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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Ganuvanx on June 06, 2009, 02:43:17 PM
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There seems to be a lot of Christian religion bashing by evolutionists these days. A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set beliefs that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or ultimate truth. Evolution fits the definition of religion in that evolutionists believe in an ultimate truth that we are constantly evolving to something better and we are therefore in a way our own gods. I came up with this diagram to help evolutionists understand they are actually practitioners of religion even though they don’t understand it. Evolutionists must agree that evolution according to their beliefs, doesn’t stop. I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion. This diagram is as close as I could figure out.
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I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion.
Very interesting question!
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There seems to be a lot of Christian religion bashing by evolutionists these days. A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set beliefs that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or ultimate truth. Evolution fits the definition of religion in that evolutionists believe in an ultimate truth that we are constantly evolving to something better and we are therefore in a way our own gods. I came up with this diagram to help evolutionists understand they are actually practitioners of religion even though they don’t understand it. Evolutionists must agree that evolution according to their beliefs, doesn’t stop. I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion. This diagram is as close as I could figure out.
Evolution has no direction as it is adapative in nature. Who knows? We do know that evolution has taken place and continues to do so. I don't practise any religion thank you.
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In 100,000 years we will have evolved to merge with machines.
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There seems to be a lot of Christian religion bashing by evolutionists these days. A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set beliefs that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or ultimate truth. Evolution fits the definition of religion in that evolutionists believe in an ultimate truth that we are constantly evolving to something better and we are therefore in a way our own gods. I came up with this diagram to help evolutionists understand they are actually practitioners of religion even though they don’t understand it. Evolutionists must agree that evolution according to their beliefs, doesn’t stop. I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion. This diagram is as close as I could figure out.
No evolution does not say that - evolution has NO pre-determined path - we can evolve (into something better) or devolve. Evolution simply dictates that those creatures which are best suited to survival will continue to thrive while natural selection will eliminate those that are unsuited. When elements of natural selection are taken out of the equation we lose those traits (ie. are ability to withstand snake bite is much less than other mammals because intellectually we learnt to avoid snakes).
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In 100,000 years we will have evolved to merge with machines.
OzmO are you being serious? If so, what do you envision regarding this?
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OzmO are you being serious? If so, what do you envision regarding this?
I tend 2 agree some what. Look around, we have pacemakers, artificial hearts, hearing aids, working on artificial eyes.
I think if we don't blow ourselves up first, we very well could see a lot more of these types of " mechanical evolutions "
if you will.
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OzmO are you being serious? If so, what do you envision regarding this?
I am being serious. "IF" evolution is what it is billed to be, in addition to what mitchyboy says, we are in a mechanical, electronic environment bathed in radio waves. At some point, thousands and thousands of years from now, we will evolve to merge with our machines.
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There seems to be a lot of Christian religion bashing by evolutionists these days. A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set beliefs that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or ultimate truth. Evolution fits the definition of religion in that evolutionists believe in an ultimate truth that we are constantly evolving to something better and we are therefore in a way our own gods. I came up with this diagram to help evolutionists understand they are actually practitioners of religion even though they don’t understand it. Evolutionists must agree that evolution according to their beliefs, doesn’t stop. I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion. This diagram is as close as I could figure out.
false there is not better or worse in terms of evolution only better or less suited for the enviroment. Like deicide said evolution has no path, something that you might consider a undesireable property might end up being whats best suited for the enviroment. Again evolution doesnt say that we are evolving towards a defined end it says whats best suited for the enviroment will have the best chance to pass on its genes.
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For those interested, check out Ray Kurzweil's singularity theory:
An analysis of the history of technology shows that technological change is exponential, contrary to the common-sense 'intuitive linear' view. So we won't experience 100 years of progress in the 21st century—it will be more like 20,000 years of progress (at today's rate). The 'returns,' such as chip speed and cost-effectiveness, also increase exponentially. There's even exponential growth in the rate of exponential growth. Within a few decades, machine intelligence will surpass human intelligence, leading to the Singularity—technological change so rapid and profound it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history. The implications include the merger of biological and nonbiological intelligence, immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of intelligence that expand outward in the universe at the speed of light.
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Computer technology 'doubles' every 18 months (according to Dr. Michio Kaku), and I believe him. Just look at laptops of today and compare it to about 2 yrs ago. Now a dual core processor is 'slow' compared to something like the Intel i7. Also, my cellphone from last year (Samsung Rant) is freaking obsolete compared to these new smartphones out.
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For those interested, check out Ray Kurzweil's singularity theory:
Some how Rays company Kurzweil instruments teeters on the edge of bankruptcy ::) go figure!
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Evolution is about reaching an equilibrium with the environment. If a species has no "need" to evolve and no pressures are on it from the environment then it doesn't change much. If there are a lot of pressures from the environment then it changes a lot and evolves a lot.
Examples: The crocodile not changing much over millions of years. Other species change a lot in a few thousand years.
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Evolution is about reaching an equilibrium with the environment. If a species has no "need" to evolve and no pressures are on it from the environment then it doesn't change much. If there are a lot of pressures from the environment then it changes a lot and evolves a lot.
Examples: The crocodile not changing much over millions of years. Other species change a lot in a few thousand years.
Yes adapation of species to environment does occur, but species dont change/evolve into another type of species to suit their environment LOL.
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Yes adapation of species to environment does occur, but species dont change/evolve into another type of species to suit their environment LOL.
They change as much as is needed, and then some. There is no limit to how much change can occur in a population. "Species" is just a term humans invented to discern types of organisms. It doesn't mean anything for the natural world, and definitely isn't some 'limit'.
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They change as much as is needed, and then some. There is no limit to how much change can occur in a population. "Species" is just a term humans invented to discern types of organisms. It doesn't mean anything for the natural world, and definitely isn't some 'limit'.
thats exactly right.
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thats exactly right.
Some people think that somehow adaptation stops all of a sudden right before a population becomes a new species. This doesn't make sense. There is no built in limit to how much change can occur, and EVEN IF there were, there is no reason why that built in limit couldn't be done away with by evolution. Evolution occurs on the most basic level of life, the genetic level, and the genetics determine everything including limitations. So essentially limits to how much change can occur in evolution can NOT exist in the long run since they could easily be altered by more mutations and natural selection.
The only limits that I can think of would be basic physics. Some things aren't possible for organic life. But then again, evolution always surprises. Some of the most fascinating traits have evolved in certain species to give them an advantage in living, hunting, breeding, etc.
Evolution NEVER stops, just slows down sometimes. Even humans are evolving, but we don't know what they are evolving into. Possible answers:
Humans are evolving to be immune to health problems associated with obesity.
Humans are evolving to be less physically endowed.
Various ailments both mental and physical spread through human gene pools due to technology allowing them to survive longer and breed more.
Humans, in general, are becoming inferior because their technology removes the need to have all sorts of attributes necessary to survive. Today, even the most genetically handicapped people still live long and breed.
This brings in new issues of Eugenics, which is another topic all together.
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Evolutionists must agree that evolution according to their beliefs, doesn’t stop. I would like these guys to explain to me what they think they are evolving into according to their religion. This diagram is as close as I could figure out.
Evolving into?
Why would there be an end of evolution?
Because that is in essence what you're suggesting.
And I'm not evolving into anything.
I'm me.
And whatever our ancestors will look like, or how they will evolve, I cannot say.
You can see small changes in mankind everywhere, adaptations.
From what I was told by a scienctist pygmees are short because that is an adaptation. Dutch people are tall - an adaptation.
Some ethinicities that have been living with cows have developed a tolerance to milk - others are lactose intolerant - like most black people.
Massai male negroes have average sized cocks measuring 10 inches. Because traditionally the Massais didn't wear any clothes and the cocks would apparently be used to attract women.
So there are differences already.
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Evolving into?
Why would there be an end of evolution?
Because that is in essence what you're suggesting.
And I'm not evolving into anything.
I'm me.
And whatever our ancestors will look like, or how they will evolve, I cannot say.
You can see small changes in mankind everywhere, adaptations.
From what I was told by a scienctist pygmees are short because that is an adaptation. Dutch people are tall - an adaptation.
Some ethinicities that have been living with cows have developed a tolerance to milk - others are lactose intolerant - like most black people.
Massai male negroes have average sized cocks measuring 10 inches. Because traditionally the Massais didn't wear any clothes and the cocks would apparently be used to attract women.
So there are differences already.
why do asians have small penises then?
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why do asians have small penises then?
I have no idea.
The scientist told me about the Massais.
Why the Japs are hung like they are - I wouldn't know.
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There seems to be a lot of Christian religion bashing by evolutionists these days.
firstly this post misses right off the mark by assuming that Christianity is the correct religion...you wont know till u die..its assuming that your parents being Christians...were in fact right...and ya know what they say about assumptions :-\
for all you know it could be Judaism or Islam or hell Hinduism
2 > asking people what they r evolving into is like asking a pupa to speculate what it'll turn into or what kinda colours will the, to be butterfly have...
you dont know if tomorrow earth will get hit by radiation from a massive supernova and all humans except those that can tolerate radiation (VERY dark skinned) will be the only survivours...hense evolution thru survival of the fittest..given the conditions provided
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The people suggesting we will merge with machines; do you think it will be a natural biological merging? If so, given my understanding of evolution - what exactly is the selection pressure? Remember, almost every human can procreate in this day and age, the least fit, the fat and the unsuccessful... from a natural selection standpoint they are all as successful in regards to passing genes on to the next generation. Un-educated undesirables even have a higher birthrate and therefore a monopoly on the human gene pool... so again I ask, where is the selection pressure to merge with machines?
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The people suggesting we will merge with machines; do you think it will be a natural biological merging? If so, given my understanding of evolution - what exactly is the selection pressure? Remember, almost every human can procreate in this day and age, the least fit, the fat and the unsuccessful... from a natural selection standpoint they are all as successful in regards to passing genes on to the next generation. Un-educated undesirables even have a higher birthrate and therefore a monopoly on the human gene pool... so again I ask, where is the selection pressure to merge with machines?
It won't be natural. Humans will merge themselves with machines gradually over time.
First prosthetic limbs.
Next brain implants to increase memory or communication or processing speed.
Next replacement organs.
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It won't be natural. Humans will merge themselves with machines gradually over time.
First prosthetic limbs.
Next brain implants to increase memory or communication or processing speed.
Next replacement organs.
so it's not biological evolution leading to speciation, it's the progression of technology.
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so it's not biological evolution leading to speciation, it's the progression of technology.
In humans...
In humans there won't really be a speciation but rather changes brought from technology.
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In humans...
In humans there won't really be a speciation but rather changes brought from technology.
It's not evolutionary at all then in the sense of specialisation and natural selective pressures. It's almost exclusively society and technological evolution.
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It is already starting. :)
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In humans...
In humans there won't really be a speciation but rather changes brought from technology.
It's not evolutionary at all then in the sense of specialisation and natural selective pressures. It's almost exclusively society and technological evolution.
So does this mean humans are the exception to the rule of evolution? In other words, out of all the evolutionary events that are occurring, which if I'm perceiving what evolution teaches accurately, it (evolution) is an ongoing process, eh? If so, according to these post, humans are the exception to the rule. We don't evolve, is this right? Humans can only make tech. advances/adaptions? Again, if so, why is the human family NOT subjected to the pressures of evolution?
CG/DEA_AGENT
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So does this mean humans are the exception to the rule of evolution? In other words, out of all the evolutionary events that are occurring, which if I'm perceiving what evolution teaches accurately, it (evolution) is an ongoing process, eh? If so, according to these post, humans are the exception to the rule. We don't evolve, is this right? Humans can only make tech. advances/adaptions? Again, if so, why is the human family NOT subjected to the pressures of evolution?
CG/DEA_AGENT
we are, that is not what they are saying. We have devised strategies to avoid sickness, predation etc... we dont need to evolve much as our envoironment puts little pressue on us. Our brains may become bigger etc.. something along those lines, but we recieve little physical stress. We dont need camoflauge to avoid predators, water conservation strategies. Hell myopia is rampant in our society which should eliminate some, but we invented glasses allowin those to flourish.
technology provides the greatest stress. Everything evolves
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we are, that is not what they are saying. We have devised strategies to avoid sickness, predation etc... we dont need to evolve much as our envoironment puts little pressue on us. Our brains may become bigger etc.. something along those lines, but we recieve little physical stress. We dont need camoflauge to avoid predators, water conservation strategies. Hell myopia is rampant in our society which should eliminate some, but we invented glasses allowin those to flourish.
Yes, but isn't this achieved thru our own thinking processes? I thought evolution occurred without thought process?
technology provides the greatest stress. Everything evolves
I'm not sure if we are talking micro or macro here. Again, I thought evolution teaches that no thought process is involved. Just asking, friend.
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Yes, but isn't this achieved thru our own thinking processes? I thought evolution occurred without thought process?
I'm not sure if we are talking micro or macro here. Again, I thought evolution teaches that no thought process is involved. Just asking, friend.
GC/DEA_AGENT
im wiped on xanax right now so forgive me but i dont understand your questions. because of the evolution of the prefrontal cortex we can effciently keep things neutral, and avoid many pressures other species do not have. Intellectually we will grow more the physically i assume. Increase in brain matter, more glial, astrocytes, less relying etc...
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im wiped on xanax right now so forgive me but i dont understand your questions. because of the evolution of the prefrontal cortex we can effciently keep things neutral, and avoid many pressures other species do not have. Intellectually we will grow more the physically i assume. Increase in brain matter, more glial, astrocytes, less relying etc...
NP. Let me throw another question at ya. Are the apes still evolving into humans? If not, why did evolution stop. What casued evolution in that case to stop apes from turning into humans.
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NP. Let me throw another question at ya. Are the apes still evolving into humans? If not, why did evolution stop. What casued evolution in that case to stop apes from turning into humans.
i think you should learn about evolution, this question comes up over and over and is somewhat silly.
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i think you should learn about evolution, this question comes up over and over and is somewhat silly.
Well, Necrosis that's why I'm asking the question. To learn. Am I entitled to make at least one mistake, as well? At this point, why can't someone explain this question? It should be easy for evolutionist to do so.
BTW, if I'm wrong, so be it. I can take it. At least show me my error. Isn't that what a reasonable person should do?
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Well, Necrosis that's why I'm asking the question. To learn. Am I entitled to make at least one mistake, as well? At this point, why can't someone explain this question? It should be easy for evolutionist to do so.
BTW, if I'm wrong, so be it. I can take it. At least show me my error. Isn't that what a reasonable person should do?
GC/DEA_AGENT
with all due respect, perhaps you should research the topic a little bit before partaking in an argument about it? I think it is reasonable to not be handed all knowledge on a platter, and spoon-fed to you :P
Evolution is a science, and demands the kind of attention and study as any other science.
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with all due respect, perhaps you should research the topic a little bit before partaking in an argument about it? I think it is reasonable to not be handed all knowledge on a platter, and spoon-fed to you :P
Evolution is a science, and demands the kind of attention and study as any other science.
I have studied. Never came across the answer to this.
BTW, how is this ALL knowledge about evolution? ???
GC/DEA_AGENT
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I have studied. Never came across the answer to this.
BTW, how is this ALL knowlegde about evoultion? ???
GC/DEA_AGENT
As polesmoker Necrosis already mentioned, you wouldn't be asking the question if you understood how evolution worked. But if you must demand an answer: We didn't evolve from monkeys. We belong to different evolutionary branches with a common ancestor. Is that good enough?
Regarding the second comment: patience my friend.
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As polesmoker Necrosis already mentioned, you wouldn't be asking the question if you understood how evolution worked. But if you must demand an answer: We didn't evolve from monkeys. We belong to different evolutionary branches with a common ancestor. Is that good enough?
Thank you! That wasn't so hard, now was it? ;D When did that (that is, monkey's NOT being our ancestors) change? What are these evolutionary branches?
Regarding the second comment: patience my friend.
I've got plenty of it, I'm ready! :)
Also, with abiogensis never happening, where does that leave evolution? Now, I'm just asking, so take it easy on me, k?
Another also, why isn't the human family evolving into some other species? What caused it to halt? We continue to die off without any hint of progressing into some higher being. Now, once again, take it easy on me, I'm just trying to learn here. :)
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Thank you! That wasn't so hard, now was it? ;D When did that (that is, monkey's NOT being our ancestors) change? What are these evolutionary branches?
I've got plenty of it, I'm ready! :)
Also, with abiogensis never happening, where does that leave evolution? Now, I'm just asking, so take it easy on me, k?
Another also, why isn't the human family evolving into some other species? What caused it to halt? We continue to die off without any hint of progressing into some higher being. Now, once again, take it easy on me, I'm just trying to learn here. :)
GC/DEA_AGENT
No problem. My friend, this info is available and is easily accessible. In fact, there is a wikipedia article dedicated to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution)
Likewise there's other sources: TV docu's, textbooks, etc that are easily available for those interested in learning about the subject.
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Another also, why isn't the human family evolving into some other species? What caused it to halt? We continue to die off without any hint of progressing into some higher being. Now, once again, take it easy on me, I'm just trying to learn here. :)
GC/DEA_AGENT
Nothing caused evolution to halt, it is an ongoing process that is too slow for us to observe in the short term; our lifespans are too long for that. Rapidly reproducing organisms like bacteria that are easily subjected to changing environments through human intervention can be observed for "evolutionary changes". An understanding of evolutionary processes is necessary in modern medicine because of the ability of bacteria to adapt to antibiotics- I'm sure you've heard of antibiotic resistant bacteria.
I'm not the best person to answer these questions; I only have a surface understanding of biology, let alone a concentration of it like evolutionary science. Necrosis and others are much more educated on the issue.
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Haider, here is my conclusion of my studies of evoultion vs creation from some years ago. And would like for you and Necroisis to analyize it, and let me know what's in error as well as what has changed in the study of evoultion. I really would like your input. No kidding! :)
Predictions of Predictions of Facts as Found in
Evolution Model Creation Model the Real World
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________________________ ________________________ ___________
Life evolved from Life comes only (1) Life comes only
nonlife by chance from previous life; from previous life;
chemical evolution originally created (2) no way to form
(spontaneous by an intelligent complex genetic code
generation) Creator by chance
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Fossils should show: Fossils should show: Fossils show:
(1) simple life (1) complex forms (1) sudden appearance
forms originating suddenly appearing of complex life in
gradually; in great variety; great variety;
(2) transitional (2) gaps separating (2) each new kind
forms linking major kinds; no separate from
previous ones linking forms previous kinds;no linking forms
________________________ ________________________ ___________
New kinds arising No new kinds No new kinds
gradually; gradually appearing; gradually appearing,
beginnings of no incomplete bones although many
incomplete bones or organs, but all varieties; no
and organs in parts completely incompletely formed
various transitional formed bones or organs
stages
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Mutations: net Mutations harmful to Small mutations
result beneficial; complex life; do harmful, large ones
generate new not result in lethal; never result
features anything new in anything new
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Origin of Civilization Civilization
civilization contemporaneous with appears with man;
gradual, arising out man; complex to any cave dwellers
of crude, brutish begin with were contemporary
beginnings with civilization
________________________ ________________________ ____________
Language evolved Language Language
from simple animal contemporaneous with contemporaneous with
sounds into complex man; ancient man; ancient ones
modern languages languages complex often more complex
and complete than modern
________________________ ________________________ ____________
Appearance of man Appearance of man Oldest written
millions of years about 6,000 years records date back
ago ago only about 5,000
years
________________________ ________________________ ____________
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Nothing caused evolution to halt, it is an ongoing process that is too slow for us to observe in the short term; our lifespans are too long for that.
Hey, thanks for taking the time out for me, I really do appreciate it, epsecially within a civil manner!
I understand your point. However, I thought according to evolutionist man is millions of years old. How long does it take?
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Rapidly reproducing organisms like bacteria that are easily subjected to changing environments through human intervention can be observed for "evolutionary changes". An understanding of evolutionary processes is necessary in modern medicine because of the ability of bacteria to adapt to antibiotics.
But they still end up bacteria, right? Or did the bacteria evolve into something else/kind?
DEA_AGENT
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Haider, here is my conclusion of my studies of evoultion vs creation from some years ago. And would like for you and Necroisis to analyize it, and let me know what's in error as well as what has changed in the study of evoultion. I really would like your input. No kidding! :)
Predictions of Predictions of Facts as Found in
Evolution Model Creation Model the Real World
--------------- --------------- -------------------
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Life evolved from Life comes only (1) Life comes only
nonlife by chance from previous life; from previous life;
chemical evolution originally created (2) no way to form
(spontaneous by an intelligent complex genetic code
generation) Creator by chance
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Fossils should show: Fossils should show: Fossils show:
(1) simple life (1) complex forms (1) sudden appearance
forms originating suddenly appearing of complex life in
gradually; in great variety; great variety;
(2) transitional (2) gaps separating (2) each new kind
forms linking major kinds; no separate from
previous ones linking forms previous kinds;no linking forms
________________________ ________________________ ___________
New kinds arising No new kinds No new kinds
gradually; gradually appearing; gradually appearing,
beginnings of no incomplete bones although many
incomplete bones or organs, but all varieties; no
and organs in parts completely incompletely formed
various transitional formed bones or organs
stages
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Mutations: net Mutations harmful to Small mutations
result beneficial; complex life; do harmful, large ones
generate new not result in lethal; never result
features anything new in anything new
________________________ ________________________ ___________
Origin of Civilization Civilization
civilization contemporaneous with appears with man;
gradual, arising out man; complex to any cave dwellers
of crude, brutish begin with were contemporary
beginnings with civilization
________________________ ________________________ ____________
Language evolved Language Language
from simple animal contemporaneous with contemporaneous with
sounds into complex man; ancient man; ancient ones
modern languages languages complex often more complex
and complete than modern
________________________ ________________________ ____________
Appearance of man Appearance of man Oldest written
millions of years about 6,000 years records date back
ago ago only about 5,000
years
________________________ ________________________ ____________
Essentially all of your "in the real world" is wrong. The last one is right, but it doesn't disagree with Evolution since humans didn't always have writing, and especially not non-homo sapiens.
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Evolution is a process of changing to adapt to surroundings...
you mistakingly assume that there is an end goal...the process in itself dictates that there is no end goal....
we aren't evolving into a more perfect godlike state....we r merely adapting to a changing environment...whatever that change may be
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Essentially all of your "in the real world" is wrong. The last one is right, but it doesn't disagree with Evolution since humans didn't always have writing, and especially not non-homo sapiens.
pretty much all his predictions of the creation model make no sense, why does the creation model predict only harmful mutations? what predictions can you make about somethign you can know nothing about. Also, why would the prediction life comes from life be correct? wouldn't the creator keep creating, why does he create the first but leave propogation to evolution? Seems like the opposite would be true.
also, where does this creator create, who is the creator, where does he live, how does he create etc... you cannot make predictions without testable hypothesis. Mere conjecture in that chart.