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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Hedgehog on April 21, 2009, 02:54:09 PM
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Is it okay for a Christian to use waterboarding and torture?
Would Jesus torture his enemies?
WWJD? What would Jesus do?
Bush, a confessed Christian, orderered torture.
Was that ok?
The reason I'm asking is because I haven't seen any of the well known Christians of this board speak out against the practice of torture.
I'm not gonna draw the conclusion that you actually support torture just yet - but it would be interesting to see your thoughts on the matter.
Why or why not you think the use of torture is ok.
Also, what kind of support you can find for your point of view in your faith.
I found a few pieces on the net on this matter:
A Christian soldier:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/jwalking/2007/11/a-soldier-on-waterboarding.html
Huckabee was against waterboarding, due to his Christian beliefs:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/would-jesus-waterboard/
A Christian Conservative making a stand in a Christian Conservative mag:
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/004068.html
BTW, if you care to know, I do not support torture. Being an Atheist, I base this strictly on moral values and common sense.
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ever read the old testament waterboarding is pretty tame in comparison to the shit thats in that book.
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I don't think it's a Christian issue. It's a safety issue. I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives.
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I don't think it's a Christian issue. It's a safety issue. I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives.
so mixing prayer/religion with senate mettings were bills are passed that effect people of all different beliefs is a OK.
but America's stance on torture don't need to be addressed by religious leaders or there members....talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it to.
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Would Jesus torture his enemies?
WWJD? What would Jesus do?
I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.
I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails.
I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.
If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.
If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.
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I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.
I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails.
I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.
If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.
If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.
How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?
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I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.
I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails.
I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.
If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.
If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.
How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?
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in all honesty, tortue has been around and will be around forever. It is a necessity. As americans we think that it is horrible and don't practice it. In realty we alwyas have, we just rarely do it on our own soil or use our own agents to carry it out. People talk about the geneva convention and how the rules of war should be applied. Sorry, but rules are useless if only one side is using them. War is war, it's dirty and violent. If waterboarding or flogging a prisoner can save a city then so be it. We have become a societ that is weak when it comes to reality. Also, i beleive that you keep religion out of politics.
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How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?
Hopefully I would never have to find out first hand. But I would consider which would be the lesser of the two evils.
Which is worse? To make a terrorist or criminal very uncomfortable for short bursts of time or to do nothing and allow hundreds or thousands of people (or even one) to die a horrible death?
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when in doubt, the terrorist/criminal must go down
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so mixing prayer/religion with senate mettings were bills are passed that effect people of all different beliefs is a OK.
but America's stance on torture don't need to be addressed by religious leaders or there members....talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it to.
Sorry. Don't see a connection. The question was about the Christian response to waterboarding, not prayer in the state senate.
What do you mean by "have your cake and eat it to"?
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What do you mean by "have your cake and eat it to"?
mmmm....cake
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mmmm....cake
ROFL, i went shopping today and almost bought one. Now i really want some.
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mmmm....cake
:)
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Sorry. Don't see a connection. The question was about the Christian response to waterboarding, not prayer in the state senate.
Furthermore, it's Team Obama who has defined waterboarding as "torture". Now, this administration is trying to retroactively punish its predecessor for doing something that was well within the law to do.
As for President Bush, he took an oath before God, to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. He felt that this method was the best (and perhaps the only) method to get these terrorists to talk, therefore thwart their plans to commit atrocities that would have made 9/11 look like a cat-fight at Hooters.
My more pressing concern is that Obama is hardly doing what he campaigned he would do, namely move beyond the petty stuff and get with the business of protecting this nation. He's sucking up to the far-left, who won't rest until they get their revenge on Bush and his administration.
in all honesty, tortue has been around and will be around forever. It is a necessity. As americans we think that it is horrible and don't practice it. In realty we alwyas have, we just rarely do it on our own soil or use our own agents to carry it out. People talk about the geneva convention and how the rules of war should be applied. Sorry, but rules are useless if only one side is using them. War is war, it's dirty and violent. If waterboarding or flogging a prisoner can save a city then so be it. We have become a societ that is weak when it comes to reality. Also, i beleive that you keep religion out of politics.
I disagree. Again, as Dr King said, the church should not be conscience of the state (not its master or its servant).
If Dr. King had taken your advice, there'd be no civil rights movement for black people.
Politics is shaped on what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong. Guess what helps to shape that? RELIGION!!
Religious belief is why Jefferson stated that you and I are endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, which you can't take from me and I can't take from you.
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How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?
That’s easy!! There’s nothing Christian about putting tens of thousands of your countrymen at risk (especially, if you’ve sworn before God to protect them), by playing nice with enemy combatants to placate foreign critics (which is really at the heart of this issue).
The U.N. will not feed your babies or give them shelter, if you get blown to bits. France, Spain, and, Germany will not dispatch the troops to avenge your fallen loved ones.
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I don't think it's a Christian issue. It's a safety issue. I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives.
LOL, you guys separate when convenient and in other areas are totally ok with Christian values applied toward government.
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I disagree. Again, as Dr King said, the church should not be conscience of the state (not its master or its servant).
If Dr. King had taken your advice, there'd be no civil rights movement for black people.
Politics is shaped on what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong. Guess what helps to shape that? RELIGION!!
Religious belief is why Jefferson stated that you and I are endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, which you can't take from me and I can't take from you.
UNtil churches start paying taxes they have no right to say anything about goverment.
As for Dr. king taking my advice and civil rights movement, it's a different issue.
I beleieve his wording was more of a protective use of literary licesnce so that any governmoent structure/party would follow it as to not upset the public. The creator did not grant us civil rights. The founding fathers did.
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LOL, you guys separate when convenient and in other areas are totally ok with Christian values applied toward government.
Separate what? I'm not the one trying to make the connection in the first place.
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think about it as really aggressive baptism.
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UNtil churches start paying taxes they have no right to say anything about goverment.
Oh yes, they do.
As for Dr. king taking my advice and civil rights movement, it's a different issue.
You contradicted yourself. By your previous statement, Dr. King supposedly had no right to say anything about government, because his church was tax-exempt.
I beleieve his wording was more of a protective use of literary licesnce so that any governmoent structure/party would follow it as to not upset the public. The creator did not grant us civil rights. The founding fathers did.
Your belief is dead wrong.
The founding fathers, Jefferson in particular, are the ones who made that statement. There is no such thing as inalienable rights, without a Creator who bestows such on all men.
If man is the source of civil rights, all I need is enough political, financial, or military muscle and I can STRIP YOU of your rights, thus they are not "inalienable".
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I don't think it's a Christian issue. It's a safety issue. I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives.
well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.
I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God
Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.
Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
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Furthermore, it's Team Obama who has defined waterboarding as "torture". Now, this administration is trying to retroactively punish its predecessor for doing something that was well within the law to do.
waterboarding was defined as torture hundreds of years ago.
It was the Bush Admin lawyers who attempted to re-define and then pretend it was legal
come on McWay - you know this stuff already
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well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.
I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God
Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.
Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
Do you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS you sound, trying to use these verses as an excuse to justify letting terrorists kill our people?
These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting. As far as feeding our enemies go, didn't a news report state that these guys gained an average of about 18 pounds, while locked up in Gitmo? So, it appears that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad didn't miss too many meals.
The term, "Love one another", in no way or form, means stand idly by and let your people (whom you swore BEFORE THIS VERY SAME GOD TO PROTECT FROM ALL ENEMIES) get blown to bits.
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waterboarding was defined as torture hundreds of years ago.
It was the Bush Admin lawyers who attempted to re-define and then pretend it was legal
come on McWay - you know this stuff already
I'm sorry!! Since when does NANCY PELOSI work for the Bush adminstration's legal team?
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Do you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS you sound, trying to use these verses as an excuse to justify letting terrorists kill our people?
These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting. As far as feeding our enemies go, didn't a news report state that these guys gained an average of about 18 pounds, while locked up in Gitmo? So, it appears that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad didn't miss too many meals.
The term, "Love one another", in no way or form, means stand idly by and let your people (whom you swore BEFORE THIS VERY SAME GOD TO PROTECT FROM ALL ENEMIES) get blown to bits.
oh so the bible only applies in the context of war or peace
I guess there was no war or conflict at the time the bible was being written.
I guess I also missed the asterik where is says "void in time of war"
you're hilarious
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I'm sorry!! Since when does NANCY PELOSI work for the Bush adminstration's legal team?
I don't even know what this means.
Waterboarding has been a well known method of torture, which btw can be continued until the point of death and has been around for hundreds of years.
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oh so the bible only applies in the context of war or peace
I guess there was no war or conflict at the time the bible was being written.
It depends on which books. Regardless, NONE OF THEM claim that gov't leaders are supposed to stand by and let their people be destroyed by playing patty-cake with their enemies (in EITHER Testament).
I guess I also missed the asterik where is says "void in time of war"
you're hilarious
I missed the verses that states, "Let your people be killed and blown to bit, lest ye make AL Qaeda, the UN, left-winged journalists, politicians, and cracked-minded GetBig posters unhappy".
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McWay - I'm not saying we should let terrorist do anything.
this is not complicated.
Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.
Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc... or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?
Also, many christians would argue that those bible quotes apply at all times. I mean for christ sakes it's kind of hard to see how these quotes would not apply during a time of war and you know full well that there were constant and ongoing wars at the time the bible was written and pretty much continously from the dawn of time.
If anything, real christians like you should be praying for the terrorists and certainly have no religious ground to support torturing them. Maybe you're not really a true christian
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
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well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.
I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God
Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.
Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
Straw Man you are a fool. You're an atheist who quotes the Bible, which is all about a relationship with a being you don't believe in. Do you have mock prayers too? ::)
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McWay - I'm not saying we should let terrorist do anything.
this is not complicated.
Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.
Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc... or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?
First, your statement is loaded with questionable assumptions and flat-out falsehoods. First, waterboarding was NOT illegal. Secondly, whether the information gathered is "false" is the subject of debate.
Third, at the end of the day, we got KSM and others to talk, resulting in the saving of American lives.
Also, many christians would argue that those bible quotes apply at all times. I mean for christ sakes it's kind of hard to see how these quotes would not apply during a time of war and you know full well that there were constant and ongoing wars at the time the bible was written and pretty much continously from the dawn of time.
And exactly with whom was Israel at war, when the New Testament was written? That would be NOBODY. They were already under Roman subjugation.
If anything, real christians like you should be praying for the terrorists and certainly have no religious ground to support torturing them. Maybe you're not really a true christian
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
One, who says that Christians aren't praying for them (another foolish assumption, on your part).
The irony of all is that, for all of your silly talk, you are doing the very thing you accuse Christians of doing: picking and choosing verses.
The Bible also says, "If a man sheds another man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed". But, anyone with a grain of common sense (which disqualifies you, at the moment) can see, when such applies and when it does not.
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Straw Man you are a fool. You're an atheist who quotes the Bible, which is all about a relationship with a being you don't believe in. Do you have mock prayers too? ::)
I mostly mock hypocrites.
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I mostly mock hypocrites.
Quit picking on yourself. It ain't healthy!
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Let's review.
The bible does not apply in a time of war
waterboarding was legal until Obama made it illegal
waterboarding is an effective way of getting good intelligence and has no negative consequences
Have I missed anything?
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Let's review.
The bible does not apply in a time of war
waterboarding was legal until Obama made it illegal
waterboarding is an effective way of getting good intelligence and has no negative consequences
Have I missed anything?
Other than your natural mind, any semblance of common sense, or a clue?
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Other than your natural mind, any semblance of common sense, or a clue?
so you agree with everything else then?
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Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.
Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc... or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?
Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
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well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.
I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God
Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.
Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
Straw Man,
So do you think Christians should be banned from the military, that they should not be allowed to fight in any of your wars? Will you fight in their place?
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Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
there are examples and I'll find them later if you're truly interested.
the point is really moot because torture is illegal.....remember?
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Straw Man,
So do you think Christians should be banned from the military, that they should not be allowed to fight in any of your wars? Will you fight in their place?
Christians are free to do whatever they want.
I understand that it's difficult to follow the tenets of your religion when it goes against your base human instincts.
do you agree that all those quotes listed are "void" in times of war? (as McWay has suggested)
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there are examples and I'll find them later if you're truly interested.
the point is really moot because torture is illegal.....remember?
If I were not interested, then I would not have asked you to list these other methods and to show evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
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Christians are free to do whatever they want.
I understand that it's difficult to follow the tenets of your religion when it goes against your base human instincts.
do you agree that all those quotes listed are "void" in times of war? (as McWay has suggested)
You did not answer my question. Based on the Bible verses you posted, along with your own interpretation of those Bible verses, to make your point that Christians should oppose Waterboarding, then you must want Christians to be banned from military service too. You must want Christians to be excluded from combat. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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mmmm cake
sorry Stella had to do it
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You did not answer my question. Based on the Bible verses you posted, along with your own interpretation of those Bible verses, to make your point that Christians should oppose Waterboarding, then you must want Christians to be banned from military service too. You must want Christians to be excluded from combat. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
where did I say that Christians should be banned from military service?
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where did I say that Christians should be banned from military service?
You did not say that. That is my conclusion based on you quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation.
I guess I misunderstand you. What's your purpose in quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation?
Correct me if I'm wrong. Based on your interpretation of those Bible verses, Christians should oppose waterboarding, capital punishment and war. Which means that if the US is attacked by another country, and if there is a draft, you would be okay if Christians are excluded from the draft based on their "religious opposition to war". You would be okay with Christians staying behind, praying for your enemies and sending aid to your enemies, while you go fight those enemies. You would be okay with Christian engineers, scientists, etc. doing absolutely no work in any research or technology related to weapons of any kind. Am I correct?
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Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
Still waiting.
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You did not say that. That is my conclusion based on you quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation.
I guess I misunderstand you. What's your purpose in quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation?
Correct me if I'm wrong. Based on your interpretation of those Bible verses, Christians should oppose waterboarding, capital punishment and war. Which means that if the US is attacked by another country, and if there is a draft, you would be okay if Christians are excluded from the draft based on their "religious opposition to war". You would be okay with Christians staying behind, praying for your enemies and sending aid to your enemies, while you go fight those enemies. You would be okay with Christian engineers, scientists, etc. doing absolutely no work in any research or technology related to weapons of any kind. Am I correct?
My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you. No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people. Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop. For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151
The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life. This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared. As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times. Fucking Hilarious
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My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you. No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people. Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop. For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151
The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life. This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared. As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times. Fucking Hilarious
good post.
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My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you. No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people. Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop. For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151
The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life. This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared. As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times. Fucking Hilarious
Still avoiding my questions I see.
What is it that you want Straw Man? Are you okay with Christians being excluded from a draft and from working on military research and technology or not?
Or do you want Christians to love your enemies only when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but to hate your enemies and to kill them when it comes to defending you and your country? How convenient!
You accuse Christians of being inconsistent, but you are the one being inconsistent here, and border line hypocritical.
You accuse Christians of imposing their morals and values on you, yet you are the one coming here and quoting the Bible to Christians and imposing your interpretation on them. You'd make a great televangelist. You are the one imposing your morals and values about waterboarding and capital punishment on others.
You complain because Christians in politics follow their faith and the Bible, but when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment you all of a sudden want Christians to follow the Bible, your interpretation of it anyway. Make up your mind.
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Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
Still waiting.
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Still avoiding my questions I see.
What is it that you want Straw Man? Are you okay with Christians being excluded from a draft and from working on military research and technology or not?
I wasn't aware we had a draft and I've already said that I've never said such things.
Christians are free to do whatever they want. Working on military research or technology is not equivalent to torturing a detainee. Engaging in legal warfare is not torture.
It's one thing to engage in war and something completely different to torture someone you've detained or captured in war.
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I wasn't aware we had a draft and I've already said that I've never said such things.
I said in an earlier post that IF your country is attacked by another country and IF there is a draft, are you okay with Christians being excluded from A draft and from working on military research and technology or not?
Christians are free to do whatever they want. Working on military research or technology is not equivalent to torturing a detainee. Engaging in legal warfare is not torture.
It's one thing to engage in war and something completely different to torture someone you've detained or captured in war.
Not according to your Bible quotes and your interpretation. Do you want Christians in your country to love your enemies or not? Very simple questions.
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I said in an earlier post that IF your country is attacked by another country and IF there is a draft, are you okay with Christians being excluded from A draft and from working on military research and technology or not?
IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs. I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice.
Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner
Not according to your Bible quotes and your interpretation. Do you want Christians in your country to love your enemies or not? Very simple questions.
My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)
I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war
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IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs. I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice.
Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner
So you are telling me that you would absolutely not complain if all Christians in the US decided to oppose waterbording, capital punishment and war, and from now on would not get involved in anything related to war. You would not complain at all IF the government one day drafted you to go to war while all Christians in the US stay behind loving and praying for your enemies, correct?
You do know that all Jehovah's Witness in the US and in other countries are by law exempt from being drafted by the military. When non-US Jehovah's Witness become Naturalized American Citizens, they are the only ones not required by law to swear to take up arms to defend the US. You are telling me that you would not complain at all if the same became true for all Christians in your country?
My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)
I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war
Why do you care what a Christian condones or does not condone? Why do you try to impose your morals and values on Christians? Isn't that the very same thing that you accuse them of doing to you?
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I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers
This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.
Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanizes both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.
I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.
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I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers
This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.
Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanized both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.
I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.
Haven't you learned anything?Mcway will twist and turn anything until it fit's into his own standards and personal beliefs.
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Haven't you learned anything?Mcway will twist and turn anything until it fit's into his own standards and personal beliefs.
you're right and there are a few others here who do the same thing.
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good post.
thanks
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So you are telling me that you would absolutely not complain if all Christians in the US decided to oppose waterbording, capital punishment and war, and from now on would not get involved in anything related to war. You would not complain at all IF the government one day drafted you to go to war while all Christians in the US stay behind loving and praying for your enemies, correct?
You do know that all Jehovah's Witness in the US and in other countries are by law exempt from being drafted by the military. When non-US Jehovah's Witness become Naturalized American Citizens, they are the only ones not required by law to swear to take up arms to defend the US. You are telling me that you would not complain at all if the same became true for all Christians in your country?
Why do you care what a Christian condones or does not condone? Why do you try to impose your morals and values on Christians? Isn't that the very same thing that you accuse them of doing to you?
I think the point that Straw Man is trying to make is that you (and the other Christians on this board) really don't seem to have any morals or values but what suits you at the time. And he certainly seems to be right from what I have read in this thread.
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I think the point that Straw Man is trying to make is that you (and the other Christians on this board) really don't seem to have any morals or values but what suits you at the time. And he certainly seems to be right from what I have read in this thread.
Me? Why me? Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?
What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board? You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies. That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.
By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.
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Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."
Still waiting.
What are you talking about, Straw Man? Are you talking about sleep deprivation, tickling their feet, showering them with kindness until they fall in love with you and tell you what you want to know? What?
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Still waiting.
What are you talking about, Straw Man? Are you talking about sleep deprivation, tickling their feet, showering them with kindness until they fall in love with you and tell you what you want to know? What?
did you look at the link to the book from the last page. Here's more from the same person.
btw - you seem to keep ignoring the fact that torturing yields a lot of worthless info and.... it's illegal. Maybe you just want to torture.
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html
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did you look at the link to the book from the last page. Here's more from the same person.
Did you read your own link? Did you read this article? If so, then why is it so hard for your to simply list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."?
btw - you seem to keep ignoring the fact that torturing yields a lot of worthless info and.... it's illegal. Maybe you just want to torture.
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html
How so? Where did this come from? I ask you a simple question, which you seem to not want to answer, and all of a sudden I want to torture? Says who?
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Did you read your own link? Did you read this article? If so, then why is it so hard for your to simply list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."?
I did read the link and I saw the guy talk on TV and I've heard other interogators make similar statements.
Please clarify your statement above. What problems do these alternative techniques have? Why should I take your word or point of view over a guy who's actually been performing these interrogations.
Also, what are we even debating here. You've already said you don't condone torture and this thread is about waterboarding which is torture.
It would seem that we're already in agreement
By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.
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I would not complain at all if someone opposed war on religious grounds provided they were completely consistent in word and deed.
I'm also sure that there would be no shortage of christian soldiers
This is not about a legal or justified war it's about torturing people.
Torture is illegal, it doesn't work that well, it dehumanizes both parties and it serves as a recruiting tool.
I find it absurd that Christians feel justified in torturing people and even more absurd that people like McWay declare certain parts of the bible void during a time of war.
First of all, I didn't declare "certain parts of the Bible void" during war. What I called you on was your silly attempt to claim that the words of Jesus means that we're supposed to endanger our people and risk their destruction and death, just because it makes some terrorists feel uncomfy.
Me? Why me? Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?
What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board? You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies. That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.
By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.
This issue is nothing more than a political witchhunt by the left, that want to get even with Bush and his administration.
But, you're dead on the money, Loco. Had KSM or these other guys succeeded and blown up more of our people (or God forbid, something like that happens again), we'll see just how much Straw Man and all these other critics want our gov't to "love our enemies".
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McWay - feel free to clarify this statement.
These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting.
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I did read the link and I saw the guy talk on TV and I've heard other interogators make similar statements.
Please clarify your statement above. What problems do these alternative techniques have? Why should I take your word or point of view over a guy who's actually been performing these interrogations.
You are the one who needs to carify. You are the one who said
Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.
Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc... or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?
I simply wanted to know what exactly you were talking about. I was simply asking you to list these other methods and evidence that they don't have "any of these problems" as you said, and evidence that these other methods produce "better" results, as you said.
But now I finally see that you don't know and that you were simply repeating a statement you heard somebody else make, and you took his word for it without questioning and without looking into what these other methods might be.
Also, what are we even debating here. You've already said you don't condone torture and this thread is about waterboarding which is torture.
It would seem that we're already in agreement
My intention was not to debate you. I was simply asking you questions after I saw you quote the Bible to Christians and impose your interpretation, your morals and values on them, when you constantly complain about Christians doing the same to you.
You also came across as inconsistent and border line hypocritical by suggesting that Christians should love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding, but that Christians should hate your enemies and should kill your enemies when it comes to defending you and your country.
You seem to be suggesting that Christians should NOT follow their faith and the Bible in politics, but that they should follow your interpretation of their faith and your interpretation of the Bible in politics when it comes to waterboarding, in other words, whenever it suits you.
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loco - have you read any of the info in any of the links.
here's my bottom line (which I've said about 5 times now).
Torture is illegal, produces lot's of bad info and actual interrogators have said other methods work better. If I have time I'll cut and paste the info for you to read since you seem unwilling to click a link and read it for yourself.
Haven't you already written that you don't condone torture in any way, shape or form?
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loco - have you read any of the info in any of the links.
here's my bottom line (which I've said about 5 times now).
Torture is illegal, produces lot's of bad info and actual interrogators have said other methods work better. If I
And those other methods are? And they are not torture because? And the evidence that they are better is?
have time I'll cut and paste the info for you to read since you seem unwilling to click a link and read it for yourself.
Yes, please! I clicked the first link when you posted it and it did not work for some reason. I can't always get to Amazon.com, and I wonder why you even posted it to answer my question. Am I supposed to order this book and read it to get the answer? Wouldn't it be easier for you just to tell me, since you read the book already?
Haven't you already written that you don't condone torture in any way, shape or form?
Yeah, so?
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And those other methods are? And they are not torture because? And the evidence that they are better is?
Yes, please! I clicked the first link when you posted it and it did not work for some reason. I can't always get to Amazon.com, and I wonder why you even posted it to answer my question. Am I supposed to order this book and read it to get the answer? Wouldn't it be easier for you just to tell me, since you read the book already?
Yeah, so?
yeah, so .....because you say you're against it in any way, shape or form but you keep suggesting that you're also in favor of it.
here's a link that works and you can google and find multiple other links, video's etc... from people who actually do this stuff.
why are we still having this conversation
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yeah, so .....because you say you're against it in any way, shape or form but you keep suggesting that you're also in favor of it.
How so?
here's a link that works and you can google and find multiple other links, video's etc... from people who actually do this stuff.
Where?
why are we still having this conversation
What's the problem? Can't I ask questions?
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here you go: http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1863053,00.html
I had this links a few posts up so i'm not sure if it's the one that woudln't work for you or not
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Is it okay for a Christian to use waterboarding and torture?
Would Jesus torture his enemies?
WWJD? What would Jesus do?
Bush, a confessed Christian, orderered torture.
Was that ok?
The reason I'm asking is because I haven't seen any of the well known Christians of this board speak out against the practice of torture.
I'm not gonna draw the conclusion that you actually support torture just yet - but it would be interesting to see your thoughts on the matter.
Why or why not you think the use of torture is ok.
Also, what kind of support you can find for your point of view in your faith.
Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan. Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior. There is no good that comes from evil.
For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God. If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything. This is where even most Christians fall short. We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done. But do we really mean that? Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way? I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?" Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?"
I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes. What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business.
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Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan. Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior. There is no good that comes from evil.
For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God. If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything. This is where even most Christians fall short. We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done. But do we really mean that? Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way? I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?" Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?"
I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes. What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business.
fit@40 - you seem very consistent in the application of your beliefs.
I take it you don't agree with McWay that some passages of the bible are simply to be ignored during a time of war?
Since I'm not a christian I'd be curious to see what other vocal christians on this board such as bum or mcway think about your point of view
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Waterboarding or any form of torture is sinful and is of satan. Under no circumstances is it okay for a Christian to participate or condone such behavior. There is no good that comes from evil.
For those who will argue that torture can sometimes save the lives of thousands of people, I say what about turning to God. If we truly believe that He is who He says He is, then we know that He can do anything. This is where even most Christians fall short. We say all the time the Christ is the head of my life and that may God Will be done. But do we really mean that? Is it more accurate that we are Holy as long as it does not get in the way? I have read questions on this board like, "what would you do if your child say he was gay?", or "would you torture someone if it meant saving a loved one or thousands of innocent lives?" Questions like these are really asking, "at what point do you think it is okay to sin?"
I do not wish to convey that I am Holier than thou or I do not make mistakes. What I am saying is that we can not make sin a part of how we do business.
Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general. It's evil. Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil. There was war in heaven. There has been war since the beginning of time. There will be war till the end of time.
I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies. If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc.
I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue. I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it. It's a matter of conscience.
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Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general. It's evil. Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil. There was war in heaven. There has been war since the beginning of time. There will be war till the end of time.
I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies. If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc.
I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue. I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it. It's a matter of conscience.
Is torturing a prisoner the same as fighting an enemy in a battle? Is it the same as being a police officer (to protect and serve?)
If treatment of a captive were the same thing as engaging in a war or a military operation then we would be completely justified in taking all our prisoners, enemy combatants, etc.. and putting them in a prison and then just bombing the shit out of the prison.
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Is torturing a prisoner the same as fighting an enemy in a battle? Is it the same as being a police officer (to protect and serve?)
If treatment of a captive were the same thing as engaging in a war or a military operation then we would be completely justified in taking all our prisoners, enemy combatants, etc.. and putting them in a prison and then just bombing the shit out of the prison.
Depends on the prisoner and what kind of information he may have, what kind of threat he poses, and whether lesser means have been effective. No, torturing a prisoner isn't the same as being a police officer. Who said that??
Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war. It's a part of war.
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Depends on the prisoner and what kind of information he may have, what kind of threat he poses, and whether lesser means have been effective. No, torturing a prisoner isn't the same as being a police officer. Who said that??
Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war. It's a part of war.
you didn't say it but I thought maybe you were drawing some comparison btw fighting in a war/being a police officer and torturing a captive
treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in a war.
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you didn't say it but I thought maybe you were drawing some comparison btw fighting in a war/being a police officer and torturing a captive
treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in a war.
No it isn't. You can't have prisoners of war or detainees without a war/conflict.
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No it isn't. You can't have prisoners of war or detainees without a war/conflict.
Who said you couldn't have prisoners? You specifically said "treatment" of a prisoner was indinguishable from engaging in war and this is completely false. Maybe you meant something different but you treat a prisoner different from someone you're actively fighting
If there weren't then you could just take out a gun and kill them..... In fact you have to feed them, clothe them and not mistreat them. So yes, treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in war.
Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war. It's a part of war.
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Who said you couldn't have prisoners? You specifically said "treatment" of a prisoner was indinguishable from engaging in war and this is completely false. Maybe you meant something different but you treat a prisoner different from someone you're actively fighting
If there weren't then you could just take out a gun and kill them..... In fact you have to feed them, clothe them and not mistreat them. So yes, treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in war.
I'm not talking about treating prisoners the same way you treat someone who is shooting at you. There is obviously a difference. I'm saying you can't have prisoners without a war/conflict. From that standpoint, prisoners (treatment, whatever) is indistinguishable from war, because you can't have one without the other. Of course there are rules of engagement, the Geneva Convention, and other applicable laws.
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I'm not talking about treating prisoners the same way you treat someone who is shooting at you. There is obviously a difference. I'm saying you can't have prisoners without a war/conflict. From that standpoint, prisoners (treatment, whatever) is indistinguishable from war, because you can't have one without the other. Of course there are rules of engagement, the Geneva Convention, and other applicable laws.
well your initial statement was a unclear (at least to me).
an enemy you're trying to kill is not your prisoner until you capture him (yes obvious) and after you capture him you have an obligation to treat him humanely.
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Me? Why me? Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?
What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board? You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies. That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.
By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.
I apologise to you loco - I should not have made a blanket generalization.
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I apologise to you loco - I should not have made a blanket generalization.
No problem, gcb! ;D
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Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general. It's evil. Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil. There was war in heaven. There has been war since the beginning of time. There will be war till the end of time.
I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies. If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc.
I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue. I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it. It's a matter of conscience.
For the most part, I do agree that war is evil. However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary. Anything that is evil is of satan. The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy. This is why I say "for the most." Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil. The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God. I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires. I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.
As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue. I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me. When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make. The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies. He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder. My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies. I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God. He said that nothing came before God. His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood. While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right.
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian. Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church. I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first. This is where the real problem comes into play. When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world. As Christians, that would make us lukewarm. We can never put the world's way before God's way. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
I have written a lot, but not really answered the question. That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself. What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin. Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience. The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin. However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category. These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.
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For the most part, I do agree that war is evil. However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary. Anything that is evil is of satan. The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy. This is why I say "for the most." Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil. The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God. I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires. I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.
As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue. I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me. When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make. The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies. He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder. My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies. I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God. He said that nothing came before God. His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood. While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right.
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian. Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church. I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first. This is where the real problem comes into play. When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world. As Christians, that would make us lukewarm. We can never put the world's way before God's way. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
I have written a lot, but not really answered the question. That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself. What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin. Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience. The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin. However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category. These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.
now this is some fascinating shit
seriously
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For the most part, I do agree that war is evil. However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary. Anything that is evil is of satan. The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy. This is why I say "for the most." Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil. The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God. I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires. I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.
As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue. I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me. When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make. The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies. He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder. My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies. I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God. He said that nothing came before God. His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood. While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right.
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian. Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church. I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first. This is where the real problem comes into play. When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world. As Christians, that would make us lukewarm. We can never put the world's way before God's way. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
I have written a lot, but not really answered the question. That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself. What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin. Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience. The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin. However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category. These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.
Great Post!.
In the battle of Armageddon, whom do you think Jesus will be waring against? ALL the governments of the world. That means the current govs. have a whole lot to worry about. Also, if Jesus is going to do battle with these current govs., who should you as a christian be supporting? Food for thought.
Regarding how christians should view warefare now, below are some secular sources to help clear the matter. Scriputures to support as well.
Matt. 26:52
Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.
Isa. 2:2-4
Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded God's judgment give evidence that he is their God.
2 Cor. 10:3, 4
Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.
Luke 6:27, 28
Yes, christians are too love thier enemies for now.
"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius (Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.), no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity [London, 1947], E. W. Barnes, p. 333).
“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.” (Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254).
“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.” (History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163).
GC/DEA_AGENT
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I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.
I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails.
I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.
If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.
If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.
Have you ever almost drowned? Waterboarding involves having your lungs filled with water; I can assure it is a form of torture and so can he:
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IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs. I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice.
Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner
My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)
I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war
Bible is full of a lot worse things than waterboarding; I recall a passage where a woman is raped, murdered and dissected into several parts.
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Bible is full of a lot worse things than waterboarding; I recall a passage where a woman is raped, murdered and dissected into several parts.
You are probably referring to Judges 19-20. The Bible is merely reporting an incident, not condoning it. The dissecting into 12 parts has a deeper rooted meaning. The woman was already dead. Maybe someone that has more time can explain why this part of the story was done. Still, the God of the Bible did not condone this atrocity.
Just like court documents record rapes,murders, etc. today, yet the court/court officials/employees is/are not the culprit(s).
CG/DEA_AGENT
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You are probably referring to Judges 19-20. The Bible is merely reporting an incident, not condoning it. The dissecting into 12 parts has a deeper rooted meaning. The woman was already dead. Maybe someone that has more time can explain why this part of the story was done. Still, the God of the Bible did not condone this atrocity.
Just like court documents record rapes,murders, etc. today, yet the court/court officials/employees is/are not the culprit(s).
CG/DEA_AGENT
UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.
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UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.
Yeah I've seen it. And it has been explained in detail. Some, no matter what they are given as evidence to the contrary, will always say the opposite.
Most cases of murder and genocide that are reported to be done in God's name, were indeed NOT backed by Yahweh or Jesus. People misuse/commit acts of violence/etc. in His/their name continuously. That's not His/their fault.
GC/DEA_AGENT
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UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.
It is no mystery or secret that God has destroyed those who were disobedient. There are times when He has mercy, and there are times when His wrath is shown. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Romans 9:15).
I challenge you to quote one Scripture whereby God destroyed the innocent. I know from previous posts of your's that you do not believe in God or Christ. However, your posts here reminds me of those who will say, "I do not want to serve a God that kills people." As GC (I believe it was you) pointed out, we were created to serve God. Some where along the way even many Christians have forgotten this.
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It is no mystery or secret that God has destroyed those who were disobedient. There are times when He has mercy, and there are times when His wrath is shown. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Romans 9:15).
I challenge you to quote one Scripture whereby God destroyed the innocent. I know from previous posts of your's that you do not believe in God or Christ. However, your posts here reminds me of those who will say, "I do not want to serve a God that kills people." As GC (I believe it was you) pointed out, we were created to serve God. Some where along the way even many Christians have forgotten this.
you have said that anything of evil is satan...who created satan?
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you have said that anything of evil is satan...who created satan?
It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.
Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.
GC/DEA_AGENT
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It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.
Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.
GC/DEA_AGENT
And prescient and omniscient as he is he knew full well they would 'choose' to sin...logical impossibility and just plain stupid. ::)
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If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
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Ok - I'm curious. If somehow we (or another country) were actually a christian theocracy (or whatevery you mean by a nation of christians) then you're saying that God would "fight our battles"? In what form do you think this help from God would be? Would he ony fight to defend this hypothetical christian nation or would he help us conquer other countries.
BTW - I do agree with you that America was not founded on Christian principles. I know some christians on this board would probably disagree with that but in that regard you and I are in total agreement
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It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.
Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.
GC/DEA_AGENT
These are true words.
Anything that separates from God's Will is evil. Most people are aware of the fact that lucifer (along with a third of the angels) were kicked out of Heaven because he rebelled against God. Most people do not fully understand how that rebellion came to be. Lucifer was the "Son of the morning." How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12) Son of the morning means that lucifer would go before God; he would literally be in his presence. Lucifer had two main functions in Heaven. One was to reflect God's Image (after he was in His presence). Lucifer had many reflective things and pipes on his body. The reflective things would burn God's image onto them. Lucifer would then go back into the presence of the other angels and show God's image. The other angels would bow and pay respect to the image they were seeing. Lucifer grew to see it as they were bowing to him. He liked this sense of power and the rebellion against God came from this. The other main function of lucifer was music (from the pipes in his body). This is why music of the world is so dangerous, but that's for another thread.
Perhaps this is a bit too far into "meat" even for many Christians. Surely it will get me labeled as a lunatic (again) by the non-believers.
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For the most part, I do agree that war is evil. However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary. Anything that is evil is of satan. The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy. This is why I say "for the most." Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil. The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God. I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires. I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.
As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue. I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me. When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make. The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies. He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder. My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies. I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God. He said that nothing came before God. His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood. While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right.
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian. Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church. I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first. This is where the real problem comes into play. When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world. As Christians, that would make us lukewarm. We can never put the world's way before God's way. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
I have written a lot, but not really answered the question. That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself. What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin. Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience. The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin. However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category. These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.
I have a different take Fitt. There are many things that are the result of sin: death, dying, pain, suffering, killing, killing in self defense, etc. I put war in that category.
We cannot simply call ourselves Christians, and citizens of a certain country, then sit back and do nothing to defend the country. We can no more refuse to protect our citizens through armed conflict than we can disarm our law enforcement, stop maintaining the roads, eliminate firefighters, etc. In my view, there is nothing inconsistent about being a Christian and being a member of society, including contributing to the well-being of society.
It really isn't possible to hide in our houses and ask God to defend us. IMO there is always an action requirement on our part. Reminds me of my favorite Homer Simpson prayer: "Lord, if you don't want me to do this, please say absolutely nothing." :)
Much of this is indeed a matter of conscience. Some people think drinking alcohol is a sin. Some don't think it's appropriate to eat whatever you want. Some think you have to dress a certain, way, wear certain headgear, etc. I know some who think Christians should not serve in the military. I actually had a debate with a pastor who served as a chaplain in the military and believed any Christian who served should serve in a noncombat role. I told him he was no different than a grunt who pulls the trigger, because a Chaplain helps a soldier satisfy spiritual needs, which then makes the soldier a more effective killing machine. He disagreed. :)
But at the end of the day, this whole waterboarding thing is pretty silly, especially as some sort of religious litmus test.
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Ok - I'm curious. If somehow we (or another country) were actually a christian theocracy (or whatevery you mean by a nation of christians) then you're saying that God would "fight our battles"? In what form do you think this help from God would be? Would he ony fight to defend this hypothetical christian nation or would he help us conquer other countries.
BTW - I do agree with you that America was not founded on Christian principles. I know some christians on this board would probably disagree with that but in that regard you and I are in total agreement
To answer your questions I must define what a Christian nation would be. It would be a nation that has put the Will of God first. But what does that really mean? What would America have to do to become a Christian nation? Our leaders (political and religious) would have to live and believe in the Word of God. Today we have many who leaders (political and religious) who profess before man that they are Christians, but live sinful lives when they think eyes are not on them. The separation of church and state would be closed. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying; we would not be bound by any laws of God. To suggest so would nullify the Grace we have through the sacrifice Christ made for us. What would happen is man's laws would be made based on the Word of God. For example, as it stands now, there is nothing illegal about two single adults engaging in consentual sex. God says sex should only be between husband and wife. If we were to become a Christian nation, our law would reflect the same.
How would God defend us? There is no doubt we would be protected from other nations. God says if just two or more people come together in His name, He would be there. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) Can you imagine a whole nation coming together in his name? God would not have us to conquer other nations. That is not what He has instructed us to do. He would have us share His Word with the world, but never force it on anyone.
The Bible teaches us that just the opposite is going to happen. Our nation and the rest of the world are going to drift farther and farther away from God.
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I have a different take Fitt. There are many things that are the result of sin: death, dying, pain, suffering, killing, killing in self defense, etc. I put war in that category.
We cannot simply call ourselves Christians, and citizens of a certain country, then sit back and do nothing to defend the country. We can no more refuse to protect our citizens through armed conflict than we can disarm our law enforcement, stop maintaining the roads, eliminate firefighters, etc. In my view, there is nothing inconsistent about being a Christian and being a member of society, including contributing to the well-being of society.
It really isn't possible to hide in our houses and ask God to defend us. IMO there is always an action requirement on our part. Reminds me of my favorite Homer Simpson prayer: "Lord, if you don't want me to do this, please say absolutely nothing." :)
Much of this is indeed a matter of conscience. Some people think drinking alcohol is a sin. Some don't think it's appropriate to eat whatever you want. Some think you have to dress a certain, way, wear certain headgear, etc. I know some who think Christians should not serve in the military. I actually had a debate with a pastor who served as a chaplain in the military and believed any Christian who served should serve in a noncombat role. I told him he was no different than a grunt who pulls the trigger, because a Chaplain helps a soldier satisfy spiritual needs, which then makes the soldier a more effective killing machine. He disagreed. :)
But at the end of the day, this whole waterboarding thing is pretty silly, especially as some sort of religious litmus test.
There are many things that are the result of sin: death, dying, pain, suffering, killing, killing in self defense, etc. I put war in that category.
B-Bum, I am not certain of your intent for this statement. You say that these things are the result of sin, and you include war with them. Was it your intent to say that killing in self-defense and killing in war are the same, and that neither is a sin?
I do agree that Christians have the responsibility to help defend our nation, but do we help defend in all situations? I was a soldier, so I know that, for the most part, we do not get to chose which battles we fight. There is the option of being a conscientious objector, but I must admit that I know very little about it. We know from the Bible that God will have us engage in war, but these wars are on His behalf. The war we are engaged in this very moment has nothing to do with God. This is where it gets extremely complicated, and I readily admit I do not have all of the answers. I retire a little over two years ago, but I did not have to go to the war. In fact, in my 20 years of service, I did not serve in any conflicts or wars. A trusted minister tells me that God had His hand in that. I do not know if that is true or not, but I know that I did nothing personally to avoid serving. Had I been chosen to go, I would have gone. I would not have told the lie that I was there because I wanted to help liberate the Iraqi people from Hussein or that I was there because of the war on terror. I do not wish to dig deep into politics, but facts are facts. In my opinion, if we really wanted to fight the terrorist, we would have sent more troops into Afghanistan early on, and we would have pressured the Saudis to do more....I know, the oil.
You say that this can be about conscience, but what does God say about it. God gives instructions on eating, drinking alcohol and the wearing of clothes. Maybe I do somewhat understand what you mean by conscience. A nun wears a habit to show (I would assume) modesty. When I was still of the world, I saw pornographic pictures of women wearing pieces of a habit. You may also be right in that people who think like me simply do not belong in the military. Again, I still do not have the answers on this issue. Rest assured I will because I am seeking the answer from God.
May God Bless you.
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To answer your questions I must define what a Christian nation would be. It would be a nation that has put the Will of God first. But what does that really mean? What would America have to do to become a Christian nation? Our leaders (political and religious) would have to live and believe in the Word of God. Today we have many who leaders (political and religious) who profess before man that they are Christians, but live sinful lives when they think eyes are not on them. The separation of church and state would be closed. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying; we would not be bound by any laws of God. To suggest so would nullify the Grace we have through the sacrifice Christ made for us. What would happen is man's laws would be made based on the Word of God. For example, as it stands now, there is nothing illegal about two single adults engaging in consentual sex. God says sex should only be between husband and wife. If we were to become a Christian nation, our law would reflect the same.
How would God defend us? There is no doubt we would be protected from other nations. God says if just two or more people come together in His name, He would be there. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) Can you imagine a whole nation coming together in his name? God would not have us to conquer other nations. That is not what He has instructed us to do. He would have us share His Word with the world, but never force it on anyone.
The Bible teaches us that just the opposite is going to happen. Our nation and the rest of the world are going to drift farther and farther away from God.
Shocking how deluded some people can be...must take real effort.
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Shocking how deluded some people can be...must take real effort.
I ask you once again, why do you post here? You have made your point time and time again. You have spewed your lies and foolishness, yet you still come back. I say it is to push the agenda of he who inspires you. Whatever the case may be, I still have you in my prayers.
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I ask you once again, why do you post here? You have made your point time and time again. You have spewed your lies and foolishness, yet you still come back. I say it is to push the agenda of he who inspires you. Whatever the case may be, I still have you in my prayers.
Yeah...I get paid $1000 an hour by Beelzebub himself.... ::)
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To answer your questions I must define what a Christian nation would be. It would be a nation that has put the Will of God first. But what does that really mean? What would America have to do to become a Christian nation? Our leaders (political and religious) would have to live and believe in the Word of God. Today we have many who leaders (political and religious) who profess before man that they are Christians, but live sinful lives when they think eyes are not on them. The separation of church and state would be closed. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying; we would not be bound by any laws of God. To suggest so would nullify the Grace we have through the sacrifice Christ made for us. What would happen is man's laws would be made based on the Word of God. For example, as it stands now, there is nothing illegal about two single adults engaging in consentual sex. God says sex should only be between husband and wife. If we were to become a Christian nation, our law would reflect the same.
How would God defend us? There is no doubt we would be protected from other nations. God says if just two or more people come together in His name, He would be there. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) Can you imagine a whole nation coming together in his name? God would not have us to conquer other nations. That is not what He has instructed us to do. He would have us share His Word with the world, but never force it on anyone.
The Bible teaches us that just the opposite is going to happen. Our nation and the rest of the world are going to drift farther and farther away from God.
ok....where to start....?
putting aside for the moment that from my completely secular perspective, statements like this sound completely nutty (no offense intended), can you "imagine a whole nation coming together in his name". I don't even know what that means. The super religious christians on this board can't even agree on basic stuff involving their own religion so how would an entire nation ever get on the same page? Also, why does God even care about "nations". Could't it just be a city of people or even just a "compound". Kind of like the Branch Davidians or that group in Texas where all the woman wear the same clothes and have tons of kids (can't recall the name). As long as they were all true believer in the "right way" wouldn't God recognize them and defend them from all enemies
btw - just for some context, I'm curiuos if you were indoctrinated into this belief system at a young age or if you adopted it later in life.
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ok....where to start....?
putting aside for the moment that from my completely secular perspective, statements like this sound completely nutty (no offense intended), can you "imagine a whole nation coming together in his name". I don't even know what that means. The super religious christians on this board can't even agree on basic stuff involving their own religion so how would an entire nation ever get on the same page? Also, why does God even care about "nations". Could't it just be a city of people or even just a "compound". Kind of like the Branch Davidians or that group in Texas where all the woman wear the same clothes and have tons of kids (can't recall the name). As long as they were all true believer in the "right way" wouldn't God recognize them and defend them from all enemies
btw - just for some context, I'm curiuos if you were indoctrinated into this belief system at a young age or if you adopted it later in life.
Absolutely no offense taken.
A nation coming together in His name simply means a nation that is unified in putting God's Will first. The scripture I quote speaks of two of more coming together in prayer and/or praise and worship. Certainly it is physically impossible for a nation to do this at one time. However, if a nation were to truly put God's Will first, there would be far more coming together in His Name. I do agree with you in that many Christians disagree on a lot of issues. This comes from a lack of understanding, pushing one's own agenda, and tricks of satan. As you stated, you are secular, therefore, what I propose is going to sound foolish to you.
Why does God care about a nation? We were created by God and for God. This does not apply to a city, town or even a nation. It applies to everyone. Groups like the branch davidians do not represent Christianity. You may ask how can I say who represents Christians. That would be a very good question. As Christians, we have really diluted the Word of God. We have added man-made ideas and practices. If you want to know a true Christian, find someone who only wants the Will of God to be done. You asked, "As long as they were all true believer in the "right way" wouldn't God recognize them and defend them from all enemies" God does defend His followers. That does not mean that we will not suffer or be persecuted. God does things in His time, not ours. The people of Israel suffer 400 years in Egypt before God freed them. I cannot explain why He chose to wait. Whenever I do not understand things about God, I do one of two things. I either seek answers through prayer, or I simply "do not lean to my own understanding." I am quite sure that will sound nutty to you too.
For the record, there is no such thing as a super religious Christian. Either a person is a Christian or he or she is not.
I have spoken about my Christian background in other threads. I was not raised in a Christian home. I did not go to Church as a child and teenager; though I had some religious experiences. I readily admit that there is much for me to learn about the Father and His Son.
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For the record, there is no such thing as a super religious Christian. Either a person is a Christian or he or she is not.
I have spoken about my Christian background in other threads. I was not raised in a Christian home. I did not go to Church as a child and teenager; though I had some religious experiences. I readily admit that there is much for me to learn about the Father and His Son.
can a Christian have fundamental disagreement with your point of view and still (from your perspective) be a Christian?
I haven't read your other threads but I'm curious if you came to become a Christian as a way of overcoming/replacing some problem in your life such as alcholism or something else. Just wondering?
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There are many things that are the result of sin: death, dying, pain, suffering, killing, killing in self defense, etc. I put war in that category.
B-Bum, I am not certain of your intent for this statement. You say that these things are the result of sin, and you include war with them. Was it your intent to say that killing in self-defense and killing in war are the same, and that neither is a sin?
I do agree that Christians have the responsibility to help defend our nation, but do we help defend in all situations? I was a soldier, so I know that, for the most part, we do not get to chose which battles we fight. There is the option of being a conscientious objector, but I must admit that I know very little about it. We know from the Bible that God will have us engage in war, but these wars are on His behalf. The war we are engaged in this very moment has nothing to do with God. This is where it gets extremely complicated, and I readily admit I do not have all of the answers. I retire a little over two years ago, but I did not have to go to the war. In fact, in my 20 years of service, I did not serve in any conflicts or wars. A trusted minister tells me that God had His hand in that. I do not know if that is true or not, but I know that I did nothing personally to avoid serving. Had I been chosen to go, I would have gone. I would not have told the lie that I was there because I wanted to help liberate the Iraqi people from Hussein or that I was there because of the war on terror. I do not wish to dig deep into politics, but facts are facts. In my opinion, if we really wanted to fight the terrorist, we would have sent more troops into Afghanistan early on, and we would have pressured the Saudis to do more....I know, the oil.
You say that this can be about conscience, but what does God say about it. God gives instructions on eating, drinking alcohol and the wearing of clothes. Maybe I do somewhat understand what you mean by conscience. A nun wears a habit to show (I would assume) modesty. When I was still of the world, I saw pornographic pictures of women wearing pieces of a habit. You may also be right in that people who think like me simply do not belong in the military. Again, I still do not have the answers on this issue. Rest assured I will because I am seeking the answer from God.
May God Bless you.
Yes I view killing in self defense and killing in war the same and I don't think either one is a sin.
In my view, if a person who happens to be Christian joins the military, he or she has an obligation to defend the country "in all situations." You either commit to serve and help support the mission, or don't join.
Many moons ago when I was joining the military, the recruiter asked me if I was a conscientious objector. I said "I don't know, what does that mean?" He then asked: "if someone was holding a gun to your head and was about to pull the trigger, and you had a gun in your hand and could pull the trigger first, would you?" I said "yes." He then said "then you're not a conscientious objector." :)
What does God say about conscience? I think it's right here:
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
James 4:17
This is why Christians don't (and don't have to) agree on all things. Even my wife and I have different views on some spiritual things.
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I ask you once again, why do you post here? You have made your point time and time again. You have spewed your lies and foolishness, yet you still come back. I say it is to push the agenda of he who inspires you. Whatever the case may be, I still have you in my prayers.
I agree. Deicide why do you post here? Nearly all of your posts on this board are little more than one-line insults regarding God, Christianity, etc.
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And prescient and omniscient as he is he knew full well they would 'choose' to sin...logical impossibility and just plain stupid. ::)
Hey, I didn't mean to touch a nerve here. Just because God has these qualities doesn't mean He abuses them. He can ALSO choose to use them when He wishes, right? Still, even if God did use those (qualities) in these cases, it was undoubtedly a solid choice that the demons, satan, Adam and Eve made ,whom were all created perfect.
God did not make them commit the sin regardless if He used His powers to know ahead of time or not. They are still guilty as charged. How can that be logically impossible?
GC/DEA_AGENT
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I just wanted to throw a question out to the believers (this is not for the "Decides" and the like). In these wars that are being fought now on earth, if a christian were to join the military of a nation, how would he/she know that they would not be involved in the killing of one of their brothers?
EX. U.S.A. soldier, Iraq soldier. How would the two know whether the other were christian brothers or not? What about the women, children, citizens who are also of the same belief, how would those soldiers know if they were killing their christian brother or sister in those scenarios?. Just asking?
In my opinion, God would not back a military, which is using His own people to kill his own would he? See what I mean here? Would God actually have His own people killing each other?
CG/DEA_AGENT
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can a Christian have fundamental disagreement with your point of view and still (from your perspective) be a Christian?
I haven't read your other threads but I'm curious if you came to become a Christian as a way of overcoming/replacing some problem in your life such as alcholism or something else. Just wondering?
I think there are always going to be some disagreement amongst Christians because of the human factor. However, all Christians must do the following, without exception:
- Believe that God is who He says He is
- Believe that Jesus is the son of God
- Believe that Jesus died, and rose again for our sins
- Confess by mouth that you are a sinner and accept Jesus as your Saviour
- Know that Christ is the only way to the Father
My relationship with Jesus is not a result of any personal problems I had to overcome. In fact, my childhood and teenage years were, from a world's perspective, very good. I come from a middle-class family, I was a jock (despite being small in stature) in high school, I was voted most popular male my senior year*, and I enjoyed a similar experience when I went off to college. Do not misunderstand me, I had my share of ups and downs, but for the most part, I was a happy and well-adjusted kid. I put an asterisk by most popular because there is a caveat. I come from a small southern town and we were still practicing a version of Jim Crowism. I was voted the most popular black male of my senior class. We had a black and white version of everything.
Throughout my life I have had religious experiences. For whatever reasons, there have been things revealed to me. I know that must sound crazy to a non-believer, but those who know God know what I am talking about. There was a thread about miracles on this board. I was tempted to share some of the ones I have seen, but I just do not think this is the place to do that. I will share the first one I had because it was shortly after that when I began to "know" things. When I was about seven years old, I had my left leg run over by my father's truck. My father was backing into the yard, and I was sitting on the little side step of the truck. He was going very slow. I fell off the truck. The thing I remember was being slightly under the truck, but thinking I had enough time to clear the truck. Some how it seemed as though I started moving in slow motion. When I knew the truck was going to run over my leg, I just looked away. The front tire passed over my leg, but t did not break my leg, nor did it even break the skin. My mother witnessed the whole thing. In fact, she was screaming for my father to stopped. I got up and walked away. My dad knew that he had ran over something, but refused to believe it was my leg. My mother was screaming and crying, but when I took her hand, she stopped. For the next few days, she actually seemed a little afraid of me. At least that is how it seemed to me at the time. We never really talked about it until the next "event" happened.
The things I began to see shorty after that are almost unbelievable....well maybe unbelievable to most. I wish that I could tell you that I got right with God after that, or even later as a young teen. The truth is I have tried running away from God for quite some time. I know how tempting the pleasures of this world can be. I have lived the lie of pretending to be a Christian. I have fooled my people for a number of years (including some ministers) that I was saved. This is one of the reasons I have extreme patience with people like yourself. You do not know Christ; you are a sinner, therefore, you are going to do what sinners do. I knew Christ, but still sinned. That made me worse than what you are.
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Yes I view killing in self defense and killing in war the same and I don't think either one is a sin.
In my view, if a person who happens to be Christian joins the military, he or she has an obligation to defend the country "in all situations." You either commit to serve and help support the mission, or don't join.
Many moons ago when I was joining the military, the recruiter asked me if I was a conscientious objector. I said "I don't know, what does that mean?" He then asked: "if someone was holding a gun to your head and was about to pull the trigger, and you had a gun in your hand and could pull the trigger first, would you?" I said "yes." He then said "then you're not a conscientious objector." :)
What does God say about conscience? I think it's right here:
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
James 4:17
This is why Christians don't (and don't have to) agree on all things. Even my wife and I have different views on some spiritual things.
As I think more about this, it may be possible that you and I are thinking somewhat the same thing. A Christian soldier would be obligated to serve, but he or she must remain a Christian first. For example, a Christian would never be a part of things like the Abu prison scandal, the sexual assaults on fellow soldiers and Iraqi/Afghanistan women, and the intentional killing of noncombatants. Even with these exceptions, I am still not sure I would say "in all situations." Think of when Christ is coming back to war against nations. If America is one of those nations, and I believe she will be, would a Christian soldier still do battle?
I think your recruiter may have been wrong about conscientious objector. I was told that it is conscientious is an individual who, on religious, moral or ethical grounds, refuses to participate as a combatant in war. This is pretty much the standard definition of it, but I got different views (some like what you were told) from different commands. I never had any intentions of being one, but I was always curious. As I stated in another thread, I never went to any conflicts or wars during my 20 year career.
You are correct in that James 4:17 is about conscience. However, this is about knowing that something is a sin and still choosing to do it. A good example is the unforgivable sin. Those who commit it unaware are not held accountable. Those who know it is unforgivable and still commit the sin are damned.
Again, I agree that Christians are not going to agree on everything. Much of that has to do with understanding and growth in the Lord, the measure of faith we have, and many other human factors. However, the list that I provided to Strawman can not be waivered. Do you agree?
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I just wanted to throw a question out to the believers (this is not for the "Decides" and the like). In these wars that are being fought now on earth, if a christian were to join the military of a nation, how would he/she know that they would not be involved in the killing of one of their brothers?
EX. U.S.A. soldier, Iraq soldier. How would the two know whether the other were christian brothers or not? What about the women, children, citizens who are also of the same belief, how would those soldiers know if they were killing their christian brother or sister in those scenarios?. Just asking?
In my opinion, God would not back a military, which is using His own people to kill his own would he? See what I mean here? Would God actually have His own people killing each other?
CG/DEA_AGENT
Good question. This is why I think it has to be about why a war is being fought. Most wars (including many of those for "religious" reasons) are fought because of man's greed. if we were a Christian nation, we would fight for Christian reasons. B-Bum has made some very good points about Christians serving in the military. You make a good point now. I simply do not have the answers. I have stated a few times that I never had to go to any of the conflicts or wars during my career. However, with this current war, I worked with the strategic satellites that provided direct support for the troops on the ground. That makes me a participant in the war. As a civilian, I am still working for the military. Much of what I do support our troops in combat. This is why I am praying about this issue. I truly want to know what is right in the eyes of God.
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fitt - I really appreciate the effort and details. I have a lot of questions.
let's start here
I don't know what you mean by this statement
I think there are always going to be some disagreement amongst Christians because of the human factor. However, all Christians must do the following, without exception:
Believe that God is who He says He is
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fitt - I really appreciate the effort and details. I have a lot of questions.
let's start here
I don't know what you mean by this statement
For us, it means that we are incapable of understanding Who and What God truly is. We are to accept Him for what He has told us He is. He is the creator of all that there is. He is the beginning and the end (the alpha and the omega). As humans, this makes no logical sense to us. When Moses spoke with God, he told Him that the people would ask His Name. God replied, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14)
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For us, it means that we are incapable of understanding Who and What God truly is. We are to accept Him for what He has told us He is. He is the creator of all that there is. He is the beginning and the end (the alpha and the omega). As humans, this makes no logical sense to us. When Moses spoke with God, he told Him that the people would ask His Name. God replied, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/z_killemall/atheism_motivational_poster_12.jpg)
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How the Faithful Justify Torture
The more you go to church, the more you approve of torture.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2009/05/why_the_faithful_approve_of_torture.html?hpid=talkbox1
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How the Faithful Justify Torture
The more you go to church, the more you approve of torture.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2009/05/why_the_faithful_approve_of_torture.html?hpid=talkbox1
If all of the churches in all of the world supported torture, they would not be following God's Will. Christians are sometimes the biggest problem Christianity has. There are some Christians out there who only want God's Will to be done.
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If all of the churches in all of the world supported torture, they would not be following God's Will. Christians are sometimes the biggest problem Christianity has. There are some Christians out there who only want God's Will to be done.
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You are trying so hard to be disliked. Sorry, but I have nothing but love for you. May God Bless you.
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For us, it means that we are incapable of understanding Who and What God truly is. We are to accept Him for what He has told us He is. He is the creator of all that there is. He is the beginning and the end (the alpha and the omega). As humans, this makes no logical sense to us. When Moses spoke with God, he told Him that the people would ask His Name. God replied, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14)
I can see looking metaphorically at the unknown ground of being as the beginning and end, alpha and omega etc.. just as I can see Buddhist concept of Sunyata of form being emptiness, emptiness being form, etc..
Personally, I can't understand the idea of a god telling us anything. Do you think that the being that Moses allegedly met was also the "god" that is referred to as the alpha and omega. Do you think they could be two unrelated things or that the story might be completely altered from what actually happened or even just made up? (I'm guessing not but I just thought I'd ask).
I'm trying hard to find a way to even understand the first thing on your list of what christians must do mostly because I'll never believe the rest of the list which you've listed:
-Believe that Jesus is the son of God (I think if he existed at all he was just an enlighted being that we've created a myth around as we know humans are prone to do)
- Believe that Jesus died, and rose again for our sins (I believe if he ever actually lived then he most certainly died but nothing more)
- Confess by mouth that you are a sinner and accept Jesus as your Saviour (can't happen for reasons stated above)
- Know that Christ is the only way to the Father (ditto - see above)
from your perspective am I basically screwed and headed for eternity in hell
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from your perspective am I basically screwed and headed for eternity in hell
According to the Word of God, yes, you are headed to hell. It is not for me to say who will end up in hell. I can only tell you what the Word of God says.
Moses spoke with the God of Abraham; who is Jesus' Father.
Why do you have so many questions concerning Christianity? It is obviously a concept that you do not believe. Just curious. I do not mind answer your questions (or anyone's) because I do it for the benefit of those who are truly interested.
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According to the Word of God, yes, you are headed to hell. It is not for me to say who will end up in hell. I can only tell you what the Word of God says.
Moses spoke with the God of Abraham; who is Jesus' Father.
Why do you have so many questions concerning Christianity? It is obviously a concept that you do not believe. Just curious. I do not mind answer your questions (or anyone's) because I do it for the benefit of those who are truly interested.
I don't believe it at all but I'm still interested in what others believe and also how they arrive at their beliefs.
You seem rational and well spoken but the stuff you are saying seems (to me) to be completely crazy.
We could live next door to each other and essentially share the exact same environment yet you are living in a world that looks nothing like the world I'm living in.
I find that interesting.
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I don't believe it at all but I'm still interested in what others believe and also how they arrive at their beliefs.
You seem rational and well spoken but the stuff you are saying seems (to me) to be completely crazy.
We could live next door to each other and essentially share the exact same environment yet you are living in a world that looks nothing like the world I'm living in.
I find that interesting.
I like this response...even with you calling my responses crazy. :D
My next door neighbors do not believe in God. We do not "hang out" together, but we are good neighbors to each other.
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I like this response...even with you calling my responses crazy. :D
My next door neighbors does not believe in God. We do not "hang out" together, but we are good neighbors to each other.
well I did say "seems to me" to be completely crazy
from your perspective I'm headed to an eternity in hell and yet I could be "saved" (the good news right?) if I only I could share your beliefs and yet I can't and you might see that as crazy too
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(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/z_killemall/atheism_motivational_poster_12.jpg)
I'm guessing here, but is there anything that you don't understand completely? If there is/are things you don't understand, do you place yourself into this category as well? You seem to be inflated with overwhelming pride. You kinda remind me of John Gotti. "Pride comes before a fall".
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Good question. This is why I think it has to be about why a war is being fought. Most wars (including many of those for "religious" reasons) are fought because of man's greed. if we were a Christian nation, we would fight for Christian reasons. B-Bum has made some very good points about Christians serving in the military. You make a good point now. I simply do not have the answers. I have stated a few times that I never had to go to any of the conflicts or wars during my career. However, with this current war, I worked with the strategic satellites that provided direct support for the troops on the ground. That makes me a participant in the war. As a civilian, I am still working for the military. Much of what I do support our troops in combat. This is why I am praying about this issue. I truly want to know what is right in the eyes of God.
In the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures, the wars fought that are mentioned there, were specifically directed by God Himself. Once Christ came, he gave the new covenant. Nowhere can we find where Jesus commissioned war after the new covenant was given. Christians of that time got out of the military once they became believers. The only war mentioned in the Greek scriptures is the battle of Armageddon, which is near by. This war is said to be only fought by Christ and his angles. Christians are told not to get involved because Christ will fight for them. Just some food for thought, friend. Peace!
GC/DEA_AGENT
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In the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures, the wars fought that are mentioned there, were specifically directed by God Himself. Once Christ came, he gave the new covenant. Nowhere can we find where Jesus commissioned war after the new covenant was given. Christians of that time got out of the military once they became believers. The only war mentioned in the Greek scriptures is the battle of Armageddon, which is near by. This war is said to be only fought by Christ and his angles. Christians are told not to get involved because Christ will fight for them. Just some food for thought, friend. Peace!
GC/DEA_AGENT
Where is this supported Scripturally? Do you also believe that Christians should not be policemen? This is indeed food for thought, and I thank you.
As for Decide, just pray for him. I think he posts the way he does because he is hurting and he needs the attention. It is either that, or he is truly evil. In any event, let us just pray for him.
God Bless you,
Fitt
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well I did say "seems to me" to be completely crazy
from your perspective I'm headed to an eternity in hell and yet I could be "saved" (the good news right?) if I only I could share your beliefs and yet I can't and you might see that as crazy too
I do not see the choices you have made as crazy. I see them as a person who is being deceived. Satan is the master of lies and trickery. He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible. As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world.
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I do not see the choices you have made as crazy. I see them as a person who is being deceived. Satan is the master of lies and trickery. He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible. As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world.
ok so Satan has hidden the "truth" from me?
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Where is this supported Scripturally?
Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.
"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.
Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”
Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know, I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.
Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?
Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
Do you also believe that Christians should not be policemen?
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.
This is indeed food for thought, and I thank you.
NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)
As for Decide, just pray for him. I think he posts the way he does because he is hurting and he needs the attention. It is either that, or he is truly evil. In any event, let us just pray for him.
Will do!
God Bless you,
Likewise, friend, likewise!
GC/DEA_AGENT
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I do not see the choices you have made as crazy. I see them as a person who is being deceived. Satan is the master of lies and trickery. He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible. As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world.
seems kind of shitty for god to condemn me to eternal suffering when I'm really just a victim of the devils lies and trickery.
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seems kind of shitty for god to condemn me to eternal suffering when I'm really just a victim of the devils lies and trickery.
The truth is you do not have to be a victim of him. God sent His only Son to die for your sins. All you have to do is accept Him.
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Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.
"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.
Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”
Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know, I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.
Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?
Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.
NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)
Will do!
Likewise, friend, likewise!
GC/DEA_AGENT
You may have planted the seeds I need to hear. I want to take some time and go to the Word with what you have provided. I do not want "Fitt" to come up with a response. Thank you my brother and God Bless.
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The truth is you do not have to be a victim of him. God sent His only Son to die for your sins. All you have to do is accept Him.
well I've already explained why I can't do that. Sounds like I won't be able to use the devils lies and trickery as an excuse. Honestly, I can't actually remember meeting the devil so I'm not sure when he would have lied or tricked me.
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Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.
"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.
Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”
Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know, I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.
Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?
Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.
NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)
Will do!
Likewise, friend, likewise!
GC/DEA_AGENT
Good post, GC!
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Good post, GC!
I can't figure out if GC takes this stuff seriously or not.
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I can't figure out if GC takes this stuff seriously or not.
He's crazier than a loon.
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He's crazier than a loon.
I thought I detected a subtle mockage but perhaps I'm wrong
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Torture debate prompts evangelical soul-searching
Among evangelical leaders, debate over the use of harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists has prompted introspection about faith, ethics, the Golden Rule, just wars, Jack Bauer and Jesus.
A number of evangelical leaders have made opposition to torture without exceptions a moral cause over the past three years, part of a broadening of the movement's agenda beyond traditional culture war issues. Others in the movement, including many Christian right leaders, have largely resisted or stayed silent.
Now, President Barack Obama's release of Bush administration memos justifying harsh interrogation techniques and a new poll showing white evangelicals more sympathetic to torture have leaders taking stock of whether evangelical opinion has shifted on the topic.
"I have said before that torture is like a bone caught in our throat — we can't swallow it and we can't spit it out," said David Gushee, a professor of Christian ethics at Mercer University in Atlanta and president of Evangelicals for Human Rights. "I think we're still there."
The poll data from a survey of 742 U.S. adults released April 29 by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found 62 percent of white evangelical Protestants said torture of a suspected terrorist could be often or sometimes justified to obtain important information.
By contrast, 51 percent of white non-Hispanic Catholics, 46 percent of white mainline Protestants and 40 percent of the religiously unaffiliated held that position.
Those who attend religious services at least once a week were more likely than those who rarely or never attend to say torture is sometimes or often justified in that scenario — 54 percent to 42 percent.
The findings immediately prompted questions for evangelicals: How exactly did poll participants define torture, since the survey did not? Did evangelicals reach their conclusions because of their religious beliefs, or their politics or ideological leanings? How do you untangle those factors from each other?
Pew officials later updated the analysis to emphasize that religion "is only one of many factors" — and that political party and ideology are much better predictors of opinions on torture than religion and most other demographic factors. At the same time, the report noted, religion itself can play a strong role in shaping partisanship and ideology.
"My experience is that people who are comfortable supporting torture support it because they think it's going to produce information our country needs," said the Rev. Richard Killmer, a Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) minister and executive director of the interfaith National Religious Campaign Against Torture, which formed in 2006. "I don't think they would shy away from use of the word 'torture.'"
"During the last eight years, people have been concerned about this ticking time bomb thing and Jack Bauer and '24' and all that," said Killmer, referring to the TV drama in which the protagonist takes a by-any-means-necessary approach to extracting information from terror suspects.
Among evangelicals, Gushee has been a leading anti-torture advocate. He led the effort to draft, in 2006, "An Evangelical Declaration Against Torture: Protecting Human Rights in an Age of Terror." The document, which has 250 signatures, renounced torture and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees."
Last fall, a poll commissioned by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University found that 44 percent of white Southern evangelicals rely on life experience and common sense to form opinions on torture. By contrast, 28 percent said they relied on Christian teachings or beliefs.
Even so, Gushee said he senses a "deep moral, spiritual and theological problem" in evangelical support for torture.
"There is a version of Christianity in America that I think is not adequately committed to the Bible's teachings about the sacredness of every human life, including the lives of our enemies," Gushee said. "It's also insufficiently committed to the peacemaking teachings of Jesus and the example of Jesus as one who did not resort to violence or cruelty to accomplish any of his goals and instead suffered violence instead of inflicting it."
Gary Bauer, a former Republican presidential candidate affiliated with several Christian right groups over the years, said the discussion should not come down to "Would Jesus torture?"
I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.
"There are a lot of things Jesus wouldn't do because he's the son of God," he said. "I can't imagine Jesus being a Marine or a policeman or a bank president, for that matter. The more appropriate question is, 'What is a follower of Jesus permitted to do?'"
Bauer said the answer is "it depends" — but the moral equation changes when the suspect is not a soldier captured on a battlefield but a terrorist who may have knowledge of an impending attack. He said he does not consider water-boarding — a form of interrogation that simulates drowning — to be torture.
"I think if we believe the person we have can give us information to stop thousands of Americans from being killed, it would be morally suspect to not use harsh tactics to get that information," Bauer said.
Under Christianity's just-war tradition, recognized political authorities have the responsibility to protect the innocent from grave harm, said Keith Pavlischek, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, evangelical scholar and retired Marine colonel.
That means not just lives that would be lost in an attack, but the justice, order and peace of the broader international community at risk from terrorism, said Pavlischek, a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, a conservative denomination.
If authorities believe a detainee has information about an imminent attack, it's morally acceptable to use coercion, inflict pain, cause discomfort and use force in an attempt to prevent the attack, he said.
But it is not black and white in determining when interrogation tactics cross the line to unjust torture, Pavlischek said. He said while evidence exists that water-boarding might be out of line, "it's a hard call." Similarly, sleep deprivation can also be used to extremes and cross the line, but not always.
Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest evangelical church body, revealed this month that he believes water-boarding is torture and never justified. He said part of his conclusion is based on his belief that it's "very likely to cause permanent psychological damage."
"It seems to me once you accept the 'end justifies the means' argument, then you have taken a step onto a very steep and slippery slope to dark and dangerous place," Land said.
He emphasized that Christian tenets that guide the debate — including the Golden Rule, or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" — can be applied differently. He said that while terrorists should not be "mistreated," neither do they deserve protections afforded prisoners of war by the Geneva Convention.
Land said some harsh interrogation techniques — such as slapping with an open hand — can be morally permissible.
I don't think it's a Christian issue. It's a safety issue. I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives.
David Neff, editor of Christianity Today magazine and chairman of the board of the National Association of Evangelicals, which endorsed the evangelical declaration against torture, said torture is not a subject preached at most evangelical churches. So white evangelical support for torture is more likely rooted in their strong allegiance the Republican Party.
"There is a sense of, 'We trust this administration that was leading us through this difficult time post-911, and if they say we have to do this, chances are that sometimes it's necessary,'" Neff said.
He added: "It think it is extremely important for the U.S. government, for our own security, to operate as ethically as possible, because what we sow, we reap."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_religion_today
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For the most part, I do agree that war is evil. However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary. Anything that is evil is of satan. The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy. This is why I say "for the most." Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil. The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God. I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires. I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.
As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue. I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me. When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make. The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies. He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder. My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies. I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God. He said that nothing came before God. His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood. While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right.
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles. America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles. From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian. Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church. I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first. This is where the real problem comes into play. When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world. As Christians, that would make us lukewarm. We can never put the world's way before God's way. If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
I have written a lot, but not really answered the question. That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself. What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin. Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience. The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin. However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category. These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.
Thank You!!! Finally a Christian willing to both see the truth, speak it, and not run away from it.
Why Christians insist on denying the fact that the USA was not founded on Christian principles is beyond me.
It's almost as if some of them believe that were it more widely known, people wouldn't convert to it, or embrace it.
Absolute nonsense. If someone wants to embrace Christianity, they will, and whether or not it was at the foundation of the developing nation would be completely irrelevant.
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Thank You!!! Finally a Christian willing to both see the truth, speak it, and not run away from it.
Why Christians insist on denying the fact that the USA was not founded on Christian principles is beyond me.
It's almost as if some of them believe that were it more widely known, people wouldn't convert to it, or embrace it.
Absolute nonsense. If someone wants to embrace Christianity, they will, and whether or not it was at the foundation of the developing nation would be completely irrelevant.
That the US wasn't founded on Christian principles is debatable. There are plenty of reasons to believe that it was.
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That the US wasn't founded on Christian principles is debatable. There are plenty of reasons to believe that it was.
From my observation, most who have taken a position on this, do so simply to present that position as a form of higher validation for their personal religious beliefs, rather than as a conclusion formed based upon where the evidence led them. I consider that to be a transparently foolish debate tactic, ...especially when applied to something so personal and so intimate as one's own spiritual path. It makes me question not only the credibility of the argument, but also the credibility, character and wisdom of those who would take such a seemingly perverse, almost idolatrous position, ...and does nothing to validate the overall underlying, although unstated, premise motivating their argument.
While I may hold certain beliefs to be right, just and proper, ...it takes nothing away from the rightness, or justness of my position, to acknowledge that others, even perhaps those who I or others may admire, may not have believed as I do. Does such acknowledgement mean I can no longer admire or respect them, their accomplishments or their efforts? Do I first have to make them over in my own image? It's almost as if any acknowledgent that the person didn't believe as I do, somehow diminishes my beliefs. Can I not accept that they were not subject to the same forces that shaped my outlook? I may have a deep respect for Thomas Jefferson, ...doesn't mean I'm going to run out get some slaves. And while there are things about Madonna I very much respect, ...I'm not going to run out there and screw Dennis Rodman, or my personal trainer.
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From my observation, most who have taken a position on this, do so simply to present that position as a form of higher validation for their personal religious beliefs, rather than as a conclusion formed based upon where the evidence led them. I consider that to be a transparently foolish debate tactic, ...especially when applied to something so personal and so intimate as one's own spiritual path. It makes me question not only the credibility of the argument, but also the credibility, character and wisdom of those who would take such a seemingly perverse, almost idolatrous position, ...and does nothing to validate the overall underlying, although unstated, premise motivating their argument.
While I may hold certain beliefs to be right, just and proper, ...it takes nothing away from the rightness, or justness of my position, to acknowledge that others, even perhaps those who I or others may admire, may not have believed as I do. Does such acknowledgement mean I can no longer admire or respect them, their accomplishments or their efforts? Do I first have to make them over in my own image? It's almost as if any acknowledgent that the person didn't believe as I do, somehow diminishes my beliefs. Can I not accept that they were not subject to the same forces that shaped my outlook? I may have a deep respect for Thomas Jefferson, ...doesn't mean I'm going to run out get some slaves. And while there are things about Madonna I very much respect, ...I'm not going to run out there and screw Dennis Rodman, or my personal trainer.
And how does any of this have anything to do with Waterboarding?
Your observation is irrelevant, inaccurate and ridiculous. Your observations and opinions of those who have reasons to believe that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles does not change the fact that they have good reasons to conclude that indeed the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
Since when do Christians need to validate our own faith? Our faith is validated by Jesus Christ and by the Bible.
I am Venezuelan. I love Venezuela and I admire Simón Bolívar much more than I admire Thomas Jefferson, but I don't go around saying that Simón Bolívar was a devout Christian or that Venezuela was founded on Judeo-Christian principles just to validate my personal religious beliefs.
I like India, and I admire Gandhi much more than I admire Thomas Jefferson, but I don't go around saying that Gandhi was a devout Christian or that India was founded on Judeo-Christian principles just to validate my personal religious beliefs. ::)
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Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.
Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”
Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know, I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.
Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?
Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.
GC,
I have taken some time to pray and fast about this issue. I did this because this has long been a concern of mine. I also spoke with a trusted Minister friend of mine. As a result of that conversation, I will no longer be posting on this site. When I told this friend about our discussion on this board, he wanted join in too. As you can imagine, I was extremely hesitant to direct a minister to this GETBIG (first clue that I do not belong here). Nevertheless, I gave in and directed him to this site. I convinced myself that it would be okay since I only read/post in the religious section. I warned him that there were sections on the board that were very anti-Christian. He visited the site and was stunned; not so much about what is here, but rather that I could be involved in such a site. His description was, "That place seems like a racist, gay-loving and extremely hateful place." He told me that he looked at all of my past posts and was pleased to see that I did not stray from Christ's teaching. However, he was adamant about the fact that Christians do not belong here. In all honesty, I cannot say that I am surprised at his response. It has been a long time since I looked at other boards here, but after talking with him, I checked them out. It is worse that I remembered! There are a few characters that post in the religious simply to cause friction (Decide immediately comes to mind). Had I known the mind set of some of the people, I would not have wasted my time.
At any rate, I have enjoyed talking with people like yourself who seem to want to do the Will of God. Today will be my last day posting here. I'm sending you my personal email address via a PM. If you would like to continue this discussion or chat about other Christian issues, feel free to contact me.
Should a Christian be a Soldier?
You provided some great scriptures and I understand why you believe the way you do. However, I do not believe there is a problem with a christian being a soldier. As with any profession we choose (as long as it is not sinful), we can do it in a manner that pleasing unto God. I would suspect that you would argue that being a soldier is sinful. When soldiers asked John the Baptist what should they do, he did not instruct them to stop being a soldier.
Luke 3:14 "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."
How is that John can say, "do violence to no man" to a soldier? I believe that to harm an innocent person or to even torture a soldier is sinful. Though I do not believe it to be sinful to be a soldier, I do think there are acts (in the line of duty) that can be sinful.
When Jesus instructed them to put away their sword (Matthew 26:52), He was letting them know that His birth, life, death and resurrection was necessary to fulfill the prediction that He would be the Saviour.
(Matthew 26:53-54) "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
We are instructed by Christ to love our enemies, but does that mean that we do not correct and rebuke evil or sin. As a earthly father, I love my children. However, I have "spared not the rod" to correct them. There is scripture also (I have looked, but couldn't find it...yet) that says (paraphrasing) that there are times when the body must be destroyed to save the soul.
I know it is easy for most to see soldiers as killing machines. Having been one for 20 plus years, I know that is not all there is to being a soldier. You say that it is a personal decision as to whether or not it is sinful to be a policeman. A soldier is nothing more than a policeman on a national level.
My apologies for being somewhat brief (though this is a long post) in my response. Again, contact me via my personal email address should you want to continue this discussion.
May God always be with you,
Michael