Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Royal Lion on April 22, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
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Dorian was king when it came to conditioning! This was 1994....not even his best year!
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nah he looked like a keg left out in a rain storm
looked horrible
and is it so hard to properly post a youtube video?! goodness ::)
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taking bets here on how quick this thread is RUINED by fagster and faggercisticfaggotty ::)
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brutal first post.
As a reminder of what is to follow in this thread, let me introduce you to 8 time Mister Olympia Ronnie Coleman 8) :
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
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Lol...a "keg in a rainstorm"? Say what you want about his shape, but he looks amazing in this vid. None of the current Pros get this dry, especially with that much size.
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Lol...a "keg in a rainstorm"? Say what you want about his shape, but he looks amazing in this vid. None of the current Pros get this dry, especially with that much size.
what are u talking about?!!
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Ronnie is freaky, no doubt. This thread wasn't meant to compare Dorian to Ronnie, however. I just haven't seen this video on Getbig and thought it puts Doz's conditioning in perspective!
taking bets here on how quick this thread is RUINED by fagster and faggercisticfaggotty ::)
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Ronnie>Dorian....end of thread.
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Ronnie>Dorian....end of thread.
Not in conditioning, balance, or density; But in size & volume, yes. Guess it comes down to your preference.
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Dorian was king when it came to conditioning! This was 1994....not even his best year!
wrong, Andreas Munzer and Ronnie Coleman both surpassed Dorian's level of conditioning. You don't achieve better separation and striations by carrying more body fat and water. ;)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Andreas%20Munzer/AndreasMunzer7a.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Andreas%20Munzer/AndreasMunzer1.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman41.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman56.jpg)
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wrong, Andreas Munzer and Ronnie Coleman both surpassed Dorian's level of conditioning. You don't achieve better separation and striations by carrying more body fat and water. ;)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Andreas%20Munzer/AndreasMunzer7a.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Andreas%20Munzer/AndreasMunzer1.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman41.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman56.jpg)
Munzer didn't have the size of Ronnie or Dorian, so he doesn't compare. Did you see the video? No way Ronnie was EVER this dry. This isn't meant to be a Ronnie/Dorian debate. I came across this video on You Tube and was wowed by how dry Doz is. Some are so blind that they can't even appreciate that Dorian was a master at getting in unreal condition.
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He was obviously a master at great conditioning as he won many Mr.Olympias
But Muntzer and Ronnie and a few others,not many in fairness,were better conditioned
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brutal first post.
As a reminder of what is to follow in this thread, let me introduce you to 8 time Mister Olympia Ronnie Coleman 8) :
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/Kelly0108/Ronnie_Coleman_photo340.jpg?t=1240458635)
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Can any current BB match this back shot or this conditioning? Can you imagine if someone like Wolf came in this dry?
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dorian was blocky and not he is tiny.
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this stuff will never stop. who gives a shit bout these noobs.
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Can any current BB match this back shot or this conditioning? Can you imagine if someone like Wolf came in this dry?
Not current, matches conditioning though
(http://www.samirbannout.net/photos/Universe79.jpg)
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Dorians aryan genetics have failed.
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Not current, matches conditioning though
(http://www.samirbannout.net/photos/Universe79.jpg)
Holy Shit! Who is that?
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Looks like Yaroni Avidan! :o
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Samir Bannout
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samir dontcha know
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1974
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He was obviously a master at great conditioning as he won many Mr.Olympias
But Muntzer and Ronnie and a few others,not many in fairness,were better conditioned
very true.
Ronnie did surpass dorian's conditioning, as did a few others.
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How come Munzer was shredded every where but his abs??????????
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Hulkster, can you honestly say after seeing the vid I posted that Dorian did not have excellent conditioning? (I know you'd have to forget about Ronnie for two seconds which is asking a lot.)
Btw...there are pics of Ronnie with rolls of skin on his lower back (just look in this thread), but I would still say he was extremely well-conditioned in most Olympia appearances.
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Hulkster, can you honestly say after seeing the vid I posted that Dorian did not have excellent conditioning?
show me where I said that...
he had great conditioning. some of the best ever.
but it was surpassed by Ronnie at his peak. as others on this thread have correctly pointed out.
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they just had different 'looks'; dorian had a 'grainy-ness' that few ever had, but ronald had far more cuts and separation.
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they just had different 'looks'; dorian had a 'grainy-ness' that few ever had, but ronald had far more cuts and separation.
Agree totally. It just comes down to one's subjective preference, hence the never ending "truce" thread. It's fine to agree to disagree. I prefer Dorian, but Ronnie was unreal in 98-99, 2001 AC and 2003. Unfortunatley, I don't think any of today's pros compare to those of the 90s.
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wrong, Andreas Munzer and Ronnie Coleman both surpassed Dorian's level of conditioning. You don't achieve better separation and striations by carrying more body fat and water. ;)
First, I didn't disagree with Peter McGough's claim that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian.
again your quote
I'm sorry but Peter McGough is an idiot if he thinks 01 ASC Ronnie never surpassed Dorian's conditioning.
Boom ;)
4. A lot of people say that you are the only pro bodybuilder that could go head to head with Ronnie Coleman. Like him, you were the only other to be able to gain so much mass in one year. What are your thoughts on this?
Dorian Yates - A. I get asked that question all the time, and I can’t really give an answer. I have actually beaten Ronnie, but then he wasn’t at the stage he is now. He is probably carrying more muscle than I did, but I feel I had better conditioning than him.
Boom ;)
While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.
On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.
Boom ;)
and let me preempt you I did follow you into this thread only to highlight your hypocrisy and correct your claim ;D
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show me where I said that...
he had great conditioning. some of the best ever.
but it was surpassed by Ronnie at his peak. as others on this thread have correctly pointed out.
Many occasions you claimed Dorian's conditioning was a myth , I can find the quotes if you like ;)
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First, I didn't disagree with Peter McGough's claim that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian.
again your quote
I'm sorry but Peter McGough is an idiot if he thinks 01 ASC Ronnie never surpassed Dorian's conditioning.
Boom ;)
4. A lot of people say that you are the only pro bodybuilder that could go head to head with Ronnie Coleman. Like him, you were the only other to be able to gain so much mass in one year. What are your thoughts on this?
Dorian Yates - A. I get asked that question all the time, and I can’t really give an answer. I have actually beaten Ronnie, but then he wasn’t at the stage he is now. He is probably carrying more muscle than I did, but I feel I had better conditioning than him.
Boom ;)
While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.
On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.
Boom ;)
and let me preempt you I did follow you into this thread only to highlight your hypocrisy and correct your claim ;D
ND had you seen this video of Dorian? It is from the 94 English Gran Prix. I think it is the best illustration of his conditioning out there as far as vids go.
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ND had you seen this video of Dorian? It is from the 94 English Gran Prix. I think it is the best illustration of his conditioning out there as far as vids go.
I actually have seen this vid , his conditioning was on another level density & dryness combined with mass that's Dorian
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I actually have seen this vid , his conditioning was on another level density & dryness combined with mass that's Dorian
I am assuming the Gran Prix was after the Olympia, so he must have improved as 94 was not his best O appearance (although he was justified in winning IMO).
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I actually have seen this vid
he has blown many a load to it.. :-X
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I am assuming the Gran Prix was after the Olympia, so he must have improved as 94 was not his best O appearance (although he was justified in winning IMO).
He did improve here is another shot from one of the other Grand Prix's from 1994
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He did improve here is another shot from one of the other Grand Prix's from 1994
Great shot! Look at that "paper thin back" ::)
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he has blown many a load to it.. :-X
Ha ha ha ha coming from the guy who compares Ronnie's glutes from one year to another :-X remember Kevin Horton had to keep reminding you Ronnie was happily married? lol
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Dorian schooling Ronnie on what conditioning is
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that clip of yates onstage at the 94 grand prix would beat any version of coleman.
after 03, coleman was bigger, but yates conditioning would embarass ronnie.
if ronnie came in for conditioning, which is under 250, yates would have the size advantage.
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First, I didn't disagree with Peter McGough's claim that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian.
again your quote
I'm sorry but Peter McGough is an idiot if he thinks 01 ASC Ronnie never surpassed Dorian's conditioning.
Boom
4. A lot of people say that you are the only pro bodybuilder that could go head to head with Ronnie Coleman. Like him, you were the only other to be able to gain so much mass in one year. What are your thoughts on this?
Dorian Yates - A. I get asked that question all the time, and I can’t really give an answer. I have actually beaten Ronnie, but then he wasn’t at the stage he is now. He is probably carrying more muscle than I did, but I feel I had better conditioning than him
Boom
While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.
On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.
Boom
and let me preempt you I did follow you into this thread only to highlight your hypocrisy and correct your claim
LMAO, my faithful puppy has returned to his master! Of course you would follow me into another thread. ;)
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here's a quote praising Ronnie's conditioning at the 01 ASC as the best ever:
Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005
"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"
Boom! This cancels out all the quotes saying Dorian had better conditioning. This leaves us with visual evidence. Dorian never had separations or striations like this.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman33.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-Ronnie82.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman14.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman23.jpg)
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that clip of yates onstage at the 94 grand prix would beat any version of coleman.
after 03, coleman was bigger, but yates conditioning would embarass ronnie.
if ronnie came in for conditioning, which is under 250, yates would have the size advantage.
Spot on!
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here's a quote praising Ronnie's conditioning at the 01 ASC as the best ever:
Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005
"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"
Boom! This cancels out all the quotes saying Dorian had better conditioning. This leaves us with visual evidence. Dorian never had separations or striations like this.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman33.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-Ronnie82.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman14.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman23.jpg)
exactly. Ronnie's 2001 AC conditioning surpassed Dorian's.
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here's a quote praising Ronnie's conditioning at the 01 ASC as the best ever:
Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005
"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"
Boom! This cancels out all the quotes saying Dorian had better conditioning. This leaves us with visual evidence. Dorian never had separations or striations like this.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman33.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-Ronnie82.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman14.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman23.jpg)
Yeah, if "Jim Stoppani" said it, it must be true. You guys selectively make conclusions about Ronnie's superiority based on certain quotes and yet ignore the quotes giving Dorian any credit. Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. In what I have seen, the BB "experts" seem split on Doz and Ronnie. It's a toss up.
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here's a quote praising Ronnie's conditioning at the 01 ASC as the best ever:
Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005
"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"
Boom! This cancels out all the quotes saying Dorian had better conditioning. This leaves us with visual evidence. Dorian never had separations or striations like this.
Ha ha ha where does that say Ronnie Coleman was harder & drier than Dorian Yates? opppssss it doesn't , thanks for playing.
FYI Dorian Yates is an IFBB judge when he says he's better condition that ends all discussion ;) couple that will McGough's quote and boom Neo owned again ;)
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LMAO, my faithful puppy has returned to his master! Of course you would follow me into another thread. ;)
And what's funny is Neo the troll is found himself into yet another Dorian Yates thread ha ha ha ha ha ha troll on it's what you do best kid.
First, I didn't disagree with Peter McGough's claim that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian.
again your quote
I'm sorry but Peter McGough is an idiot if he thinks 01 ASC Ronnie never surpassed Dorian's conditioning.
While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.
On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.
boom
Quote from Julian Schmidt, "FLEX" magazine, on the November issue, 1998:
"Now that Dorian Yates, the thickest, densest and most annealed bodybuider in history has retired, Ronnie has taken the opportunity to become the new stndard-bearer. Something unlikely to have happened, if Dorian still competed."
you like polls kid? here's one for ya ;) http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=953337&page=2
Ronnie can't even beat Dexter lmao
you stand corrected little troll ;)
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that clip of yates onstage at the 94 grand prix would beat any version of coleman.
after 03, coleman was bigger, but yates conditioning would embarass ronnie.
if ronnie came in for conditioning, which is under 250, yates would have the size advantage.
That's the trick , I've always maintained Ronnie perhaps came close to Dorian in terms of condition in 1998/2001 asc when he was at his lightest , Dorian could maintain that conditioning at much higher bodyweights which is extremely difficult
It's what these trolls do , they have to try and attack Yates on all levels now Ronnie suddenly is harder & drier than Dorian ::) Dorian was known for his insane conditioning Ronnie wasn't , Dorian's hallmarks was his density & dryness plus size
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Yeah, if "Jim Stoppani" said it, it must be true. You guys selectively make conclusions about Ronnie's superiority based on certain quotes and yet ignore the quotes giving Dorian any credit. Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. In what I have seen, the BB "experts" seem split on Doz and Ronnie. It's a toss up.
The thing is he doesn't say it , that's Neo's desperate attempt to try and counter Peter McGough and Dorian Yates
Ronnie can't even beat Dexter in this poll and quess who's the winner? ;D
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=953337&page=2
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He did improve here is another shot from one of the other Grand Prix's from 1994
Thats a rare picture ND, Dorian looked awesome that day, thanks for posting.
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Dorian schooling Ronnie on what conditioning is
Epic picture of irrelevance. What would the guy on the left look like with 50 more pounds and craziest dry lines in his ass this side of ......a desert? And Peter McGough is apparently just one person, whose opinion I choose to value less than that of Dorian himself when he said "Ronnie would probably win".
Sh!t this is the wrong thread really cos my argument for Ronnie's dominance isn't based solely on conditioning, which this thread is about. But Even with 5% worse conditioning, which was probably the case most of the time, Ronnie still had the roundness and fullness in all the areas Flex didn't, so I believe he would have beaten Dorian. But for dryness and cool intellectual approach Dorian was pretty unbeatable.
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Yeah, if "Jim Stoppani" said it, it must be true. You guys selectively make conclusions about Ronnie's superiority based on certain quotes and yet ignore the quotes giving Dorian any credit.
wrong, I didn't ignore the quotes in favor of Dorian. I said the quote from Jim Stoppani cancels out the quotes claiming Dorian had the best conditioning ever.
In what I have seen, the BB "experts" seem split on Doz and Ronnie. It's a toss up.
not really. ;)
Joe Weider - IFBB Co-Founder
"Many experts, including reigning Mr.Olympia, Jay Cutler, believe that at his best Ronnie has the greatest physique of all-time. When looking at pictures of Ronnie from the 1998 Mr.Olympia, I find it hard to argue with that."
Team Flex - http://www.flexonline.com/training/49
"We've said before that the 245 pounds or so physique with which [Ronnie Coleman] won the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic is the best ever - unbeatable."
Lonnie Teper - MD, December 2005
"I've always said that it's too hard to compare athletes of different eras (then he names a few Mr. Olympias including Dorian). Still, it's hard to imagine that anybody who's ever stepped on a bodybuilding stage could have beaten Coleman. So I reserve the right to change my mind on this one. No offense to the rest of the champs - you were/are all truly amazing physique athletes - but Coleman has really taken it to the next level, as all magnificent conquerors do."
Tony Doherty - Heavy Muscle Radio (03-16-09)
"Ronnie is the best ever. No one even comes close."
Raymond Cassar - Muscletime Editor and Photographer
"There is no one alive that can beat Ronnie Coleman when he is at his best - No One! (and his best for me was when he won the 2001 Arnold Classic)"
http://www.muscletime.com/news/contest-results/2007-mr-olympia-analysis
Steve Blechman - MD, Febrary 2004
"Ronnie perseveres and proves continually that, at his best, he is unbeatable."
Milos Sarcev - European Flex, April 2004
"Chris Lund who I consider to be a great expert in our sport of bodybuilding, told me that Ronnie is simply the best bodybuilder he has ever seen, or photographed, and he has seen everybody, during the last 35 years."
Hollis Liebman - Former Fitness Editor and IFBB Official
"The era of the big man would commence with Lee Haney (1984-1991), whose formidable torso would dominate the lineup for 8 straight years and was then elevated by Dorian Yates (1992-1997), whose back and overall conditioning upped the ante yet again until an alien named Ronnie Coleman (1998-2005), in all likelihood the greatest bodybuilder of all time, would redefine the sport bringing a near 300 pound contest ready physique to the stage."
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=238675.0
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Who cares what this photographer or that editor said? My point is that Dorian's condition was freaking unreal in the Gran Prix video. While there are some amazing pics and vids of him, none of them put is conditioning into perspective like this.
When he hits his front relaxed....BOOM he transforms into the most conditioned BB I have ever seen (just my subjective opinion). And his shape is alot better than I realized as well.
Of course there are some bad shots of him just as there are of Ronnie or any other pro for that matter. It is hilarious how the "truce" contains these sharpened pics of Ronnie at his best hitting a most muscular compared to a far away blurred out pic of Dorian fully relaxed. What does that prove?
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wrong, I didn't ignore the quotes in favor of Dorian. I said the quote from Jim Stoppani cancels out the quotes claiming Dorian had the best conditioning ever.
WRONG ! Dorian Yates IFBB judge beats anything ' Jim Stoppani ' has to say on the subject .
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Dorian was king when it came to conditioning! This was 1994....not even his best year!
Good conditioning in his back, abs, calves and that's it (every year). Far from his best.
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Good conditioning in his back, abs, calves and that's it (every year). Far from his best.
You don't know what good conditioning is.
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Munzer makes Dorian look soft as shit.
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Munzer makes Dorian look soft as shit.
why? because he has more striations? that's part of great conditioning and with all things being equal striations are genetic not all people will have the same amount regardless of how dry and hard they become and you can still hold water and be striated
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why? because he has more striations? that's part of great conditioning and with all things being equal striations are genetic not all people will have the same amount regardless of how dry and hard they become and you can still hold water and be striated
Soft as shit? Are you joking? Saying anyone made Doz look soft is ridiculous. Sure, some had better shape and better volume, but no one makes this look soft as shit....
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Soft as shit? Are you joking? Saying anyone made Doz look soft is ridiculous. Sure, some had better shape and better volume, but no one makes this look soft as shit....
This is the yardstick in which conditioned mass is measured with
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This is the yardstick in which conditioned mass is measured with
no silly boy, that's just genetics like you always say about every other bodybuilder who has better separations and striations than Dorian. ::)
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While Ronnie was LARGE and VASCULAR, with detail, he never had the DRY/GRAINY look Dorian had. Ronnie always looked soft, even when his veins stuck out and every muscle had its separation.
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This is the epitome of dry, grainy conditioning. It looks like he has no skin :o
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(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman23.jpg)
That's not DOV
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(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman23.jpg)
That's not DOV
That's a crazy shot, do doubt. Is that 2003? Stomach is a bit distented, but at 300 lbs that's to be expected. I went to the O from 2002-2006...in 03 Ronnie was unreal. When he walked out and hit is first shot everyone knew it was over. In 2002 he looked crazy (there are some screen caps floating around) just before the contest, but came in flat the day of the show. If Levrone had some legs then he may have taken 02.
I would love to see a peak Yates vs. a peak Ronnie. Could go either way and would have been a great rivalry had timing allowed it.
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You don't know what good conditioning is.
LOL, I just described what was seen by many in the video.
Not even close to his best condition. Now are you going to argue with that?
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ronnie had undeniable more muscle and gobs of it... but dont be swayed by the effect of the smaller waist. Yates.. better all around.
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That's a crazy shot, do doubt. Is that 2003?
its from the 2001 Arnold Classic, where the idiot nuthuggers love to point out that he was 'only 247 pounds'
what they don't get is, that unlike their hero, he looked like he was about 280 because of his freaky conditioning, and freaky shape, combined with the tiny waist..dorian just had the conditioning - without the shape or taper to go along with it..
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^
its quite clear that dorian did not attain the level of conditioning that ronnie displayed at the AC....
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^
its quite clear that dorian did not attain the level of conditioning that ronnie displayed at the AC....
It depends on what you classify as conditioning; for instance, if you equate conditioning to dryness, density, and graininess, then I'd give the nod to Doz. However, if you equate conditioning to separation to muscle separation and volume, then I'd give the nod to Ronnie. There is no question that Ronnie wins on separation and volume, especially from the front. But Doz still looks drier to me.
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That is one grainy MOFO
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It depends on what you classify as conditioning; for instance, if you equate conditioning to dryness, density, and graininess, then I'd give the nod to Doz. However, if you equate conditioning to separation to muscle separation and volume, then I'd give the nod to Ronnie. There is no question that Ronnie wins on separation and volume, especially from the front. But Doz still looks drier to me.
here is the problem with your criteria: there is no way to qualify "dryness" or "density" unless you use visual cues like separations and striations. I might as well make up my own criteria for conditioning and use it to claim that Ronnie surpassed Dorian.
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It depends on what you classify as conditioning; for instance, if you equate conditioning to dryness, density, and graininess, then I'd give the nod to Doz. However, if you equate conditioning to separation to muscle separation and volume, then I'd give the nod to Ronnie. There is no question that Ronnie wins on separation and volume, especially from the front. But Doz still looks drier to me.
no one has ever shown more striations/seperation by being less conditioned.
advantage: ronnie. he had better conditioning than dorian attained, at least at the 2001 AC and possibly a few other contests during 98/99..
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good conditioning
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Dorian%20Yates/93%20Mr%20Olympia/DorianYates41.jpg)
better conditioning ;)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Ronnie%20Coleman/01%20ASC/2001ASC-RonnieColeman33.jpg)
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I am not making up my own criteria to base conditioning on. Dryness and density play a huge role and are JUDGING criteria, not just mine.
No one is disputing that Ronnie is more separated (from the front especially) -- I think that is based on his genetics and the shape of his muscle bellies.
For example, Flex had some of the craziest separation and tie-ins ever....even when he wasn't in his best condition, he would look more separated than competitors in better condition. So just because Ronnie has fuller muscle bellies and better tie-ins DOES NOT mean he is in better condition than DOZ.
I will say that 2001 MM shot of Ronnie is absolutely insane. I wish he would have stayed at that weight!
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After all this time, on a body building forum no picture of dorian and ronnie on stage together has been posted?
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I am not making up my own criteria to base conditioning on. Dryness and density play a huge role and are JUDGING criteria, not just mine.
then how do you determine dryness and density? I could just as easily say Ronnie beats Dorian in those criteria.
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then how do you determine dryness and density? I could just as easily say Ronnie beats Dorian in those criteria.
Dryness and Density increase as water retention decreases. Now I am not saying Ronnie at his best was holding water because he was also able to get in freaky condition at his lighter weights. However, when he closed in on 300lbs, I think we was less dry and less dense than he was in 98,99,01 - although just as vascular and separated.
Both Ronnie and Dorian the two "driest" Mr. O's ever (Samir too but d/n have the mass). I still think Dorian was drier than Ronnie, albeit not by much.
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If you look closely at this picture, Doz looks totally shrinkwrapped. It's as if he doesn't have any skin. That is what I mean by grainy
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no silly boy, that's just genetics like you always say about every other bodybuilder who has better separations and striations than Dorian. ::)
Dorian's conditioning really is based on genetics as well as diet etc but again a point you can't seem to grasp striations with conditioning being great is genetic not all bodybuilders will exhibit striations in the same place regardless of how dry and dense they are .
Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders.
This along with Yates ' tissue paper ' thin skin and size is what really makes his conditioning legendary , when the topic of conditioning is brought up it's something he's noted for .
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After all this time, on a body building forum no picture of dorian and ronnie on stage together has been posted?
problem is, ronnie didnt attain really good conditioning until after dorian retired..
it was until 98 and onwards that ronnie really got dry: its no coincidence thats when he started winning everything in sight too..
eg. here he is winning the 98 NOC:
this is DRY:
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If you look closely at this picture, Doz looks totally shrinkwrapped. It's as if he doesn't have any skin. That is what I mean by grainy
whats funny is when relaxed, looks way out of shape.
from 1994, same contest
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whats funny is when relaxed, looks way out of shape.
from 1994, same contest
Have you seen Ronnie from the front totally relaxed? He looks worse than Dorian...
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Have you seen Ronnie from the front totally relaxed? He looks worse than Dorian...
but only when he was 280+ pounds. 8)
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problem is, ronnie didnt attain really good conditioning until after dorian retired..
it was until 98 and onwards that ronnie really got dry: its no coincidence thats when he started beating everyone past their primes that Dorian beat in their primes
eg. here he is winning the 98 NOC:
this is DRY:
1996/1997 he had good conditioning Chad did help him to get really dry but he was 249 pounds , Dorian could be that dry at 270
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Dorian could be that dry at 270
yeah, but he looked like Kovacs at that contest weight :'(:
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yeah, but he looked like Kovacs at that contest weight :'(:
Not so in 1993 ;)
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ronnie still crushes it, conditioning, shape, vascularity you name it..
next..
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wrong, Andreas Munzer and Ronnie Coleman both surpassed Dorian's level of conditioning. You don't achieve better separation and striations by carrying more body fat and water.
Wrong. Separations and striations are partially genetic. That is, at the exact same level of bodyfat and water, one bodybuilder will have more or less sparations and striations than another. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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ronnie still crushes it, conditioning, shape, vascularity you name it..
next..
conditioning? NO , shape? depending on the muscle sure , vascularity? you're grasping at straws as usual , how about balance & proportion? NO how about size? NO how about posing & presentation? NO your laughable ' comparisons ' still doesn't beat Dorian at his best
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Wrong. Separations and striations are partially genetic. That is, at the exact same level of bodyfat and water, one bodybuilder will have more or less sparations and striations than another. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
This man knows what he's talking about ! great post .
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hahaha....Ronnie small and smooth like a baby's butt. LOL.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276922.0;attach=316679;image)
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Both guys had great conditioning and could get certain bodyparts more conditioned than others i.e. Dorian back and torso, Ronnie arms and legs.
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ronnie still crushes it, conditioning, shape, vascularity you name it..
next..
Great comparison shot there. Both look unreal, but I give the Nod to Dorian. Ronnie has more vascularity, but Dorian has looks thicker to me. It would have been great to see a 93/95 Doz on stage with a 98/99 Ronnie.
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Dorian's arms and quads look great in this picture. Perfect balance!
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hahaha....Ronnie small and smooth like a baby's butt. LOL.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276922.0;attach=316679;image)
hahaha ronnie crushes dorian there - detail, cuts everywhere - and he's not even doing a lat spread
dorian showing the now classic 'radiation poisoning' quads LOL
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fuck, even dorian's sharpest ever 1995 shape is surpassed by ronnie.
and for the record, Shawn was in better condition than dorian at that contest too..he was about as dry as he had ever been in 95..
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ironically, an up and coming mid 90's ronnie is standing behind dorian in that shot, and look at what he turned into above...
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hard to believe some of you have a giant picture of Ronnies' ass on your computer.
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fuck, even dorian's sharpest ever 1995 shape is surpassed by ronnie.
and for the record, Shawn was in better condition than dorian at that contest too..he was about as dry as he had ever been in 95..
I laugh at you when you commit to statements lol I seriously do , Hulkster I get that you like Ronnie's front latspread better than you do Dorian's however that doesn't mean it is and I can explain why but you don't go by the criteria just what you like
now what makes me laugh is you typed Shawn was in better condition than Dorian 1995 and he was off from his 1994 conditioning , you consistently prove how little you know about competitive bodybuilding
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hahaha ronnie crushes dorian there - detail, cuts everywhere - and he's not even doing a lat spread
dorian showing the now classic 'radiation poisoning' quads LOL
Delusional as always. Ronnie is getting MURDERED there. Smooth as a marshmellow.
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I laugh at you when you commit to statements lol I seriously do , Hulkster I get that you like Ronnie's front latspread better than you do Dorian's however that doesn't mean it is and I can explain why but you don't go by the criteria just what you like
now what makes me laugh is you typed Shawn was in better condition than Dorian 1995 and he was off from his 1994 conditioning , you consistently prove how little you know about competitive bodybuilding
first of all, its not just what I like -its applying criteria:
ronnie has better shaped arms, more detailed arms, more detailed pecs, way better quad shape and detail, fantastic lats, vascularity that is absent in dorian etc. etc. his balance is fantastic (even his calves look okay because his quads are not 2003 level size). its a perfect lat spread.
dorian his great lats, wide waist, muscles devoid of detail (from the radiation? LOL) etc.
its not even close.
secondly as far as shawn ray and conditioning goes, I suggest you take back your words: ::)
shawn is schooling dorian in terms of conditioning here:
this is all criteria on which the pose is evaluated..
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shawn teaching dorian a lesson about conditioning in 95..
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first of all, its not just what I like -its applying criteria:
ronnie has better shaped arms, more detailed arms, more detailed pecs, way better quad shape and detail, fantastic lats, vascularity that is absent in dorian etc. etc. his balance is fantastic (even his calves look okay because his quads are not 2003 level size). its a perfect lat spread.
dorian his great lats, wide waist, muscles devoid of detail (from the radiation? LOL) etc.
its not even close.
secondly as far as shawn ray and conditioning goes, I suggest you take back your words: ::)
shawn is schooling dorian in terms of conditioning here:
this is all criteria on which the pose is evaluated..
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE CRITERIA so how can you apply it? you can't
and you don't have the slightest clue what constitutes great conditioning so you type empty words when you type Shawn is ' schooling ' Dorian 1995 on conditioning
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LOL ND is melting down because I showed he was wrong like always.
and I'm about to do it again: 95 again, again dorian being schooled in the conditioning department by none other than little shawn ray:
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LOL ND is melting down because I showed he was wrong like always.
and I'm about to do it again: 95 again, again dorian being schooled in the conditioning department by none other than little shawn ray:
Again you know what about conditioning? you're the same guy who thinks Ronnie was better conditioned in 1999 than 1998 ;)
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Again you know what about conditioning? you're the same guy who thinks Ronnie was better conditioned in 1999 than 1998 ;)
funny, Ronnie himself said the very same thing: ::)
he knows more than you and more than McGough ever will about his own physique..
http://www.dennisbweis.com/Articles/Colman.html
I was almost 15 pounds heavier than last year, with a little bit better conditioning than last year[/b]
you are fucked..
you always fail when you try and make it seem like I don't know what I am talking about.
always..
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..ND looking up #474656759467659505 on his list of excuses...
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Dryness and Density increase as water retention decreases.
this means shit all. I asked for how you determine dryness and density. I didn't ask for you to define it. Suppose we didn't know anything about Dorian and Ronnie and were only judging them based solely on physiques. What criteria are you using to determine who is dryer or denser?
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its from the 2001 Arnold Classic, where the idiot nuthuggers love to point out that he was 'only 247 pounds'
what they don't get is, that unlike their hero, he looked like he was about 280 because of his freaky conditioning, and freaky shape, combined with the tiny waist..dorian just had the conditioning - without the shape or taper to go along with it..
looked like 280?
please. so what did ronnie look like when he weighed 280? 330?
by the way, when ronnie LOST to cutler and gunter, ronnie still had more striations, but both jay and gunter were harder.
so much for your theory on striations.
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Wrong. Separations and striations are partially genetic. That is, at the exact same level of bodyfat and water, one bodybuilder will have more or less sparations and striations than another.
if two bodybuilders with the same conditioning can have varying amounts of total separations and striations, then what is anatomically responsible for this disparity? ;)
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looked like 280?
please. so what did ronnie look like when he weighed 280? 330?
in some shots, yes:
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FFS!
another thread turns into Ronnie vs Dorian ::)
don't you guys ever get tired?
seriously, you have said THE SAME THINGS over a thousand times
FFS!!!!
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if two bodybuilders with the same conditioning can have varying amounts of total separations and striations, then what is anatomically responsible for this disparity? ;)
So you're saying that every person has the identical muscle bellies, tie-ins, and striations? So, under your "theory" if Dorian could have gotten just a little more conditioned he would have the same separation and striations as Ronnie? That makes no sense at all. Genetic differences in muscular structure are anatomically responsible for this disparity.
As for "dryness", I defined it because if we knew nothing about criteria, we would determine who has the driest physique by who is holding the least amount of water. Applying the definition is how you determine it....what a difficult concept...
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if two bodybuilders with the same conditioning can have varying amounts of total separations and striations, then what is anatomically responsible for this disparity? ;)
I don't need to know the answer to that because the proof is in the pudding: two bodybuilders at the same levels of bodyfat and water have different levels of separations and striations. Example: Wheeler at the 93' Ironman and Branch Warren at the New York Pro. Both were insanely dry and at around 3% bodyfat, and yet Wheeler displayed far more separations and striations. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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So you're saying that every person has the identical muscle bellies, tie-ins, and striations?
what does muscle shape have to do with definition? ???
So, under your "theory" if Dorian could have gotten just a little more conditioned he would have the same separation and striations as Ronnie? That makes no sense at all. Genetic differences in muscular structure are anatomically responsible for this disparity.
basically, everyone would display the same amount of separations and striations if you equalized body fat and water levels. The only role genetics plays is influencing what areas a person carries more fat and water. For example, one guy might have naturally defined triceps while another guy has more defined calves. As a bodybuilder approaches the limit for conditioning, he begins to display more separations and striations all over. There is a point where you cannot achieve more definition. This is why you will never see a bodybuilder with striated striations. Munzer and Ronnie reached the apex for conditioning b/c they displayed the most definition a human can achieve.
As for "dryness", I defined it because if we knew nothing about criteria, we would determine who has the driest physique by who is holding the least amount of water. Applying the definition is how you determine it....what a difficult concept...
oh hai ND ;D Last time I checked, bodybuilding is a visual sport. So what visual cues are you using to determine who is dryer or denser? I don't understand why this is difficult for you to answer. :-\
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I don't need to know the answer to that because the proof is in the pudding: two bodybuilders at the same levels of bodyfat and water have different levels of separations and striations. Example: Wheeler at the 93' Ironman and Branch Warren at the New York Pro. Both were insanely dry and at around 3% bodyfat, and yet Wheeler displayed far more separations and striations.
translation: I don't know. So I'm going to pull some statistics out of my ass to support my argument. ;)
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basically, everyone would display the same amount of separations and striations if you equalized body fat and water levels. The only role genetics plays is influencing what areas a person carries more fat and water. For example, one guy might have naturally defined triceps while another guy has more defined calves. As a bodybuilder approaches the limit for conditioning, he begins to display more separations and striations all over. There is a point where you cannot achieve more definition. This is why you will never see a bodybuilder with striated striations. Munzer and Ronnie reached the apex for conditioning b/c they displayed the most definition a human can achieve.
Wrong. Two bodybuilders at the same level of bodyfat and water will display overral different levels of separation and striations. Case in point: Branch Warren at the New York Pro and Wheeler at the 93' Ironman. Both were at 3% bodyfat and dehydrated to the bone, and yet Wheeler had more separations in his back, arms, legs, chest, etc. Branch was as low as a Human can go in both bodyfat and water, and yet he wasn't as separated or striated as Wheeler at the 93' Ironman. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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translation: I don't know. So I'm going to pull some statistics out of my ass to support my argument. ;)
What you're asking me is irrelevant. I don't need to know the cause of an effect to observe such effect. This is simple deductive logic. By using my eyes, I have observed that even when they take bodyfat and water levels to lower levels than their competitors, some bodybuilders just don't become as cut and striated. For instance, I know that if I hit my finger with a hammer, it is going to hurt as hell. I don't know what are the exact neurochemical processes that translate as pain, but not knowing them doesen't change the fact that I know the effect - the pain. Of course there is a reason for it, but knowing it is not needed to prove my observation. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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funny, Ronnie himself said the very same thing: ::)
he knows more than you and more than McGough ever will about his own physique..
http://www.dennisbweis.com/Articles/Colman.html
you are fucked..
you always fail when you try and make it seem like I don't know what I am talking about.
always..
Funny on when on a radio show last year and asked which Mr Olympia was his best Ronnie said..... " I would have to say my first because my conditioning was spot-on. " BOOM thanks for playing kid.
he knows more than you and more than McGough ever will about his own physique..
that statement will haunt you kid ;)
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looked like 280?
please. so what did ronnie look like when he weighed 280? 330?
by the way, when ronnie LOST to cutler and gunter, ronnie still had more striations, but both jay and gunter were harder.
so much for your theory on striations.
ha ha ha ha Hulkster owed yet again lol Great post ! so much for striations
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So you're saying that every person has the identical muscle bellies, tie-ins, and striations? So, under your "theory" if Dorian could have gotten just a little more conditioned he would have the same separation and striations as Ronnie? That makes no sense at all. Genetic differences in muscular structure are anatomically responsible for this disparity.
As for "dryness", I defined it because if we knew nothing about criteria, we would determine who has the driest physique by who is holding the least amount of water. Applying the definition is how you determine it....what a difficult concept...
Exactly separations and striations when all things being equal are genetic as long as the conditioning is at it's best , it's a concept he can't grasp , he thinks more striations equals better conditioning which even on a base level isn't true because one can be holding a film of water over a striated muscle and one can be dry but still carry a lot of intramuscular fat
And another part which he overlooks is that fact pictures and video can NEVER replace actually seeing people live and in person , and most of the Yates pictures are mediocre scans from magazine from 1993 , with the advent of digital photography there are a lot more high quality pictures of Ronnie than Dorian and the simple fact that countless people time and time have said Dorian looks eons better live and in person than he does in pics & video , yet knowing all of this he's still going to make a fan-boy assessment that Dorian wasn't harder or drier despite NEVER once seeing either live and in person and claiming the people who do say Yates is better conditioned are flat out wrong lol
He's a proud little man ...he likes to act like he knows what he's talking about and he's been proven wrong countless times by me so he just can't accept the fact he's been proven wrong by me yet again so he's forced to stick to this story
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if two bodybuilders with the same conditioning can have varying amounts of total separations and striations, then what is anatomically responsible for this disparity? ;)
It's called genetics , the same reason why some bodybuilders are more vascular than others even though both are well conditioned
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What you're asking me is irrelevant. I don't need to know the cause of an effect to observe such effect. This is simple deductive logic. By using my eyes, I have observed that even when they take bodyfat and water levels to lower levels than their competitors, some bodybuilders just don't become as cut and striated. For instance, I know that if I hit my finger with a hammer, it is going to hurt as hell. I don't know what are the exact neurochemical processes that translate as pain, but not knowing them doesen't change the fact that I know the effect - the pain. Of course there is a reason for it, but knowing it is not needed to prove my observation.
wrong, my question is perfectly relevant. Muscle definition is obscured by skin, body fat, water levels, and muscle fascia. This is anatomy 101. You claim that Dorian achieved lower body fat and water levels, which leaves the skin and muscle fascia as responsible for covering up the muscle. However, Dorian has thin skin and the fascia is only like a mm thick, if that. So basically what you're saying about Dorian having better conditioning than Munzer or Ronnie contradicts medical literature. I love how you can't dispute me with actual evidence so you invent facts.
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It's called genetics , the same reason why some bodybuilders are more vascular than others even though both are well conditioned
riiiiiight, b/c chromosomes are so large that you can actually see them. ::)
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riiiiiight, b/c chromosomes are so large that you can actually see them. ::)
::) here we go we're talking about genetics for muscle striations which one can see and the best part is you're sole means of visual inspection is no where near as accurate as actually being there , nevermind the fact that what we do have there is still a disparity between the two i.e pics and video
Dorian Yates has said on multiple occasions he's better conditioned than Ronnie Coleman specifically he's an IFBB judge and has seen both at their best , this renders anything you type moot
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by the way, when ronnie LOST to cutler and gunter, ronnie still had more striations, but both jay and gunter were harder.
bullshit. ::) who's says they were harder? ronnie looked to be much harder: eg. vs gunter
but lost for other reasons..like being outmassed, distended belly etc.
look: ::)
just when you think you have proven me wrong, a quick glance at reality shows that I am right as always:
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ha ha ha ha Hulkster owed yet again lol Great post ! so much for striations
see above post.
see ND lumped in with Icecold as one of the dumbest on getbig..
constantly owned by me and reality.
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see above post.
see ND lumped in with Icecold as one of the dumbest on getbig..
constantly owned by me and reality.
owned , notice I never once said you were intelligent ;)
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owned , notice I never once said you were intelligent ;)
that was before you went into exile from the truce thread the first time.
when you came back you which much more stupid.
sorry.
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Dorian was good in 92 but otherwise was shit.
This is how it's done homos!
&feature=related
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that was before you went into exile from the truce thread the first time.
when you came back you which much more stupid.
sorry.
you're such a dumbass my position hasn't changed one iota , you're a moron and I've always maintained that I don't have to backpeddle lol I own you kid
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Can you imagine the gay hate sex that will occur when these two finally meet? :-\ :-[ :-X
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Dorian was good in 92 but otherwise was shit.
This is how it's done homos!
&feature=related
good job posting a clip of Kevin from a contest he lost lol
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Another thread, another owning given out by my friend ND :)
...am i missing something? nope didn't even have to read it 8)
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Huckster tainting a Yates thread with Ronnie pics, who would have imagined? ::) Seriously, if the guy has any friends or family at all, they should be doing an intervention for this loser.
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Huckster tainting a Yates thread with Ronnie pics, who would have imagined? ::) Seriously, if the guy has any friends or family at all, they should be doing an intervention for this loser.
QFT he can't start his own thread he has to hi-jack everyone else
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Another thread, another owning given out by my friend ND :)
...am i missing something? nope didn't even have to read it 8)
smart man with a great physique ! ;D
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QFT he can't start his own thread he has to hi-jack everyone else
there is a thread for this already.
you know - the one where I humilated you so bad in that you ran away?
yeah, thats the one..the one you lost.
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there is a thread for this already.
you know - the one where I humilated you so bad in that you ran away?
yeah, thats the one..the one you lost.
I didn't run away from you ever , I continue to correct you . I ended the truce thread with multiple quotes from Ronnie Coleman at his peak saying he would NEVER beat Dorian , case closed.
I won , hence why you follow me around ;)
Special Ed : Ronnie of Dorian competed in 1998 would you have smoked him?
Ronnie Coleman : NO I think he would have kept on winning as long as he competed I don't think he would have lost.
Taken out of FLEX nov 1999, page 90. interview by jim schmaltz with ronnie before the 99 Olympia.
Jim: What would have happened last year if Dorian Yates (recently retired winner of 6 straight Mr. Olympias) had competed?
Ronnie: Dorian would have won again.
Jim: You think so?
Ronnie: I know so.
Boom Hulkster = owned
Truce Thread = ended
Hulkster = never recovered
and to use your own quote against you BOOM
he knows more than you and more than McGough ever will about his own physique..
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This is the visual yardstick by which to measure conditioning -- dryness/density. That is the whole point of this thread. ND is right in that many of the Doz pics lack quality as they are 12-15 years old magazine scans. This shot, however, is clear and you can see how dense Dorian is. Also in this youtube video (see first post) clearly shows that his conditioning is unreal.
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:o
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hahaha....Ronnie small and smooth like a baby's butt. LOL.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276922.0;attach=316679;image)
Dorian really did have poor biceps, thighs and midsection... IT severely detracts from the overall balance of his physique.
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shawn teaching dorian a lesson about conditioning in 95..
If Shawn was 3-4" taller, he would have been a Mr. Olympia. He really was THAT good and for the most part, was better than Dorian, with exception to 1993 imo.
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Dorian really did have poor biceps, thighs and midsection... IT severely detracts from the overall balance of his physique.
agreed.
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ND is right in that many of the Doz pics lack quality as they are 12-15 years old magazine scans.
::)
so ND claims many dorian pics lack quality because they are old
and
he also claims that almost all modern Ronnie shots are faked/touched up/oversharpened..
do you see what is happening here?
he has an excuse for everything that shows Ronnie was better and or had better conditioning ::)
classic ad hoc argument ::)
rather than admit what reality shows us, he makes up bullshit "explanations" for why dorian was really better/better conditioned even though all the visuals show he wasn't..
::)
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agreed.
Ronnie was infamous for having a poor midsection! He couldn't touch Doz in the overhead ab shot, ever. Doz's quads look amazing in the B & W comparison you are referring to. It is silly to say Ronnie doesn't look good there....he looks unreal and is in superb condition. Too bad his calves aren't better as it would balance out his legs.
I was not making excuses regarding the quality of pics. But Hulkster, you are infamous for posting a crystal clear shot of Ronnie in an awesome pose and then comparing it to a blurred pose of Doz to prove Ronnie's superiority. That is why I have posted the pics I have and the video that I did...because they put into perspective how great Doz was. You can argue until you're blue in the face that Ronnie was better and many people will agree with you. It's a toss up as they are the two greatest O's.
Btw....Ray doesn't compare - he gets dwarfed by the bigger guys. Labrada syndrome.
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Doz's quads look amazing in the B & W comparison you are referring to.
hahaa
they have no seperatation at all!
just blobs of ugly mass. no cuts. no detail. bad shape.
big. but piss poor.
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Lol...yeah, I'm a gimmick alright ::)
Have you not noticed my objective statements that give Ronnie his due credit? I am not going to stoop to saying someone doesn't look good when they do (as you seem to). Ronnie was incredible and he does not look smooth or small in that comparison pic - saying that is ridiculous. However, saying Dorian's quads look horrible is just as ridiculous. His right quad (the flexed one) looks huge and separated to me.
Read my first few posts...they don't even mention Ronnie or compare him to Dorian. That is YOUR obsession, not mine.
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meltdown
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I'd say accusing me of being a gimmick is a meltdown...
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I'd say accusing me of being a gimmick is a meltdown...
its not too often people come on here and agree with ND's bullshit and pathetic excuses.
your a rare breed..
and thats not a good thing in this case.. :P
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Plenty of people think Dorian is the greatest Olympian ever. I never said he was to greatest ever...one of the greatest and IMO the most conditioned.
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Plenty of people think Dorian is the greatest Olympian ever
not that many..ask Neoseminole for about a billion quotes from fellow pros, magazine writers, ietc saying ronnie is the best ever.
had dorian not torn his bi so early on in his career, his may have been viewed a little more positively,
most feel dorian was downhill from 1994 onward. that only leaves two wins out of 6 without a missing arm.. :-\
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here we go we're talking about genetics for muscle striations which one can see and the best part is you're sole means of visual inspection is no where near as accurate as actually being there , nevermind the fact that what we do have there is still a disparity between the two i.e pics and video
ha ha, of course you think my response is absurd. It's obvious you don't know wtf you're talking about. ;)
Dorian Yates has said on multiple occasions he's better conditioned than Ronnie Coleman specifically he's an IFBB judge and has seen both at their best , this renders anything you type moot
wrong, Dorian never explicitly said which versions he was comparing and his opinion means nothing if it isn't supported by evidence or some objective guidelines for determining level of conditioning.
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::)
so ND claims many dorian pics lack quality because they are old
and
he also claims that almost all modern Ronnie shots are faked/touched up/oversharpened..
do you see what is happening here?
he has an excuse for everything that shows Ronnie was better and or had better conditioning ::)
classic ad hoc argument ::)
rather than admit what reality shows us, he makes up bullshit "explanations" for why dorian was really better/better conditioned even though all the visuals show he wasn't..
::)
ha ha ha ha please show me where I ever claimed almost all modern Ronnie shots are faked/touched up/oversharpened..
you're reduced to making shit up again ....you know you can't find anything remotely close to that so you're forced to make shit up . you post pics I'll tell you which ones have been proven to be enhanced ;)
there is an obvious difference between photography technology from Yates era to Ronnie even you're not stupid enough to argue otherwise ....wait yeah you are lol in fact when Kevin Horton busted you using one of your many enhanced pics he stated specifically you're posting a slanted comparison of a ' crappy scan of Dorian to a oversharpened screencap of Ronnie '
I don't need excuses I have Ronnie stating multiple times he could never beat Dorian ;) that ended the truce thread and you're the loser with excuses
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ha ha ha ha please show me where I ever claimed almost all modern Ronnie shots are faked/touched up/oversharpened..
you're reduced to making shit up again ....you know you can't find anything remotely close to that so you're forced to make shit up . you post pics I'll tell you which ones have been proven to be enhanced ;)
there is an obvious difference between photography technology from Yates era to Ronnie even you're not stupid enough to argue otherwise ....wait yeah you are lol in fact when Kevin Horton busted you using one of your many enhanced pics he stated specifically you're posting a slanted comparison of a ' crappy scan of Dorian to a oversharpened screencap of Ronnie '
I don't need excuses I have Ronnie stating multiple times he could never beat Dorian ;) that ended the truce thread and you're the loser with excuses
You are a one man army my friend 8) :) ;)
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ha ha, of course you think my response is absurd. It's obvious you don't know wtf you're talking about. ;)
wrong, Dorian never explicitly said which versions he was comparing and his opinion means nothing if it isn't supported by evidence or some objective guidelines for determining level of conditioning.
ha ha, of course you think my response is absurd. It's obvious you don't know wtf you're talking about. ;)
out of the two of us , I clearly know more about competitive bodybuilding than you do , I've proven that time and time again , you didn't and still don't know how competitive bodybuilding is scored , what constitutes great conditioning , that balance & proportion were two separate entities lol that 2003 was NOT Ronnie's peak , I mean I don't have to continue ?
wrong, Dorian never explicitly said which versions he was comparing and his opinion means nothing if it isn't supported by evidence or some objective guidelines for determining level of conditioning.
lol his opinion means nothing , such a fan-boy statement very typical of you . Dorian is an IFBB judge if he says he has better conditioning than Ronnie it's LAW and coincides with what Peter McGough says can anyone say convergence? I've always maintained Ronnie may have equaled Dorian in terms of density & dryness albeit it lightest but there is a big difference between being that hard & dry when you're 260+
Dorian is noted for his conditioning , I know this pains you to hear but his its legendary Ronnie's isn't , when Dorian says " I feel I have better conditioning than him " that means in general he doesn't have to get specific and entertaining Ronnie did this means what? he's still down balance & proportion ( which again Yates said he has him here too ) and posing & presentation as well as bulk so in the end you're right back to square one.....no where .
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not that many..ask Neoseminole for about a billion quotes from fellow pros, magazine writers, ietc saying ronnie is the best ever.
had dorian not torn his bi so early on in his career, his may have been viewed a little more positively,
most feel dorian was downhill from 1994 onward. that only leaves two wins out of 6 without a missing arm.. :-\
BOOM jackass ( I told you this quote would haunt you ;) )
what matters more than ANYONE else is......what Ronnie Coleman has to say and why?
he knows more than you and more than McGough ever will about his own physique..
Ronnie Coleman's opinion trumps everyone else .
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If Shawn was 3-4" taller, he would have been a Mr. Olympia. He really was THAT good and for the most part, was better than Dorian, with exception to 1993 imo.
If he would have been ' 3-4" ' taller he still would have been 205 pounds lol so now he have to add in 40 pounds heavier to compensate for the height , then we have to add clavicle width as well because he as narrow too , I mean sure if we recreated Shawn Ray he ' could ' beat Dorian but we deal in reality and we saw how that turned out
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Dorian really did have poor biceps, thighs and midsection... IT severely detracts from the overall balance of his physique.
ha ha ha ha and Ronnie's pathetic calves , long legs and short torso as well as unproportionate forearms don't detract from his ::) go learn what great balance is then come back.
Great balance included upper & lower body balance , leg length in relation to the torso , proportion from one muscle to the next , clavicle width , height , Dorian's balance will always been better than Ronnies at their respective bests
this is from the same photoshoot is this what you call ' poor biceps ' ? if so I think Len Crafters is having a sale
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Shawn Ray was an amazing pro and one of the most consistent. He had amazing lines, but when standing next to some of the bigger guys, e.g. Doz, Ronnie, Levrone, he couldn't hang. He would undoubtedly be the king of today's 202 class.
This is Dorian in 1994 - no way Ray was better.
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ha ha ha ha and Ronnie's pathetic calves , long legs and short torso as well as unproportionate forearms don't detract from his ::) go learn what great balance is then come back.
Great balance included upper & lower body balance , leg length in relation to the torso , proportion from one muscle to the next , clavicle width , height , Dorian's balance will always been better than Ronnies at their respective bests
this is from the same photoshoot is this what you call ' poor biceps ' ? if so I think Len Crafters is having a sale
Wow that's impressive. Tobad for the injuries that caused Dorian to quit. I would of like to see him as 8 time Mr. O than Coleman.
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Shawn Ray was an amazing pro and one of the most consistent. He had amazing lines, but when standing next to some of the bigger guys, e.g. Doz, Ronnie, Levrone, he couldn't hang. He would undoubtedly be the king of today's 202 class.
This is Dorian in 1994 - no way Ray was better.
He wasn't better than Dorian according to the IFBB criteria is concerned when people say Shawn was better most are referring purely from an aesthetic prospective and you'll get no argument from me Shawn had a prettier physique , but that's not enough to win it all .
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I think Dorian's best year may have been 1994...he looks much larger than 1993 and seems to be just as conditioned.
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I think Dorian's best year may have been 1994...he looks much larger than 1993 and seems to be just as conditioned.
He was 262 pounds in 1994 he looked heavier too , but his God-awful tan and fresh tears he wasn't his best but still clearly good enough to beat Shawn Ray
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What's Dorian up to now, does anybody know. Is he still training clients and running that gym.
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This shot is crazy! :o
If he was 262 here, what did he weigh in 1993?
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This shot is crazy! :o
If he was 262 here, what did he weigh in 1993?
257 pounds
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out of the two of us , I clearly know more about competitive bodybuilding than you do , I've proven that time and time again , you didn't and still don't know how competitive bodybuilding is scored , what constitutes great conditioning , that balance & proportion were two separate entities lol that 2003 was NOT Ronnie's peak , I mean I don't have to continue?
yawn, what does any of this have to do with anatomy? Am I suppose to be impressed that you've been reading Flex magazine longer than I have? LOL ::)
lol his opinion means nothing , such a fan-boy statement very typical of you . Dorian is an IFBB judge if he says he has better conditioning than Ronnie it's LAW and coincides with what Peter McGough says can anyone say convergence? I've always maintained Ronnie may have equaled Dorian in terms of density & dryness albeit it lightest but there is a big difference between being that hard & dry when you're 260+
no, it's not law. A judge is not perfect, and oftentimes the judges don't all agree with each other. Furthermore, we already established that Dorian was generalizing when he compared their conditioning. Ronnie was hit or miss while Dorian was consistent. He never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning.
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yawn, what does any of this have to do with anatomy? Am I suppose to be impressed that you've been reading Flex magazine longer than I have? LOL ::)
no, it's not law. A judge is not perfect, and oftentimes the judges don't all agree with each other. Furthermore, we already established that Dorian was generalizing when he compared their conditioning. Ronnie was hit or miss while Dorian was consistent. He never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning.
yawn, what does any of this have to do with anatomy? Am I suppose to be impressed that you've been reading Flex magazine longer than I have? LOL ::)
I've been reading bodybuilding magazines since 1985 and I bought just about every book on the subject it's not only Flex magazine kid
no, it's not law. A judge is not perfect, and oftentimes the judges don't all agree with each other. Furthermore, we already established that Dorian was generalizing when he compared their conditioning. Ronnie was hit or miss while Dorian was consistent. He never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning.
Ah the old semantics game lol I could always count on you for this lame attempt , ' he never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning ' he said at least two times his conditioning and balance are better than Ronnie , it coincides with McGough's quotes and well as others that to this day talk about Dorian's legendary conditioning , not Ronnies. and again I'm willing to concede perhaps Ronnie did match Yates in 1998/2001 he was razor sharp and hard as nails but again the difference is he couldn't replicate that conditioning at higher weights and any hypothetical comparison of the two this is one area where Ronnie would either tie or outright lose in now couple that with clear advantages in bulk , balance & proportion , posing & presentation all of these would tip any contest in Yates' favor
the best legitimate chance Ronnie would have of beating Dorian would be 2001 Arnold
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yawn, what does any of this have to do with anatomy? Am I suppose to be impressed that you've been reading Flex magazine longer than I have? LOL ::)
no, it's not law. A judge is not perfect, and oftentimes the judges don't all agree with each other. Furthermore, we already established that Dorian was generalizing when he compared their conditioning. Ronnie was hit or miss while Dorian was consistent. He never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning.
I forgot about the topics of judges , you obviously don't know how contests are judged allow me to teach you about this as well ;) , judges have to prove themselves before they adjudicate over the biggest contest in the IFBB , they must first prove themselves to be consistent on a national level , then pros shows then the Olympia.
Judges who scores deviate to much from the others are removed for bias , what they look for is consistency over the years , and to insure this as well they toss out the highs & lows . I'm not going to say it's perfect but it's as good as it gets . and Dorian is known as a straight shooter he doesn't sugar coat things and tells it like it is , he's honest so that's one of the reasons he makes a good judge .
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yawn, what does any of this have to do with anatomy? Am I suppose to be impressed that you've been reading Flex magazine longer than I have? LOL ::)
no, it's not law. A judge is not perfect, and oftentimes the judges don't all agree with each other. Furthermore, we already established that Dorian was generalizing when he compared their conditioning. Ronnie was hit or miss while Dorian was consistent. He never explicitly said Ronnie never had better conditioning.
What I don't get is this: ND has repeatedly said that a best-ever Ronnie could beat a best-ever Dorian, correct? Why are Hulkster and crew not satisfied with that?
They make ridiculous statements about Dorian's "bricklayer" build and "keg with arms" that have absolutely no basis. Dorian had torn muscles and wasn't at his best towards the end of his career -- Ronnie had torn muscles and wasn't at his best either towards the end. Bottom line is both were awesome and both deserve respect. We will never know the outcome of a 93-95 Yates versus a 98-99/01 Ronnie...the nod probably goes to RC, but it would be damn close.
At least Doz didn't take 5th in his last showing. ;D
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What I don't get is this: ND has repeatedly said that a best-ever Ronnie could beat a best-ever Dorian, correct? Why are Hulkster and crew not satisfied with that?
They make ridiculous statements about Dorian's "bricklayer" build and "keg with arms" that have absolutely no basis. Dorian had torn muscles and wasn't at his best towards the end of his career -- Ronnie had torn muscles and wasn't at his best either towards the end. Bottom line is both were awesome and both deserve respect. We will never know the outcome of a 93-95 Yates versus a 98-99/01 Ronnie...the nod probably goes to RC, but it would be damn close.
At least Doz didn't take 5th in his last showing. ;D
These guys go to great lengths to tear Dorian down , they think somehow this helps their case , if you listen to them it's a miracle he ever won a single show nevermind was the most dominant bodybuilder in IFBB history . but they just don't get Dorian and that's bias they think Dorian doesn't look like Ronnie so he could never beat Ronnie , I for the life of me couldn't figure out how Dorian beat Flex Wheeler in 1993 , I was crying politics , etc , etc it wasn't until I learned how they actually judge contests did I realize how dominant Yates was in 1993 , they like what they like and base their opinions off of that which is what most people do .
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I didn't follow bodybuilding much during Dorian's reign (unfortunately); I do know that Ronnie was super dominant when he put everything together, e.g. 98,99,01(AC) 03-05, but he also came close to losing in 01 & 02 and did lose in 06. So, at first glance it is easy to think Ronnie was the most dominant, and perhaps he was when he nailed it, but it seems Dorian was more consistent and therefore was never challenged to the degree Jay and Keven challenged Ronnie in 01 & 02 respectively and Jay beat him in 06. I think the closest anyone got to Doz was 97, but I agree with the result.
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ha ha ha ha please show me where I ever claimed almost all modern Ronnie shots are faked/touched up/oversharpened..
you're reduced to making shit up again
you do it when ever you post.
lately, any ronnie pic I post, be it from flexonline, bizzy screenshot, 99 olympia vid, forcedrep shots you name it - you have an excuse..
::)
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They make ridiculous statements about Dorian's "bricklayer" build and "keg with arms" that have absolutely no basis.
bullshit.
they have a very sound basis grounded in cold hard reality.
eg. this is from 1994, early on in 'the keg's' reign lol
compare to a classical physique like ronnie or flex:
note the difference: 8)
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So you base everything off of one pic where Doz is totally relaxed? There are plenty of pics out there with Ronnie's stomach looking distented...even at the 01 arnold classic - his best showing.
This pic is from 1994 too. It compares much better to your Ronnie/Flex pic, don't you think?
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you do it when ever you post.
lately, any ronnie pic I post, be it from flexonline, bizzy screenshot, 99 olympia vid, forcedrep shots you name it - you have an excuse..
::)
Again you can't back up bullshit kid we all know it .
I don't and NEVER have claimed ALL Ronnie pics are enhanced just a majority of the 99 screencaps made by Bizzy and a couple of other ones NO excuses needed . the Flexlonline shot I can prove wanna bet? ;)
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This pic is from 1994 too. It compares much better to your Ronnie/Flex pic, don't you think?
but it still loses.. 8)
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bullshit.
they have a very sound basis grounded in cold hard reality.
eg. this is from 1994, early on in 'the keg's' reign lol
compare to a classical physique like ronnie or flex:
note the difference: 8)
You're scared to post pics of Dorian posing and posing at his best . and FYI moron that's 1996 , you know what again? and LMFAO classical physique and Ronnie Coleman in the same sentence lol
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but it still loses.. 8)
ha ha ha most muscular is the only pose that wins the Mr Olympia lol Dorian trampled this too ;)
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This is a great MM shot. Not quite Ronnie, but great nonetheless...
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This is a great MM shot. Not quite Ronnie, but great nonetheless...
dorian was never 'quite ronnie'
except in the ab and thigh.
everything else, he loses. even his signature lat spread...much to the dismay of nuthuggers everywhere.. 8)
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dorian was never 'quite ronnie'
except in the ab and thigh.
everything else, he loses. even his signature lat spread...much to the dismay of nuthuggers everywhere.. 8)
ha ha ha ha you can barely see Ronnie's lats in the front latspread and guess what ? all rounds are physique rounds , this means they judges look for balance & proportion ( Yates ) density & dryness ( Yates ) posing & presentation ( Yates ) muscular bulk ( Yates ) lol Dorian's front latspread is without equal
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;)
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ND desperately posting the morphed pic again..
havent you listened to the rest of getbig about that shot? ::)
dorian never had platz's quad sweep. not even at 300 pounds, let alone 283..
sorry.
you of all people should know this.
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:-*
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ND desperately posting the morphed pic again..
havent you listened to the rest of getbig about that shot? ::)
dorian never had platz's quad sweep. not even at 300 pounds, let alone 283..
sorry.
you of all people should know this.
Hulkster desperately trying to make excuses for Dorian's making Ronnie look like a toy , and why are you posting two separate years? top pic 1994 bottom 1995 ;) and the guy who took the pic already corrected your bullshit claim it was ' morphed ' lol
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ND desperately posting the morphed pic again..
havent you listened to the rest of getbig about that shot? ::)
dorian never had platz's quad sweep. not even at 300 pounds, let alone 283..
sorry.
you of all people should know this.
And you listed your pic incorrectly again I already proved the double biceps is from 1994 ;)
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Did someone say conditioning?
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Great shot there. Check out this video...Dorian absolutely dominates Shawn, Kevin, and Nasser. It really puts into perspective just how thick and conditioned he was. No one even comes close in 1995 and that is one hell of a lineup.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5049884837576382067&ei=ODX1SbXhM53YqAPOoZnYAg&q=mr+olympia+1995
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HOW come Andreas NEVER had SHREDDED Abs??
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I didn't follow bodybuilding much during Dorian's reign (unfortunately); I do know that Ronnie was super dominant when he put everything together, e.g. 98,99,01(AC) 03-05, but he also came close to losing in 01 & 02 and did lose in 06. So, at first glance it is easy to think Ronnie was the most dominant, and perhaps he was when he nailed it, but it seems Dorian was more consistent and therefore was never challenged to the degree Jay and Keven challenged Ronnie in 01 & 02 respectively and Jay beat him in 06. I think the closest anyone got to Doz was 97, but I agree with the result.
lets have some objectivity here.
A perfect Shawn Ray beat a clearly out of shape Yates in 1994 and Dorian admitted he wasnt in his best shape.
The 93 O could easily have gone to Flex who was as well conditioned as Yates that year.
Nasser clearly beat Yates in 1997 and 1996.
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Isn't Dorian Yates an undeated 6x Mr. Olympia? That's more than Nasser or Ronnie can claim.
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Indeed.
lets have some objectivity here.
A perfect Shawn Ray beat a clearly out of shape Yates in 1994 and Dorian admitted he wasnt in his best shape.
The 93 O could easily have gone to Flex who was as well conditioned as Yates that year.
Nasser clearly beat Yates in 1997 and 1996.
Objectively speaking Ray didn't beat Yates in 1994, he was too small. Ray looked unreal, but was undersized plain and simple compared to Yates.
Nasser arguably should have won in 97, but not in 96.