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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on March 17, 2010, 01:11:14 PM
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Guys:
I have a question for everyone begging for ObamaCare.
How much should doctors make?
Obviously many here think Doctors make too much money, so my question is "If they make too much now, how much should they make?"
Me personally, I dont begrudge a doctor any salary he/she makes considering:
1. The cost of education.
2. The 8 years spent in school.
3. The 8 years of defrayed earnings.
4. The stress and overhead of medical practice.
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It would depend on circumstances of the Dr and/or nurse. I think nurses are usually underpaid. Dr's however are not. I wouldn't say they are overpaid necessarily but i think some are paid more than their fair share of things.
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It would depend on circumstances of the Dr and/or nurse. I think nurses are usually underpaid. Dr's however are not. I wouldn't say they are overpaid necessarily but i think some are paid more than their fair share of things.
The average doctor makes 150K a year. Is that too much?
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The average doctor makes 150K a year. Is that too much?
100-150K is reasonable. That would put them above 84% of all Americans and 1 to 1.5 times the average income. More than fair compensation if you ask me.
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100-150K is reasonable. That would put them above 84% of all Americans and 1 to 1.5 times the average income. More than fair compensation if you ask me.
Ok. Lets look at something KC - they have to spend 250k for their education and make that up over say 35 years if they retire at 65. So they are spending lets say roughly $7,150.00 a year for their education. So now they are making $142,000 a year correct?
Ok, lets remember that they gave up 8 years of working to get their degree. If the average person makes 40k a year in this country that equals about the sum of $320,000 in defraid earning correct? Over 35 years that amounts to an additional $9,143.00 a year. So now the doctor is making $132,857 a year. That is $2,554 a week.
So lets says the doctor works 60-70 hours a week. At 60 hours a week the doctor is making $42.66 an hour.
Does that sound like a lot to you KC considering what union trades people make who take coffeee breaks every five minutes?
If the Doctors lives in NYC where i live that is not squat!
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Guys:
I have a question for everyone begging for ObamaCare.
How much should doctors make?
Obviously many here think Doctors make too much money, so my question is "If they make too much now, how much should they make?"
Me personally, I dont begrudge a doctor any salary he/she makes considering:
1. The cost of education.
2. The 8 years spent in school.
3. The 8 years of defrayed earnings.
4. The stress and overhead of medical practice.
What do you mean how much should they make?
Shouldn't they all work for themselves and make whatever they want to?
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What do you mean how much should they make?
Shouldn't they all work for themselves and make whatever they want to?
that is not what I am hearing from the proponents of ObamaCare and who think medical costs are too much.
Doctor reimbursements just went down 21% this month on medicare patients. no other profession has to deal with that nonsense. so I am asking, how much should a doctor make since all I hear from Asshole-in-Chief, KC, blacken, Mons, the left wing, et al is that they make too much.
So how much should a doctor make is my question since most think they make too much as it is?
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Ok. Lets look at something KC - they have to spend 250k for their education and make that up over say 35 years if they retire at 65. So they are spending lets say roughly $7,150.00 a year for their education. So now they are making $142,000 a year correct?
Ok, lets remember that they gave up 8 years of working to get their degree. If the average person makes 40k a year in this country that equals about the sum of $320,000 in defraid earning correct? Over 35 years that amounts to an additional $9,143.00 a year. So now the doctor is making $132,857 a year. That is $2,554 a week.
So lets says the doctor works 60-70 hours a week. At 60 hours a week the doctor is making $42.66 an hour.
Does that sound like a lot to you KC considering what union trades people make who take coffeee breaks every five minutes?
If the Doctors lives in NYC where i live that is not squat!
And yet they still make more than 84% of the population. Many people go to school 333, many people have debt to pay. Many people don't cry that they only earn more than 84% of the population.
::)
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that is not what I am hearing from the proponents of ObamaCare and who think medical costs are too much.
Doctor reimbursements just went down 21% this month on medicare patients. no other profession has to deal with that nonsense. so I am asking, how much should a doctor make since all I hear from Asshole-in-Chief, KC, blacken, Mons, the left wing, et al is that they make too much.
So how much should a doctor make is my question since most think they make too much as it is?
Doctors don't make too much money, they make enough. Medical industry in general needs reforming to control costs, generic drugs from other countries would be a start. Doctors would be on the last of the list if not exempt to get their pay screwed with.
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Doctors don't make too much money, they make enough. Medical industry in general needs reforming to control costs, generic drugs from other countries would be a start. Doctors would be on the last of the list if not exempt to get their pay screwed with.
That's fine, but the opposite is occuring under ObamaCare.
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That's fine, but the opposite is occuring under ObamaCare.
That's what i hear. You got a site that sums the Obamacare plan up in an objective outline fashion?
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Medical and Nursing school in the US cost too much. If their salaries decrease, school costs better decrease too or nobody will want to become a doctor or nurse in the future. Malpractice insurance is another problem for them too, not so much for nurses, but for doctors and nurse practitioners.
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Medical and Nursing school in the US cost too much. If their salaries decrease, school costs better decrease too or nobody will want to become a doctor or nurse in the future. Malpractice insurance is another problem for them too, not so much for nurses, but for doctors and nurse practitioners.
Exactly. I deal in reality and what is. I simply cabnnot see how we can expect a doctor to take on 250k in debt and tell him/her that the govt employee hanging out not doing a damn thing all day and leaving at 4:45 every day should make the same salary.
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I'm going to literally laugh my balls off the first time one of these "doctors are all greedy and make way too much money" people can't get to a physician in what they think is reasonable time under the new healthcare plan.
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I'm going to literally laugh my balls off the first time one of these "doctors are all greedy and make way too much money" people can't get to a physician in what they think is reasonable time under the new healthcare plan.
KAJE - IS MY MATH ALL THAT OFF AS LISTED ABOVE?
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KAJE - IS MY MATH ALL THAT OFF AS LISTED ABOVE?
The math is pretty off but correcting you would involve putting too much personal stuff out there. Let's just say
You did ignore a few factors: student loans have to be repaid in ten years, private loans are higher interest rates and residents don't get paid much.
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The math is pretty off but correcting you would involve putting too much personal stuff out there. Let's just say
You did ignore a few factors: student loans have to be repaid in ten years, private loans are higher interest rates and residents don't get paid much.
So you are saying that you end up with even less than i calculated?
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yea but the doctors in NYC get a special license plate and can park wherever the fuck they want..there is a perk, but your right in NYC that isnt shit
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yea but the doctors in NYC get a special license plate and can park wherever the fuck they want..there is a perk, but your right in NYC that isnt shit
I am trying to leave NYC because the taxes, costs, etc are insane. I want to go to Texas.
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It's still the best city besides San Diego
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It's still the best city besides San Diego
I'm sick of it and had my run. I want something different at this point and family and GF are the only things keeping me here. I can operate my business from anywhere.
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I know what you mean 333386, if it wasn't for a house with no mortgage or rent, I'd move back to nj/nyc area in a heartbeat
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I know what you mean 333386, if it wasn't for a house with no mortgage or rent, I'd move back to nj/nyc area in a heartbeat
My sis bought a HUGE house in Syracuse area for 300k in a nice nabe with normal people and noram negihbors and a huge lake nearby with familes etc.
Where I live a rat infested dump starts at 500k w 10k in property taxes and I have to deal with cramped conditions, united nations'esqe population, etc.
I am just sick of it. I buy everything online because I dont want to be around these people anymore.
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They should make whatever their patients and carriers, etc. are willing pay. No caps.
Those who favor limits on private sector salaries are repeating Obama's line about what constitutes a high enough salary for execs. It's not the government's job to be controlling private sector salaries.
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My sis bought a HUGE house in Syracuse area for 300k in a nice nabe with normal people and noram negihbors and a huge lake nearby with familes etc.
Where I live a rat infested dump starts at 500k w 10k in property taxes and I have to deal with cramped conditions, united nations'esqe population, etc.
I am just sick of it. I buy everything online because I dont want to be around these people anymore.
Be sure to call next time you visit her. We'll have a smoke.
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Be sure to call next time you visit her. We'll have a smoke.
Its called Cicero near lake oneida.
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Its called Cicero near lake oneida.
Doable. There's a great cigar store (Edward Thomas) pretty close to there.
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Doable. There's a great cigar store (Edward Thomas) pretty close to there.
I went so some cool bbq [;ace over there last time in downtown.
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I went so some cool bbq [;ace over there last time in downtown.
I can't really understand this...
you say that i use drugs?
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My sis bought a HUGE house in Syracuse area for 300k in a nice nabe with normal people and noram negihbors and a huge lake nearby with familes etc.
Where I live a rat infested dump starts at 500k w 10k in property taxes and I have to deal with cramped conditions, united nations'esqe population, etc.
I am just sick of it. I buy everything online because I dont want to be around these people anymore.
Apparently you do everything online..as you haven't left here in the last couple months..
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I went so some cool bbq [;ace over there last time in downtown.
Probably the Dinosaur.
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Guys:
I have a question for everyone begging for ObamaCare.
How much should doctors make?
Obviously many here think Doctors make too much money, so my question is "If they make too much now, how much should they make?"
Me personally, I dont begrudge a doctor any salary he/she makes considering:
1. The cost of education.
2. The 8 years spent in school.
3. The 8 years of defrayed earnings.
4. The stress and overhead of medical practice.
how did you arrive at this conclusion?
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how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Nicky, Saopl, and KC said doctors make too much money in other threads.
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Nicky, Saopl, and KC said doctors make too much money in other threads.
They probably think doctors should pay them for being patients.
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They probably think doctors should pay them for being patients.
Ha Ha. Probably right. What is most disgusting is that those two want to undermine our doctors and import third world doctors because they think they will save a dollar knowing that our domestic students pay a ton for their education.
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Ha Ha. Probably right. What is most disgusting is that those two want to undermine our doctors and import third world doctors because they think they will save a dollar knowing that our domestic students pay a ton for their education.
They'll have to learn Gujarati, LOL!
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They'll have to learn Gujarati, LOL!
I'm serious Kaje, the election of Obama has been the absolute worst thing to happen forthis country in a long time. I'm not talking about the historic aspect of a first black president and that stuff, but the unleashing of outright marxism and undermining anything and everything that once made our country great such as the idea of personal responsiblity, reward and incentive based model, etc.
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I'm serious Kaje, the election of Obama has been the absolute worst thing to happen forthis country in a long time. I'm not talking about the historic aspect of a first black president and that stuff, but the unleashing of outright marxism and undermining anything and everything that once made our country great such as the idea of personal responsiblity, reward and incentive based model, etc.
We've managed to survive everything else. Every time someone mentions real change you have to hear "racist!" or "What about the children?!", LOL! We'll probably all be better off when things get so bad that people vote, spend and everything else pro American. Starving, dying citizens in the streets won't stop congress from sending money and jobs abroad.
We'll just have to survive an all out attack on small business and the middle class. No more, no less. :)
The race of whoever is taking your money shouldn't matter but poorer whites will never recover, LOL!
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We've managed to survive everything else. Every time someone mentions real change you have to hear "racist!" or "What about the children?!", LOL! We'll probably all be better off when things get so bad that people vote, spend and everything else pro American. Starving, dying citizens in the streets won't stop congress from sending money and jobs abroad.
We'll just have to survive an all out attack on small business and the middle class. No more, no less. :)
The race of whoever is taking your money shouldn't matter but poorer whites will never recover, LOL!
The middle class of all races is going to get wiped out by this admn. Like I said from Day 1, Obama is a dictator wannabe who thinks we should have a massive underclass and a few uber wealthy at the top that he thinks he is part of.
He hates the middle class with a passion and its obvious every day. Who else hates the middle class? Oh thats rright - KM and VL. But I am not supposed to say that.
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The middle class of all races is going to get wiped out by this admn. Like I said from Day 1, Obama is a dictator wannabe who thinks we should have a massive underclass and a few uber wealthy at the top that he thinks he is part of.
He hates the middle class with a passion and its obvious every day. Who else hates the middle class? Oh thats rright - KM and VL. But I am not supposed to say that.
You cannot redistribute (nationalize, seize or whatever clever word they use now) the wealth of actual rich people without destroying the middle class first. :)
The top 1-1.5% of Americans pay nearly 40% of all taxes so it's funny to me when someone says doctors are in the top 15% yet they ignore successful drug reps, salespeople, lawyers, etc... and any other profession that takes years of school and business development.
I'm not going to worry and always have the nuclear option.
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You cannot redistribute (nationalize, seize or whatever clever word they use now) the wealth of actual rich people without destroying the middle class first. :)
The top 1-1.5% of Americans pay nearly 40% of all taxes so it's funny to me when someone says doctors are in the top 15% yet they ignore successful drug reps, salespeople, lawyers, etc... and any other profession that takes years of school and business development.
I'm not going to worry and always have the nuclear option.
IDK, I am not as tame as you are and not willing roll over and play dead as quickly as others will. I work hard for wehat I have and am not going to let greedy thieves like many of those on this board steal it from me voluntarily.
Let those lazy punks go through 7 years of school and work 70-80 hours a week.
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IDK, I am not as tame as you are and not willing roll over and play dead as quickly as others will. I work hard for wehat I have and am not going to let greedy thieves like many of those on this board steal it from me voluntarily.
Let those lazy punks go through 7 years of school and work 70-80 hours a week.
I'm not "tame", LOL! People really won't wake up to the agenda until things get really bad so there's no point. We'll keep pretending printing more money or more taxes will cure all that ails until stealing from the very rich is the only option left.
I can always live on the islands and work from a beach office. :)
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Nicky, Saopl, and KC said doctors make too much money in other threads.
I never said they make too much 333. I said they make more than enough right now, and to think earning 100-150K is not more than enough to live on is a joke.
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I never said they make too much 333. I said they make more than enough right now, and to think earning 100-150K is not more than enough to live on is a joke.
1. Who the hell are you to make that judgement?
2. When is 100-150K not enough according to you?
3. 150k for a family in NYC is barely middle class.
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The middle class of all races is going to get wiped out by this admn. Like I said from Day 1, Obama is a dictator wannabe who thinks we should have a massive underclass and a few uber wealthy at the top that he thinks he is part of.
He hates the middle class with a passion and its obvious every day. Who else hates the middle class? Oh thats rright - KM and VL. But I am not supposed to say that.
Middle class was destroyed years ago by republicans who voted for tax cuts to the rich, were glad handed by corporations hiring illegals aliens and stalled on raising the minimum wage.
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Middle class was destroyed years ago by republicans who voted for tax cuts to the rich, were glad handed by corporations hiring illegals aliens and stalled on raising the minimum wage.
Oh GMAFB with that garbage. Seriously grow up and educate yourself. Go look up Glass Stegal, the CRA, Rubin/Summers/Geithwer, Fannie/Freddy etc.
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1. Who the hell are you to make that judgement?
2. When is 100-150K not enough according to you?
3. 150k for a family in NYC is barely middle class.
Never said i was making that judgement. YOU asked how much Dr's should make. I said i don't think Dr's are underpaid at all and pointed out they make on average more than 84% of Americans. I said Nurses are underpaid but not Dr's, then you went on some rant about how i'm trying to dictate pay. I stated and i stand by it that making 100-150K on average is very VERY reasonable.
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Oh GMAFB with that garbage. Seriously grow up and educate yourself. Go look up Glass Stegal, the CRA, Rubin/Summers/Geithwer, Fannie/Freddy etc.
Haha can't see the truth huh? Think it's all the liberals fault ::) i never shy away from the fact that dems have made bad policy changes in the past that have affected the middle class of this country, but in truth the major errosion has/was caused by republicans. There was a time when one could work a 9-5 work week and still afford a home on a single income. Somehow we have more millionaires than ever before, yet the middle class now have to have both parents working. Hmmmm. The rich get richer and the middle class works harder. Explain that to me 333? How exactly did top rate tax cuts help out the middle class? How did freezing the minimum wage help the middle/lower class? How did the GOP being supported by companies hiring illegals help the middle class? It didn't.
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Never said i was making that judgement. YOU asked how much Dr's should make. I said i don't think Dr's are underpaid at all and pointed out they make on average more than 84% of Americans. I said Nurses are underpaid but not Dr's, then you went on some rant about how i'm trying to dictate pay. I stated and i stand by it that making 100-150K on average is very VERY reasonable.
Ask Shoot, Kaje, and Mal about that.
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Never said i was making that judgement. YOU asked how much Dr's should make. I said i don't think Dr's are underpaid at all and pointed out they make on average more than 84% of Americans. I said Nurses are underpaid but not Dr's, then you went on some rant about how i'm trying to dictate pay. I stated and i stand by it that making 100-150K on average is very VERY reasonable.
Not when it takes $300+K in debt to get there.
I guess people will just have to find out the hard way. :-\
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Ask Shoot, Kaje, and Mal about that.
why would i ask someone who does the job? Aren't they going to say they don't make enough regardless? If you ask anyone they'll always say they could or should make more. It's a fact of life. I think 100-150K as an average is very reasonable. I stand by that. what would you prefer 333 that their average be higher than 95% of all Americans? 84% ain't cutting it?
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Not when it takes $300+K in debt to get there.
I guess people will just have to find out the hard way. :-\
Kaje - how far off was my math yesterday? And was it in the right or wrong direction?
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Doctors should make approximately 3.36 per hour and nurses should make 2.24 per hour. Afterall, you can buy a whole cart full of groceries for 38 cents.
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There is no way in hell that physicians go through all they do with nights, call, weekends, years of volunteer work, endless studying & tests, delayed pay, long stressful work weeks and have competed to be among the educated elite for $100,000/yr kc. That is ludicrous. By the way, it's 12 years of schooling post high school (I know 333 meant 8 years post college).
It's not about what is reasonable to live on, it is about compensation for talent, the service provided, complicated job, all the sacrifice. Some compensation is based on skill, take for instance a pro athlete. As a comparison, the vast majority of Americans don't have the ability to get through medical school & residency.
The average family doctor makes approx $140,000/yr. That's too little. Certain specialists may make too much, that I agree with.
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Not when it takes $300+K in debt to get there.
I guess people will just have to find out the hard way. :-\
I couldn't care any less about what debt you have/had. I have debt too wanna give me a raise regardless of how good i am at my job as well? ::) Sounds to me like the Dr's in here are more like UAW members. Wanting more and more money without being better and better Dr's. If you truly are a good Dr you will always be taken care of financially. If you suck well i guess you still have more money than 84% of Americans.
If it truly costs someone 300K to become a Dr then this debate isn't about earning more it's about costing less to study. Period.
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It's amazing how liberals want to dictate their idea of fairness. Why don't you go through everything I've been through (and other docs) and then say $100K/yr is what we deserve. How about sticking to criticizing pro athletes and fat cat CEOs making multi-millions...there I agree.
Nursing salaries have gone up in the last decade. Doctor's salaries are fairly stagnant.
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There is no way in hell that physicians go through all they do with nights, call, weekends, years of volunteer work, endless studying & tests, delayed pay, long stressful work weeks and have competed to be among the educated elite for $100,000/yr kc. That is ludicrous. By the way, it's 12 years of schooling post high school (I know 333 meant 8 years post college).
It's not about what is reasonable to live on, it is about compensation for talent, the service provided, complicated job, all the sacrifice. Some compensation is based on skill, take for instance a pro athlete. As a comparison, the vast majority of Americans don't have the ability to get through medical school & residency.
The average family doctor makes approx $140,000/yr. That's too little. Certain specialists may make too much, that I agree with.
Then like i said this debate is not about making more. It's about costing less. School costing less, loans costing less etc.
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kc, you really need to experience the long road docs travel before you speak on what is fair compensation, you have no idea.
And if you use your 84%...that's approximately 2 out of every 10 people. There is no way in hell 2 out of every 10 people could make it through med school & residency. Not only does it require higher intelligence but an unbelieveable amount of hard work for 12 years. Very few people can make that committment & sacrifice. That's why they have nurse practitioners and P.A's who sacrifice less, compete less and make less money...but are in the same field.
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I think Dr. Drew Pinsky and Dr. Oz should make 2.7 billion dollars a year and the cast of Doctors on the show "The Doctors" should earn a total of 4.3 billion between all of them since they are part of the same practice.
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It's amazing how liberals want to dictate their idea of fairness. Why don't you go through everything I've been through (and other docs) and then say $100K/yr is what we deserve. How about sticking to criticizing pro athletes and fat cat CEOs making multi-millions...there I agree.
Nursing salaries have gone up in the last decade. Doctor's salaries are fairly stagnant.
I have said i believe it's fair and i stand by it. I never ONCE said that a Dr shouldn't be able to earn more. But earning more than 84% of the population on average is better than well 84% of the population. Many of whom spend 4+ years in school, many of whom have debts for student loans etc.
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I couldn't care any less about what debt you have/had. I have debt too wanna give me a raise regardless of how good i am at my job as well? ::) Sounds to me like the Dr's in here are more like UAW members. Wanting more and more money without being better and better Dr's. If you truly are a good Dr you will always be taken care of financially. If you suck well i guess you still have more money than 84% of Americans.
If it truly costs someone 300K to become a Dr then this debate isn't about earning more it's about costing less to study. Period.
WTF is wrong with you? Your car and credit card debt is on purchases, not in furtherance of a degree requiring a state license.
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why would i ask someone who does the job? Aren't they going to say they don't make enough regardless? If you ask anyone they'll always say they could or should make more. It's a fact of life. I think 100-150K as an average is very reasonable. I stand by that. what would you prefer 333 that their average be higher than 95% of all Americans? 84% ain't cutting it?
Someone doing the job can tell you what it costs. That's why.
I realize $150K sounds like a lot of money but it really isn't when you consider what walking in that room and asking "How are you today?" costs.
If plumbers needed that much education, time, debt and sacrifice we'd all be peeing outside. :)
Thankfully, MD is a terminal degree in most states so there are many options for those with medical degrees which don't include practice. I just worry about what will happen to patients when the financial reality of this nonsense translates into less care. Seeing the level of indifference some have towards heal care providers makes it easier but people still need care.
33, you were off by over $100K, LOL!
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It's amazing how liberals want to dictate their idea of fairness. Why don't you go through everything I've been through (and other docs) and then say $100K/yr is what we deserve. How about sticking to criticizing pro athletes and fat cat CEOs making multi-millions...there I agree.
Nursing salaries have gone up in the last decade. Doctor's salaries are fairly stagnant.
This is why we will end up with DMV style - Third World medicine in this country once ObamaCare goes through.
You liberals are vile communists and should all rot in hell for what you want for this country.
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kc, you really need to experience the long road docs travel before you speak on what is fair compensation, you have no idea.
Why? No one put a gun to a Dr's head. YOU made that choice. You earn more than 84% of the population that is more than fair and reasonable.
I agree student costs should be less, it should cost no more than 100K to study medicine. The govt should be pursuing a way to make it more affordable without compromising the education. Through more funding or maybe a government run school to bring competition to the market place etc.
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I think Dr. Drew Pinsky and Dr. Oz should make 2.7 billion dollars a year and the cast of Doctors on the show "The Doctors" should earn a total of 4.3 billion between all of them since they are part of the same practice.
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And if you use your 84%...that's approximately 2 out of every 10 people. There is no way in hell 2 out of every 10 people could make it through med school & residency. Not only does it require higher intelligence but an unbelieveable amount of hard work for 12 years (then a lifetime of long hours and continued learning). Very few people can make that committment & sacrifice. That's why they have nurse practitioners and P.A's who sacrifice less, compete less and make less money...but are in the same field.
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Why? No one put a gun to a Dr's head. YOU made that choice. You earn more than 84% of the population that is more than fair and reasonable.
I agree student costs should be less, it should cost no more than 100K to study medicine. The govt should be pursuing a way to make it more affordable without compromising the education. Through more funding or maybe a government run school to bring competition to the market place etc.
What should be and what is are two different things.
I know libs have a hard time with reality.
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What do you do kc?
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And if you use your 84%...that's approximately 2 out of every 10 people. There is no way in hell 2 out of every 10 people could make it through med school & residency. Not only does it require higher intelligence but an unbelieveable amount of hard work for 12 years. Very few people can make that committment & sacrifice. That's why they have nurse practitioners and P.A's who sacrifice less, compete less and make less money...but are in the same field.
These are the people you gave up years of life, missed out on cool shit and took on buttloads of debt/responsibility to serve. :)
Kinda scary, huh?
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These are the people you gave up years of life, missed out on cool shit and took on buttloads of debt/responsibility to serve. :)
Kinda scary, huh?
Let em die and wait in the ER Kaje.
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Is Dr. Oz overpaid?
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And if you use your 84%...that's approximately 2 out of every 10 people. There is no way in hell 2 out of every 10 people could make it through med school & residency. Not only does it require higher intelligence but an unbelieveable amount of hard work for 12 years (then a lifetime of long hours and continued learning). Very few people can make that committment & sacrifice. That's why they have nurse practitioners and P.A's who sacrifice less, compete less and make less money...but are in the same field.
Then lets make it cheaper for people who have the ability to go through the process.
If you are a good Dr i am sure you can and will make more than 100-150K. That is the average, if that ain't cutting it for you then you either need to become a better Dr to earn more, change fields or you picked the wrong specialty/job. I realise Dr's make great sacrifices and i applaud them for that. I think the cost of their education should be less than half of what it is, but i do not and will never think that Dr's are underpaid when they earn more than 84% of Americans on average.
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What do you do kc?
I work in finance shoot.
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Then lets make it cheaper for people who have the ability to go through the process.
If you are a good Dr i am sure you can and will make more than 100-150K. That is the average, if that ain't cutting it for you then you either need to become a better Dr to earn more, change fields or you picked the wrong specialty/job. I realise Dr's make great sacrifices and i applaud them for that. I think the cost of their education should be less than half of what it is, but i do not and will never think that Dr's are underpaid when they earn more than 84% of Americans on average.
Again - you are in dreamland.
We are talking about reality.
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Again - you are in dreamland.
We are talking about reality.
Is Dr. Oz underpaid?
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Shoot,
CRNA: $136,600 Avg, $146,521 Med, $156,814 75th percentile.
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Again - you are in dreamland.
We are talking about reality.
No you are in dreamland. why shouldn't the cost of learning be more affordable? If it provides a better living for the Dr's aren't you all for it? Sh*t here you are debating they should earn more than what they do and i'm saying lets lower the cost of the schooling and you're against it? wow. Nice one there 333, really smart.
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George Clooney used to be a good Doctor.
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Of course I could have picked another specialty if I wanted to make more (and that's why we are seeing less and less students pick family practice) but I wanted to help people as a general doc from before entering med school. I also thought the practice of medicine would be more like it was for my doctor when I was a kid. They weren't micromanaged by hospitals, insurance, gov...they made more $ (when you look at cost of living in that time), and were afforded more respect. It was truely an elite and honorable profession. Things have really changed.
If no one made more than $250K, then I would be ok with docs making $150K/yr (as long as education costs decrease). I think the thought process with liberals is that no one should make over 250K. But right now, they do and doctors proportionally work harder than 95% of people out there.
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No you are in dreamland. why shouldn't the cost of learning be more affordable? If it provides a better living for the Dr's aren't you all for it? Sh*t here you are debating they should earn more than what they do and i'm saying lets lower the cost of the schooling and you're against it? wow. Nice one there 333, really smart.
Because things have costs fool!
Who do you think pays for the labs, professors, teachers, electricity, lights, etc? You seriously need an education in business and economics.
You libs think everything is free and nothing costs money. Its unreal.
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The current state of doctors getting shit on with decreasing salaries, increasing tuitions, longer working hours and the host of other issues is what turned me off to going to med school after I finished my pre-med requirements. Taking on $200k+ in debt isn't the only problem. Doctor's aren't making $140k right out the door from med school, either. They make about $40k during their residencies if they're lucky and those can run anywhere from 3-7 years depending on whether one specializes or not. So you start to make OK money in your 30s but most of it is going towards paying off school debts.
My buddy is in med school right now and wanted to go into plastics but he decided it's just not feasible to spend 7 years afterwards specializing in it. He'd be in his early 30s and just starting to make money.
People say that you shouldn't go into medicine if you're motivated by money but a line has to be drawn somewhere. People want top notch health care while crying that doctors make too much. It's moronic and they'll be the ones paying in the long run when less skilled and qualified people are doctors as all the good ones were driven out.
Every doctor I've spoken to has told me that this is an awful time to go into medicine.
It's much more feasible to go into something like finance where you can be making great money in your 20s/early 30s and have much less debt should one not get a MBA.
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Another point. In medicine, the best docs don't make the most money. Most docs now work for hospitals so the salaries are standard and they make your schedule and try to pack too many patient in. They actually treat you like an assembly worker and see you as replaceable.
When the majority of docs were in private practice, yes the better docs were busier and could make more money...but then you must decide how many patients can you see per hour and still give them excellent care. So, our financial ceiling is limited by quality of care! And reimbursement, of course. In private practice, If I was reimbursed $150 per patient, I could schedule 30 min visits for everyone. The fact is my average insurance reimbursement is $65 so I either see tons of patients, reduce my overhead, or just accept less salary.
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Berzerk, I hear exactly what you are saying....and I bet a lot of people considering med school agree. That's also why we are loosing primary care docs. I almost went into Ortho (and had an acceptance into ortho residency...but reminded myself I set out to be a family doc so decided on FP with subspecialty in clinical sports medicine...non-surgical).
I have seen 4 patients between these emails by the way. Love multi-tasking.
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Another point. In medicine, the best docs don't make the most money. Most docs now work for hospitals so the salaries are standard and they make your schedule and try to pack too many patient in. They actually treat you like an assembly worker and see you as replaceable.
When the majority of docs were in private practice, yes the better docs were busier and could make more money...but then you must decide how many patients can you see per hour and still give them excellent care. So, our financial ceiling is limited by quality of care! And reimbursement, of course. In private practice, If I was reimbursed $150 per patient, I could schedule 30 min visits for everyone. The fact is my average insurance reimbursement is $65 so I either see tons of patients, reduce my overhead, or just accept less salary.
Shoot - you are supposed to work for free remember?
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Dr. Conrad Murray is rich.
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Because things have costs fool!
Who do you think pays for the labs, professors, teachers, electricity, lights, etc? You seriously need an education in business and economics.
You libs think everything is free and nothing costs money. Its unreal.
When did i say it was free? I said the govt should shovel more funding towards school costs for all Americans, Dr's included. If that means a tax increase of some kind or perhaps less money somewhere else so be it. Read what i say before making such outlandish foolish comments.
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When did i say it was free? I said the govt should shovel more funding towards school costs for all Americans, Dr's included. If that means a tax increase of some kind or perhaps less money somewhere else so be it. Read what i say before making such outlandish foolish comments.
And who pays for that? there is no free lunch in this world and the sooner you libs realize that the sooner we will be better off as a nation.
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Of course I could have picked another specialty if I wanted to make more (and that's why we are seeing less and less students pick family practice) but I wanted to help people as a general doc from before entering med school. I also thought the practice of medicine would be more like it was for my doctor when I was a kid. They weren't micromanaged by hospitals, insurance, gov...they made more $ (when you look at cost of living in that time), and were afforded more respect. It was truely an elite and honorable profession. Things have really changed.
If no one made more than $250K, then I would be ok with docs making $150K/yr (as long as education costs decrease). I think the thought process with liberals is that no one should make over 250K. But right now, they do and doctors proportionally work harder than 95% of people out there.
When have i said they shouldn't earn more than 250K? Obviously your issue is with school costs and the way the system is run. That's fine. Lets debate the changes needed to make those more beneficial to all Dr's.
But to say oh we just need more money that'll do the trick, doesn't solve anything. All it does is continue to let things be as they are until no money is ever enough.
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And who pays for that? there is no free lunch in this world and the sooner you libs realize that the sooner we will be better off as a nation.
Are you dense? Did i say it was free? Did i stutter on that point? No. I'm aware the money would either come from a tax increase or moving existing funds from somewhere else. I have said that over and over, somehow you don't get it. Since you're all for Dr's getting more would you be okay with a tax increase to lower schooling costs for Dr's? Or would that too be 'stealing'.
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Are you dense? Did i say it was free? Did i stutter on that point? No. I'm aware the money would either come from a tax increase or moving existing funds from somewhere else. I have said that over and over, somehow you don't get it. Since you're all for Dr's getting more would you be okay with a tax increase to lower schooling costs for Dr's? Or would that too be 'stealing'.
No, we tax too much already. Get the govt out of this with all the mandates, regulations, etc, and costs would come down.
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In addition to the school costs, there's the numerous other reasons (above) that doctors should be near the top of the pay scale. Compare a doctor's job to 95% of others and you'll see that it takes a unique, driven, highly intelligent person who sacrificed 12+ years of schooling/long hrs and volunteering, then a continued profession of life & death decisions, long hours and stress.
Part of how we determine compensation is to see how many people can do a certain job. Now, they went overboard with pro athletes but the idea is similar. Even if docs make more than 80% of people, far less than 20% of the population have the ability and is willing to go through what it takes to be a doctor.
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No, we tax too much already. Get the govt out of this with all the mandates, regulations, etc, and costs would come down.
what specific examples do you have of govt regulations and mandates that would reduce costs without reducing care or risk to patients/doctors?
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what specific examples do you have of govt regulations and mandates that would reduce costs without reducing care or risk to patients/doctors?
EMTALA, HIPPA, Tort Reform, etc.
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In addition to the school costs, there's the numerous other reasons (above) that doctors should be near the top of the pay scale. Compare a doctor's job to 95% of others and you'll see that it takes a unique, driven, highly intelligent person who sacrificed 12+ years of schooling/long hrs and volunteering, then a continued profession of life & death decisions, long hours and stress.
Part of how we determine compensation is to see how many people can do a certain job. Now, they went overboard with pro athletes but the idea is similar. Even if docs make more than 80% of people, far less than 20% of the population have the ability and is willing to go through what it takes to be a doctor.
Apparently those are the reasons why libs think doctors should be volunteers.
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EMTALA, HIPPA, Tort Reform, etc.
Tort reform is in the current bill i believe. Do you know how much it would save and what costs would be passed onto Dr's?
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Tort reform is in the current bill i believe. Do you know how much it would save and what costs would be passed onto Dr's?
Estimates are 200 Billion a year in defensive medicine costs alone.
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Estimates are 200 Billion a year in defensive medicine costs alone.
And what would be passed onto Dr's? Which specific bill would be changed and what are the consequences of such an action? Who estimates that? You?
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And what would be passed onto Dr's? Which specific bill would be changed and what are the consequences of such an action? Who estimates that? You?
It would be passed along in the form of better care and more time w the patients. Sure the MRI centers would not like it, but who cares?
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It would be passed along in the form of better care and more time w the patients. Sure the MRI centers would not like it, but who cares?
So what would you change about those? I mean you can throw around 'change this, change that' but what exactly are you changing here and how do we know the cost will get to Dr's? Seems to me shoot was saying administrators are taking a large chunk and putting pressure on Dr's. They are setting the amount they earn etc. How do we know this wouldn't just mean an increase in salary for administrators and hospitals themselves?
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So what would you change about those? I mean you can throw around 'change this, change that' but what exactly are you changing here and how do we know the cost will get to Dr's? Seems to me shoot was saying administrators are taking a large chunk and putting pressure on Dr's. They are setting the amount they earn etc. How do we know this wouldn't just mean an increase in salary for administrators and hospitals themselves?
It works like this KC - docs bill certain codes for procedures etc. What they bill is not what they get though. So for example - if a doc bills $125 he might only get back $60.00. Out of that $60 he has to pay for the staff, overhead, rent etc.
When the docs reimbursement gets cut, the only way the doc can make it up is less care and time with the patients. Does that make sense to you?
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Tort reform is in the current bill i believe. Do you know how much it would save and what costs would be passed onto Dr's?
Lower malpractice costs would end up passed on to doctors and taxpayers because medicare, medicaid and other schedules include its cost in the technical component of fee schedules. Lowering malpractice costs would translate into lower office visit fees in more cases than people would be willing to believe. It would also lower hospital rates by pretty much the same manner.
Tort reform (properly done) would lower the cost of practice and increase healthcare availability.
I don't know how much killing or at the very least simplifying HIPPA would save, but compliance isn't easy or cheap.
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Never heard that TORT reform is on the current bill.
Can anyone show it? And is the reform impacting?
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Never heard that TORT reform is on the current bill.
Can anyone show it? And is the reform impacting?
Its not. KC is making this up.
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There may be many problems with the current system but earning power is pretty darn low on the list. Fact is if school was cheaper, hospitals were run without so many administrators then what the average Dr earns currently would be more than sufficient. Heck it still is.
84% of Americans earn less than a Dr, they too have debts, they are suffering through the biggest housing crisis ever seen. Negative equity is a way of life for millions of Americans and yet we have people like 333 who are against helping them through government stimulus, yet here he is advocating that the top 15% earnings in America get a pay raise instead of making things cheaper all around.
Millions of Americans carry huge debt compared to their income too. If anything the Dr has a debt worth having IMO. If you were to ask me would i rather have a 300K mortgage and a 50K job or 300K student debt and a 150K job what do you think would be the smart choice? get a grip Dr's. Yes you work hard, you work long hours and you deserve to be compensated for it. Hence you earn more than 84% of Americans. That is fair and reasonable. If school is too expensive then lets decrease those costs for all.
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It works like this KC - docs bill certain codes for procedures etc. What they bill is not what they get though. So for example - if a doc bills $125 he might only get back $60.00. Out of that $60 he has to pay for the staff, overhead, rent etc.
When the docs reimbursement gets cut, the only way the doc can make it up is less care and time with the patients. Does that make sense to you?
And you know these will work out that way how? Hospital administrators will still take a bigger cut and schooling will continue to go up. THOSE are the issues, pricing everything out at a higher and higher rate is not the answer.
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Never heard that TORT reform is on the current bill.
Can anyone show it? And is the reform impacting?
I'm not sure how impacting it is but huffington post had it as an issue republicans are crying over yet is actually in the bill.
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No body knows whats in the bill other than hear-say, has the bill been posted ( remember 72 hrs before a vote ) no.
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No body knows whats in the bill other than hear-say, has the bill been posted ( remember 72 hrs before a vote ) no.
Its the Senate Bill essentially which is a complete farce. Only a jackass would support that crap.
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Someone making $50K is stupid to have a $300K mortgage in the first place.
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Someone making $50K is stupid to have a $300K mortgage in the first place.
very true, they and the banks are at fault for that
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very true, they and the banks are at fault for that
As is the borrwer!
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As is the borrwer!
[/quote
that is what i meant about they and the banks
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Absolutely kaje.
Clarifications: There are two type of practices: private and hospital based. Because overhead costs have skyrocketed and there are more insurance & gov mandates (paperwork, HIPPA, EMR, etc) more docs are now working for hospitals. Reimbursement doesn't directly affect the docs who are salaried by hospitals and the docs aren't billing but reimbursement directly impacts private docs who are self-employed or part of a small group practice. Hope that helps explain things.
kc, your 84% and debt arguments don't account for all the other shit we had to go through and the fact that far less than 2 out of 10 Americans are able to become doctors. Docs should be among the highest paid professions for all the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. If everyone else is capped at 250K then I have less of a problem with a doc earning less than $150K.
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Doctors make to much money!
Really? Exactly how much is your life worth?
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Absolutely kaje.
Clarifications: There are two type of practices: private and hospital based. Because overhead costs have skyrocketed and there are more insurance & gov mandates (paperwork, HIPPA, EMR, etc) more docs are now working for hospitals. Reimbursement doesn't directly affect the docs who are salaried by hospitals and the docs aren't billing but reimbursement directly impacts private docs who are self-employed or part of a small group practice. Hope that helps explain things.
kc, your 84% and debt arguments don't account for all the other shit we had to go through and the fact that far less than 2 out of 10 Americans are able to become doctors. Docs should be among the highest paid professions for all the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. If everyone else is capped at 250K then I have less of a problem with a doc earning less than $150K.
Shoot - it doesnt matter to the marxists!
In their warped minds, garbage men should make as much as doctors.
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Absolutely kaje.
Clarifications: There are two type of practices: private and hospital based. Because overhead costs have skyrocketed and there are more insurance & gov mandates (paperwork, HIPPA, EMR, etc) more docs are now working for hospitals. Reimbursement doesn't directly affect the docs who are salaried by hospitals and the docs aren't billing but reimbursement directly impacts private docs who are self-employed or part of a small group practice. Hope that helps explain things.
kc, your 84% and debt arguments don't account for all the other shit we had to go through and the fact that far less than 2 out of 10 Americans are able to become doctors. Docs should be among the highest paid professions for all the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. If everyone else is capped at 250K then I have less of a problem with a doc earning less than $150K.
Shoot please point out where i advocated a cap on salary or earnings. Please anyone point out where i said they should not earn any more.
I have said over and over again that they are fairly compensated. 80% of Americans can't do the job right shoot? Well Dr's get paid better than 84% of Americans. Seems like a very reasonable and fair average earning.
Once again i've never said they should or anyone should be capped. All i said was they earn a fair amount now. I do advocate lower costs all around like schooling, lower administration fees etc. Those i agree with. But saying Dr's are not paid fairly i do NOT agree with.
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Shoot - it doesnt matter to the marxists!
In their warped minds, garbage men should make as much as doctors.
In your warped mind our president is born in kenya, sarah palin was a good candidate for VP and taxation is stealing ::)
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Absolutely kaje.
Clarifications: There are two type of practices: private and hospital based. Because overhead costs have skyrocketed and there are more insurance & gov mandates (paperwork, HIPPA, EMR, etc) more docs are now working for hospitals. Reimbursement doesn't directly affect the docs who are salaried by hospitals and the docs aren't billing but reimbursement directly impacts private docs who are self-employed or part of a small group practice. Hope that helps explain things.
kc, your 84% and debt arguments don't account for all the other shit we had to go through and the fact that far less than 2 out of 10 Americans are able to become doctors. Docs should be among the highest paid professions for all the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. If everyone else is capped at 250K then I have less of a problem with a doc earning less than $150K.
I should have been a little more specific. I more or less meant docs who trade technical and occasionally professional component for the privilege of treating patients in the hospital. You know them.... guys who have to get the "We provide a lot of infrastructure, costs have gone up, reimbursements have gone down so you've got to pay a little more to play" pep talk every two years. :)
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meanwhile....
(http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/meanwhile-in-21.jpg)
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Shoot please point out where i advocated a cap on salary or earnings. Please anyone point out where i said they should not earn any more.
I have said over and over again that they are fairly compensated. 80% of Americans can't do the job right shoot? Well Dr's get paid better than 84% of Americans. Seems like a very reasonable and fair average earning.
Once again i've never said they should or anyone should be capped. All i said was they earn a fair amount now. I do advocate lower costs all around like schooling, lower administration fees etc. Those i agree with. But saying Dr's are not paid fairly i do NOT agree with.
How much should a doc earn per hour KC?
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How much should a doc earn per hour KC?
I have already stated this that what they currently earn as a salary is very fair and reasonable. If there are shortages and Dr's are having to work longer hours than they would like then perhaps they should either renegotiate their contract or support the hiring of other Dr's to decrease the workload burden.
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I have already stated this that what they currently earn as a salary is very fair and reasonable. If there are shortages and Dr's are having to work longer hours than they would like then perhaps they should either renegotiate their contract or support the hiring of other Dr's to decrease the workload burden.
Right, and adding more patients onto their workload without an increase in reimbursement how does that work?
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Right, and adding more patients onto their workload without an increase in reimbursement how does that work?
Nurse practitioners will fill the gap at lower pay rates until doctors agree to work for less or find different careers.
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Right, and adding more patients onto their workload without an increase in reimbursement how does that work?
says who? 32 million more patients, yes. but those 32 million now have coverage so it's no longer a bad debt write off for Dr or hospital. dr's seem to be the only business i've heard of who shun more paying customers.
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says who? 32 million more patients, yes. but those 32 million now have coverage so it's no longer a bad debt write off for Dr or hospital. dr's seem to be the only business i've heard of who shun more paying customers.
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And hence why you are a lib and complain about 6 minute doc visits. .
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And hence why you are a lib and complain about 6 minute doc visits. .
hahaha when have i complained about any Dr visits? You're an idiot have you even ever been to a country with govt run health care? If Dr's are over worked your solution is to pay them more? Wow way to get at the problem there 333. ::)
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hahaha when have i complained about any Dr visits? You're an idiot have you even ever been to a country with govt run health care? If Dr's are over worked your solution is to pay them more? Wow way to get at the problem there 333. ::)
Ask Kaje or Shoot who knows more about this you or me.