little training experience who have accumulated very little muscle mass... (which lets be honest, might describe several of Dante's detractors in this thread) shouldn't be dismissing the wealth of experience and practical knowledge that DOGGCRAPP training brings to the table.


Think about it:
-doctors don't know everything
-western medicine is based on pharmacy, not cure
-a holistic approach would work better
   ...all these constitute valid criticism of the medical system.

But none of it is detailed enough to be actionable; none of it would contribute to a medical diagnosis and none of it would constitute the kind of medical opinion I'd want to hear from my doctor (or pay for).


Let's hear out Dante side of the argument...

The Luke

[Van_Bilderass]

The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?


The Luke

Powerlifting? NO ONE in powerlifting uses nasal androstenedione. Nor any other sport. Where the hell did you get this? The old GDR files? LOL. All the best tested/clean/natural powerlifters use a lot of volume/frequency. The enhanced lifters do lots of volume too. Insulin and GH plays a very negligible role in powerlifting.

Ask BILLY MIMNAUGH here on this forum.

[The Luke]

Powerlifting? NO ONE in powerlifting uses nasal androstenedione. Nor any other sport. Where the hell did you get this? The old GDR files? LOL. All the best tested/clean/natural powerlifters use a lot of volume/frequency. The enhanced lifters do lots of volume too. Insulin and GH plays a very negligible role in powerlifting.

...no one? Androstenedione was developed as a nasal spray because the testosterone cascade following nasal absorption allowed increased strength (probably via better neuronal force). Most of the Bulgarian weightlifting records (arguably) are the result of super-fast acting testosterones and test analogues.

Other sports? Androstenedione nasal spray was initially used by the East German swim team... supposedly even the Communist Block divers were using it...

Insulin and GH play no role in powerlifting? Must be the high volume training that has helped break all these raw (unassisted) powerlifting records.

Come on guys... let's get real here.



The Luke

[Van_Bilderass]

...no one? Androstenedione was developed as a nasal spray because the testosterone cascade following nasal absorption allowed increased strength (probably via better neuronal force). Most of the Bulgarian weightlifting records (arguably) are the result of super-fast acting testosterones and test analogues.

Other sports? Androstenedione nasal spray was initially used by the East German swim team... supposedly even the Communist Block divers were using it...

Insulin and GH play no role in powerlifting? Must be the high volume training that has helped break all these raw (unassisted) powerlifting records.

Come on guys... let's get real here.



The Luke

You don't know what you're talking about here. The androstendione was used to get around the doping test and the effectiveness was probably poor (but perhaps better than nothing). Doesn't work for that purpose anymore. It's tested for and playing with test levels on comp day with "fast acting testosterones" will get you busted. If you want neural effects there's much much better steroids out there.

Insulin and GH do very very little for powerlifting performance. The bread and butter of powerlifting doping has been the same for decades: Test, Anadrol, Dbol, Tren - the high androgen steroids. Deca for joints. Stimulants. Corticosteroids.

Do some GH and insulin without androgens and tell me how much your maxes increased. Even the lowest amount of steroids beats any dosage of insulin and growth stacked.

Some lifters use growth for joint regeneration. Insulin might help recovery a bit. But these are not rampant in powerlifting IMO. Someone with very inside knowledge, like Billy Mimnaugh, can correct me if I'm wrong.

[The Luke]

Van Bilderass,


Apologies with regard to the androstenedione, I might well be wrong... I heard it was being used at powerlifting events (along with neuro-boosters such as Hydergine). But this does beggar the question of why a chemical you avow to be useless is being tested for at all?

It does work (not brilliantly) and that's why it is used sufficiently that a test became necessary... many records were set with the use/aid (if any) of Androstenedione back when you needed only claim to be taking perfectly legal DHEA to account for your skewed hormone profile.


If not GH and insulin... what new drugs are in use that are pushing up raw poundages?

Surely, you don't agree with my other detractors on this thread in the contention that newly fandangled training techniques are responsible?


The Luke


 

[MisterMagoo]

say "HIT" anywhere but on a bodybuilding board and you'll get laughed at until you pack up your little suitcase and run home crying. bodybuilding is the only athletic activity that postulates you can get more done by cranking DOWN your workload.

[The Luke]

I'll check this thread again tonight (in Ireland).

I'm off to the gym to try to improve on my very good 345 lbs x 10 squat and 345 lbs x 12 deadlift double set from last Friday.


The Luke

[Van_Bilderass]

Van Bilderass,


Apologies with regard to the androstenedione, I might well be wrong... I heard it was being used at powerlifting events (along with neuro-boosters such as Hydergine). But this does beggar the question of why a chemical you avow to be useless is being tested for at all?

It does work (not brilliantly) and that's why it is used sufficiently that a test became necessary... many records were set with the use/aid (if any) of Androstenedione back when you needed only claim to be taking perfectly legal DHEA to account for your skewed hormone profile.


If not GH and insulin... what new drugs are in use that are pushing up raw poundages?

Surely, you don't agree with my other detractors on this thread in the contention that newly fandangled training techniques are responsible?


The Luke


 

Androstenedione might only be minimally effective but the drug testing bodies put everything steroidal on the list out of principle. It could also be used as an excuse to cover up for other steroids. If your test is out of range is it due to andro or plain test? See what I mean? There are tons of drugs on the list that have zero proof of effectiveness. Growth hormone is one example. A few years ago someone in the IOC or WADA actually proposed removing it since the few studies that had been done actually showed it reduced performance (endurance). For neural effects I'm sure the East Germans would rather have used the Mestenolone (STS 646) but it wasn't possible for obvious reasons.

I don't know if raw poundages have moved up that much in the recent years really. The deadlift record stood for 25 years or something. The strong androgens are still the best strength boosters there are. If there is a phenom breaking records I would say genetics is probably the biggest contributor to his success (leverages for example), not any new drugs.

[Fatpanda]

HIT is based on science and has been shown to be the most effective training protocol... all the top naturals use it; and it works for genetically typical trainees... which amply demonstrates it's efficacy.

which science? which top naturals use it?

The performance increases in modern powerlifting are due to advances (or perhaps a new kamikaze mindset regarding dosages) in steroid use (insulin, GH and nasal androstenedione) not increased workload during training... I thought everyone was aware of this?

i could argue that improvements in bodybuilding physiques by pro users of HIT i.e. mentzer, yates (although i agree with candy, he wasn't as low volume as you make out) were due to advances in steroid use.


you clearly respect dr dardens work, however why is there a vast number of the followers of his HIT ( on his own board ) all trying various other HIT varients like rouge HIT, SUPER SLOW, that new take on 21s by johnson (forget the name) POF, etc.

To me the main selling point of HIT is progressive resistance, and that muscle increases with strength, so why then don't you all use powerlifting workouts as they get you stronger/faster that any other workout???

I too have tried many different workouts, and also seriously burned out using volume, with 2-3 hour workouts 6 days a week. However i have also sustained injuries by using HIT, but when greater volume was added, it has always brought more muscle mass.

I agree with you comments that there must be one universal principle to building mass, band that science will hold the answer, but i do not believe HIT to be it.

[jason armstrong]

where'd that fat bloated uglee kid cumdizzle go?

[DK II]

where'd that fat bloated uglee kid cumdizzle go?

this thread is about training, he doesn't understand it.

cumdrizzle gets big with steroids and supplements, not training.

[candidizzle]

this thread is about training, he doesn't understand it.

cumdrizzle gets big with steroids and supplements, not training.

post a picture of your massive self DK, we will compare soem photos of when i was natural to you, a supposed life time natural... 

[DK II]

post a picture of your massive self DK, we will compare soem photos of when i was natural to you, a supposed life time natural... 

 

You really should work on your self esteem, kid.

[The Luke]

I think HIT is simply true...

The reason why it doesn't work for everyone is that HIT assumes all trainees can train with very high intensity... that's just not true.

I've worked out with guys who follow sound training protocols (infrequent workouts, load progression etc) yet make no progress... and in those cases it's usually down to effort. I know a couple of HIT advocates who never even push to the point of needing to grit their teeth.

I'm making progress, they're not... our routines are similar (their nutrition is better than mine)... but I'm the one who's either puking of edging into fainting territory each workout. No one wants to do this... and that's where all the HIT variations come from.


I probably should add a few stipulations to my previous assertions:

Classic Arthur Jones style HIT is the best training protocol assuming:
-you can train to the point of true pant-shitting failure
-you can use good form
-you know how to rest and eat properly


The Luke

[candidizzle]

You really should work on your self esteem, kid.

thats your way of saying "oh shit candi called me out and if i posta picture i will be just one more getbig badass who ends up lookin like they never trained a day in my life ".... haha

post a picture DK prove me wrong mr big stuff

[DK II]

thats your way of saying "oh shit candi called me out and if i posta picture i will be just one more getbig badass who ends up lookin like they never trained a day in my life ".... haha

post a picture DK prove me wrong mr big stuff

forget it. SF tried it over the years, and i did have more respect for him than for you. You're just a juicing idiot kid that feels great because he's on steroids.

you cannot "own" me, because i ave more in my life than you will ever achieve.


Hope this helps.

[Meso_z]

forget it. SF tried it over the years, and i did have more respect for him than for you. You're just a juicing idiot kid that feels great because he's on steroids.

you cannot "own" me, because i ave more in my life than you will ever achieve.


Hope this helps.

Brutal avoiding to post pics of his "physique", actually covering it by telling us how "successful" he is in real life (if he has one).
=
look like shit.

 

[DK II]

Brutal avoiding to post pics of his "physique", actually covering it by telling us how "successful" he is in real life (if he has one).
=
look like shit.

 

lol, good one!

[Meso_z]

lol, good one!

nice huh. 

[Fatpanda]

I think HIT is simply true...

The reason why it doesn't work for everyone is that HIT assumes all trainees can train with very high intensity... that's just not true.

I've worked out with guys who follow sound training protocols (infrequent workouts, load progression etc) yet make no progress... and in those cases it's usually down to effort. I know a couple of HIT advocates who never even push to the point of needing to grit their teeth.

I'm making progress, they're not... our routines are similar (their nutrition is better than mine)... but I'm the one who's either puking of edging into fainting territory each workout. No one wants to do this... and that's where all the HIT variations come from.


I probably should add a few stipulations to my previous assertions:

Classic Arthur Jones style HIT is the best training protocol assuming:
-you can train to the point of true pant-shitting failure
-you can use good form
-you know how to rest and eat properly


The Luke

you think HIT is simply true

thats not very science based 

so much for that

another getbig clown exposed

[The Luke]

you think HIT is simply true

thats not very science based 

so much for that

another getbig clown exposed

...I retract my statements, having been won over by the evidence of your emoticons.


The Luke

[Fatpanda]

...I retract my statements, having been won over by the evidence of your emoticons.


The Luke

don't trouble yourself, your not the 1st