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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Fury on May 21, 2009, 11:36:27 AM
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
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i can only conjecture but i'm guessing its not as bad as a beheading.
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
Besides intense fear and discomfort, there generally isn't any significant physical harm done. Hard to believe that there are those who would prefer to see 100's of thousands of people be possibly killed in an attack, rather then cause the discomfort of a maniacal, psychotic, determined to kill innocent people. You want to see harsh interrogation..check out the Israeli Mossad's methods. We don't have a problem dropping a nuke on Japan and killing tons of women and children, but god forbid we pour water on a terrorist. Absurd. Geneva convention rules should only apply to POW's in a specified conflict..not to Islamic fanatics who aren't fighting under a flag. Personally, I think these guys got off easy...lots of worse things we could have done to them. This whole issue is now about politics and has nothing to do with improving national security.
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i can only conjecture but i'm guessing its not as bad as a beheading.
lol. :)
I agree with BF's query: can't be too bad if it's a part of some military training.
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TC, they could blow these terrorists kisses, and the leftys in this country would raise hell about it.
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I say we start waterboarding common criminals as well!
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It can't be any worse than all those torture chambers and documented instances of Muslim torture. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.
Maybe simulated drowning is as bad as being electrocuted or having body parts amputated by swords? ???
Those SEALs (who are subjected to it multiple times) must be some bad doooooods!
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
Torture by beheading never seems to yield tangible results. It's too quick and leaves the person speechless.
However, since seals go through water boarding multiple times, I bet they give their trainers some really good intel about their personal lives.
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If it is not so bad every dangerous federal level criminal should be waterboarded. I assume they are.
Dahved Mirza should have been for stealing from Veterans.
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Torture by beheading never seems to yield tangible results.
However, since seals go through water boarding multiple times, I bet they give their trainers some really good intel about their personal lives.
If it's so dangerous, why would SEALs be subjected to it multiple times? Why risk killing someone that you've dumped years of training and fighting experience into? If there was the risk of death, why would they even bother? Would you really risk losing some of your best trained men in a time like this? SEALs are not a dimze a dozen. I'm not advocating or denouncing it but trying to figure this out.
Is it any worse than electrical shock, amputation or severe beatings (all Muslim fan favorites)?
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I say we start waterboarding common criminals as well!
see theres the difference common criminals here in the US are protected by the US constitution these terrorist have no such rights and therefor no such rights to violate...
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If it's so dangerous, why would SEALs be subjected to it multiple times? Why risk killing someone that you've dumped years of training and fighting experience into? If there was the risk of death, why would they even bother? Would you really risk losing some of your best trained men in a time like this? SEALs are not a dimze a dozen. I'm not advocating or denouncing it but trying to figure this out.
Is it any worse than electrical shock, amputation or severe beatings (all Muslim fan favorites)?
Dude, I was just kidding around.
I realize their is no room for humor while on a crusade. But some times you must stop and smell the Humus.
Get back in touch with your shakras or something. ;D
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Dude, I was just kidding around.
I realize their is no room for humor while on a crusade. But some times you must stop and smell the Humus.
Get back in touch with your shakras or something. ;D
;D
I'm burning out on the Muslim crusade shit. It gets boring after so much time.
While I don't know if I would demonize it and consider it "extreme torture" like so many people are quick to claim, I do question it's effectiveness. But that's a different story.
Then again, I have a real tough time feeling bad for these people after seeing so many of their videos on the internet. An eye for an eye.
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It doesn't matter how bad it is. We signed a treaty saying we will not torture. We signed that treaty because we don't want our soldiers tortured. After previous wars were over, we tried, imprisoned and even executed others for such war crimes.
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It doesn't matter how bad it is. We signed a treaty saying we will not torture. We signed that treaty because we don't want our soldiers tortured. After previous wars were over, we tried, imprisoned and even executed others for such war crimes.
I see that treaty is really working wonders on preventing the torture of our soldiers. Every body we've recovered that was kidnapped or captured has shown signs of extreme torture. And they're usually dead. ;)
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It doesn't matter how bad it is. We signed a treaty saying we will not torture. We signed that treaty because we don't want our soldiers tortured. After previous wars were over, we tried, imprisoned and even executed others for such war crimes.
Except terrorists don’t fall within the definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention.
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Except terrorists don’t fall within the definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention.
*gasp* but they have civil rights, don'tcha know?
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;D
I'm burning out on the Muslim crusade shit. It gets boring after so much time.
While I don't know if I would demonize it and consider it "extreme torture" like so many people are quick to claim, I do question it's effectiveness. But that's a different story.
Then again, I have a real tough time feeling bad for these people after seeing so many of their videos on the internet. An eye for an eye.
I've been fairly split on the subject myself. Does it work? How often does it work? How often does it not work? What's the morality involved? Ar we justified doing it? I can see both sides of every answer to each of those questions.
I wouldn't classify it as extreme torture.
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*gasp* but they have civil rights, don'tcha know?
Which ones? And which alleged civil right is being violated?
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Which ones? And which alleged civil right is being violated?
Not enough threads on their prayer mats?
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Not enough threads on their prayer mats?
I found the Bible incident in Afghanistan last week pretty interesting. We had no qualms about burning all those bibles that were sent over. But when a soldier used a Koran for target practice, well shit, millions of Muslims went insane over it. ::)
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
Seals KNOW they are going to get water boarded.... when someone gets waterboarded in an uncontrolled way they dont know they are being water boarded they think they are being DROWNED...
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I found the Bible incident in Afghanistan last week pretty interesting. We had no qualms about burning all those bibles that were sent over. But when a soldier used a Koran for target practice, well shit, millions of Muslims went insane over it. ::)
Definitely a double standard with these people.
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Seals KNOW they are going to get water boarded.... when someone gets waterboarded in an uncontrolled way they dont know they are being water boarded they think they are being DROWNED...
Can you prove that? Maybe the first time (maybe) but I doubt they didn't catch on.
I doubt the SEALs know exactly what is going on, either. Would kind of defeat the purpose of the training.
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Not enough threads on their prayer mats?
:) Turning up the AC, taking away desert . . . .
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Timfogarty, were you referring to the Geneva convention that we didn't ratify?
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Can you prove that? Maybe the first time (maybe) but I doubt they didn't catch on.
I doubt the SEALs know exactly what is going on, either. Would kind of defeat the purpose of the training.
Jessie Ventura says that if done incorrectly, that you can definitely drown by waterboarding... So while we may do our best not to kill someone that way, is it possible it can happen?
Seems like that the idea of not knowing if you're going to die or not is the general premise of torture.
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The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.
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If some jihadi scumbag was to waterboard me, they'd get nothing. On the other hand...leave me in a room full of bugs, I'd sing like a little bitch. Luckily they only behead u on Utube.
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The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.
Thats the heart of the matter...its not like the waterboarded saints. These people got what they had coming to them. Anybody know anybody who's been waterboarded,conversly anybody know anybody in the Pentagon or twin towers? A few here do.
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The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.
I think that the problem is that the ACLU goes overboard... most of them do.
I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.
People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.
There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.
I can not understand why you would think defending NAMBLA (which is disgusting) is really even remotely close to saying that we are the US and we should not torture.
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I think that the problem is that the ACLU goes overboard... most of them do.
I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.
People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.
There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.
I can not understand why you would think defending NAMBLA (which is disgusting) is really even remotely close to saying that we are the US and we should not torture.
I was merely citing yet another example of leftist types defending and championing the worst factions of society or humanity. Any right thinking person would be defending the rights of the child over the child molester. Any logical person defending their country from terrorist acts (which is totally different than having a prisoner of war from a country we are in a declared war with) would be more concerned with the safety and well being of it's citizens over that of a Maniacal jihadist, so unevolved that their own lives are expendable to themselves. As far as moral high ground..we still have it. Waterboarding is mild when it comes to other torture options..you could say that, considering all, we are pretty humane . This is all political bullshit..you don't think we've been interrogating people harshly many, many years? It's been an unspoken neccesity. That's the harsh reality..The Utopian world that liberals envision in nothing more than a misguided fantasy..and now one that threatens to undermine the security of our country.
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The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.
NAMBLA? NAMBLA? a half dozen guys who publish some literature? a case from 2000?
ACLU To Represent NAMBLA
By Martin Finucane
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, Aug. 31, 2000; 5:19 p.m. EDT
BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.
The family of Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge claims in its lawsuit that the North American Man/Boy Love Association and its Web site incited the molestation and murder of the boy in 1997.
The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association.
"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.
The ACLU has long accepted unpopular clients and despised causes, including Ku Klux Klansmen and neo-Nazis. In 1977, the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Ill. – home to many Holocaust survivors. Thousands of ACLU members quit and contributions plunged.
"The Constitution is for everybody. But there are some people who just don't understand that and never will," said Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member.
ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.
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I think it's pretty same to assume that most of us, even the most liberal on this board, would use "extreme" interrogation techniques to extract information if we knew some shitbag absolutely had critical information that would save the lives of innocents. Especially if those innocents were our immediate family and closest friends.
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
exhibit A : no better than the taliban :-\ at least those fuckers are uneducated..this idiot claims to go to uconn :-\
i might take an inkling to posting certain #s on craigs list again :)
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exhibit A : no better than the taliban :-\ at least those fuckers are uneducated..this idiot claims to go to uconn :-\
i might take an inkling to posting certain #s on craigs list again :)
Still following me around? ???
Not surprising that you're too stupid to see the whole point of this thread.
You take this place too seriously.
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BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.
. . .
ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.
Absolutely despicable. Indefensible.
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Even if you don't care about the moral aspect of waterboarding or other torture forms, it has been shown that it does not produce reliable information. Pragmatically, it is useless.
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Absolutely despicable. Indefensible.
I'm sure some Liberals on here will take you to task over this.
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I think it's pretty same to assume that most of us, even the most liberal on this board, would use "extreme" interrogation techniques to extract information if we knew some shitbag absolutely had critical information that would save the lives of innocents. Especially if those innocents were our immediate family and closest friends.
right click to view clearly
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Even if you don't care about the moral aspect of waterboarding or other torture forms, it has been shown that it does not produce reliable information. Pragmatically, it is useless.
That's the data used to support our "Official Policy" that we don't torture. There's a huge difference between the Official Policy..which is what is sold to the American Public and the rest of the world and the true Reality and neccesity of what really occurs. Once the CIA started showing memo's where attacks were prevented, suddenly leftists want to stop de-classifying all the memos. Obama's group only wants to reveal parts, not the effective results portions. If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.
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If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.
waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002
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That's the data used to support our "Official Policy" that we don't torture. There's a huge difference between the Official Policy..which is what is sold to the American Public and the rest of the world and the true Reality and neccesity of what really occurs. Once the CIA started showing memo's where attacks were prevented, suddenly leftists want to stop de-classifying all the memos. Obama's group only wants to reveal parts, not the effective results portions. If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.
I think the effectiveness of the of the CIA in general is overrated; most famously, a year or so prior to the collapse of the USSR they were still overestimating the the size of the Soviet economy by 50%. I think there is the general perception that the CIA is infallible but there is little evidence to support this and for this reason I see little evidence to suggest that waterboarding produces very effective information.
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waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002
I think it probably was; remember that the practise of kidnapping people off the streets of random countries to be tortured in Egypt or some other 3rd world country was implemented under Clinton. It has probably been used for decades but hadn't come to light prior to recent times. Most Americans aren't aware of CIA sponsored genocide and assassinations either but they are well documented. I think it is similar in the case of torture.
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I think the effectiveness of the of the CIA in general is overrated; most famously, a year or so prior to the collapse of the USSR they were still overestimating the the size of the Soviet economy by 50%. I think there is the general perception that the CIA is infallible but there is little evidence to support this and for this reason I see little evidence to suggest that waterboarding produces very effective information.
The "CIA" has never been a commonly accepted oxymoron lol.
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I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.
People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.
There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.
This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND
we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...
Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.
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waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002
I was referring more to the fact that it's been used historically for years..in fact it dates back to the Spanish inquisition and obviously produces results or it wouldn't continue to be utilized during modern times.
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The "CIA" has never been a commonly accepted oxymoron lol.
Good one Oz. ;)
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This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND
we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...
Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.
Completely agree. That's what I'm sayin. Comparing us with them is just flat out wrong. And I don't care about those animals either.
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I was referring more to the fact that it's been used historically for years..in fact it dates back to the Spanish inquisition and obviously produces results or it wouldn't continue to be utilized during modern times.
What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.
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A crazy mofo like Jason Bourne would never talk.
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This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND
we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...
Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.
This is my gripe. These ultra libs (not saying TU is one) couldn't give two flying fucks about these videos of Muslims beheading Americans, Japanese and foreigners from all other countries who were doing nothing but trying to help rebuild these countries or the mountains of other things they do yet they're flipping their shit over simulated drowning. It's pathetic. Can you imagine the uproar if we posted videos of a special forces soldier decapitating some Taliban scumbag out in Afghanistan?
I wonder if anyone here actually realizes that 99% of the American soldiers who were captured have ended up dead and their bodies ALWAYS show signs of severe torture. And we're supposed to feel bad about simulating drowning?
However, they should be focusing on the effectiveness of it. Not whether it constitutes torture or not. If it's not effective then they might as well stop doing it. That's how I feel, at least.
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Completely agree. That's what I'm sayin. Comparing us with them is just flat out wrong. And I don't care about those animals either.
Didn't Jesus offer his cheek? Not a good Christian I see... :-\
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What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.
Dude, it was an example showing the historical timeline..not an endorsement of the Spanish inquisition. Jeez.
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Dude, it was an example showing the historical timeline..not an endorsement of the Spanish inquisition. Jeez.
My point was that if it was used by the Spanish Inquisition that is hardly proof that it was effective for extracting information.
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This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND
we dont do have the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...
Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.
I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.
Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.
I FUCKING CARE.
I AM BETTER THAN THAT.
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I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.
Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.
I FUCKING CARE.
I AM BETTER THAN THAT.
I am sure we do and have done far worse than that. When we dump people off in countries so they can 'be disappeared', you can be sure bad stuff happens. Since WWII the morality of the USA has largely been an illusion in no small part due to the CIA.
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Didn't Jesus offer his cheek? Not a good Christian I see... :-\
Red herring. ::) Another atheist who is obsessed with religion.
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I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.
Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.
I FUCKING CARE.
I AM BETTER THAN THAT.
that i understand, the problem is EVERYTHING IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE and that arguement can be used everywhere if we start giving them trials, what next? civilian trials? civilian rights? maybe they should go to juvy? that arguement doesnt work...by that logic you shouldnt have any gun laws what so ever but you do for the greater good, this is the SAME THING
WE ARE STILL BETTER THEN THEM EVEN IF WE WERE TO KILL EVERY SINGLE CAPTIVE WE TOOK
when you start seeing other forms of interrogation techiniques that are harsher then SIMULATED drowning then worry for now just let it be, i agree with BF if it works it needs to be used if it doesnt the arguement is moot
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Red herring. ::) Another atheist who is obsessed with religion.
Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?
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I am sure we do and have done far worse than that. When we dump people off in countries so they can 'be disappeared', you can be sure bad stuff happens. Since WWII the morality of the USA has largely been an illusion in no small part due to the CIA.
And yet our morality still probably trumps the morality of any other first world nation.
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And yet our morality still probably trumps the morality of any other first world nation.
How so? New Zealand is a 1st world nation and has never done the things we have. No assassinations, genocides, invasions, coups, etc. It just doesn't follow.
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How so? New Zealand is a 1st world nation and has never done the things we have. No assassinations, genocides, invasions, coups, etc. It just doesn't follow.
Prove it. I should have said "superpower" as I would have put a gun to my head and taken the bet that you would reference some obscure nation that is not a player on the main stage. I'd be interested in seeing just how "nice" the New Zealand govt. has been to the indigenous people that live there. My guess is that they haven't been angels.
Let's try looking at the track records of most European countries, Russia, China. ;)
I know, I know. You'll probably point out Luxembourg or something now. ::)
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Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?
Christians dont claim to be morally superior to anybody, thats another atheist/liberal tactic...Also as christians we sin, i know this might be a novel concept to you but its true, we know we sin, God knows we sin, thats why Jesus gave his life for us...
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that i understand, the problem is EVERYTHING IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE and that arguement can be used everywhere if we start giving them trials, what next? civilian trials? civilian rights? maybe they should go to juvy? that arguement doesnt work...by that logic you shouldnt have any gun laws what so ever but you do for the greater good, this is the SAME THING
WE ARE STILL BETTER THEN THEM EVEN IF WE WERE TO KILL EVERY SINGLE CAPTIVE WE TOOK
when you start seeing other forms of interrogation techiniques that are harsher then SIMULATED drowning then worry for now just let it be, i agree with BF if it works it needs to be used if it doesnt the arguement is moot
I don't believe in gun laws either... Everyone should be able to carry as strapped as they want to. Period.
I'm not talking about the issue with trials or tribunals or any of that stuff... As far as I'm concerned, they are POWs... You can call them terrorists, but if this is a "War on Terror", then they are Prisoners of War.
Yes, we don't go around beheading people, but just because it's not on the same level of wrong, doesn't make it not wrong anyway.
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Christians dont claim to be morally superior to anybody, thats another atheist/liberal tactic...Also as christians we sin, i know this might be a novel concept to you but its true, we know we sin, God knows we sin, thats why Jesus gave his life for us...
Follow Jesus' example and be less bloodthirsty, or do you prefer Yahweh the Angry to him?
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we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...
Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.
here is the problem: there are about a billion arabs in the world. there are maybe a few hundred thousand arabs who are trying to kill us. of the few thousand people we held in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, some were innocent, caught up in this only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. some were adolescents. if we are torturing innocent children, we have certain lost the moral high ground.
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Prove it. I should have said "superpower" as I would have put a gun to my head and taken the bet that you would reference some obscure nation that is not a player on the main stage. I'd be interested in seeing just how "nice" the New Zealand govt. has been to the indigenous people that live there. My guess is that they haven't been angels.
Let's try looking at the track records of most European countries, Russia, China. ;)
I know, I know. You'll probably point out Luxembourg or something now. ::)
NZ has tried to make amends for what happened to the Maori. Superpower...yes. Well, it begs the question as to what one needs to do in order to be a 'superpower'. I think I would prefer not to be, given the things that are required in order to be a superpower. The UK did bad things but after WWII and the defeat of the Nazis they realised they could not employ Nazi-like means to maintain their empire, so slowly and not too elegantl, they gave it up. We should do the same, not only for moral reasons but also because it is contributing to our bankruptcy and financial dissolution.
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I don't believe in gun laws either... Everyone should be able to carry as strapped as they want to. Period.
I'm not talking about the issue with trials or tribunals or any of that stuff... As far as I'm concerned, they are POWs... You can call them terrorists, but if this is a "War on Terror", then they are Prisoners of War.
Yes, we don't go around beheading people, but just because it's not on the same level of wrong, doesn't make it not wrong anyway.
so you believe that citizens should be able to have fully automatic weapons, bazookas, rocket launchers?
I was using the legal isssue to show another slippery slope of being to lenient on these ppl...
Ok so you believe its wrong DONT FOR A SECOND SAY THAT IT CAUSES US TO LOSS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND again thats assinine and untrue if you believe that makes us equivilant to them then i dont even know what to say to you.
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Follow Jesus' example and be less bloodthirsty, or do you prefer Yahweh the Angry to him?
you strive to follow Jesus' example, how do you know im not striving?
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here is the problem: there are about a billion arabs in the world. there are maybe a few hundred thousand arabs who are trying to kill us. of the few thousand people we held in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, some were innocent, caught up in this only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. some were adolescents. if we are torturing innocent children, we have certain lost the moral high ground.
LOL omg so theoretically water boarding an innocent child and it is theortical since you have no proof that a child has been waterboarded and further more that a innocent child has been waterboarded is equivilant to using mental retards to suicide bomb innocent civilians? ::) AGAIN us waterboarding does not cause us to lose the moral high ground that is just about the most assisine assertion ive heard on here. Even if we decapitated every captive we took we would still be miles above those bastards...
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I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? ???
Only one way to know; have it done to you.
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you strive to follow Jesus' example, how do you know im not striving?
I don't follow imaginary figures.
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Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?
Another red herring/straw man. I never said I was morally superior to anyone. ::) This has zero to do with the thread.
And no, you don't need to cite a passage from a book you don't believe in, inspired by a being you don't believe exists. What is it with atheists who can't stop talking about God?? lol . . .
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Okay....SEALs do drown proofing all the time in the first two phases of BUD/S and also deal with in SERE.
PJs deal with the same thing in their indoc, and then some. Read BHD and Tom Wilkinson will talk about how the guys were either expected to make the underwater swim or pass out and then retest.
Go through SERE school and see the physical abuse dished out there. I talked to a Recon buddy last week about SERE and he filled me in. Cry me a river for the Hajis getting waterboarded.
It doesn't matter if you ask for the drownproofing/waterboarding/etc, it's the same shit. Real men do it ask part of their training and the left wing can't seem to justify doing to extract useful intel but it's okay to break down and build up our elite soldiers.
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I don't follow imaginary figures.
then quit bringing your imaginary figures up...
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then quit bringing your imaginary figures up...
But you do.
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But you do.
i didnt bring him up you did, when you asserted that b/c bb was a christian he shouldnt feel the way he does...
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America, where criminals have more rights than their victims. :)
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What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
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They should carry out waterboarding in every school in America since it's so much fun!
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Only one way to know; have it done to you.
I was going to say earlier in the thread that I'm open to having it done to me. Sup CIA!
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I was going to say earlier in the thread that I'm open to having it done to me. Sup CIA!
Unfortunately, unless you're a terrorist, deviate, degenerate or criminal lowlife, your waterboarding won't illicit any sympathy from the liberals. Those are the types whose rights they are obviously most interested in protecting.
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I was going to say earlier in the thread that I'm open to having it done to me. Sup CIA!
I heard that Matzi and TA want to get waterboarded too....but they want them to replace the water with cum...I think it's called a gay bukake but who am I to judge? :-\
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I was going to say earlier in the thread that I'm open to having it done to me. Sup CIA!
I'd do it but am not willing to drive that far. Even if you did have it done the experience wouldn't have the same effect (wouldn't be torture) because there would be no fear of being killed.
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I'd do it but am not willing to drive that far. Even if you did have it done the experience wouldn't have the same effect (wouldn't be torture) because there would be no fear of being killed.
Pain sucks even when you know it's going to end.
Waterboarding isn't beheading but it's far from a comfortable feeling.
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so you believe that citizens should be able to have fully automatic weapons, bazookas, rocket launchers?
I was using the legal isssue to show another slippery slope of being to lenient on these ppl...
Ok so you believe its wrong DONT FOR A SECOND SAY THAT IT CAUSES US TO LOSS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND again thats assinine and untrue if you believe that makes us equivilant to them then i dont even know what to say to you.
I think a citizen should be able to have a gun, any gun... Yes. I don't see rocket launchers and bazookas the same as guns, but now that you mention it.
Yes... I should be able to buy them if I want.
Yes, it's wrong... Your analogy has a bad premise. You're saying it's ok because it's not as bad as them. I'm saying it's not ok because it's wrong.
There's wrong and there's right... There's no more wrong than this, or more wrong than that.
Is it as bad as beheading or other things, no... Of course not. But it doesn't make you right just because you're the lesser of two evils.
That's like saying you need to choose between Hitler or Stalin. Who the hell wants to make that choice? Further more, who SHOULD?
No one.
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I'd do it but am not willing to drive that far. Even if you did have it done the experience wouldn't have the same effect (wouldn't be torture) because there would be no fear of being killed.
I said I would be open to waterboarding, not sodomy.
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Unfortunately, unless you're a terrorist, deviate, degenerate or criminal lowlife, your waterboarding won't illicit any sympathy from the liberals. Those are the types whose rights they are obviously most interested in protecting.
What a ridiculous statement. It just so happens that no one is going around water-boarding soccer moms, or I'm pretty sure everyone would have a problem with that too.
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I think a citizen should be able to have a gun, any gun... Yes. I don't see rocket launchers and bazookas the same as guns, but now that you mention it.
Yes... I should be able to buy them if I want.
Yes, it's wrong... Your analogy has a bad premise. You're saying it's ok because it's not as bad as them. I'm saying it's not ok because it's wrong.
There's wrong and there's right... There's no more wrong than this, or more wrong than that.
Is it as bad as beheading or other things, no... Of course not. But it doesn't make you right just because you're the lesser of two evils.
That's like saying you need to choose between Hitler or Stalin. Who the hell wants to make that choice? Further more, who SHOULD?
No one.
well see there is a point in time when things need to be taken into account for the greater good so to speak...gang members running around with fully automatic weapons isnt good for anybody, never the less rocket launchers etc...
I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK IN THIS CONTEXT...I personally believe its ok but in your context its fine that you dont. Im not defending water boarding here im defending our moral high ground in relation to the terrorists theres a distinction. Now again personally i think its justified if it is proven that it produces positive results if not again then its a moot point.
However even though you believe it to be wrong DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE OUR MORAL HIGH GROUND... ::) again that arguement is just assinine. You admitted yourself that they do far worse to our soldiers their citizens etc...Im not justifying waterboarding here im saying that even with us waterboarding we are still miles above them in the morals department...and you cant argue that so to say that when we waterboard we lose the moral high ground is ignorant.
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What a ridiculous statement. It just so happens that no one is going around water-boarding soccer moms, or I'm pretty sure everyone would have a problem with that too.
You missed the point..when was the last time you heard a liberal show empathy for the Victims of deviates and criminals. It's always the huge concern over the treatment and rights of the Predators or terrorists. If you ask them..what about the lives of the people in L.A. that were saved by waterboarding.. the liberal viewpoint is that the comfort of the terrorist suspect greatly outweighs the lives of the potential victims. Everything they do or say illustrates that fact.
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You missed the point..when was the last time you heard a liberal show empathy for the Victims of deviates and criminals. It's always the huge concern over the treatment and rights of the Predators or terrorists. If you ask them..what about the lives of the people in L.A. that were saved by waterboarding.. the liberal viewpoint is that the comfort of the terrorist suspect greatly outweighs the lives of the potential victims. Everything they do or say illustrates that fact.
I will just have to disagree on this.
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well see there is a point in time when things need to be taken into account for the greater good so to speak...gang members running around with fully automatic weapons isnt good for anybody, never the less rocket launchers etc...
I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK IN THIS CONTEXT...I personally believe its ok but in your context its fine that you dont. Im not defending water boarding here im defending our moral high ground in relation to the terrorists theres a distinction. Now again personally i think its justified if it is proven that it produces positive results if not again then its a moot point.
However even though you believe it to be wrong DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE OUR MORAL HIGH GROUND... ::) again that arguement is just assinine. You admitted yourself that they do far worse to our soldiers their citizens etc...Im not justifying waterboarding here im saying that even with us waterboarding we are still miles above them in the morals department...and you cant argue that so to say that when we waterboard we lose the moral high ground is ignorant.
I guess our premise of right and wrong just don't match. Again, who had the higher moral ground? Stalin or Hitler?
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I guess our premise of right and wrong just don't match. Again, who had the higher moral ground? Stalin or Hitler?
There are degress of right and wrong as you have already admitted...
waterboarding doesnt make us equivilant to those deusch bags in anyway shape of form again we are still miles above those malecious fucktards...by you saying we lose our moral high ground you are saying that we are equivilant to them...again this is just about the most assinine thing ive heard on here. I dont think stalin and hitler are a good comparison for our situation here i understand your point but again waterboarding doesnt equate to decapitation, suicide bombing innocent civilians with mental defectives, intentionally hiding within a civilian population...to say so is ignorant. I understand you think its wrong but by your logic a person who beats up a guy is as bad as a person who kills a guy.
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what about the lives of the people in L.A. that were saved by waterboarding..
I think that was an episode of 24, not real life.
no terrorist plot has been foiled by information gleaned from waterboarding
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waterboarding doesn't make us equivalent to those douche bags in anyway shape of form again we are still miles above those malicious fucktards...by you saying we lose our moral high ground you are saying that we are equivalent to them...again this is just about the most asinine thing I've heard on here.
ok, it just makes us hypocrites, as we tried and executed people at the end of WWII for waterboarding American prisoners of war
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ok, it just makes us hypocrites, as we tried and executed people at the end of WWII for waterboarding American prisoners of war
hmmm was it simply for waterboarding or a host of other torture?
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ok, it just makes us hypocrites, as we tried and executed people at the end of WWII for waterboarding American prisoners of war
LOL, nice try but you're out.
I will sum it up and say this, every side judge by his own standarts to fit his own ambitions.
The terrorists behead people, we waterboard them, everyone have their own view point and legitimacy that they rely on.
Also, you cannot compare 2 completely different situations that are 70 years apart.
The bottom line is very simple, are you willing to have no leverage point what so ever on people who want to kill you? Yes or no will suffice.
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I said I would be open to waterboarding, not sodomy.
You gay homo!!! Waterboarding leads to watersports and eventually butt sex with you, LOL! You're a sick bastard!!! :)
Back to the topic... There are a few interesting interviews with Jesse Ventura talking about waterboarding.
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hmmm was it simply for waterboarding or a host of other torture?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
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I think that was an episode of 24, not real life.
no terrorist plot has been foiled by information gleaned from waterboarding
Anyway......
CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)
This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘- ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”
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Anyway......
CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)
This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘- ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”
Do you have good genetics?
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One of my closet friends did SERE training. We'll be talking this weekend so I'll ask about the waterboarding.
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One of my closet friends did SERE training. We'll be talking this weekend so I'll ask about the waterboarding.
Do you have good genetics?
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Do you have good genetics?
Yes.
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I fail to see why that matters. My dad played D1 football so i guess they're fine and my family is very long lived.
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Still following me around? ???
Not surprising that you're too stupid to see the whole point of this thread.
You take this place too seriously.
pot ..kettle..heehaw! dont worry...everytime i see a post made by you...i remember your face and i start giggling
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It can't be any worse than all those torture chambers and documented instances of Muslim torture. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.
Maybe simulated drowning is as bad as being electrocuted or having body parts amputated by swords? ???
Those SEALs (who are subjected to it multiple times) must be some bad doooooods!
yea, it can't be worse than the Inquisition style shit or being slowly boiled alive. Countless tortures are no doubt worse, what's your point? Also, did seals sign on to have it done several times a day, day after day after day?
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Yes.
In what sense? Long muscle bellies? Good structure? Good Growth response?
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In what sense? Long muscle bellies? Good structure? Good Growth response?
Tall, good response to working out, fast metabolism, decent structure and also healthy with no health issues. Not being redundant but no health issues means no conditions, medications, doctor visits, etc...
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Decide is very jealous for some reason of people who respond to weight training. Just juice and get it over with.
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Decide is very jealous for some reason of people who respond to weight training. Just juice and get it over with.
HH6 is juicing a common practice in today's military? I mean if you have the ability to be stronger than your enemy wouldn't it make sense to be so? Especially if you were still able to complete your other duties fitness wise.
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Decide is very jealous for some reason of people who respond to weight training. Just juice and get it over with.
Even if I were to juice, there is no guarantee I would be a genetically gifted hormone responder. Moreover juicing is a serious decision for which you need the right circumstances, which I don't have.
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Tall, good response to working out, fast metabolism, decent structure and also healthy with no health issues. Not being redundant but no health issues means no conditions, medications, doctor visits, etc...
That's great. :)
Genetics are everything.
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Makes sense right. I had this exact conversation with one of my soldiers on wednesday. I would be juiced or HGH'd out of my mind if I could...
Moderate doses of HGH seem to work great....guys would burn fat on MD moderated juice or HGH. Some guys do juice. I honestly thought I'd see more bigger guys here at the mil gyms on Bliss. The only mass use of steroids is by the SEALS as far as what I've seen. Those guys are always bigger...good for them.
Decide..what u need, is to have hit ur genetic potential first. U have to lift hard, eat and rest. If u can't do that, then I guess ur righjt. I'm 5'10ish and run between 220-230. I'm 212 now because of diet and more cardio then I care to do. I'm more comfortable at 220 given my job etc. But I'm gearing up for deployment and want to be able to do more running, rucking etc during train-up. I'll get back to normal in the fall. I'd juice if I could without question, but its against the law.
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Makes sense right. I had this exact conversation with one of my soldiers on wednesday. I would be juiced or HGH'd out of my mind if I could...
Moderate doses of HGH seem to work great....guys would burn fat on MD moderated juice or HGH. Some guys do juice. I honestly thought I'd see more bigger guys here at the mil gyms on Bliss. The only mass use of steroids is by the SEALS as far as what I've seen. Those guys are always bigger...good for them.
Decide..what u need, is to have hit ur genetic potential first. U have to lift hard, eat and rest. If u can't do that, then I guess ur righjt. I'm 5'10ish and run between 220-230. I'm 212 now because of diet and more cardio then I care to do. I'm more comfortable at 220 given my job etc. But I'm gearing up for deployment and want to be able to do more running, rucking etc during train-up. I'll get back to normal in the fall. I'd juice if I could without question, but its against the law.
If the SEALS are on it then testing can't be too strict can it? You could probably get away with it.
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Makes sense right. I had this exact conversation with one of my soldiers on wednesday. I would be juiced or HGH'd out of my mind if I could...
Moderate doses of HGH seem to work great....guys would burn fat on MD moderated juice or HGH. Some guys do juice. I honestly thought I'd see more bigger guys here at the mil gyms on Bliss. The only mass use of steroids is by the SEALS as far as what I've seen. Those guys are always bigger...good for them.
Decide..what u need, is to have hit ur genetic potential first. U have to lift hard, eat and rest. If u can't do that, then I guess ur righjt. I'm 5'10ish and run between 220-230. I'm 212 now because of diet and more cardio then I care to do. I'm more comfortable at 220 given my job etc. But I'm gearing up for deployment and want to be able to do more running, rucking etc during train-up. I'll get back to normal in the fall. I'd juice if I could without question, but its against the law.
I have no problem with juicing but as I said, I would want to do it for at least half a year on mild doses of test with all the right medication to get everything back to normal when I stop under stable circumstances.
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If the SEALS are on it then testing can't be too strict can it? You could probably get away with it.
Its not official SEAL policy..but generally SOF guys aren't monsters. They wink and nudge I'm sure. Keep it low etc.
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Anyway......
CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/66895.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/723640/-The-torture-prevented-a-west-coast-9-11-lie
the plot was foiled in 2002, KSM was arrested in 2003
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Yeah and other CIA memo's say that it worked...The Daily KOS is not a worthwhile source.
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Hi Dracula!!!! Look what I stumbled across the other day when we were arguing. Serious question, though. Are you retarded or do you just act it?
You just can't stay away can you? Even after I decimated that pic of your 130 steroid abusing disaster of a physique. Get off my nuts, dude.
You are a god.
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Yeah and other CIA memo's say that it worked...The Daily KOS is not a worthwhile source.
says the guy who references cnsnews.com
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Yeah and other CIA memo's say that it worked...The Daily KOS is not a worthwhile source.
I'm not arguing that torture doesn't work in some cases. I'm wondering if torture itself is appropriate in a democracy and at what point will we have US citizens being legally tortured.
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pot ..kettle..heehaw! dont worry...everytime i see a post made by you...i remember your face and i start giggling
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/ProteinFarts/5-1.jpg)
Hi Dracula. Remember when you tried to "own" me by posting this shiteous picture the other day? You just can't stay away. It must really suck being so scarred on a forum that you have to keep following me around.
The best part of that pic? You were on nearly 1g/week of Sust and copious amounts of other gear. Congratulations on your shit genetics and h-frame. ;D
You are a god.
I deleted that post. Feel free to quote this one.
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I'm not arguing that torture doesn't work in some cases. I'm wondering if torture itself is appropriate in a democracy and at what point will we have US citizens being legally tortured.
Come on. Cut the fearmongering bullshit, Cheney. Torturing terrorists captured in a foreign country and American citizens are two entirely different things.
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I'd argue that in order to preserve that democracy, things get very blurry. U guys who have an issue with waterboarding would go insane with what JSOC does on a daily basis to protect this country. Apparently Obama doesn't care, he justed apointed their old boss as head of the war in Afghanistan.
Tim..I took the first google article I came to...whatever. If they're right leaning..great u got me. For the record, i would have used a more crediable source had I known who they were.
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Come on. Cut the fearmongering bullshit, Cheney. Torturing terrorists captured in a foreign country and American citizens are two entirely different things.
Are they?
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Yes, unless u really care about people who hate u.
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Are they?
Do terrorists have US citizenship? You sound like that Cheney guy you hate so much. Funny how that works.
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Yes, unless u really care about people who hate u.
Caring, or not, is irrelevant.
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No its relevant. More to the point, this crap didn't just start under Bush or on 9/12. The net, 24 news and the information age have made it all seem like we went from this wonderful democracy to shaddy characters. We've always done whats in our best interest. Hell we used to assasinate people we didn't like, and knock over governments.
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/ProteinFarts/5-1.jpg)
Hi Dracula. Remember when you tried to "own" me by posting this shiteous picture the other day? You just can't stay away. It must really suck being so scarred on a forum that you have to keep following me around.
The best part of that pic? You were on nearly 1g/week of Sust and copious amounts of other gear. Congratulations on your shit genetics and h-frame. ;D
I deleted that post. Feel free to quote this one.
You are a god.
He has horrible genetics.
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I got into this discussion at lunch with some dudes at work... and it made me think on a couple of other points.
Who are we capturing? Where did they come from?
Are we water-boarding people we picked up in Iraq who were not terrorists but defending their homeland?
Take for instance the idea that we're going to water-board those guys that were just caught in New York... Trying to find out if there's more of them or whatever... Ok... let's say I get that.
We're trying to stop an imminent threat against the United States of America.
Is there an imminent threat from these people we've picked up in Iraq? I can't imagine seeing as how we invaded their country, they didn't invade ours.
Maybe that's something I need to understand better... Where did these detainees we're water-boarding come from?
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You are a god.
He has horrible genetics.
I daresay that yours might even be better.
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I daresay that yours might even be better.
Yes, mine are obviously better but that is not saying much.
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Yes, mine are obviously better but that is not saying much.
If you dieted down you would look pretty good. Just stick with it. Have some fucking confidence in your physique.
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/ProteinFarts/5-1.jpg)
Hi Dracula. Remember when you tried to "own" me by posting this shiteous picture the other day? You just can't stay away. It must really suck being so scarred on a forum that you have to keep following me around.
The best part of that pic? You were on nearly 1g/week of Sust and copious amounts of other gear. Congratulations on your shit genetics and h-frame. ;D
you sure hit one out of the ball park dere champ!
remember Dracula got a lot of women! hawhaw just ate hay! ;D
remember to show your mum my pic...i'm sure she remembers my voice ;D
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
again it wasnt simply for waterboarding, this is from your own liberal lefty source..."I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death." Im thinking they probably did a little worse then water boarding call me crazy...
::)
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this could all be solved if they instead of waterboarding made bad people smell rossie o donnels ass :)
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I got into this discussion at lunch with some dudes at work... and it made me think on a couple of other points.
Who are we capturing? Where did they come from?
Are we water-boarding people we picked up in Iraq who were not terrorists but defending their homeland?
Take for instance the idea that we're going to water-board those guys that were just caught in New York... Trying to find out if there's more of them or whatever... Ok... let's say I get that.
We're trying to stop an imminent threat against the United States of America.
Is there an imminent threat from these people we've picked up in Iraq? I can't imagine seeing as how we invaded their country, they didn't invade ours.
Maybe that's something I need to understand better... Where did these detainees we're water-boarding come from?
holmes im sure hh6 could answer this better then i could but i think they come from pretty much everywhere, afghanistan, iraq etc..its not only about keeping our civilians safe holmes its also about keeping our soldiers safe so this ppl picked up in iraq might have info that could affect our soldiers...
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holmes im sure hh6 could answer this better then i could but i think they come from pretty much everywhere, afghanistan, iraq etc..its not only about keeping our civilians safe holmes its also about keeping our soldiers safe so this ppl picked up in iraq might have info that could affect our soldiers...
Yeah, but isn't the premise then that we should be over there in the first place?
Which we shouldn't.
No one has ever given me a good reason for us being in Iraq... Not one.
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Yeah, but isn't the premise then that we should be over there in the first place?
Which we shouldn't.
No one has ever given me a good reason for us being in Iraq... Not one.
Maybe its just me but that doesnt have anything to do with it, if these ppl have info that could affect the lives of US civilians here at home or US soldiers there abroad then it doesnt matter the info should be obtained...im not saying that you should go straight to waterboarding which im sure they dont but if they dont respond to other lighter interrogation methods, you dont just sit on your hands...sorry if it was me id start cutting off fingers one by one until i got something useful.
Like i told RPF in another thread this idea that we are more civilized then they are and shouldnt do these things is a concept and only exists in the minds of humans, in other words its not real...life and death are real consequences and you need to be prepared to do whats necessary or be prepared to die b/c you wont do whats necessary or by extention let others die.
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Maybe its just me but that doesnt have anything to do with it, if these ppl have info that could affect the lives of US civilians here at home or US soldiers there abroad then it doesnt matter the info should be obtained...im not saying that you should go straight to waterboarding which im sure they dont but if they dont respond to other lighter interrogation methods, you dont just sit on your hands...sorry if it was me id start cutting off fingers one by one until i got something useful.
Like i told RPF in another thread this idea that we are more civilized then they are and shouldnt do these things is a concept and only exists in the minds of humans, in other words its not real...life and death are real consequences and you need to be prepared to do whats necessary or be prepared to die b/c you wont do whats necessary or by extention let others die.
So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.
I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
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So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.
I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
ONLY if you are a white christian >:( its NOT terrorism then...i repeat!
and remember white christians also have magical bombs that when thrown on villages..ONLY kill bad people :)
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So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.
I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
Would you rather have had us pull out all together when we realized there where no wmd? LOL it would have been a blood bath, no matter how bad iraq got it would have been 10 times worse if the US had just pulled out. Hind sights 20/20 are you saying that b/c it was a mistake we should not do things that protect our soldiers?
fact is we are there, was it a mistake, ya ill agree, it wasnt an intentional lie like some on here would have you believe but a bad mistake ya...However we did topple a sadistic murderous dictator, have rid the world of thousands of jihadists i think youll agree thats a good thing, and tried to institute a democratic government...Its not like we have done all bad shit...
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ONLY if you are a white christian >:( its NOT terrorism then...i repeat!
and remember white christians also have magical bombs that when thrown on villages..ONLY kill bad people :)
This is not about magical bombs.
Don't get me wrong, if we are in a War, a real war, where people are trying to kill me for no reason, then if I go to an area where the enemy is supposed to be and there are people there, then they ARE the enemy.
In WW2, when the troops marched through France and into Germany (or Poland if they were the Soviet Military) and there were people in the area of battle, they were enemies, make no mistake about that.
However, if I'm the one intruding on another person's country, and they in turn fight me... How are they the terrorist? It's their country, not mine.
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Would you rather have had us pull out all together when we realized there where no wmd? LOL it would have been a blood bath, no matter how bad iraq got it would have been 10 times worse if the US had just pulled out. Hind sights 20/20 are you saying that b/c it was a mistake we should not do things that protect our soldiers?
fact is we are there, was it a mistake, ya ill agree, it wasnt an intentional lie like some on here would have you believe but a bad mistake ya...However we did topple a sadistic murderous dictator, have rid the world of thousands of jihadists i think youll agree thats a good thing, and tried to institute a democratic government...Its not like we have done all bad shit...
Says who? Who says it would have been a blood bath? The same people who said it would be an easy war? The same people who planned it and said it wouldn't be an issue? The same people who didn't expect the people of the country to want us to get out?
I'm supposed to believe that THOSE people know what the hell they're talking about?
Bullshit.
Obama should pull everyone out of Iraq immediately.
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Says who? Who says it would have been a blood bath? The same people who said it would be an easy war? The same people who planned it and said it wouldn't be an issue? The same people who didn't expect the people of the country to want us to get out?
I'm supposed to believe that THOSE people know what the hell they're talking about?
Bullshit.
Obama should pull everyone out of Iraq immediately.
LOL WTF DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPEND, multiple different factions fighting for control, yea your right man maybe they would have just flipped fuking coin over it ::).
Iraq is a much more stable place now bro...remember back when we first went in the first few months or even years that place was the wild fuking west, you think that us leaving would have been good for that? dont be ignorant...i dont need anybody to tell me what would have happened its common fuking sense.
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LOL WTF DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPEND, multiple different factions fighting for control, yea your right man maybe they would have just flipped fuking coin over it ::).
Iraq is a much more stable place now bro...remember back when we first went in the first few months or even years that place was the wild fuking west, you think that us leaving would have been good for that? dont be ignorant...i dont need anybody to tell me what would have happened its common fuking sense.
It's not fucking common sense dude... It's what you "think" will happen... More guessing, it's all a crap shoot and you know it... You THINK it will happen, but you don't know.
Either way, who cares about the stupid fucking country... It's a bullshit reason to stay.
You don't see me running to Somalia to stabilize that place.
Let them figure it out... It's their fucking country.
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This is not about magical bombs.
Don't get me wrong, if we are in a War, a real war, where people are trying to kill me for no reason, then if I go to an area where the enemy is supposed to be and there are people there, then they ARE the enemy.
and saddam ws the enemy why? ???
we kill thousands...with thousands of men stranded in Iraq with their wives and kiddies killed...and then we are SURPRISED ::) when those men are pissed off at us and having no other option join terrorist orginization...or we are SURPRISED when they try to kill our soldiers...yeesh :-\
pretty conveniently facking contrived isn't it?
its a case of giving a dog a bad name and hanging him
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It's not fucking common sense dude... It's what you "think" will happen... More guessing, it's all a crap shoot and you know it... You THINK it will happen, but you don't know.
Either way, who cares about the stupid fucking country... It's a bullshit reason to stay.
You don't see me running to Somalia to stabilize that place.
Let them figure it out... It's their fucking country.
I think youre getting the wrong message bro, im all for getting our soldiers out as soon as possible but once we commited we couldnt pull out...ask hh6 he has more info then the both of us on the topic, ill put dollars to donuts he agrees with me over you...again it really is common fuking sense man.
If you believed somalia had wmd that they intended to use or terrorist links to organizations that wanted to hurt us we probably would be there...If we believe that ppl in that country are out to harm us ITS OUR FUKING BUSINESS...
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I think youre getting the wrong message bro, im all for getting our soldiers out as soon as possible but once we commited we couldnt pull out...
well duhh...are you gonna tell me we were stupid enough not to actually foresee this?
pffft...we need a presence there..we got it ...
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I think youre getting the wrong message bro, im all for getting our soldiers out as soon as possible but once we commited we couldnt pull out...ask hh6 he has more info then the both of us on the topic, ill put dollars to donuts he agrees with me over you...again it really is common fuking sense man.
If you believed somalia had wmd that they intended to use or terrorist links to organizations that wanted to hurt us we probably would be there...If we believe that ppl in that country are out to harm us ITS OUR FUKING BUSINESS...
I don't really care WHAT he believes about this... I'm sure people thought Vietnam would be a huge cluster when we pulled out too, but we did it and it turned out just fine.
I'm sure the people in that country will figure it out... Someone will step up and lead and take charge. It will probably be another Saddam type, but that's ok... That's what THAT country needs.
Everyone thinks it will turn to shit, but no one has any proof... I'm sure France thought the US would implode too, and they were right, but it took us 400 years.
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I don't really care WHAT he believes about this... I'm sure people thought Vietnam would be a huge cluster when we pulled out too, but we did it and it turned out just fine.
I'm sure the people in that country will figure it out... Someone will step up and lead and take charge. It will probably be another Saddam type, but that's ok... That's what THAT country needs.
Everyone thinks it will turn to shit, but no one has any proof... I'm sure France thought the US would implode too, and they were right, but it took us 400 years.
ahh if i remember correctly when we pulled out of vietnam the thousands of ppl died...thats what i was talking about now think about multiple factions all armed very well vying for power, you think they will just sit down and talk? LOL no bro...Yes sooner or later after the initial BLOOD BATH and when one side gets power shit will settle down slightly.
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ahh if i remember correctly when we pulled out of vietnam the thousands of ppl died...thats what i was talking about now think about multiple factions all armed very well vying for power, you think they will just sit down and talk? LOL no bro...Yes sooner or later after the initial BLOOD BATH and when one side gets power shit will settle down slightly.
I'm reading that while people were killed... It was the US action of bringing in Cambodia that really caused the problem.
Who cares anyway? It's their country... if they want to kill each other, then let them... That's THEIR business... Mine is our troops who shouldn't be there anyway.
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Who cares anyway? It's their country... if they want to kill each other, then let them... That's THEIR business... Mine is our troops who shouldn't be there anyway.
I AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the fact is though that we are there, you arent getting this, if we pull out a lot of ppl will die...We made the mess we should clean it up or at least get them to the point where they can stand on their own.
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Do terrorists have US citizenship? You sound like that Cheney guy you hate so much. Funny how that works.
Do you believe the Geneva convention only applies to citizens of countries that have signed or ratified it? If the answer is yes, you're essentially saying it's OK for them to behead or torture captured US Soldiers/reporters/citizens/etc...
If detainees have no rights, neither do we. Before you go all "Never again!" please bear in mind that the Nazis started off exterminating gypsies and other undesirables before initiating the 'final solution'.
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I AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the fact is though that we are there, you arent getting this, if we pull out a lot of ppl will die...We made the mess we should clean it up or at least get them to the point where they can stand on their own.
I don't agree with that... Fuck 'em.
That's just me though.
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I don't agree with that... Fuck 'em.
That's just me though.
Not only are you a brave man with average genetics. I agree with what you have been saying. :)
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Not only are you a brave man with average genetics. I agree with what you have been saying. :)
Your facetiousness knows no bounds. :D
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Your facetiousness knows no bounds. :D
Are we sure it's not just straight up sarcasm?
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Are we sure it's not just straight up sarcasm?
Actually I am dead serious. :)
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Not only are you a brave man with average genetics. I agree with what you have been saying. :)
I'm not following you...what does people's genetics have to do with their opinions. Here's a shot of me. How are my genetics? No steroids by the way. Does my opinion hold more weight now.
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I'm not following you...what does people's genetics have to do with their opinions. Here's a shot of me. How are my genetics? No steroids by the way. Does my opinion hold more weight now.
Genetics=Everything
You=Huge Aryan with Muscles!
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I think it's pretty same to assume that most of us, even the most liberal on this board, would use "extreme" interrogation techniques to extract information if we knew some shitbag absolutely had critical information that would save the lives of innocents. Especially if those innocents were our immediate family and closest friends.
That may be the case, ...it still wouldn't make it legal.
I'm sure if most of us were starving, and we knew stealing some food would save our lives or that of our loved ones, most of us would do it too, ...it still wouldn't make it legal.
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Genetics=Everything
You=much older than in that pic
fixed
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What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.
How does that differ from the actions of an instigator of an aggressive war?
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And yet our morality still probably trumps the morality of any other first world nation.
{ahem} Canada {cough}
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jag again legal/illegal is the same as civilized/uncivilized these are made up concepts of man they dont have any impact on the real world outside of man...LIFE AND DEATH are real and have real consequences, this isnt an ideological debate its a struggle to survive and protect you and your own.
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No its relevant. More to the point, this crap didn't just start under Bush or on 9/12. The net, 24 news and the information age have made it all seem like we went from this wonderful democracy to shaddy characters. We've always done whats in our best interest. Hell we used to assasinate people we didn't like, and knock over governments.
Used to ???
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jag again legal/illegal is the same as civilized/uncivilized these are made up concepts of man they dont have any impact on the real world outside of man...LIFE AND DEATH are real and have real consequences, this isnt an ideological debate its a struggle to survive and protect you and your own.
So the radical Islamic fundamentalist extremists and the Dick Cheney's of the world would like us to believe.
Such colossal epics serve to solidify their power. Kotb who only became radicalized after torture would've been proud
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So the radical Islamic fundamentalist extremists and the Dick Cheney's of the world would like us to believe.
Such colossal epics serve to solidify their power. Kotb who only became radicalized after torture would've been proud
jag your an atheist correct?
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jag your an atheist correct?
Absolutely 1,000,000 % incorrect!
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That may be the case, ...it still wouldn't make it legal.
I'm sure if most of us were starving, and we knew stealing some food would save our lives or that of our loved ones, most of us would do it too, ...it still wouldn't make it legal.
I'm willing to look the other way when the situation warrants it.
I think this was one of those times. In respect to it's legality, that's for the courts to decide.
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jag your an atheist correct?
Back in the day I banged an atheist so hard she believed in God.
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Back in the day I banged an atheist so hard she believed in God.
LOLZ
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LOLZ
Don't know if he answered but she definitely called him a few times.
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Back in the day I banged an atheist so hard she believed in God.
hahahahahahah i like it, i like it
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Don't know if he answered but she definitely called him a few times.
I didn't answer, I was busy fucking 72 virgins.