How bad can waterboarding really be?

[BigIronPete]

A crazy mofo like Jason Bourne would never talk.

[Fury]

This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND

we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...

Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.

This is my gripe. These ultra libs (not saying TU is one) couldn't give two flying fucks about these videos of Muslims beheading Americans, Japanese and foreigners from all other countries who were doing nothing but trying to help rebuild these countries or the mountains of other things they do yet they're flipping their shit over simulated drowning. It's pathetic. Can you imagine the uproar if we posted videos of a special forces soldier decapitating some Taliban scumbag out in Afghanistan?

I wonder if anyone here actually realizes that 99% of the American soldiers who were captured have ended up dead and their bodies ALWAYS show signs of severe torture. And we're supposed to feel bad about simulating drowning?

However, they should be focusing on the effectiveness of it. Not whether it constitutes torture or not. If it's not effective then they might as well stop doing it. That's how I feel, at least.

[Deicide]

Completely agree.  That's what I'm sayin.  Comparing us with them is just flat out wrong.  And I don't care about those animals either.   

Didn't Jesus offer his cheek? Not a good Christian I see...

[The ChemistV2]

What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.

Dude, it was an example showing the historical timeline..not an endorsement of the Spanish inquisition. Jeez.

[Deicide]

Dude, it was an example showing the historical timeline..not an endorsement of the Spanish inquisition. Jeez.

My point was that if it was used by the Spanish Inquisition that is hardly proof that it was effective for extracting information.

[tu_holmes]

This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND

we dont do have the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...

Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.

I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.

Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.

I FUCKING CARE.

I AM BETTER THAN THAT.

[Deicide]

I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.

Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.

I FUCKING CARE.

I AM BETTER THAN THAT.

I am sure we do and have done far worse than that. When we dump people off in countries so they can 'be disappeared', you can be sure bad stuff happens. Since WWII the morality of the USA has largely been an illusion in no small part due to the CIA.

[Dos Equis]

Didn't Jesus offer his cheek? Not a good Christian I see...

Red herring.    Another atheist who is obsessed with religion.  

[tonymctones]

I care... and it is a very slippery slope... Today it's waterboarding, tomorrow it's electric shock... It's a downward spiral.

Fuck the moral high ground to everyone else... I THINK IT'S FUCKING WRONG.

I FUCKING CARE.

I AM BETTER THAN THAT.

that i understand, the problem is EVERYTHING IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE and that arguement can be used everywhere if we start giving them trials, what next? civilian trials? civilian rights? maybe they should go to juvy? that arguement doesnt work...by that logic you shouldnt have any gun laws what so ever but you do for the greater good, this is the SAME THING

WE ARE STILL BETTER THEN THEM EVEN IF WE WERE TO KILL EVERY SINGLE CAPTIVE WE TOOK

when you start seeing other forms of interrogation techiniques that are harsher then SIMULATED drowning then worry for now just let it be, i agree with BF if it works it needs to be used if it doesnt the arguement is moot

[Deicide]

Red herring.    Another atheist who is obsessed with religion.  

Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?

[Fury]

I am sure we do and have done far worse than that. When we dump people off in countries so they can 'be disappeared', you can be sure bad stuff happens. Since WWII the morality of the USA has largely been an illusion in no small part due to the CIA.

And yet our morality still probably trumps the morality of any other first world nation.

[Deicide]

And yet our morality still probably trumps the morality of any other first world nation.

How so? New Zealand is a 1st world nation and has never done the things we have. No assassinations, genocides, invasions, coups, etc. It just doesn't follow.

[Fury]

How so? New Zealand is a 1st world nation and has never done the things we have. No assassinations, genocides, invasions, coups, etc. It just doesn't follow.

Prove it. I should have said "superpower" as I would have put a gun to my head and taken the bet that you would reference some obscure nation that is not a player on the main stage. I'd be interested in seeing just how "nice" the New Zealand govt. has been to the indigenous people that live there. My guess is that they haven't been angels.

Let's try looking at the track records of most European countries, Russia, China. 

I know, I know. You'll probably point out Luxembourg or something now. 

[tonymctones]

Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?

Christians dont claim to be morally superior to anybody, thats another atheist/liberal tactic...Also as christians we sin, i know this might be a novel concept to you but its true, we know we sin, God knows we sin, thats why Jesus gave his life for us...

[tu_holmes]

that i understand, the problem is EVERYTHING IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE and that arguement can be used everywhere if we start giving them trials, what next? civilian trials? civilian rights? maybe they should go to juvy? that arguement doesnt work...by that logic you shouldnt have any gun laws what so ever but you do for the greater good, this is the SAME THING

WE ARE STILL BETTER THEN THEM EVEN IF WE WERE TO KILL EVERY SINGLE CAPTIVE WE TOOK

when you start seeing other forms of interrogation techiniques that are harsher then SIMULATED drowning then worry for now just let it be, i agree with BF if it works it needs to be used if it doesnt the arguement is moot

I don't believe in gun laws either... Everyone should be able to carry as strapped as they want to. Period.

I'm not talking about the issue with trials or tribunals or any of that stuff... As far as I'm concerned, they are POWs... You can call them terrorists, but if this is a "War on Terror", then they are Prisoners of War.

Yes, we don't go around beheading people, but just because it's not on the same level of wrong, doesn't make it not wrong anyway.

[Deicide]

Christians dont claim to be morally superior to anybody, thats another atheist/liberal tactic...Also as christians we sin, i know this might be a novel concept to you but its true, we know we sin, God knows we sin, thats why Jesus gave his life for us...

Follow Jesus' example and be less bloodthirsty, or do you prefer Yahweh the Angry to him?

[timfogarty]

we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...

Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.

here is the problem:   there are about a billion arabs in the world.  there are maybe a few hundred thousand arabs who are trying to kill us.   of the few thousand people we held in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, some were innocent, caught up in this only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  some were adolescents.  if we are torturing innocent children, we have certain lost the moral high ground.

[Deicide]

Prove it. I should have said "superpower" as I would have put a gun to my head and taken the bet that you would reference some obscure nation that is not a player on the main stage. I'd be interested in seeing just how "nice" the New Zealand govt. has been to the indigenous people that live there. My guess is that they haven't been angels.

Let's try looking at the track records of most European countries, Russia, China. 

I know, I know. You'll probably point out Luxembourg or something now. 

NZ has tried to make amends for what happened to the Maori. Superpower...yes. Well, it begs the question as to what one needs to do in order to be a 'superpower'. I think I would prefer not to be, given the things that are required in order to be a superpower. The UK did bad things but after WWII and the defeat of the Nazis they realised they could not employ Nazi-like means to maintain their empire, so slowly and not too elegantl, they gave it up. We should do the same, not only for moral reasons but also because it is contributing to our bankruptcy and financial dissolution.

[tonymctones]

I don't believe in gun laws either... Everyone should be able to carry as strapped as they want to. Period.

I'm not talking about the issue with trials or tribunals or any of that stuff... As far as I'm concerned, they are POWs... You can call them terrorists, but if this is a "War on Terror", then they are Prisoners of War.

Yes, we don't go around beheading people, but just because it's not on the same level of wrong, doesn't make it not wrong anyway.

so you believe that citizens should be able to have fully automatic weapons, bazookas, rocket launchers?

I was using the legal isssue to show another slippery slope of being to lenient on these ppl...

Ok so you believe its wrong DONT FOR A SECOND SAY THAT IT CAUSES US TO LOSS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND again thats assinine and untrue if you believe that makes us equivilant to them then i dont even know what to say to you.

[tonymctones]

Follow Jesus' example and be less bloodthirsty, or do you prefer Yahweh the Angry to him?

you strive to follow Jesus' example, how do you know im not striving?

[tonymctones]

here is the problem:   there are about a billion arabs in the world.  there are maybe a few hundred thousand arabs who are trying to kill us.   of the few thousand people we held in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, some were innocent, caught up in this only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  some were adolescents.  if we are torturing innocent children, we have certain lost the moral high ground.

LOL omg so theoretically water boarding an innocent child and it is theortical since you have no proof that a child has been waterboarded and further more that a innocent child has been waterboarded is equivilant to using mental retards to suicide bomb innocent civilians?  AGAIN us waterboarding does not cause us to lose the moral high ground that is just about the most assisine assertion ive heard on here. Even if we decapitated every captive we took we would still be miles above those bastards...

[drkaje]

I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? 

Only one way to know; have it done to you.

[Deicide]

you strive to follow Jesus' example, how do you know im not striving?

I don't follow imaginary figures.

[Dos Equis]

Not a red herring, but you as a Christian who is allegedly morally superior to the rest of us should be held to a higher standard and I thought you are to seek to emulate Jesus. Need I cite the passage?

Another red herring/straw man.  I never said I was morally superior to anyone.    This has zero to do with the thread.    

And no, you don't need to cite a passage from a book you don't believe in, inspired by a being you don't believe exists.  What is it with atheists who can't stop talking about God??  lol . . .  

[Cap]

Okay....SEALs do drown proofing all the time in the first two phases of BUD/S and also deal with in SERE.

PJs deal with the same thing in their indoc, and then some.  Read BHD and Tom Wilkinson will talk about how the guys were either expected to make the underwater swim or pass out and then retest.

Go through SERE school and see the physical abuse dished out there.  I talked to a Recon buddy last week about SERE and he filled me in.  Cry me a river for the Hajis getting waterboarded.

It doesn't matter if you ask for the drownproofing/waterboarding/etc, it's the same shit.  Real men do it ask part of their training and the left wing can't seem to justify doing to extract useful intel but it's okay to break down and build up our elite soldiers.