Author Topic: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding  (Read 12884 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #125 on: May 03, 2009, 01:06:55 PM »
I like this response...even with you calling my responses crazy.  :D

My next door neighbors does not believe in God.  We do not "hang out" together, but we are good neighbors to each other.   

well I did say "seems to me" to be completely crazy

from your perspective I'm headed to an eternity in hell and yet I could be "saved" (the good news right?) if I only I could share your beliefs and yet I can't and you might see that as crazy too

Government_Controlled

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2009, 03:11:15 PM »



I'm guessing here, but is there anything that you don't understand completely? If there is/are things you don't understand, do you place yourself into this category as well? You seem to be inflated with overwhelming pride. You kinda remind me of John Gotti. "Pride comes before a fall".



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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2009, 03:23:13 PM »
Good question.  This is why I think it has to be about why a war is being fought.  Most wars (including many of those for "religious" reasons) are fought because of man's greed.  if we were a Christian nation, we would fight for Christian reasons.  B-Bum has made some very good points about Christians serving in the military.  You make a good point now.  I simply do not have the answers.  I have stated a few times that I never had to go to any of the conflicts or wars during my career.  However, with this current war, I worked with the strategic satellites that provided direct support for the troops on the ground.  That makes me a participant in the war.  As a civilian, I am still working for the military.  Much of what I do support our troops in combat.  This is why I am praying about this issue.  I truly want to know what is right in the eyes of God.

In the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures, the wars fought that are mentioned there, were specifically directed by God Himself. Once Christ came, he gave the new covenant. Nowhere can we find where Jesus commissioned war after the new covenant was given. Christians of that time got out of the military once they became believers. The only war mentioned in the Greek scriptures is the battle of Armageddon, which is near by. This war is said to be only fought by Christ and his angles. Christians are told not to get involved because Christ will fight for them. Just some food for thought, friend. Peace!



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fitt@40

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2009, 08:31:05 PM »
In the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures, the wars fought that are mentioned there, were specifically directed by God Himself. Once Christ came, he gave the new covenant. Nowhere can we find where Jesus commissioned war after the new covenant was given. Christians of that time got out of the military once they became believers. The only war mentioned in the Greek scriptures is the battle of Armageddon, which is near by. This war is said to be only fought by Christ and his angles. Christians are told not to get involved because Christ will fight for them. Just some food for thought, friend. Peace!



GC/DEA_AGENT

Where is this supported Scripturally?  Do you also believe that Christians should not be policemen?  This is indeed food for thought, and I thank you.
As for Decide, just pray for him.  I think he posts the way he does because he is hurting and he needs the attention.  It is either that, or he is truly evil.  In any event, let us just pray for him.
God Bless you,
Fitt

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2009, 08:36:21 PM »
well I did say "seems to me" to be completely crazy

from your perspective I'm headed to an eternity in hell and yet I could be "saved" (the good news right?) if I only I could share your beliefs and yet I can't and you might see that as crazy too

I do not see the choices you have made as crazy.  I see them as a person who is being deceived.  Satan is the master of lies and trickery.  He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible.  As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world. 

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2009, 09:21:53 PM »
I do not see the choices you have made as crazy.  I see them as a person who is being deceived.  Satan is the master of lies and trickery.  He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible.  As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world. 

ok so Satan has hidden the "truth" from me?

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2009, 09:42:38 PM »


Where is this supported Scripturally?

Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.


Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.

Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
 
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”

Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know,  I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.

Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?

Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
 
Quote
Do you also believe that Christians should not be policemen?

I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.

Quote
This is indeed food for thought, and I thank you.

NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)

Quote
As for Decide, just pray for him. I think he posts the way he does because he is hurting and he needs the attention. It is either that, or he is truly evil. In any event, let us just pray for him.

Will do!

Quote
God Bless you,

Likewise, friend, likewise!



GC/DEA_AGENT



Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #132 on: May 04, 2009, 06:32:49 AM »
I do not see the choices you have made as crazy.  I see them as a person who is being deceived.  Satan is the master of lies and trickery.  He is attempted to take as many souls to the lake of fire (with him) as possible.  As I stated before, I understand the lure of the world. 

seems kind of shitty for god to condemn me to eternal suffering when I'm really just a victim of the devils lies and trickery.   

fitt@40

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #133 on: May 04, 2009, 08:05:31 AM »
seems kind of shitty for god to condemn me to eternal suffering when I'm really just a victim of the devils lies and trickery.   

The truth is you do not have to be a victim of him.  God sent His only Son to die for your sins.  All you have to do is accept Him. 

fitt@40

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #134 on: May 04, 2009, 08:13:59 AM »
Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.


Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.

Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
 
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”

Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know,  I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.

Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?

Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
 
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.

NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)

Will do!

Likewise, friend, likewise!



GC/DEA_AGENT




You may have planted the seeds I need to hear.  I want to take some time and go to the Word with what you have provided.  I do not want "Fitt" to come up with a response.  Thank you my brother and God Bless. 

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #135 on: May 04, 2009, 08:29:44 AM »
The truth is you do not have to be a victim of him.  God sent His only Son to die for your sins.  All you have to do is accept Him

well I've already explained why I can't do that.  Sounds like I won't be able to use the devils lies and trickery as an excuse.  Honestly, I can't actually remember meeting the devil so I'm not sure when he would have lied or tricked me. 

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #136 on: May 04, 2009, 10:02:44 AM »
Interestingly, we have secular sources reporting it. Here are some for Ex.

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

"We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." —Justin Martyr in "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." —History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.


Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.

Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
 
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”

Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know,  I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.

Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?

Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
 
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.

NP!. It's a genuine pleasure to speak with a spiritually minded person. That is, a "sincere" spiritually minded person! :)

Will do!

Likewise, friend, likewise!



GC/DEA_AGENT




Good post, GC!

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #137 on: May 04, 2009, 10:17:25 AM »
Good post, GC!

I can't figure out if GC takes this stuff seriously or not. 

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #138 on: May 04, 2009, 01:19:10 PM »
I can't figure out if GC takes this stuff seriously or not. 

He's crazier than a loon.
I hate the State.

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #139 on: May 04, 2009, 05:46:49 PM »
He's crazier than a loon.

I thought I detected a subtle mockage but perhaps I'm wrong

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2009, 09:34:11 AM »
Torture debate prompts evangelical soul-searching

Among evangelical leaders, debate over the use of harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists has prompted introspection about faith, ethics, the Golden Rule, just wars, Jack Bauer and Jesus.

A number of evangelical leaders have made opposition to torture without exceptions a moral cause over the past three years, part of a broadening of the movement's agenda beyond traditional culture war issues. Others in the movement, including many Christian right leaders, have largely resisted or stayed silent.

Now, President Barack Obama's release of Bush administration memos justifying harsh interrogation techniques and a new poll showing white evangelicals more sympathetic to torture have leaders taking stock of whether evangelical opinion has shifted on the topic.

"I have said before that torture is like a bone caught in our throat — we can't swallow it and we can't spit it out," said David Gushee, a professor of Christian ethics at Mercer University in Atlanta and president of Evangelicals for Human Rights. "I think we're still there."

The poll data from a survey of 742 U.S. adults released April 29 by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found 62 percent of white evangelical Protestants said torture of a suspected terrorist could be often or sometimes justified to obtain important information.

By contrast, 51 percent of white non-Hispanic Catholics, 46 percent of white mainline Protestants and 40 percent of the religiously unaffiliated held that position.

Those who attend religious services at least once a week were more likely than those who rarely or never attend to say torture is sometimes or often justified in that scenario — 54 percent to 42 percent.

The findings immediately prompted questions for evangelicals: How exactly did poll participants define torture, since the survey did not? Did evangelicals reach their conclusions because of their religious beliefs, or their politics or ideological leanings? How do you untangle those factors from each other?

Pew officials later updated the analysis to emphasize that religion "is only one of many factors" — and that political party and ideology are much better predictors of opinions on torture than religion and most other demographic factors. At the same time, the report noted, religion itself can play a strong role in shaping partisanship and ideology.

"My experience is that people who are comfortable supporting torture support it because they think it's going to produce information our country needs," said the Rev. Richard Killmer, a Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) minister and executive director of the interfaith National Religious Campaign Against Torture, which formed in 2006. "I don't think they would shy away from use of the word 'torture.'"

"During the last eight years, people have been concerned about this ticking time bomb thing and Jack Bauer and '24' and all that," said Killmer, referring to the TV drama in which the protagonist takes a by-any-means-necessary approach to extracting information from terror suspects.

Among evangelicals, Gushee has been a leading anti-torture advocate. He led the effort to draft, in 2006, "An Evangelical Declaration Against Torture: Protecting Human Rights in an Age of Terror." The document, which has 250 signatures, renounced torture and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees."

Last fall, a poll commissioned by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University found that 44 percent of white Southern evangelicals rely on life experience and common sense to form opinions on torture. By contrast, 28 percent said they relied on Christian teachings or beliefs.

Even so, Gushee said he senses a "deep moral, spiritual and theological problem" in evangelical support for torture.

"There is a version of Christianity in America that I think is not adequately committed to the Bible's teachings about the sacredness of every human life, including the lives of our enemies," Gushee said. "It's also insufficiently committed to the peacemaking teachings of Jesus and the example of Jesus as one who did not resort to violence or cruelty to accomplish any of his goals and instead suffered violence instead of inflicting it."

Gary Bauer, a former Republican presidential candidate affiliated with several Christian right groups over the years, said the discussion should not come down to "Would Jesus torture?"

I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.

"There are a lot of things Jesus wouldn't do because he's the son of God," he said. "I can't imagine Jesus being a Marine or a policeman or a bank president, for that matter. The more appropriate question is, 'What is a follower of Jesus permitted to do?'"

Bauer said the answer is "it depends" — but the moral equation changes when the suspect is not a soldier captured on a battlefield but a terrorist who may have knowledge of an impending attack. He said he does not consider water-boarding — a form of interrogation that simulates drowning — to be torture.

"I think if we believe the person we have can give us information to stop thousands of Americans from being killed, it would be morally suspect to not use harsh tactics to get that information," Bauer said.

Under Christianity's just-war tradition, recognized political authorities have the responsibility to protect the innocent from grave harm, said Keith Pavlischek, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, evangelical scholar and retired Marine colonel.

That means not just lives that would be lost in an attack, but the justice, order and peace of the broader international community at risk from terrorism, said Pavlischek, a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, a conservative denomination.

If authorities believe a detainee has information about an imminent attack, it's morally acceptable to use coercion, inflict pain, cause discomfort and use force in an attempt to prevent the attack, he said.

But it is not black and white in determining when interrogation tactics cross the line to unjust torture, Pavlischek said. He said while evidence exists that water-boarding might be out of line, "it's a hard call." Similarly, sleep deprivation can also be used to extremes and cross the line, but not always.

Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest evangelical church body, revealed this month that he believes water-boarding is torture and never justified. He said part of his conclusion is based on his belief that it's "very likely to cause permanent psychological damage."

"It seems to me once you accept the 'end justifies the means' argument, then you have taken a step onto a very steep and slippery slope to dark and dangerous place," Land said.

He emphasized that Christian tenets that guide the debate — including the Golden Rule, or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" — can be applied differently. He said that while terrorists should not be "mistreated," neither do they deserve protections afforded prisoners of war by the Geneva Convention.

Land said some harsh interrogation techniques — such as slapping with an open hand — can be morally permissible.

I don't think it's a Christian issue.  It's a safety issue.  I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives. 

David Neff, editor of Christianity Today magazine and chairman of the board of the National Association of Evangelicals, which endorsed the evangelical declaration against torture, said torture is not a subject preached at most evangelical churches. So white evangelical support for torture is more likely rooted in their strong allegiance the Republican Party.
 
"There is a sense of, 'We trust this administration that was leading us through this difficult time post-911, and if they say we have to do this, chances are that sometimes it's necessary,'" Neff said.

He added: "It think it is extremely important for the U.S. government, for our own security, to operate as ethically as possible, because what we sow, we reap."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_religion_today

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #141 on: May 24, 2009, 12:08:16 AM »
For the most part, I do agree that war is evil.  However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary.  Anything that is evil is of satan.  The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy.  This is why I say "for the most."  Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil.  The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God.  I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires.  I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.

As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue.  I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me.  When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make.  The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies.  He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder.  My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies.  I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God.  He said that nothing came before God.  His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood.  While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right. 

If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.  From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian.  Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church.  I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first.  This is where the real problem comes into play.  When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world.  As Christians, that would make us lukewarm.  We can never put the world's way before God's way.  If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.

I have written a lot, but not really answered the question.  That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself.  What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin.  Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience.  The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin.  However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category.  These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.


Thank You!!!  Finally a Christian willing to both see the truth, speak it, and not run away from it.
Why Christians insist on denying the fact that the USA was not founded on Christian principles is beyond me.
It's almost as if some of them believe that were it more widely known, people wouldn't convert to it, or embrace it.
Absolute nonsense. If someone wants to embrace Christianity, they will, and whether or not it was at the foundation of the developing nation would be completely irrelevant.
w

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2009, 06:36:06 AM »
Thank You!!!  Finally a Christian willing to both see the truth, speak it, and not run away from it.
Why Christians insist on denying the fact that the USA was not founded on Christian principles is beyond me.
It's almost as if some of them believe that were it more widely known, people wouldn't convert to it, or embrace it.
Absolute nonsense. If someone wants to embrace Christianity, they will, and whether or not it was at the foundation of the developing nation would be completely irrelevant.


That the US wasn't founded on Christian principles is debatable.  There are plenty of reasons to believe that it was.



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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #143 on: May 27, 2009, 03:30:09 AM »
That the US wasn't founded on Christian principles is debatable.  There are plenty of reasons to believe that it was.


From my observation, most who have taken a position on this, do so simply to present that position as a form of higher validation for their personal religious beliefs, rather than as a conclusion formed based upon where the evidence led them. I consider that to be a transparently foolish debate tactic, ...especially when applied to something so personal and so intimate as one's own spiritual path. It makes me question not only the credibility of the argument, but also the credibility, character and wisdom of those who would take such a seemingly perverse, almost idolatrous position, ...and does nothing to validate the overall underlying, although unstated, premise motivating their argument.

While I may hold certain beliefs to be right, just and proper, ...it takes nothing away from the rightness, or justness of my position, to acknowledge that others, even perhaps those who I or others may admire, may not have believed as I do. Does such acknowledgement mean I can no longer admire or respect them, their accomplishments or their efforts? Do I first have to make them over in my own image? It's almost as if any acknowledgent that the person didn't believe as I do, somehow diminishes my beliefs. Can I not accept that they were not subject to the same forces that shaped my outlook? I may have a deep respect for Thomas Jefferson, ...doesn't mean I'm going to run out get some slaves. And while there are things about Madonna I very much respect, ...I'm not going to run out there and screw Dennis Rodman, or my personal trainer.
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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #144 on: May 27, 2009, 05:31:07 AM »
From my observation, most who have taken a position on this, do so simply to present that position as a form of higher validation for their personal religious beliefs, rather than as a conclusion formed based upon where the evidence led them. I consider that to be a transparently foolish debate tactic, ...especially when applied to something so personal and so intimate as one's own spiritual path. It makes me question not only the credibility of the argument, but also the credibility, character and wisdom of those who would take such a seemingly perverse, almost idolatrous position, ...and does nothing to validate the overall underlying, although unstated, premise motivating their argument.

While I may hold certain beliefs to be right, just and proper, ...it takes nothing away from the rightness, or justness of my position, to acknowledge that others, even perhaps those who I or others may admire, may not have believed as I do. Does such acknowledgement mean I can no longer admire or respect them, their accomplishments or their efforts? Do I first have to make them over in my own image? It's almost as if any acknowledgent that the person didn't believe as I do, somehow diminishes my beliefs. Can I not accept that they were not subject to the same forces that shaped my outlook? I may have a deep respect for Thomas Jefferson, ...doesn't mean I'm going to run out get some slaves. And while there are things about Madonna I very much respect, ...I'm not going to run out there and screw Dennis Rodman, or my personal trainer.

And how does any of this have anything to do with Waterboarding?

Your observation is irrelevant, inaccurate and ridiculous.  Your observations and opinions of those who have reasons to believe that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles does not change the fact that they have good reasons to conclude that indeed the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Since when do Christians need to validate our own faith?  Our faith is validated by Jesus Christ and by the Bible.

I am Venezuelan.  I love Venezuela and I admire Simón Bolívar much more than I admire Thomas Jefferson, but I don't go around saying that Simón Bolívar was a devout Christian or that Venezuela was founded on Judeo-Christian principles just to validate my personal religious beliefs.

I like India, and I admire Gandhi much more than I admire Thomas Jefferson, but I don't go around saying that Gandhi was a devout Christian or that India was founded on Judeo-Christian principles just to validate my personal religious beliefs.    ::)

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #145 on: June 27, 2009, 12:56:52 PM »
Here are the scriptures indirectly supporting this as well, my friend.

Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
 
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of God will become firmly established above the top of the mountains. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”

Luke 6:27, 28: “I (Jesus Christ) say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


Also, if Christ commissioned (Christians) to go and teach people of ALL nations about him and his Father (Matt. 28:18,19) , then how could we be involved in warefare? Can we be killing the same people who we are suppose to preach too? Christ indicated that ALL people would have a chance to repent, and be forgiven, before he struck with the battle of Armageddon. Once again, how could a "genuine" christian preach and offer repentance, while at the same time, trying to kill them?. See what I mean? How the clergy of today do this, I don't know,  I do know tho, they are not following the Bible.

Here is another reasoning point to consider. Take a look at 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:4. Here the Bible is stating that the "whole" world is lying in the power of the wicked one. If this is true, who is really behind the control of these Govs.?

Also, the Bible says that in the battle of Armageddon, all these govs. will be destroyed by God. How can a Christian following God be involved with these govs. military forces? Wouldn't that subject the said christian to destruction by God? The main work a Christian is commissioned to do, is at (Matt. 28:18,19).
 
I would think this to be a matter of personal conscience. I'm no Bible scholar, yet I have studied it consistently for 15 years now. Close to half of my life. This in my opinion would strictly be a matter of your own conscience.

GC,

I have taken some time to pray and fast about this issue.  I did this because this has long been a concern of mine.  I also spoke with a trusted Minister friend of mine.  As a result of that conversation, I will no longer be posting on this site.  When I told this friend about our discussion on this board, he wanted join in too.  As you can imagine, I was extremely hesitant to direct a minister to this GETBIG (first clue that I do not belong here).   Nevertheless, I gave in and directed him to this site.  I convinced myself that it would be okay since I only read/post in the religious section.  I warned him that there were sections on the board that were very anti-Christian.  He visited the site and was stunned; not so much about what is here, but rather that I could be involved in such a site.  His description was, "That place seems like a racist, gay-loving and extremely hateful place."   He told me that he looked at all of my past posts and was pleased to see that I did not stray from Christ's teaching.  However, he was adamant about the fact that Christians do not belong here.  In all honesty, I cannot say that I am surprised at his response.  It has been a long time since I looked at other boards here, but after talking with him, I checked them out.  It is worse that I remembered!  There are a few characters that post in the religious simply to cause friction (Decide immediately comes to mind).  Had I known the mind set of some of the people, I would not have wasted my time. 

At any rate, I have enjoyed talking with people like yourself who seem to want to do the Will of God.  Today will be my last day posting here.  I'm sending you my personal email address via a PM.  If you would like to continue this discussion or chat about other Christian issues, feel free to contact me.

Should a Christian be a Soldier?
You provided some great scriptures and I understand why you believe the way you do.  However, I do not believe there is a problem with a christian being a soldier.  As with any profession we choose (as long as it is not sinful), we can do it in a manner that pleasing unto God.  I would suspect that you would argue that being a soldier is sinful.  When soldiers asked John the Baptist what should they do, he did not instruct them to stop being a soldier.

Luke 3:14 "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

How is that John can say, "do violence to no man" to a soldier?  I believe that to harm an innocent person or to even torture a soldier is sinful.  Though I do not believe it to be sinful to be a soldier, I do think there are acts (in the line of duty) that can be sinful.

When Jesus instructed them to put away their sword (Matthew 26:52), He was letting them know that His birth, life, death and resurrection was necessary to fulfill the prediction that He would be the Saviour. 
(Matthew 26:53-54) "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?  But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

We are instructed by Christ to love our enemies, but does that mean that we do not correct and rebuke evil or sin.  As a earthly father, I love my children.  However, I have "spared not the rod" to correct them.  There is scripture also (I have looked, but couldn't find it...yet) that says (paraphrasing) that there are times when the body must be destroyed to save the soul. 


I know it is easy for most to see soldiers as killing machines.  Having been one for 20 plus years, I know that is not all there is to being a soldier.  You say that it is a personal decision as to whether or not it is sinful to be a policeman.  A soldier is nothing more than a policeman on a national level.

My apologies for being somewhat brief (though this is a long post) in my response.  Again, contact me via my personal email address should you want to continue this discussion.

May God always be with you,
Michael