How much should Doctors and Nurses make?

[drkaje]

Shoot,

CRNA: $136,600 Avg, $146,521 Med, $156,814 75th percentile.

[kcballer]

Again - you are in dreamland. 

We are talking about reality. 

No you are in dreamland.  why shouldn't the cost of learning be more affordable?  If it provides a better living for the Dr's aren't you all for it?  Sh*t here you are debating they should earn more than what they do and i'm saying lets lower the cost of the schooling and you're against it?  wow.  Nice one there 333, really smart.

[The True Adonis]

George Clooney used to be a good Doctor.

[shootfighter1]

Of course I could have picked another specialty if I wanted to make more (and that's why we are seeing less and less students pick family practice) but I wanted to help people as a general doc from before entering med school.  I also thought the practice of medicine would be more like it was for my doctor when I was a kid.  They weren't micromanaged by hospitals, insurance, gov...they made more $ (when you look at cost of living in that time), and were afforded more respect.  It was truely an elite and honorable profession.  Things have really changed.

If no one made more than $250K, then I would be ok with docs making $150K/yr (as long as education costs decrease).  I think the thought process with liberals is that no one should make over 250K.  But right now, they do and doctors proportionally work harder than 95% of people out there.

[Soul Crusher]

No you are in dreamland.  why shouldn't the cost of learning be more affordable?  If it provides a better living for the Dr's aren't you all for it?  Sh*t here you are debating they should earn more than what they do and i'm saying lets lower the cost of the schooling and you're against it?  wow.  Nice one there 333, really smart.

Because things have costs fool!  

Who do you think pays for the labs, professors, teachers, electricity, lights, etc?  You seriously need an education in business and economics.  

You libs think everything is free and nothing costs money.  Its unreal.  

[Fury]

The current state of doctors getting shit on with decreasing salaries, increasing tuitions, longer working hours and the host of other issues is what turned me off to going to med school after I finished my pre-med requirements. Taking on $200k+ in debt isn't the only problem. Doctor's aren't making $140k right out the door from med school, either. They make about $40k during their residencies if they're lucky and those can run anywhere from 3-7 years depending on whether one specializes or not. So you start to make OK money in your 30s but most of it is going towards paying off school debts.

My buddy is in med school right now and wanted to go into plastics but he decided it's just not feasible to spend 7 years afterwards specializing in it. He'd be in his early 30s and just starting to make money.

People say that you shouldn't go into medicine if you're motivated by money but a line has to be drawn somewhere. People want top notch health care while crying that doctors make too much. It's moronic and they'll be the ones paying in the long run when less skilled and qualified people are doctors as all the good ones were driven out.

Every doctor I've spoken to has told me that this is an awful time to go into medicine.

It's much more feasible to go into something like finance where you can be making great money in your 20s/early 30s and have much less debt should one not get a MBA.

[shootfighter1]

Another point.  In medicine, the best docs don't make the most money.  Most docs now work for hospitals so the salaries are standard and they make your schedule and try to pack too many patient in.  They actually treat you like an assembly worker and see you as replaceable. 

When the majority of docs were in private practice, yes the better docs were busier and could make more money...but then you must decide how many patients can you see per hour and still give them excellent care.  So, our financial ceiling is limited by quality of care!   And reimbursement, of course.  In private practice, If I was reimbursed $150 per patient, I could schedule 30 min visits for everyone.  The fact is my average insurance reimbursement is $65 so I either see tons of patients, reduce my overhead, or just accept less salary.

[shootfighter1]

Berzerk, I hear exactly what you are saying....and I bet a lot of people considering med school agree.  That's also why we are loosing primary care docs.  I almost went into Ortho (and had an acceptance into ortho residency...but reminded myself I set out to be a family doc so decided on FP with subspecialty in clinical sports medicine...non-surgical).
I have seen 4 patients between these emails by the way.  Love multi-tasking.

[Soul Crusher]

Another point.  In medicine, the best docs don't make the most money.  Most docs now work for hospitals so the salaries are standard and they make your schedule and try to pack too many patient in.  They actually treat you like an assembly worker and see you as replaceable. 

When the majority of docs were in private practice, yes the better docs were busier and could make more money...but then you must decide how many patients can you see per hour and still give them excellent care.  So, our financial ceiling is limited by quality of care!   And reimbursement, of course.  In private practice, If I was reimbursed $150 per patient, I could schedule 30 min visits for everyone.  The fact is my average insurance reimbursement is $65 so I either see tons of patients, reduce my overhead, or just accept less salary.

Shoot - you are supposed to work for free remember? 

[The True Adonis]

Dr. Conrad Murray is rich.

[kcballer]

Because things have costs fool!  

Who do you think pays for the labs, professors, teachers, electricity, lights, etc?  You seriously need an education in business and economics.  

You libs think everything is free and nothing costs money.  Its unreal.  

When did i say it was free?  I said the govt should shovel more funding towards school costs for all Americans, Dr's included.  If that means a tax increase of some kind or perhaps less money somewhere else so be it.  Read what i say before making such outlandish foolish comments.

[Soul Crusher]

When did i say it was free?  I said the govt should shovel more funding towards school costs for all Americans, Dr's included.  If that means a tax increase of some kind or perhaps less money somewhere else so be it.  Read what i say before making such outlandish foolish comments.

And who pays for that?  there is no free lunch in this world and the sooner you libs realize that the sooner we will be better off as a nation. 

[kcballer]

Of course I could have picked another specialty if I wanted to make more (and that's why we are seeing less and less students pick family practice) but I wanted to help people as a general doc from before entering med school.  I also thought the practice of medicine would be more like it was for my doctor when I was a kid.  They weren't micromanaged by hospitals, insurance, gov...they made more $ (when you look at cost of living in that time), and were afforded more respect.  It was truely an elite and honorable profession.  Things have really changed.

If no one made more than $250K, then I would be ok with docs making $150K/yr (as long as education costs decrease).  I think the thought process with liberals is that no one should make over 250K.  But right now, they do and doctors proportionally work harder than 95% of people out there.

When have i said they shouldn't earn more than 250K?  Obviously your issue is with school costs and the way the system is run.  That's fine.  Lets debate the changes needed to make those more beneficial to all Dr's. 

But to say oh we just need more money that'll do the trick, doesn't solve anything.  All it does is continue to let things be as they are until no money is ever enough.

[kcballer]

And who pays for that?  there is no free lunch in this world and the sooner you libs realize that the sooner we will be better off as a nation. 

Are you dense?  Did i say it was free?  Did i stutter on that point?  No.  I'm aware the money would either come from a tax increase or moving existing funds from somewhere else.  I have said that over and over, somehow you don't get it.  Since you're all for Dr's getting more would you be okay with a tax increase to lower schooling costs for Dr's?  Or would that too be 'stealing'.

[Soul Crusher]

Are you dense?  Did i say it was free?  Did i stutter on that point?  No.  I'm aware the money would either come from a tax increase or moving existing funds from somewhere else.  I have said that over and over, somehow you don't get it.  Since you're all for Dr's getting more would you be okay with a tax increase to lower schooling costs for Dr's?  Or would that too be 'stealing'.

No, we tax too much already.  Get the govt out of this with all the mandates, regulations, etc, and costs would come down.

[shootfighter1]

In addition to the school costs, there's the numerous other reasons (above) that doctors should be near the top of the pay scale.  Compare a doctor's job to 95% of others and you'll see that it takes a unique, driven, highly intelligent person who sacrificed 12+ years of schooling/long hrs and volunteering, then a continued profession of life & death decisions, long hours and stress. 

Part of how we determine compensation is to see how many people can do a certain job.  Now, they went overboard with pro athletes but the idea is similar.  Even if docs make more than 80% of people, far less than 20% of the population have the ability and is willing to go through what it takes to be a doctor.

[kcballer]

No, we tax too much already.  Get the govt out of this with all the mandates, regulations, etc, and costs would come down.

what specific examples do you have of govt regulations and mandates that would reduce costs without reducing care or risk to patients/doctors? 

[Soul Crusher]

what specific examples do you have of govt regulations and mandates that would reduce costs without reducing care or risk to patients/doctors? 

EMTALA, HIPPA, Tort Reform, etc.

[drkaje]

In addition to the school costs, there's the numerous other reasons (above) that doctors should be near the top of the pay scale.  Compare a doctor's job to 95% of others and you'll see that it takes a unique, driven, highly intelligent person who sacrificed 12+ years of schooling/long hrs and volunteering, then a continued profession of life & death decisions, long hours and stress. 

Part of how we determine compensation is to see how many people can do a certain job.  Now, they went overboard with pro athletes but the idea is similar.  Even if docs make more than 80% of people, far less than 20% of the population have the ability and is willing to go through what it takes to be a doctor.

Apparently those are the reasons why libs think doctors should be volunteers.

[kcballer]

EMTALA, HIPPA, Tort Reform, etc.

Tort reform is in the current bill i believe.  Do you know how much it would save and what costs would be passed onto Dr's? 

[Soul Crusher]

Tort reform is in the current bill i believe.  Do you know how much it would save and what costs would be passed onto Dr's? 

Estimates are 200 Billion a year in defensive medicine costs alone. 

[kcballer]

Estimates are 200 Billion a year in defensive medicine costs alone. 

And what would be passed onto Dr's?  Which specific bill would be changed and what are the consequences of such an action?  Who estimates that?  You? 

[Soul Crusher]

And what would be passed onto Dr's?  Which specific bill would be changed and what are the consequences of such an action?  Who estimates that?  You? 

It would be passed along in the form of better care and more time w the patients.  Sure the MRI centers would not like it, but who cares? 

[kcballer]

It would be passed along in the form of better care and more time w the patients.  Sure the MRI centers would not like it, but who cares? 

So what would you change about those?  I mean you can throw around 'change this, change that' but what exactly are you changing here and how do we know the cost will get to Dr's?  Seems to me shoot was saying administrators are taking a large chunk and putting pressure on Dr's.  They are setting the amount they earn etc.  How do we know this wouldn't just mean an increase in salary for administrators and hospitals themselves? 

[Soul Crusher]

So what would you change about those?  I mean you can throw around 'change this, change that' but what exactly are you changing here and how do we know the cost will get to Dr's?  Seems to me shoot was saying administrators are taking a large chunk and putting pressure on Dr's.  They are setting the amount they earn etc.  How do we know this wouldn't just mean an increase in salary for administrators and hospitals themselves? 

It works like this KC - docs bill certain codes for procedures etc.  What they bill is not what they get though.  So for example - if a doc bills $125 he might only get back $60.00.  Out of that $60 he has to pay for the staff, overhead, rent etc. 

When the docs reimbursement gets cut, the only way the doc can make it up is less care and time with the patients.  Does that make sense to you?