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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Fury on August 18, 2009, 08:30:50 AM
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(CNN) -- The recent closure of 32 privately owned radio stations and a proposed law to punish "media crimes" are signs that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is moving to quash criticism of his government, according to a recent U.S. intelligence report.
Chavez's government is "moving forcefully to silence critics," said the unclassified U.S. analysis prepared by the Open Source Center, a U.S. government office that translates and analyzes reports from foreign news organizations.
The relationship between privately owned media in Venezuela and the leftist Chavez have never been rosy. Chavez has accused private television stations of supporting his brief ouster in 2002, and the president was a driving force behind denying a license renewal in 2007 to one broadcaster he said cooperated with the opposition.
But the decisions this month by the Chavez government to close 32 radio stations and two television broadcasters and to support legislation that would create prison sentences for people who commit "media crimes" have created a new level of scrutiny from outside Venezuela.
"The media crimes bill is the most blatant example of the government's steady encroachment on media freedom in an effort to establish a media monopoly and stifle freedom of expression," said the unclassified intelligence report, dated August 3.
The Venezuelan government denies that the media crimes law and the closure of the radio stations are related and maintains that each initiative was grounded in Venezuelan law.
"As usual, much disinformation has shaped the debate surrounding these developments," the Venezuelan Embassy said in a fact sheet about the developments.
At the same time Chavez was extolling these two measures, supporters of his government attacked the Globovision television studio, one of few remaining networks that gives a voice to the opposition.
In the August 3 attack, more than 30 members of a pro-government party threw tear gas at the studio and injured three people.
The leader of the attack, ardent Chavez supporter Lina Ron, was arrested. Chavez condemned the incident, but last week, people alleged to be among his supporters attacked a group of journalists who were passing out leaflets in the street.
The leaflets that journalists from the private media conglomerate Cadena Capriles were passing out criticized an education bill that they said would hamper press freedom.
According to local news reports, a group of assailants threw the journalists to the ground and kicked them, sending 12 to the hospital.
"The harassment (of journalists) is a permanent condition," Carlos Lauria, Americas program coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists, told CNN.
The shuttering of the radio and television stations and media crimes law are part of a larger strategy that Chavez has followed since he was briefly deposed in a coup in 2002, he said.
Chavez's goal can be described as a three-point strategy, Lauria said: to control the flow of information, stop critical reports and disseminate pro-government propaganda.
Much of the pro-government propaganda comes through Chavez's use of state-owned media outlets, critics say.
The media crimes law in particular was an escalation from previous measures aimed at the press, Lauria said.
Chavez has used the media as a scapegoat, the intelligence analysis said, but "he may be willing to give this up in order to clamp down on the negative news reporting and commentary, which have been hammering away at the country's economic problems and Chavez's increasing authoritarianism for the past year."
The media crimes law met resistance from the National Assembly and was tabled for the time being because of opposition to it.
Chavez's government defended the draft of the bill, as well as the recent closure of the broadcasters, as being within the law.
The radio stations that were ordered off the air were all violating the law, either by operating with expired broadcasting concessions, failure to renew such licenses or illegally holding a concession, the Venezuelan government's fact sheet said.
According to the document, "neither the regularization of the situation of radio and television (stations) that have been operating outside the law in Venezuela, nor the development of a law to clearly regulate subsequent imposition of liabilities in the case of serious media abuses are measures that limit freedom of speech in Venezuela."
Chavez's intervention with the press is also worrisome because of Chavez's influence over other leaders in the region, including the leaders of Ecuador, Bolivia and Nicaragua, CNN was told by Robert Rivard, chairman of the Inter-American Press Association's Committee on Freedom of the Press and Information.
"Freedom of expression in general, for everyone, is under attack in these countries," Rivard said. "They all have a deep, abiding distrust of journalists and freedom of the press."
Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa was only days behind Chavez in seeking to close radio stations for technical infractions, Rivard said.
Chavez "has clearly been alienated by a free press and has seen it as a threat and a target," he said.
Not only journalism advocacy groups have been vocal against Chavez.
The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization this month released a statement expressing concern about the closure of the radio stations.
"There can be no freedom of expression, or even democracy, in the absence of media pluralism," UNESCO Secretary-General Koichiro Matsuura said in a statement.
The divisions over the media measures run deep, both locally and internationally, but on trip this week to Ecuador, Chavez continued to pitch his plans to other leaders. He has faced strong opposition before, and he has weathered it.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/08/18/venezuela.radio/index.html
When in doubt, don't fix things, fix the people. All hail President Dictator Hugo Chavez.
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Viva la Hugo Chavez!!!!!!! ;D
CNN? Really... you haven't been following this have you...
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Viva la Hugo Chavez!!!!!!! ;D
CNN? Really... you haven't been following this have you...
Ahh yes, attack the source and try to deflect away from the topic. Geez, I mean, because it's not all over the internet. ::)
The blabberings of an unemployed retard that spends 14 hours a day on Getbig get more amusing by the day.
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Ahh yes, attack the source and try to deflect away from the topic. Geez, I mean, because it's not all over the internet. ::)
The blabberings of an unemployed retard that spends 14 hours a day on Getbig get more amusing by the day.
point went over your head... because you're jonny come lately to the topic obviously...
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point went over your head... because you're jonny come lately to the topic obviously...
Again, I'm not one to go searching the internet for stories about the glorious leader of the failed country that is Venezuela. Sorry if I don't rub one out on a picture of his face before bed every night like some other posters here do.
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Again, I'm not one to go searching the internet for stories about the glorious leader of the failed country that is Venezuela. Sorry if I don't rub one out on a picture of his face before bed every night like some other posters here do.
how special...
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how special...
I don't know if I would consider you jerking off to a picture of Hugo before bed every night "special".
But yes, you may indeed be "special". ;)
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I don't know if I would consider you jerking off to a picture of Hugo before bed every night "special".
But yes, you may indeed be "special". ;)
you have some sick fucking fantasies... Maybe you can get Ron to start a board for sick fucks and get yourself modded where you and all your gimmicks can have sick fun or whatever it is you do.
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Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people. :(
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Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people. :(
care to list the poverty rates for Venezuela, for each year and who was in power for that year for say the last 20 years? Go for it... Give us a chart to gaze upon... :)
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care to list the poverty rates for Venezuela, for each year and who was in power for that year for say the last 20 years? Go for it... Give us a chart to gaze upon... :)
Doesn't change anything. It's still the richest Latin American country with the poorest people.
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lolololol ;)
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lolololol ;)
The poor aren't laughing.
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The poor aren't laughing.
come on, show us a chart so we can see what years there were more of them not laughing ;)
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Classic D'oh!
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come on, show us a chart so we can see what years there were more of them not laughing ;)
You know I've always said that there has always been corruption and poverty in Venezuela, even before Chavez. But Chavez was elected by the poor supposedly to fix this. What has he done?
Here is your chart. The barrel of oil has never been higher and Venezuela has never made as much money as it has under Chavez. Where is all that money, Hugo?
Why are the poor still poor? Why has he given so much money and free oil to other countries, even free energy to some of the poor in the US, instead of helping his own?
Can you answer that, Hugo?
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Homer_D%27oh.png)
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Homer_D%27oh.png)
I'll be stealing this one. :)
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Classic D'oh!
Do you know much about what goes on in Venezuela? I have a friend that lives down there and she is so frustrated with Hugo.
Limits on credit card purchases.
Limits on online spending.
Limits on currency exchange.
etc
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Hugo has alot of internal issues, thats why he hoots and hollars about the US boggie man and we ignore him. He's building a military based on no crediable threat. The Middle Class has woken up to his brand of leftist bullshit. He and his buddy Evo...both epic failures.
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Hugo has alot of internal issues, thats why he hoots and hollars about the US boggie man and we ignore him. He's building a military based on no crediable threat. The Middle Class has woken up to his brand of leftist bullshit. He and his buddy Evo...both epic failures.
Exactly! That's a typical pattern among corrupt dictators. Castro loves the US embargo, because it gives him someone to blame for his own failures as a leader.
Middle Eastern dictators do the same with Israel. They blame Israel for all their troubles to keep the population from getting fed up with their failures as leaders, rising up and overthrowing them.
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Do you know much about what goes on in Venezuela? I have a friend that lives down there
is she hot?
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You know I've always said that there has always been corruption and poverty in Venezuela, even before Chavez. But Chavez was elected by the poor supposedly to fix this. What has he done?
Here is your chart. The barrel of oil has never been higher and Venezuela has never made as much money as it has under Chavez. Where is all that money, Hugo?
Why are the poor still poor? Why has he given so much money and free oil to other countries, even free energy to some of the poor in the US, instead of helping his own?
Can you answer that, Hugo?
(http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif)
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
OWNED!
Notice how that twat Hugo slunk off with his tail tucked in his vagina after that was posted.
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is she hot?
You have no idea dude. She came up here on a school visa. I was she hadn't left
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I didn't slink off jackass. I went to sleep. So sorry I couldn't make it a 36 hour posting marathon for your stupid retarded ass ::)
What was posted. all I see is a great big no hotlinking pic loco. I hope it was the poverty rates during your psycho rightwing years.
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I didn't slink off jackass. I went to sleep. So sorry I couldn't make it a 36 hour posting marathon for your stupid retarded ass ::)
What was posted. all I see is a great big no hotlinking pic loco. I hope it was the poverty rates during your psycho rightwing years.
I posted the chart and a link. If you can't see the chart, you could have clicked the link. So can you answer my questions or not?
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I posted the chart and a link. If you can't see the chart, you could have clicked the link. So can you answer my questions or not?
yea I clicked the link, what chart are you wanting me to look at? what's your major point? Looked like you were trying to make a point about poverty which a challenged you on. Are you addressing that or what? Don't you know how to copy and post a pic here?
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:-*
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Venezuela has seen a remarkable reduction in poverty since the first quarter of 2003. In the ensuing four years, from 2003 to 2007, the poverty rate was cut in half, from 54 percent of households to 27.5 percent. (See Table 1). This is measured from the first half of 2003 to the first half of 2007. As can be seen in the table, the poverty rate rose very slightly by one percentage point in the second half of 2007, most likely due to rising food prices. Extreme poverty fell even more, by 70 percent – from 25.1 percent of households to 7.6 percent.
cont... http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/revista/articles/view/1100
"Most of the controversy over social and economic progress under the Chavez administration is simply a result of misinformation, political prejudice, an overwhelming reliance on opposition sources, and an overall political and media climate of hostility toward a government that finds itself in conflict with Washington."--HOW ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND WHY I LAUGHED AT THE IDEA OF LISTENING TO CNN. I'VE READ TONS OF CRAP FROM CNN NOT REMOTELY BASED IN REALITY ON THE ISSUE.
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Venezuela has seen a remarkable reduction in poverty since the first quarter of 2003. In the ensuing four years, from 2003 to 2007, the poverty rate was cut in half, from 54 percent of households to 27.5 percent. (See Table 1). This is measured from the first half of 2003 to the first half of 2007. As can be seen in the table, the poverty rate rose very slightly by one percentage point in the second half of 2007, most likely due to rising food prices. Extreme poverty fell even more, by 70 percent – from 25.1 percent of households to 7.6 percent.
cont... http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/revista/articles/view/1100
"Most of the controversy over social and economic progress under the Chavez administration is simply a result of misinformation, political prejudice, an overwhelming reliance on opposition sources, and an overall political and media climate of hostility toward a government that finds itself in conflict with Washington."--HOW ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND WHY I LAUGHED AT THE IDEA OF LISTENING TO CNN. I'VE READ TONS OF CRAP FROM CNN NOT REMOTELY BASED IN REALITY ON THE ISSUE.
Hugo, with all the manipulation that goes on down there, you don't think it's possible they are manipulating poverty numbers?
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:-*
Hugo,
Where did you get this table? Will you please provide a link?
Provided the numbers in this table are accurate, they show more of a roller coaster, probably due to rising and falling prices of oil, than a constant reduction in poverty.
And if poverty has significantly decreased, why has crime increased so much? Can you explain that Hugo?
These poverty figures have not fallen in proportion to the country's vast petroleum revenues in the last few Chavez years.
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Venezuela has seen a remarkable reduction in poverty since the first quarter of 2003. In the ensuing four years, from 2003 to 2007, the poverty rate was cut in half, from 54 percent of households to 27.5 percent. (See Table 1). This is measured from the first half of 2003 to the first half of 2007. As can be seen in the table, the poverty rate rose very slightly by one percentage point in the second half of 2007, most likely due to rising food prices. Extreme poverty fell even more, by 70 percent – from 25.1 percent of households to 7.6 percent.
cont... http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/revista/articles/view/1100
"Most of the controversy over social and economic progress under the Chavez administration is simply a result of misinformation, political prejudice, an overwhelming reliance on opposition sources, and an overall political and media climate of hostility toward a government that finds itself in conflict with Washington."--HOW ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND WHY I LAUGHED AT THE IDEA OF LISTENING TO CNN. I'VE READ TONS OF CRAP FROM CNN NOT REMOTELY BASED IN REALITY ON THE ISSUE.
Your post mentions 2007, but 2007 is not in your table.
From your link:
"It may turn out that some of the official data that we are using today will be revised or replaced by better data, as happens in many countries"
Hugo,
The Venezuelan government's reported poverty figures have not fallen in proportion to the country's vast petroleum revenues in the last few years.
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yea I clicked the link, what chart are you wanting me to look at? what's your major point? Looked like you were trying to make a point about poverty which a challenged you on. Are you addressing that or what? Don't you know how to copy and post a pic here?
I made my point about poverty very clear, but you are playing dumb. I posted the chart, and I posted a link to the page that has the chart at the top.
In the entire history of Venezuela, no elected president has ever had as much power, authority and money as Chavez has. What's his excuse? What is stopping him from keeping his promises to the poor? Why are the poor still poor?
Even your alleged decrease in poverty, even if accurate, does not fall in proportion to the country's vast petroleum revenues it has enjoyed under Chavez. Can you explain that, Hugo?
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did you read the harvard link. It does a good job at addressing your points.
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did you read the harvard link. It does a good job at addressing your points.
Yes, I read it. No, it does not address my points.
Way to avoid my posts and questions! ::)
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epic reading skills....
from the article, which does address what you're talking about.
Rodriguez asserts that this halving of the household poverty rate in four years is not very good:
“The real question is thus not whether poverty has fallen but whether the Chávez government has been particularly effective at converting this period of economic growth into poverty reduction. One way to evaluate this is by calculating the reduction in poverty for every percentage point increase in per capita income -- in economists' lingo, the income elasticity of poverty reduction. This calculation shows an average reduction of one percentage point in poverty for every percentage point in per capita GDP growth during this recovery, a ratio that compares unfavorably with those of many other developing countries, for which studies tend to put the figure at around two percentage points.”
This implies that other countries have had twice as much poverty reduction per unit of economic growth as Venezuela. This is not true, and Rodriguez (2008b) subsequently acknowledged this, listing Venezuela's income elasticity of poverty reduction at 1.67, which is closer to two than one. But an elasticity of two is not the relevant comparison. Table 2 shows country and regional data from the World Bank for thirty-four growth spells of more than forty percent in per capita GDP, over the last two decades. As can be seen from the table, there are only three countries with a better income elasticity of poverty reduction than Venezuela.
And even this comparison understates Venezuela’s success. The World Bank data is for a $2 per day (Purchasing Power Parity dollars) poverty line, whereas Venezuela's poverty line is about 50 percent higher than this. The income elasticity of poverty reduction is much less elastic – that is, there is much less poverty reduction for a given amount of growth -- for higher poverty lines. (Also, the three countries that are above Venezuela – Poland, Latvia, and Chile – have very low levels of poverty by the end of the period, measured at $2 per day; countries with very low levels of absolute poverty tend to have much higher income elasticities of poverty reduction.) And as noted above, we are here only looking at cash income, ignoring gains for the poor in health care and education.
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The bigger point, which hasn't been raised, is what to do when oil revenue keep declining because the govt. is using the profits for social programs and not reinvesting into the oil sector?
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The bigger point, which hasn't been raised, is what to do when oil revenue keep declining because the govt. is using the profits for social programs and not reinvesting into the oil sector?
that's not a bigger point.
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epic reading skills....
from the article, which does address what you're talking about.
Rodriguez asserts that this halving of the household poverty rate in four years is not very good:
“The real question is thus not whether poverty has fallen but whether the Chávez government has been particularly effective at converting this period of economic growth into poverty reduction. One way to evaluate this is by calculating the reduction in poverty for every percentage point increase in per capita income -- in economists' lingo, the income elasticity of poverty reduction. This calculation shows an average reduction of one percentage point in poverty for every percentage point in per capita GDP growth during this recovery, a ratio that compares unfavorably with those of many other developing countries, for which studies tend to put the figure at around two percentage points.”
This implies that other countries have had twice as much poverty reduction per unit of economic growth as Venezuela. This is not true, and Rodriguez (2008b) subsequently acknowledged this, listing Venezuela's income elasticity of poverty reduction at 1.67, which is closer to two than one. But an elasticity of two is not the relevant comparison. Table 2 shows country and regional data from the World Bank for thirty-four growth spells of more than forty percent in per capita GDP, over the last two decades. As can be seen from the table, there are only three countries with a better income elasticity of poverty reduction than Venezuela.
And even this comparison understates Venezuela’s success. The World Bank data is for a $2 per day (Purchasing Power Parity dollars) poverty line, whereas Venezuela's poverty line is about 50 percent higher than this. The income elasticity of poverty reduction is much less elastic – that is, there is much less poverty reduction for a given amount of growth -- for higher poverty lines. (Also, the three countries that are above Venezuela – Poland, Latvia, and Chile – have very low levels of poverty by the end of the period, measured at $2 per day; countries with very low levels of absolute poverty tend to have much higher income elasticities of poverty reduction.) And as noted above, we are here only looking at cash income, ignoring gains for the poor in health care and education.
There is no "Table 2" to look at.
I read that. How does that address my posts and questions to you? Chavez has given money and oil away to other countries, even free energy to some of the poor in the US. No wonder the poor in Venezuela are still poor. And yes, the poverty numbers you and your article bring up are manipulated and inaccurate. Here's how Chavez comes up with those numbers:
Critics slam Venezuelan oil windfall spending
`Missions' won't have a lasting effect, they say
By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan, Globe Staff | August 13, 2006
CARACAS -- With oil prices at record levels, President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela has become the world's richest petro-socialist , and has vowed to spend that bounty on the poor.
With the national oil company projecting worldwide revenues of $85 billion this year, Chávez has plenty to spend; Venezuela has doubled the oil money in government coffers since 2004. But controversy has erupted over how wisely that money is being spent.
The government says the oil bonanza is transforming the lives of the poor. But critics, including senior economic officials who have broken ranks with Chávez, say the money is being frittered on short-term programs that boost Chavez's popularity, rather than being invested in long-term growth. Even planners loyal to Chávez worry that without strict oversight, a good portion of the windfall could be lost to corruption, and that not enough is being saved for the rainy day when oil prices fall.
Two years after oil prices began their dramatic climb and the government started plowing newfound billions into antipoverty programs, Celina Meza and her neighbors still hawk cheap snacks for small change and live in shanties clinging to a hillside in La Vega, one of the city's poorest barrios. But Meza, 68, said without hesitation that she is better off thanks to Chavez's policies and the oil boom that pays for them.
She receives a stipend of about $100 a month for attending Mission Robinson, an adult literacy program started under Chávez that provides financial incentives to the neediest students. Her husband's social security payment has risen with wage and pension hikes mandated by Chávez and paid for with abundant state funds. And the government has used the oil windfall to open subsidized markets in poor neighborhoods that sell staple foods up to 40 percent cheaper than elsewhere.
Meza's story is typical of many of Venezuela's poorest citizens: Despite the oil boom, she has been unable to find a job and cannot pay for health, education, or decent housing. Yet she is living better due to subsidies that have boosted her household income, decreased her food costs, and given her family access to free schooling and basic medical care.
``There are many needy people still. But at least there's hope," said Sergio Contreras, 34, a volunteer who teaches Meza and 10 other adults to read . They learn in a shabby plywood shack in the sprawling slum not far from downtown Caracas.
Other Chávez-inspired ``missions" offer vocational training, high school equivalent diplomas, distance-learning university degrees via Internet or other off-site methods , aid to needy mothers, soup kitchens, and free eye operations.
A review of government accounts shows the immense scale of the oil money in play for such initiatives.
The state-owned oil company, PDVSA, will pay the government an estimated $30 billion in taxes and royalties this year, nearly $19 billion of which will go to social spending, said Rodrigo Cabezas, president of the National Assembly's finance commission. PDVSA has also set aside $4.5 billion this year for its antipoverty projects.
On top of that, PDVSA is depositing about $100 million a week into a discretionary presidential spending fund that is outside the budget. Last year, Chávez created the so-called Fund for National Development, which -- in addition to the $5.5 billion it will accumulate from PDVSA's weekly deposits -- has drawn $10.2 billion from the Central Bank's reserves, and will draw billions more at year's end. Seventy percent of that money has been earmarked for infrastructure projects, and 25 percent for social spending, Cabezas said.
All told, higher gas prices and steeper royalties have yielded a whopping $50 billion in oil money available for public spending this year.
Critics say there is no oversight to control how the windfall is spent, or evaluate the efficiency of the beneficiary programs. The Ministry of Finance recently announced that Russian machine guns would be purchased out of the Fund for National Development.
``The government didn't establish rules for the use or necessary supervision, control, and auditing of this fund," said Domingo Maza Zavala, a state-appointed central bank director.
As for ``missions," which are the beneficiary of most of Chávez's social spending, ``I have a personal conviction that they are a good thing . . . but there's no method of objective evaluation of what the missions have achieved," he added.
Another troubling aspect of the presidential fund is that its main funding mechanism -- taking ``excess" foreign reserves from the Central Bank -- could lead to inflation, devaluation, or currency instability.
The Bank's foreign reserves are monies that effectively have been spent -- when PDVSA converted its US dollar oil export earnings into local currency, complained economist Orlando Ochoa, a former adviser to the finance commission.
An earlier Chávez creation, the Fund for Economic and Social Development of the Country, amassed $4 billion in oil money in 2004 and 2005, but government and bank officials interviewed were unable to say how much of that has been spent or on what programs.
With so much oil money sloshing around, observers also wonder how efficiently public contracts are being allocated. Former Army Captain Eliécer Otaiza, a Chávez loyalist appointed to investigate corruption, recently told a government commission that most contracts were awarded without a transparent bid process.
José Rojas, Chávez's former minister of finance and former vice president of PDVSA, said he was ``shocked and disappointed" about the ``irresponsible" way oil profits are being handled.
The government should be redistributing wealth through tax policy, while using oil money to ``create real growth via better productivity and higher employment. . . . If you don't do that, you're just spending money," he argued.
Rojas complained that despite feel-good programs, per capita income has declined by 4 percent since Chávez took office, according to Central Bank figures. ``I said poverty was rising and I got fired for telling [Chávez] the truth," he said.
Temir Porras, head of Mission Sucre, a program to expand higher education through distance learning, new campuses, and open admission, countered that with 7 to 9 percent projections for GDP growth this year, there's no reason to fear money is being squandered. Investments in education, health, and infrastructure will have a lasting effect on standard of living, he said.
Skeptics say Chávez's antipoverty programs are not sustainable solutions to lift people into the middle class, but rather paternalistic hand-holding that will vanish when the oil money is gone.
Both the government and opposition say the other side is manipulating statistics, making it hard to evaluate how much Chávez's oil-funded programs have helped the poor.
Elias Eljuri, president of the National Statistics Institute, said unemployment has dropped from 16.6 percent when Chávez took office in 1999 to 10.2 percent today. But critics assail the state for defining informal workers, such as street vendors, as employed, and excluding adults who are studying in missions from unemployment numbers.
Last year, Eljuri released figures showing poverty had risen more than 10 points under Chávez, to 53 percent in 2004. But after a stinging critique by the president, who called for a measure of how missions were improving standard of living, the institute created a ``social well-being" index. By year's end, it said poverty -- defined as people who can't afford basic food and services -- had fallen to 40 percent.
Edmond Saade, president of Datos Information Resources, a private Venezuelan research firm, said his surveys show incomes of the poorest Venezuelans have risen because of subsidies and grants, at the same time that the percentage of people in the worst living conditions has grown.
``The poor of Venezuela are living much better lately and have increased their purchasing power . . . [but] without being able to improve their housing, education level, and social mobility," he said. ``Rather than help [the poor] become stakeholders in the economic system, what [the government has] done is distribute as much oil wealth as possible in missions and social programs."
Yet not even Chávez supporters say all the social programs are working as they should. There are complaints that public housing hasn't materialized, and that Cuban doctors assigned to poor barrios aren't doing their jobs.
Maribel Cedillo, 36, a supervisor of Mission Robinson in La Vega, summed up the mood of many here: ``There are so many problems in the missions in all the barrios," she sighed. ``But we keep quiet because we want Chávez to stay in power. As long as he's there, we believe things can get better."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/08/13/critics_slam_venezuelan_oil_windfall_spending/
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I'm sure you can dig up more than that seeing the obvious corporate owned media outlets strong bias against Hugo. I can go find hundreds of similar propaganda articles. Loco, you're ignoring me more than I you. That article clearly addresses your point, what is your answer to that, just to say no it doesn't lolololol....
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another point, you bitch that the poverty hasn't come down relative to Venezuela's income. It's not good enough for you that anyway you look at the data, it has come down significantly. Only way it doesn't look good is because the opposition loves to take figures from the period effected by the oil strike. Even the world bank's data places reductions in poverty under Chavez only second to Argentina in South America. Depends on the data sources and years looked at, but however you dice it, it's a significant decrease. Now, the way I see it, it's a bloody fucking miracle he pulled that off considering the power of the opposition fighting to prevent any success by Chavez. A better question would really be to ask, what would be the state of poverty today without such a strong opposition seeking to undermine any success at every turn? Yea, I guess we won't know the answer to that question. That's something that's on your shoulders, not mine. something to think about for anyone with any real morality which is hard if not impossible to find among the opposition. One thing is for sure, when the opposition was in power, they sure didn't give a rats ass about those people and you know it. They don't have a lot of high ground to bitch from then do they!!! All that money would have been pure profit and the poor would still be megaSOL...
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Hardly a bastion of American Globalization Amnesty is concerned about the media.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/venezuela-globovisi%C3%B3n-attack-must-be-urgently-investigated-and-journalis
Venezuela: Globovisión attack must be urgently investigated and journalists protected
4 August 2009
Amnesty International today expressed grave concern at attacks against staff at Globovisión television station on Monday and called on the Venezuelan authorities to urgently initiate a full and impartial investigation to ensure those responsible are brought to justice.
According to reports, a group of armed individuals entered Globovisión’s main office on Monday afternoon, threw tear gas bombs and attacked staff and security guards. The attackers identified themselves as government supporters.
“Attacks against freedom of expression are a serious long standing concern in Venezuela,” said Susan Lee, Americas Director at Amnesty International. “President Chavez must guarantee that the right of the media to exercise its legitimate activity is respected, even when that includes criticism of the government.”
In a separate development, Venezuela’s Attorney General has presented a draft law that will make it a criminal offense to “disseminate through the media ‘false’ news that ‘harms the interest of the state’ and to ‘mislead or distort news’ … if this affects social peace, national security, public order, mental health or public morale." Anyone convicted under this law could face a prison sentence of up to four years.
Amnesty International is seriously concerned that the law, if enacted, will impose unacceptable restrictions on freedom of expression in Venezuela.
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you're so way off on amnesty. i don't trust them on this either.
Assessment by a former AI-USA board member
Prof. Francis A. Boyle (Professor of International Law, Univ. of Illinois, Champaign) from an interview with Dennis Bernstein:
"Amnesty International is primarily motivated not by human rights but by publicity. Second comes money. Third comes getting more members. Fourth, internal turf battles. And then finally, human rights, genuine human rights concerns. To be sure, if you are dealing with a human rights situation in a country that is at odds with the United States or Britain, it gets an awful lot of attention, resources, man and womanpower, publicity, you name it, they can throw whatever they want at that. But if it's dealing with violations of human rights by the United States, Britain, Israel, then it's like pulling teeth to get them to really do something on the situation. They might, very reluctantly and after an enormous amount of internal fightings and battles and pressures, you name it. But you know, it's not like the official enemies list."
Group Manipulation
Several AI chapters connected with universities in the U.S. have been taken over by groups with their own agenda. Their interest is to block criticism of certain countries, and to create a false impression that AI favors their position. There have been instances where manipulators sent "news releases" using AI letterhead (of the local group) to push their agenda. On Oct. 2002, AI-London stated that it is not their business to censor these groups (statement by Donatella Rovera when she was asked about this).
hmmm interesting connections!
Business Ethics?
In 1991, AI set up a Amnesty Business Group. It was meant to monitor human rights observance by corporations. However, the curious thing is that it chose Sir Geoffrey Chandler to head this unit. NB: Chandler was a Shell company director, and the head of the Sustainability Council. The second curious aspect of this AI unit is the issuance of a report about a controversial oil pipeline. It is quoted as follows on its website: "Launch of Human Rights on the Line Report into the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline project and the Host Government Agreement between BP and the Turkish Government." Note that this pipeline was beset by controversy because BP overlooked the rights and interests of all the people in the path of the pipeline.
more: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Amnesty_International
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The thing is I don't don't trust the Chavez regime.
So posting numbers about reduction of poverty that have only been backed by the Chavez government mean nothing to me.
Chavez won't let independent groups review these numbers.
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The thing is I don't don't trust the Chavez regime.
So posting numbers about reduction of poverty that have only been backed by the Chavez government mean nothing to me.
Chavez won't let independent groups review these numbers.
not all the poverty numbers that have been posted here are from the government.
United Nations: Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean.
Latin American Official Confirms Social Advances in Venezuela
The Executive Secretary of the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean of the United Nations (ECLAC), Ana Bárcena, confirmed the positive social statistics referred to by President Hugo Chávez during an interview with journalist Patricia Janiot last week on CNN.
Bárcena, in an interview with Luis Carlos Vélez on CNN en Espańol, emphasized that Venezuela made “very important” progress between 2002 and 2007 in areas like reducing unemployment and the fight against poverty.
“The data I can corroborate are that the unemployment rate fell from 11 percent to 7.4 percent; the extreme poverty rate effectively went from 25 percent to 8.5 percent as of 2007.... Poverty from 51 to 28 percent,” said Bárcena after being asked about the figures used by President Chávez.
In that interview, the President affirmed that the ECLAC recognized Venezuela as having the lowest inequality in Latin America. He also noted that the United Nations highlighted Venezuela as among the countries with the highest level of human development in the region, and presented data that showed a reduction in poverty.
For Bárcena, “Venezuela has implemented social programs that we must evaluate,” and has become one of the countries with the highest social spending, nearly 14 percent of its budget.
The ECLAC Executive Secretary also emphasized that Venezuela has “very positive social indicators.” Regarding the effects of the world economic crisis and the fall of oil prices, she said that “Venezuela could face it.”
Regarding inflation, Bárcena recognized its existence but said it is a problem “that is undergoing corrections throughout the world.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/30/1534
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Chavez won't let independent groups review these numbers.
Myth: The ICG argues that “social spending funded by the oil windfall appears to have yielded only modest and, in the long term, unsustainable gains for the poorest part of the population.”
Fact: The report fails to cite or acknowledge independent studies that have shown a clear decline in poverty in Venezuela during the Chavez Administration. Instead, it discredits official government figures and uses perception polls to back up its unfounded claims. The United Nation’s Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) has documented otherwise, as well as the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington DC. Since 2003, when the first social mission programs were implemented in Venezuela, independent sources have found that the household poverty rate has decreased by 31 percent.[vii]
http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ICG2008.htm
In ECLAC’s 2006 Social Panorama report on Latin America, it found that from 2002 to 2005 extreme poverty had dropped by 10 percent from 48.6 percent to 37.1 percent and between 2002 and 2006 Venezuela’s overall poverty rate had decreased by 18.4 percentage points
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I do not oppose Chavez, but I do oppose corruption and the violation of human rights and basic freedoms. I wish Chavez had done half of what he promised to do.
Hugo, you don't trust me or my sources, or CNN or America, and you blame the opposition for Chavez's failures. ::)
What a cop out.
Well, I don't trust Hugo Chavez, or you and your sources. Those numbers are manipulated. There is no significant reduction in poverty in Venezuela. Explain the increase in crime, if poverty has so significantly decreased?
Where past Venezuelan leaders have been corrupt, Chavez has been more corrupt. Where past Venezuelan leaders have mishandled Venezuela's wealth, Chavez has mishandled it many times more.
No Venezuelan leader has had as much time, power, control and money as Chavez has, yet the poor are still poor and will remain poor. This is your hero, and you talk about morality? ::)
Venezuela is the richest Latin American country with the poorest people.
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I do not oppose Chavez, but I do oppose corruption and the violation of human rights and basic freedoms. I wish Chavez had done half of what he promised to do.
Hugo, you don't trust me or my sources, or CNN or America, and you blame the opposition for Chavez's failures. ::)
What a cop out.
Well, I don't trust Hugo Chavez, or you and your sources. Those numbers are manipulated. There is no significant reduction in poverty in Venezuela. Explain the increase in crime, if poverty has so significantly decreased?
Where past Venezuelan leaders have been corrupt, Chavez has been more corrupt. Where past Venezuelan leaders have mishandled Venezuela's wealth, Chavez has mishandled it many times more.
No Venezuelan leader has had as much time, power, control and money as Chavez has, yet the poor are still poor and will remain poor. This is your hero, and you talk about morality? ::)
Venezuela is the richest Latin American country with the poorest people.
BWHAHAhahahahahahha.... Oh Brother ::)
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BWHAHAhahahahahahha.... Oh Brother ::)
What an intelligent and insightful response!
If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?
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This is funny shit, really. I specifically tried to keep away from sources like venezuelanalysis.com, vensolidarity.net or handsoffvenezuela.com because I knew they would be pretty instantly put down by default. So I tried to keep primarily to sources I thought would be considered. UN, World Bank, Harvard and a few decent commentary sources. What is documented pretty well is the extreme bias by corporate owned media sources which is your primary sources for quoting information! LOL... gee, why would the corporations callaborate with the opposition... duh...
What really just happend was that you were faced with information that was hard to deny so you just said fuck it, I don't trust your sources either. At least there is valid demonstrated and documented reason for not trusting the corporate run media. What is your reason for ignoring say, the United Nations ECLAC?
lol...
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This is funny shit, really. I specifically tried to keep away from sources like venezuelanalysis.com, vensolidarity.net or handsoffvenezuela.com because I knew they would be pretty instantly put down by default. So I tried to keep primarily to sources I thought would be considered. UN, World Bank, Harvard and a few decent commentary sources. What is documented pretty well is the extreme bias by corporate owned media sources which is your primary sources for quoting information! LOL... gee, why would the corporations callaborate with the opposition... duh...
What really just happend was that you were faced with information that was hard to deny so you just said fuck it, I don't trust your sources either. At least there is valid demonstrated and documented reason for not trusting the corporate run media. What is your reason for ignoring say, the United Nations ECLAC?
lol...
What are the UN's, World Bank's and Harvard's sources? The Venezuelan government...ha ha ha. And I already showed you how those numbers were manipulated.
What really just happend was that you were faced with information that was hard to deny so you just said fuck it, I don't trust your sources
This is all you have ever done when it comes to anyone criticizing your hero.
If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?
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What an intelligent and insightful response!
If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?
It's really hard to know for sure. All we can do is speculate on this! Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why. They just blame Chavez. Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;
"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."
Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious. This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America.
now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360
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What an intelligent and insightful response!
If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?
It's really hard to know for sure. All we can do is speculate on this! Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why. They just blame Chavez. Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;
"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."
Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious. This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America against the left and what they've been willing to do in that opposition.
now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360
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What are the UN's, World Bank's and Harvard's sources? The Venezuelan government...ha ha ha. And I already showed you how those numbers were manipulated.
This is all you have ever done when it comes to anyone criticizing your hero.
If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?
i thought the World Bank's numbers were independent of the government? If I'm wrong on that, sorry, can you correct me on that? The UN material I posted is relevant because it's an independent confirmation of the governments statistical claims!!!!!!! The harvard source, while using some numbers from the government, does a good job of putting opposition claims in perspective.
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another point, you bitch that the poverty hasn't come down relative to Venezuela's income. It's not good enough for you that anyway you look at the data, it has come down significantly. Only way it doesn't look good is because the opposition loves to take figures from the period effected by the oil strike. Even the world bank's data places reductions in poverty under Chavez only second to Argentina in South America. Depends on the data sources and years looked at, but however you dice it, it's a significant decrease. Now, the way I see it, it's a bloody fucking miracle he pulled that off considering the power of the opposition fighting to prevent any success by Chavez. A better question would really be to ask, what would be the state of poverty today without such a strong opposition seeking to undermine any success at every turn? Yea, I guess we won't know the answer to that question. That's something that's on your shoulders, not mine. something to think about for anyone with any real morality which is hard if not impossible to find among the opposition. One thing is for sure, when the opposition was in power, they sure didn't give a rats ass about those people and you know it. They don't have a lot of high ground to bitch from then do they!!! All that money would have been pure profit and the poor would still be megaSOL...
Poverty in Venezuela has NOT been reduced significantly.
As for your question about the opposition, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories. I am not "the opposition."
You give the opposition way too much credit. Chavez is the one with the power, the control and the country's wealth at his finger tips, and all these years in power, way more than any other Venezuelan elected leader ever had in the past.
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It's really hard to know for sure. All we can do is speculate on this! Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why. They just blame Chavez. Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;
"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."
Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious. This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America against the left and what they've been willing to do in that opposition.
now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360
I have answered you.
No, when the economy is bad and the poor get desperate, crime increases. You know this and you should be seeing this in your country as well.
Muggins, carjacking, break ins, and murder are significantly up in Venezuela.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.
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i thought the World Bank's numbers were independent of the government? If I'm wrong on that, sorry, can you correct me on that? The UN material I posted is relevant because it's an independent confirmation of the governments statistical claims!!!!!!! The harvard source, while using some numbers from the government, does a good job of putting opposition claims in perspective.
Instituto Nacional de Estadística de Venezuela
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Not sure what you've just posted, but I can't see anything. I'll try again tonight! :)
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Poverty in Venezuela has NOT been reduced significantly.
As for your question about the opposition, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories. I am not "the opposition."
You give the opposition way too much credit. Chavez is the one with the power, the control and the country's wealth at his finger tips, and all these years in power, way more than any other Venezuelan elected leader ever had in the past.
Yes it has ::) Like I said, even the UN personally confirmed the numbers.
It's not a conspiracy theory you fool. You asked a question that required speculation. What I gave you is speculation based on a known history of underhaded tactics against the left in Central and South America. To automatically assume none of that goes on in Venezuela is asking one to be more reaching in their beliefs!!!! Your last comment is just stupid. He may be the president, but he has the most powerful structure in the world allied to the opposition and like a said, a long history of covertly attacking anything leftist down there. What you're asking people to ignore here is the well established history of such behaviour and i think that's a silly thing to ask for ;)
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As for the rest of your post, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.
You never answered me. What would the poverty rates be without an opposition that has sought to undermine Hugo's every move? They have gone down, it's silly that you deny it. I wonder how it would look without him being undermined in his attempt to lower poverty... You blame him when what you support is part of the reason it's not better. So tell me, what would it look like without the intentional undermining of his every move to help the people?
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Yes it has ::) Like I said, even the UN personally confirmed the numbers.
It's not a conspiracy theory you fool. You asked a question that required speculation. What I gave you is speculation based on a known history of underhaded tactics against the left in Central and South America. To automatically assume none of that goes on in Venezuela is asking one to be more reaching in their beliefs!!!! Your last comment is just stupid. He may be the president, but he has the most powerful structure in the world allied to the opposition and like a said, a long history of covertly attacking anything leftist down there. What you're asking people to ignore here is the well established history of such behaviour and i think that's a silly thing to ask for ;)
The UN can't confirm anything. They got their numbers from the Venezuelan government.
I'm not here to discuss speculation. My question does not require it. Crime is significantly up and it is an indicator that poverty has not been significantly reduced as you claim.
As for the rest of your post, more conspiracy theories and assumptions on your part.
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Instituto Nacional de Estadística de Venezuela
how is this a reply to what I asked? What is this for? I know what it is, what are you trying to say. post a source? not sure how you're replying to my post with this?
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The UN can't confirm anything. They got their numbers from the Venezuelan government.
I'm not here to discuss speculation. My question does not require it. Crime is significantly up and it is an indicator that poverty has not been significantly reduced as you claim.
As for the rest of your post, more conspiracy theories and assumptions on your part.
then don't ask my OPINION!!!! That's ALL the opposition has is an opinion on it. The other things we've been talking about are not nearly as speculative. You asked me to speculate with the nature of the question. And it's not a fucking conspiracy theory, what I said about the history is a fucking well established fact. That you call it conspiracy just tells me how little you must know about the history of intervention in Central and South America and the nature of it. Sad, please get educated before you go crying CT...
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You never answered me. What would the poverty rates be without an opposition that has sought to undermine Hugo's every move? They have gone down, it's silly that you deny it. I wonder how it would look without him being undermined in his attempt to lower poverty... You blame him when what you support is part of the reason it's not better. So tell me, what would it look like without the intentional undermining of his every move to help the people?
I have answered you. The opposition has proved to be powerless as they have gotten nothing they have tried to achieve.
Chavez is not attempting to lower poverty. And you call me fool. Chavez's many social programs, rather than being a long-term solution to poverty, are just short-term tactics to boost his popularity.
And what do you mean by "what you support"? What do you know about what I support? You are the one supporting a corrupt and immoral leader.
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then don't ask my OPINION!!!! That's ALL the opposition has is an opinion on it. The other things we've been talking about are not nearly as speculative. You asked me to speculate with the nature of the question. And it's not a fucking conspiracy theory, what I said about the history is a fucking well established fact. That you call it conspiracy just tells me how little you must know about the history of intervention in Central and South America and the nature of it. Sad, please get educated before you go crying CT...
I wasn't asking for your opinion. You are so sure that poverty has been decreased, you must have some explanation for the significant increase in crime.
I'm aware of the history and I am not denying it. But going from that to your assumptions and speculations about Venezuela's present time is a conspiracy theory, unless you have solid proof.
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I wasn't asking for your opinion. You are so sure that poverty has been decreased, you must have some explanation for the significant increase in crime.
I'm aware of the history and I am not denying it. But going from that to your assumptions and speculations about Venezuela's present time is a conspiracy theory, unless you have solid proof.
well I guess I should have ignored your fucking question then ::) Some thanks i get for giving you my thoughts on it. I also posted it in a way that specifically identified it as speculation and not fact. and you still get fucking pissy and label me a CTr over it ::) Yes, you were asking for an opinion. NOBODY HAS PROOF POSITIVE OF WHY THE CRIME RATE HAS BEEN EFFECTED!!! Even your statement on it is speculation! You're just backing it up with what you think is an absolute which is NOT and backing it up with assertions about poverty that go solidly against the fact that poverty has been lowered--you're just making shit up. The only difference between me and you on this is that you're stating your speculation as fact and I'm stating it for what it is AND noting the TRUE history which enables the opinion. oh and it's not ancient history so don't try to put it off like it is...
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I have answered you. The opposition has proved to be powerless as they have gotten nothing they have tried to achieve.
Chavez is not attempting to lower poverty. And you call me fool. Chavez's many social programs, rather than being a long-term solution to poverty, are just short-term tactics to boost his popularity.
And what do you mean by "what you support"? What do you know about what I support? You are the one supporting a corrupt and immoral leader.
Are you freaking serious? next you're going to tell me he hasn't made gains in educating the illiterate and uneducated? You're going to tell me he hasn't brought them much more healthcare than they ever had before? You're going to tell me that doing these things, educating the people at the bottom is doing nothing to address poverty in the long term? Holy fucking dumb and dumber... ::) You have got to be kidding, really....
Oh and that's still not an answer. Powerless my ass. They've done several things to undermine him and you know it. They didn't work because of the support Hugo has there. The opposition would have been ran over in days and that's the only thing that's stopped them. The only trick they haven't pulled out is just shooting him.
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well I guess I should have ignored your fucking question then ::) Some thanks i get for giving you my thoughts on it. I also posted it in a way that specifically identified it as speculation and not fact. and you still get fucking pissy and label me a CTr over it ::) Yes, you were asking for an opinion. NOBODY HAS PROOF POSITIVE OF WHY THE CRIME RATE HAS BEEN EFFECTED!!! Even your statement on it is speculation! You're just backing it up with what you think is an absolute which is NOT and backing it up with assertions about poverty that go solidly against the fact that poverty has been lowered--you're just making shit up. The only difference between me and you on this is that you're stating your speculation as fact and I'm stating it for what it is AND noting the TRUE history which enables the opinion. oh and it's not ancient history so don't try to put it off like it is...
"the fact that poverty has been lowered"? Ha ha ha...more like the fiction that poverty has been lowered.
Oh, now I'm making stuff up? Well, like I said, just as you don't trust me or my sources, likewise, I do not trust you, your sources or the Venezuelan government.
You support a corrupt and immoral leader. I on the other hand I'm neither "the opposition" nor a rich corporation with an agenda. I'm just an average Venezuelan.
Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people! :(
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"the fact that poverty has been lowered"? Ha ha ha...more like the fiction that poverty has been lowered.
Oh, now I'm making stuff up? Well, like I said, just as you don't trust me or my sources, likewise, I do not trust you, your sources or the Venezuelan government.
You support a corrupt and immoral leader. I on the other hand I'm neither "the opposition" nor a rich corporation with an agenda. I'm just an average Venezuelan.
Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people! :(
If that's the way you see it, there's really no point in going on... bummer because this was a very interesting thread for me. I tried to be accomodating in what I posted.
Oh and if you were an Average Venezuelan, Hugo wouldn't be in power. You're in the minority.
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You should watch the golinger vids above.
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Are you freaking serious? next you're going to tell me he hasn't made gains in educating the illiterate and uneducated? You're going to tell me he hasn't brought them much more healthcare than they ever had before? You're going to tell me that doing these things, educating the people at the bottom is doing nothing to address poverty in the long term? Holy fucking dumb and dumber... ::) You have got to be kidding, really....
Oh and that's still not an answer. Powerless my ass. They've done several things to undermine him and you know it. They didn't work because of the support Hugo has there. The opposition would have been ran over in days and that's the only thing that's stopped them. The only trick they haven't pulled out is just shooting him.
Health care? You wanna talk about health care now? Okay. Chavez built tons of tiny clinics around the poorest parts of the country to offer the poor free health care. Aw, how sweet of Chavez.
Where did he get the doctors to plant in this clinics? From Cuba. Most of these were not even real doctors but Cuban Communism indoctrinators, who would push their communist ideologies on the poor as they came in for free health care.
What happened? Many of these Cuban "doctors", once they got to Venezuela, defected to Colombia and from there they went to the US...ha ha ha. Most of these clinics have been abandoned.
It's all a show and you are naive enough to fall for these lies.
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2007/02/03/pol_art_166219.shtml
http://www.2001.com.ve/registro_noticias.asp?registro=110343&sw=1
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Straw Man, you are a self proclaimed pathological liar.
Add Liar to your resume. Not surprising seeing how you defend your beloved fake news network, CNN.
yep, I was pretending not to be aware of what you might find
Yep, you're are now a self proclaimed liar. Good for you. That'll help your impeccable credibility on this board.
yep, maybe next time when I say I'm not aware of something and ask you to post it you'll figure out that I'm setting you up
And you are a pervert too:
just like I do discuss how often they bone their wives (or husbands).
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=640432.0;attach=751949;image)
Everyone here already knew that you are a pervert, constantly inquiring into my whereabouts, and continuously posting photos of bloodied bodies of murdered girls. You probably whack off to those photos on a regular basis, you sick SOB.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=511229.msg8940366#msg8940366
You denied many times being from Venezuela
I'm still waiting for you to show us the "many times" that I have "denied being from Venezuela", you pathological liar.
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Health care? You wanna talk about health care now? Okay. Chavez built tons of tiny clinics around the poorest parts of the country to offer the poor free health care. Aw, how sweet of Chavez.
Where did he get the doctors to plant in this clinics? From Cuba. Most of these were not even real doctors but Cuban Communism indoctrinators, who would push their communist ideologies on the poor as they came in for free health care.
What happened? Many of these Cuban "doctors", once they got to Venezuela, defected to Colombia and from there they went to the US...ha ha ha. Most of these clinics have been abandoned.
It's all a show and you are naive enough to fall for these lies.
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2007/02/03/pol_art_166219.shtml
http://www.2001.com.ve/registro_noticias.asp?registro=110343&sw=1
now who has the conspiracy theory? They weren't even doctors but communist indoctrinators ::) hahaha And that article says 37 are there. A lot more than that were sent there. Is there any proof to this? I can't find any sources on this. You're saying they're all closed? Really? Can you prove that? Sounds like more made up propaganda. I guess the education efforts are all a sham too? You're telling me that isn't a critical tool of addressing longterm poverty? How do you expect them to lift themselves up when they can't even read and or have little to no education? I guess you didn't want to talk about that part, just YOUR CT. :D
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you should watch those videos :)
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now who has the conspiracy theory? They weren't even doctors but communist indoctrinators ::) hahaha And that article says 37 are there. A lot more than that were sent there. Is there any proof to this? I can't find any sources on this. You're saying they're all closed? Really? Can you prove that? Sounds like more made up propaganda. I guess the education efforts are all a sham too? You're telling me that isn't a critical tool of addressing longterm poverty? How do you expect them to lift themselves up when they can't even read and or have little to no education? I guess you didn't want to talk about that part, just YOUR CT. :D
I did not say that they are all closed. Read my post again.
I posted the links. I know that they are in Espańol, but you once told me that didn't matter to you.
Education has always been free in Venezuela. What has Chavez done with that exactly?
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you should watch those videos :)
Is that what you posted that I can't see right now? I will later.
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I did not say that they are all closed. Read my post again.
I posted the links. I know that they are in Espańol, but you once told me that didn't matter to you.
Education has always been free in Venezuela. What has Chavez done with that exactly?
The Spanish is fine. I was just looking for something more on it. I mean if this had any validity to it, the mainstream media here would be all over it. It would be a huge thing they'd parade against him here. I'm not seeing it which suggests to me, that it's even more baseless than some of the stuff they usually enjoy demonizing him with. Seriously, this would be big, where is it in the major media? You know they would be all over it if there were any thing to use in it.
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Is that what you posted that I can't see right now? I will later.
yea, sorry, wasn't sure what you meant by not seeing it. There's nothing there? no links nothing?
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I did not say that they are all closed. Read my post again.
I posted the links. I know that they are in Espańol, but you once told me that didn't matter to you.
Education has always been free in Venezuela. What has Chavez done with that exactly?
Forgot: True, you said "Most of these clinics" which would look really really bad for Hugo if true.
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The only story I can find on it is out of the miami herald which is one of the biggest if not the biggest Hugo Chavez hating papers. But even their numbers quoted are a very small fraction of the doctors sent. Most of them were leaving because their 3 years were up and they're going back and it states they'll be replaced with other doctors doing new tours. Looks like the effort to bring them care was legit to me. Where else would the doctors/help have come from? I would be interested to know if he's putting any money toward training doctors there. Obviously the Cuban thing can't go on forever.
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The only story I can find on it is out of the miami herald which is one of the biggest if not the biggest Hugo Chavez hating papers. But even their numbers quoted are a very small fraction of the doctors sent. Most of them were leaving because their 3 years were up and they're going back and it states they'll be replaced with other doctors doing new tours. Looks like the effort to bring them care was legit to me. Where else would the doctors/help have come from? I would be interested to know if he's putting any money toward training doctors there. Obviously the Cuban thing can't go on forever.
Have you ever talked to someone from venezuela about there country?
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Have you ever talked to someone from venezuela about there country?
yes, and I'm talking to one now.
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yes, and I'm talking to one now.
The girl I know tells me a ton of fucked up stuff man.
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The girl I know tells me a ton of fucked up stuff man.
and? I mean I'm not shocked at that. There's a lot of reasons(their perspective) for some to not like the guy. I mean for some, they saw what they were accustomed to change in a way they don't like. but for others they see a chance for a change they do like. For some they saw a chance to matter. For others they saw change in that they were no longer all that mattered and they don't like that.