Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Stavios on August 02, 2010, 08:54:27 AM
-
What's up, this question is for the bros in the knows 8)
I have "carb cycled" before for my show in 2007, I was doing my diet alone so I didn't really know what I was doing but I got pretty lean.
but isn't this pretty much only calories cycling ?
I mean, are you guys upping your fats on the low carb days ?
I wasn't raising anything when I did it
-
a calorie is not a calorie...so is is not just calorie cycling.
low carb days = burn fat deplete glycogen
hi carb days = refill glycogen, stimulate metabolism
i eat 1.25g lean protein per lb
trace fats + 1 yolk
on high carb days i eat less protein, 1g per lb or little less, try to keep fat minimal.
i cycle carbs like this
1 150g
2 150g
3 300g
4 150g
5 150g
6 100g
7 300g
Do the above vs eating 185g carbs per day...your body will get used to the latter imo.
-
No because a "calorie IS NOT a calorie" lol.
-
No because a "calorie IS NOT a calorie" lol.
Yeah, if you use the "right" calories you get ripped even when eating in excess of metabolic rate/daily requirement. Some calories are magic calories, especially when timed "right". Just ask Berardi. :P
-
No because a "calorie IS NOT a calorie" lol.
I know that.
that's why I ask, do you guys raise your fats or proteins on the lower carbs days ?
cause when I did my "carb cycle", I dropped the carbs but didn't up anything.
so of course the calories were lowere on low carb days
-
Yeah, if you use the "right" calories you get ripped even when eating in excess of metabolic rate/daily requirement. Some calories are magic calories, especially when timed "right". Just ask Berardi. :P
I don't question John on anything. I find when I do he gives me a complete verbal thesis that goes all the way through lunch and dinner and I wind up falling asleep from brain overload :-\
-
I know that.
that's why I ask, do you guys raise your fats or proteins on the lower carbs days ?
cause when I did my "carb cycle", I dropped the carbs but didn't up anything.
so of course the calories were lowere on low carb days
From what I've read, you would up the fats a little on the lower carb days. Not totally replacing the entire amount of lost calories, but cutting the deficit a little.
-
a calorie is not a calorie...so is is not just calorie cycling.
low carb days = burn fat deplete glycogen
hi carb days = refill glycogen, stimulate metabolism
Why would I want to deplete glycogen for days on top of being on a deficit? Too risky for muscle loss and ending up flat.
If someone can burn fat just as effectively with pleny of carbs and a calorie deficit, why cut the carbs? I never understood this logic.
I remember when I tried low carbs before, I ended up flat and lost muscle, it didn't matter how much protein or fat I was eating.
Couldn't someone just stimulate metabolism by just eating at maintenance or above for a day?
-
Why would I want to deplete glycogen for days on top of being on a deficit? Too risky for muscle loss and ending up flat.
If someone can burn fat just as effectively with pleny of carbs and a calorie deficit, why cut the carbs? I never understood this logic.
I remember when I tried low carbs before, I ended up flat and lost muscle, it didn't matter how much protein or fat I was eating.
Couldn't someone just stimulate metabolism by just eating at maintenance or above for a day?
It's weird but it seems I can't lose bodyfat on my back without lowering the carbs.
When I do a Keto diet, I get ripped VERY fast, but I end up with no striations what so ever (at 9-10% bf I don't even have a single striation in my chest)
Last year I dieted with Keto, I got to 196 lbs lean (but nowhere near contest shape) when my contest weight the year before was 193 lbs.
So it didn't make any sense to me.
so I got off the diet and added carbs, my weight got up to 218 and I had striation everywhere, while having a smoother look.
then I added insulin and I was 230, 2 weeks later and still the same bf, with some water retention.
but the problem with that is that I was stuck at 9% bf and couldn't go lower because I started the Keto while I was too fat
-
Why would I want to deplete glycogen for days on top of being on a deficit? Too risky for muscle loss and ending up flat.
If someone can burn fat just as effectively with pleny of carbs and a calorie deficit, why cut the carbs? I never understood this logic.
I remember when I tried low carbs before, I ended up flat and lost muscle, it didn't matter how much protein or fat I was eating.
Couldn't someone just stimulate metabolism by just eating at maintenance or above for a day?
if u get flat and lose muscle your carbs are too low. up them a little. it's a thin line :D
-
It's weird but it seems I can't lose bodyfat on my back without lowering the carbs.
When I do a Keto diet, I get ripped VERY fast, but I end up with no striations what so ever (at 9-10% bf I don't even have a single striation in my chest)
Last year I dieted with Keto, I got to 196 lbs lean (but nowhere near contest shape) when my contest weight the year before was 193 lbs.
So it didn't make any sense to me.
so I got off the diet and added carbs, my weight got up to 218 and I had striation everywhere, while having a smoother look.
then I added insulin and I was 230, 2 weeks later and still the same bf, with some water retention.
but the problem with that is that I was stuck at 9% bf and couldn't go lower because I started the Keto while I was too fat
The carb tolerance thing maybe very individual as you're showing in your experience, but I still have my doubts.
-
if u get flat and lose muscle your carbs are too low. up them a little. it's a thin line :D
True, but my question is why lower carbs besides the point of getting a calorie deficit?
I just don't understand why some people say they can't lose fat if their carbs are above a certain limit despite having a calorie deficit.
In all honesty, I much rather keep carbs as high as I can to keep myself full and manipulate overall calories to lose fat. I don't understand the need for a carb cycling.
-
so whats ur question stavy? you want a way to diet all the way down while keeping your muscles and striations? youve got to come down slowly and keep the weights heavy.
-
Yeah, I've tried it all, keto, moderate carbs, high carbs....
It seems by keeping the carbs high and lowering calories, I was still able to lose fat, but when it came down to the nitty gritty and to get really shredded, I still had to lower the carbs drastically, it just would not go off any other way!
I don't carb cycle, I only gradually lower my carbs as the weeks go by, only during the last 4 weeks do I start implementing 1 carb up day, and thats cause at that point my carbs are pretty damn low, almost down to 0 really!
-
True, but my question is why lower carbs besides the point of getting a calorie deficit?
I just don't understand why some people say they can't lose fat if their carbs are above a certain limit despite having a calorie deficit.
In all honesty, I much rather keep carbs as high as I can to keep myself full and manipulate overall calories to lose fat. I don't understand the need for a carb cycling.
usually the lower BF% you get the harder it is to lose fat = carbs need to come down...if it was possible everyone would diet on 400g carbs. The body learns to make up for the small calories deficits when carbs are high, much harder to make up for low carb as long as you have high days to keep metabolism up...something something, i'm not an expert...check out what Chris Aceto writes. he plays around with carbs whilst keeping fat at min and protein between 1-1,5g per lb
-
usually the lower BF% you get the harder it is to lose fat = carbs need to come down...if it was possible everyone would diet on 400g carbs. The body learns to make up for the small calories deficits when carbs are high, much harder to make up for low carb as long as you have high days to keep metabolism up...something something, i'm not an expert...check out what Chris Aceto writes. he plays around with carbs whilst keeping fat at min and protein between 1-1,5g per lb
Yeah but I know some people, the lowest they ever went with their carbs was like 190g, I have to go down to like 20 g the last few weeks!
-
usually the lower BF% you get the harder it is to lose fat = carbs need to come down...if it was possible everyone would diet on 400g carbs. The body learns to make up for the small calories deficits when carbs are high, much harder to make up for low carb as long as you have high days to keep metabolism up...something something, i'm not an expert...check out what Chris Aceto writes. he plays around with carbs whilst keeping fat at min and protein between 1-1,5g per lb
I understand, but when carbs come down so are overall calories right? Or do you replace them with fat?
If carbs come down when a plateau is reached, this would be just reducing calories and more fat is lost due to this, since protein would never be reduced if someone is already eating 1g per lb and fat is already kind of low.
I don't know, I guess I'm just going to have to experience on my own and see how lean I can get just focusing on a calorie dificit.
-
Yeah but I know some people, the lowest they ever went with their carbs was like 190g, I have to go down to like 20 g the last few weeks!
welcome to the club! I need to go down to 40g at least and always feel like a zombie. It really sucks.
-
welcome to the club! I need to go down to 40g at least and always feel like a zombie. It really sucks.
if you need to lower your carbs to 40g then you are either eating way too much fat or you arent training very hard.
-
so whats ur question stavy? you want a way to diet all the way down while keeping your muscles and striations? youve got to come down slowly and keep the weights heavy.
I want the impossible, losing fat quickly while not getting all flat.
ok not the impossible, but I don't want to use DNP ;D
In fact, I don't want to use any cutting drugs and do any cardio until I am 6-7% bf.
I still have a few weeks of dieting before I get there.
and then, BOOM !
I up the drugs, insert T3 and Clen, start some cardio and get shredded as a motherfuck.
just for the sake of it, I want to get down to inhuman conditionning (not doing a show anytime soon)
-
I understand, but when carbs come down so are overall calories right? Or do you replace them with fat?
If carbs come down when a plateau is reached, this would be just reducing calories and more fat is lost due to this, since protein would never be reduced if someone is already eating 1g per lb and fat is already kind of low.
I don't know, I guess I'm just going to have to experience on my own and see how lean I can get just focusing on a calorie dificit.
no you don't replace the calories with fat. but remember carbs = energy calories, if the body has a lack of energy it needs to take it from stored calories (fat) ...if it has enough energy, no need to take as much from fat.
try eating 150C & 300P Vs 300C & 150P...and see which you lose more fat on, both beeing the same amount of calories.
Everyone is different, some get lean very easy, others need to use every trick in the book, low carb, carb cycling, lots of cardio etc...
-
welcome to the club! I need to go down to 40g at least and always feel like a zombie. It really sucks.
I can eat 0 carbs for days and days and I never feel tired or anything.
even when I deplete and eat protein only for a few days, it's weird
-
I can eat 0 carbs for days and days and I never feel tired or anything.
even when I deplete and eat protein only for a few days, it's weird
most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. ;D
im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.
-
most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. ;D
im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.
You must be looking mean 8)
Aceto apparently had Troy Alves diet with less then 2000 calories a day sometimes during his prep this year 8)
-
if you need to lower your carbs to 40g then you are either eating way too much fat or you arent training very hard.
Dude, try like 20-30g of fat, two cardio sessions (45 mins Low intensity in the AM, and 20 minutes High Intensity in the PM), plus 2-3 hours of weight training! I really don't think thats the reason!
-
doing progym cup? watch out brother ;D
-
Dude, try like 20-30g of fat, two cardio sessions (45 mins Low intensity in the AM, and 20 minutes High Intensity in the PM), plus 2-3 hours of weight training! I really don't think thats the reason!
sounds like you do too much, your body is used to it...you have two options, increase cardio even more(not good) or try take a week off from cardio and then restart it. and once a day is enough
-
most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. ;D
im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.
Because it's all psychological, right?
Tbombz serious question, How many bodybuilders have you trained for shows and how many athletes have you trained?
-
most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. ;D
im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.
wow 300g carbs in one meal :o
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?
-
to the original question - yes carb cycling is simply calorie cycling. This is assuming you do not up protein or fat amounts to compensate - but why bother ?
all fat loss boils down to reducing energy calories via reduced diet or more exercise.
To those of you that claim you need to take carbs down to zero or 20g etc to get shredded - lower your protein intake.
you are not finally losing fat because of some magic no/low carbs provides, you are losing fat because your calories are in deficit.
you are forgetting that any excess protein is broken down into energy by the body - So if your protein intake is too high you would indeed have to reduce carbs and/or fats to lower overall calorie intake.
you would be better lowering your protein intake and increasing carbs - this would give you more energy, more cellular hydration, and ultimately more control over your diet.
don't take my word for it - science backs this advice 100%
-
wow 300g carbs in one meal :o
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?
studies show the body can absorb 700g of pasta after a workout with 0g converted to bodyfat. ;)
also over the course of a day 300g of carbs is only 1200cals - not much really, and also the best possible time to take them in too.
-
to the original question - yes carb cycling is simply calorie cycling. This is assuming you do not up protein or fat amounts to compensate - but why bother ?
all fat loss boils down to reducing energy calories via reduced diet or more exercise.
To those of you that claim you need to take carbs down to zero or 20g etc to get shredded - lower your protein intake.
you are not finally losing fat because of some magic no/low carbs provides, you are losing fat because your calories are in deficit.
you are forgetting that any excess protein is broken down into energy by the body - So if your protein intake is too high you would indeed have to reduce carbs and/or fats to lower overall calorie intake.
you would be better lowering your protein intake and increasing carbs - this would give you more energy, more cellular hydration, and ultimately more control over your diet.
don't take my word for it - science backs this advice 100%
agreed! some ppl eat way too much protein. There is no need for 500g P a day...maybe if you're 250+ lean and juiced to the tits, but even then it's high.
studies show the body can absorb 700g of pasta after a workout with 0g converted to bodyfat. ;)
also over the course of a day 300g of carbs is only 1200cals - not much really, and also the best possible time to take them in too.
I know it can absorb a lot but that is just ridiculous?!?! 700g pasta really? that's like 450-500g carbs...
what about "preworkout meal is more important than postworkout meal" ? i would at least get 50g before...
-
wow 300g carbs in one meal :o
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?
i like to eat whatever i feel like on a daily basis. so i limit it to one meal. the rest of the day i eat protein and vegetables. except pre workout i have some fruit. works real well. people overthink diet. and yes, coach, its all psychological.
-
well most studies point to pre workout being better than post workout, however the study i am refering too in particular was post workout. i also made a mistake it was only 400g of pasta :-[ see below:
Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Duclos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C.
Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, CP 6128 Centre-Ville, Montréal, Québec H3C 3J7, Canada.
Abstract
The metabolic response to a 150 or 400 g 13C-labelled pasta meal was studied for 8 h following rest or exercise at low or moderate workload (n 6). Following rest, the 400 g meal totally suppressed fat oxidation (v. 14.1 g following the 150 g meal) and a small amount of glucose was converted into fat (4.6 g), but fat oxidation remained high in subjects who had exercised following both the small (21.8 and 34.1 g) and large meal (14.1 and 32.3 g). Exogenous glucose oxidation was significantly higher in subjects who had remained at rest both following the small (67.6 g v. 60.4 and 51.3 g in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads) and large meal (152.2 v. 123.0 and 127.2 g). Endogenous glucose oxidation was similar in the three groups following the 150 g meal (42.3-58.0 g), but was significantly lower following the 400 g meal in subjects who had exercised at low workload (24.2 v. 72.2 g following rest; and was totally suppressed in those who had exercised at moderate workload. As a consequence, a larger positive glycogen balance was observed in subjects who exercised before the large meal (182.8-205.1 g v. 92.4 g following rest; Total fat oxidation calculated from 08.00 hours to 20.00 hours was similar in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads. These results indicate that: (1) de novo lipogenesis, which plays only a minor role for the disposal of an acute dietary carbohydrate load, is totally suppressed following exercise, even when a very large carbohydrate load is ingested; (2) the reduction in glycogen turnover as well as a preferential conversion of glucose into glycogen are responsible for the increase in glycogen stores following exercise; (3) for a similar energy expenditure, exercise at low workload for a longer period does not favour fat oxidation when the post-exercise period is taken into account.
however i swear i have read one that gave 700g carbs and there was also no fat gain. i'll try to find it and post it.
-
Just eat a balanced diet.
-
1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.
No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.
As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! :)
-
another that shows 5g of pasta per kg of bodyweight post workout - again no fat storage. this is around double most peoples carb intake for any average day.
Metabolic response to a large starch meal after rest and exercise: comparison between men and women.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Charpentier S, Lavoie C.
Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, Centre-Ville, Montréal, Quebec, Canada.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Net whole-body and hepatic de novo lipogenesis could be more active in women than in men, but no comparison has been made between men and women in the two phases of the ovarian cycle after ingestion of a large carbohydrate meal. OBJECTIVE: We hypothesized that net whole-body de novo lipogenesis could be larger in women than men, and that glycogen and fat balance could be, respectively, lower and higher, following a large pasta meal ingested after rest or exercise. DESIGN: The metabolic response to a pasta meal (5 g dry weight/kg body mass) was studied in six men and six women (matched for age and BMI) in the follicular and luteal phases, following rest or exercise (90 min at 50% VO(2max)). Protein, glucose, and fat oxidation, and net whole-body de novo lipogenesis were computed for 10 h following ingestion of the meal using indirect respiratory calorimetry corrected for urea excretion. RESULTS: No net whole-body de novo lipogenesis was observed in any group in any situation (postrest and postexercise). When the meal was ingested following exercise, fat oxidation was significantly higher and glucose oxidation was significantly lower (P<0.05) than following the period of rest, and in a given experimental situation, the respective contributions of protein, fat, and glucose oxidation to the energy yield were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle. CONCLUSIONS: The contribution of substrate oxidation to the energy expenditure as well as fat and glycogen balance, and the effect of a previous exercise period, were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle following ingestion of the large carbohydrate meal.
here is the definative text on de novo lipogenisis ( carb conversion to bodyfat ):
http://www.portalsaudebrasil.com/artigospsb/fisiolog160.pdf
in it you can read about the 700g carbs per day, it was does in a study by Acheson. It took 3 days of eating 700g of carbs before any fat storage took place. Even then it was very very low.
its a great text if you have the time.
-
lol @ the "up the fats" guys. ::)
stavios, just have your carbs steady throu the week and have a day where you "up" them, or simply have a "cheat meal".
-
Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.
-
1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.
No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.
As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! :)
I know it's not rocket science, I'm just being impatient here ;D
And I don't want to use all the tools at the beginning of the diet like last year, cause when you get to a certain point where you don't lose bodyfat anymore, you are fucked.
and yes, I should not have gotten 50 lbs overweight in the first place once again ;D
-
guys the only thing that determines fat loss is energy deficit:
Fat loss depends on energy deficit only, independently of the method for weight loss.
Strasser B, Spreitzer A, Haber P.
Department of Internal Medicine IV, Division of Sports Medicine, Medical University Vienna, Vienna, Austria. barbara.strasser@trainingstherapie.at
Abstract
BACKGROUND: This study was designed to compare the effects of 2 different but isocaloric fat reduction programs with the same amount of energy deficit - diet alone or diet combined with aerobic training - on body composition, lipid profile and cardiorespiratory fitness in non- or moderately obese women. METHODS: Twenty non- or moderately obese (BMI 24.32 +/- 3.11) females (27.3 +/- 6.6 years) were tested at the beginning and after an 8-week period of a mild hypocaloric diet for the following parameters: (1) body mass and body fat; (2) total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C and triglycerides; (3) lactate (millimol/liter) during submaximal exertion (100 W); (4) heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W), and (5) maximum exercise performance (watt). Subjects were randomly divided into either a diet alone (D, -2,095 +/- 659 kJ/day) or a diet (-1,420 +/- 1,084 kJ/day) plus exercise (DE, three 60-min sessions per week at 60% of VO(2)max or -5,866 kJ/week) group. RESULTS: Body mass and body fat decreased significantly in D (-1.95 +/- 1.13 kg or -1.47 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05) and DE (-2.23 +/- 1.28 kg or -1.59 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05), but there was no significant difference observed between the groups. Statistical analysis revealed no significant changes of total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides and heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W). Lactic acid accumulation during submaximal exertion (100 W) decreased significantly (-0.8 +/- 1.4 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in DE and increased significantly (+0.4 +/- 0.5 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in D. Maximum exercise performance improved significantly (+12.2 +/- 8.8 W, p < 0.05) in DE and did not change significantly in D. CONCLUSIONS: This study showed that independently of the method for weight loss, the negative energy balance alone is responsible for weight reduction. (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.
i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.
-
Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.
Well personnally I have never been "that" tired from being low carbs.
Even that one time I did 2 weeks of protein only , I felt just like I always do when I eat carbs.
I never got the "I am too tired to complete my training" I see some bodybuilders have a month out from a show.
My friend who is trained by Christian Thibodeau didn't eat a lot of carbs last year if I remember well and was training 2 times a day plus cardio like a champ
-
well most studies point to pre workout being better than post workout, however the study i am refering too in particular was post workout. i also made a mistake it was only 400g of pasta :-[ see below:
Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Duclos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C.
Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, CP 6128 Centre-Ville, Montréal, Québec H3C 3J7, Canada.
Abstract
The metabolic response to a 150 or 400 g 13C-labelled pasta meal was studied for 8 h following rest or exercise at low or moderate workload (n 6). Following rest, the 400 g meal totally suppressed fat oxidation (v. 14.1 g following the 150 g meal) and a small amount of glucose was converted into fat (4.6 g), but fat oxidation remained high in subjects who had exercised following both the small (21.8 and 34.1 g) and large meal (14.1 and 32.3 g). Exogenous glucose oxidation was significantly higher in subjects who had remained at rest both following the small (67.6 g v. 60.4 and 51.3 g in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads) and large meal (152.2 v. 123.0 and 127.2 g). Endogenous glucose oxidation was similar in the three groups following the 150 g meal (42.3-58.0 g), but was significantly lower following the 400 g meal in subjects who had exercised at low workload (24.2 v. 72.2 g following rest; and was totally suppressed in those who had exercised at moderate workload. As a consequence, a larger positive glycogen balance was observed in subjects who exercised before the large meal (182.8-205.1 g v. 92.4 g following rest; Total fat oxidation calculated from 08.00 hours to 20.00 hours was similar in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads. These results indicate that: (1) de novo lipogenesis, which plays only a minor role for the disposal of an acute dietary carbohydrate load, is totally suppressed following exercise, even when a very large carbohydrate load is ingested; (2) the reduction in glycogen turnover as well as a preferential conversion of glucose into glycogen are responsible for the increase in glycogen stores following exercise; (3) for a similar energy expenditure, exercise at low workload for a longer period does not favour fat oxidation when the post-exercise period is taken into account.
however i swear i have read one that gave 700g carbs and there was also no fat gain. i'll try to find it and post it.
Interesting stuff for sure! 400g pasta is still a lot, around 250-300g carbs
But such big portions can't be good, massive insulin release, possible tiredness from all the carbs etc. I think it's better to keep carbs between 50-80g per meal...so maybe 80g carbs pwo in the form of glucose pwo shake, then 1½ hour later 80g carbs from rice or pasta...something like that, a more balanced diet
I find that i feel much better if i eat only 50g carbs at breakfast, 80-100g makes me tired. that sounds like a symptom of carb sensitivity, but during the rest of the day i can eat lots of carbs with no problems...I pyramid my carbs, so meal 2 and 3 are the biggest, instead of the ole, "eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a princess" etc...
-
No one is disputing that, but when it comes to bodybuilding or an athletes dropping fat its a whole other world.
-
Cycling carb intake has never made much sense to me, even though I tried it. It was a pain in the ass and the fluctuations in energy on any low carb day really took its toll.
Then again I've never done anabolics or competed at a national level, but if I did, I'd hope I had the genetics where I could lose fat by simply reducing calories and maintain the muscle with an increased protein intake. But there you have it: lots of guys who really aren't cut out to be pros genetically doing all sorts of diets in hopes of changing their genetics. Doesn't work.
And speaking of Aceto...he had Cutler doing it while he was under his guidance. Now he's with Rambod. Does he still cycle carbs?...I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
I tend to agree with the notion that cycling carbs is nothing more than reducing caloric intake, which loses fat. And muscle. Unless you're on drugs. Which makes the whole process easier than otherwise. Genetics, friends. Genetics.
That is all.
-
guys the only thing that determines fat loss is energy deficit:
Fat loss depends on energy deficit only, independently of the method for weight loss.
Strasser B, Spreitzer A, Haber P.
Department of Internal Medicine IV, Division of Sports Medicine, Medical University Vienna, Vienna, Austria. barbara.strasser@trainingstherapie.at
Abstract
BACKGROUND: This study was designed to compare the effects of 2 different but isocaloric fat reduction programs with the same amount of energy deficit - diet alone or diet combined with aerobic training - on body composition, lipid profile and cardiorespiratory fitness in non- or moderately obese women. METHODS: Twenty non- or moderately obese (BMI 24.32 +/- 3.11) females (27.3 +/- 6.6 years) were tested at the beginning and after an 8-week period of a mild hypocaloric diet for the following parameters: (1) body mass and body fat; (2) total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C and triglycerides; (3) lactate (millimol/liter) during submaximal exertion (100 W); (4) heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W), and (5) maximum exercise performance (watt). Subjects were randomly divided into either a diet alone (D, -2,095 +/- 659 kJ/day) or a diet (-1,420 +/- 1,084 kJ/day) plus exercise (DE, three 60-min sessions per week at 60% of VO(2)max or -5,866 kJ/week) group. RESULTS: Body mass and body fat decreased significantly in D (-1.95 +/- 1.13 kg or -1.47 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05) and DE (-2.23 +/- 1.28 kg or -1.59 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05), but there was no significant difference observed between the groups. Statistical analysis revealed no significant changes of total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides and heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W). Lactic acid accumulation during submaximal exertion (100 W) decreased significantly (-0.8 +/- 1.4 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in DE and increased significantly (+0.4 +/- 0.5 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in D. Maximum exercise performance improved significantly (+12.2 +/- 8.8 W, p < 0.05) in DE and did not change significantly in D. CONCLUSIONS: This study showed that independently of the method for weight loss, the negative energy balance alone is responsible for weight reduction. (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.
i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.
QFT
-
1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.
No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.
As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! :)
That's it .
-
It's weird but it seems I can't lose bodyfat on my back without lowering the carbs.
When I do a Keto diet, I get ripped VERY fast, but I end up with no striations what so ever (at 9-10% bf I don't even have a single striation in my chest)
Last year I dieted with Keto, I got to 196 lbs lean (but nowhere near contest shape) when my contest weight the year before was 193 lbs.
So it didn't make any sense to me.
so I got off the diet and added carbs, my weight got up to 218 and I had striation everywhere, while having a smoother look.
then I added insulin and I was 230, 2 weeks later and still the same bf, with some water retention.
but the problem with that is that I was stuck at 9% bf and couldn't go lower because I started the Keto while I was too fat
Keto diet seems to be working for Ben White.
-
Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.
your a fool! ;D do you honestly think im saying that there is no real physiological difference between varying levels of carbs/calories? what was stavios talking about ? how low carbs made him "feel" aka psychological. can low carbs cause a decrease in muscle performance, particularly endurance capacity? duh.. the point is that low carbs doesnt necessarily mean the person is going to be in some kind of mental discomfort (ie lazy, slow, tired, headaches, lighteheadedness, weakness.. all the things that some dieters complain about when going low carb.). yes, lowered carb intake could result in a case of hypoglicemia and thus cause some tired, slow, weak, lightheadedness... but in the mmajority of dieters who are lifting weights and following a decently structured diet will not experience any blood sugar issues when goign low carb.. their bodies are easily able to keep bs stable
-
your a fool! ;D do you honestly think im saying that there is no real physiological difference between varying levels of carbs/calories? what was stavios talking about ? how low carbs made him "feel" aka psychological. can low carbs cause a decrease in muscle performance, particularly endurance capacity? duh.. the point is that low carbs doesnt necessarily mean the person is going to be in some kind of mental discomfort (ie lazy, slow, tired, headaches, lighteheadedness, weakness.. all the things that some dieters complain about when going low carb.). yes, lowered carb intake could result in a case of hypoglicemia and thus cause some tired, slow, weak, lightheadedness... but in the mmajority of dieters who are lifting weights and following a decently structured diet will not experience any blood sugar issues when goign low carb.. their bodies are easily able to keep bs stable
yip - if someone suffers from low blood sugar problems from low carb, they have bigger problems than just having to lose weight.
-
Wow....just fuckin WOW!!
-
Wow....just fuckin WOW!!
i know - who knew there were so many bright and educated people on getbig. :D
coach, i really think its time for you to go back to school and catch up with the advances that have been made in the field of nutrition ;)
-
I want to lose fat, while still eating 1 BIG MAC meal from McDonalds everyday, plus a sundae, and no cardio ever
What do you think!
;D
-
i know - who knew there were so many bright and educated people on getbig. :D
coach, i really think its time for you to go back to school and catch up with the advances that have been made in the field of nutrition ;)
Yes, because everyone I've worked with in the past and present including high level bodybuilders and elite pro athletes just hasn't worked out yet they still come back to me year after thus has made me a poor man and un-qualified on what I do. I'll ask you the same question I asked Tbombz who refuses to answer me. How many bodybuilders and/or athletes have you trained?
-
All carbs all the time. I'm a brickhouse -5'10" / 175 lbs.
-
Keto diet seems to be working for Ben White.
yeah but you black guys have round muscles even if you are flat !
my muscle bellies suck ass, I need to be full or else I look like a spagetti
-
Yes, because everyone I've worked with in the past and present including high level bodybuilders and elite pro athletes just hasn't worked out yet they still come back to me year after thus has made me a poor man and un-qualified on what I do. I'll ask you the same question I asked Tbombz who refuses to answer me. How many bodybuilders and/or athletes have you trained?
Haha hey Coach wednesday night I am doing a "boot camp" with a strongman at the gym, he makes some kind of routines with flipping tires and shit like that.
Football players and some of my friend who do MMA do this a lot.
I will get killed haha ;D
First time I will train like an athlete in years ;D
-
Haha hey Coach wednesday night I am doing a "boot camp" with a strongman at the gym, he makes some kind of routines with flipping tires and shit like that.
Football players and some of my friend who do MMA do this a lot.
I will get killed haha ;D
First time I will train like an athlete in years ;D
It's tough but fun, you'll have a blast.
-
It's tough but fun, you'll have a blast.
the fuckers are saying I will quit but I am too pride for that.
8)
-
to the original question - yes carb cycling is simply calorie cycling. This is assuming you do not up protein or fat amounts to compensate - but why bother ?
all fat loss boils down to reducing energy calories via reduced diet or more exercise.
To those of you that claim you need to take carbs down to zero or 20g etc to get shredded - lower your protein intake.
you are not finally losing fat because of some magic no/low carbs provides, you are losing fat because your calories are in deficit.
you are forgetting that any excess protein is broken down into energy by the body - So if your protein intake is too high you would indeed have to reduce carbs and/or fats to lower overall calorie intake.
you would be better lowering your protein intake and increasing carbs - this would give you more energy, more cellular hydration, and ultimately more control over your diet.
don't take my word for it - science backs this advice 100%
Great post!
Science backs this up and I've experienced the same.
-
Yes, because everyone I've worked with in the past and present including high level bodybuilders and elite pro athletes just hasn't worked out yet they still come back to me year after thus has made me a poor man and un-qualified on what I do. I'll ask you the same question I asked Tbombz who refuses to answer me. How many bodybuilders and/or athletes have you trained?
who is the bigger fool ? the coach that thinks he's right or the athletes that think they are right to pay the coach that thinks he's right ?
years ago top NFL, NBA, NBL, OLYMPIC coaches used to tell their athletes not to drink water before/during a game and that weight lifting makes them slow and clumsy.
were they successful ? some yes, however even a broken clock is right twice a day ;)
were they correct ? no
hope this helps.
-
i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.
Does this mean you are not overweight anymore? Serious question...
-
Don't think for one second I do things by yesterdays standard, I'm faaaaaaaaar from yesterdays standards!
-
guys the only thing that determines fat loss is energy deficit:
Fat loss depends on energy deficit only, independently of the method for weight loss.
Strasser B, Spreitzer A, Haber P.
Department of Internal Medicine IV, Division of Sports Medicine, Medical University Vienna, Vienna, Austria. barbara.strasser@trainingstherapie.at
Abstract
BACKGROUND: This study was designed to compare the effects of 2 different but isocaloric fat reduction programs with the same amount of energy deficit - diet alone or diet combined with aerobic training - on body composition, lipid profile and cardiorespiratory fitness in non- or moderately obese women. METHODS: Twenty non- or moderately obese (BMI 24.32 +/- 3.11) females (27.3 +/- 6.6 years) were tested at the beginning and after an 8-week period of a mild hypocaloric diet for the following parameters: (1) body mass and body fat; (2) total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C and triglycerides; (3) lactate (millimol/liter) during submaximal exertion (100 W); (4) heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W), and (5) maximum exercise performance (watt). Subjects were randomly divided into either a diet alone (D, -2,095 +/- 659 kJ/day) or a diet (-1,420 +/- 1,084 kJ/day) plus exercise (DE, three 60-min sessions per week at 60% of VO(2)max or -5,866 kJ/week) group. RESULTS: Body mass and body fat decreased significantly in D (-1.95 +/- 1.13 kg or -1.47 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05) and DE (-2.23 +/- 1.28 kg or -1.59 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05), but there was no significant difference observed between the groups. Statistical analysis revealed no significant changes of total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides and heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W). Lactic acid accumulation during submaximal exertion (100 W) decreased significantly (-0.8 +/- 1.4 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in DE and increased significantly (+0.4 +/- 0.5 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in D. Maximum exercise performance improved significantly (+12.2 +/- 8.8 W, p < 0.05) in DE and did not change significantly in D. CONCLUSIONS: This study showed that independently of the method for weight loss, the negative energy balance alone is responsible for weight reduction. (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.
i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.
Caloric deficit is obviously going to lead to weight loss, body composition is another thing. There are numerous factors such as inflammation, hormonal milieu etc to consider. Eating all fish during contest prep in a natural is surely a bad idea for muscle retention, however, eating egg yolks will lead to more muscle. Also, protein is the hardest of the macros to convert to fat via gluconeogenesis. It is required for repair, enzymes everything really, it is preferentially not burned.
the key concept is not in dispute, when dieting for fat loss for vanity it is different, when dieting for performance it is different, when dieting for health it is different.
The level your looking at is to basic.
-
I told him that in so many words but he wants to try and prove some kind of point, not sure what that point might be!
-
500cal burger
500cal fries
350cal sundae
light soda
= 1350 cals
Go for it bro :D
This could actually work LOL :-)
-
To answer your original question stavy, yes carb cycling is just simply a form of calorie cycling.
-
I told him that in so many words but he wants to try and prove some kind of point, not sure what that point might be!
Just a theoretical question Coach. Is it possible to diet for a bodybuilding contest without getting hungry, tired, etc. I mean if I eat the "right" types of calories and "time the nutrients right" they will go into muscle and never to fat and wont inhibit fat loss, then maybe I can even eat above maintenance? I mean protein doesn't go into fat for example so surely I can have 2lbs of Connelly's original Met-Rx with 2lbs of salmon a day and still burn fat?
Nah, the fact of the matter is you're going to be in significant deficit and hungry all the time, and you will suffer to get in ripped condition. Calories do matter, no matter what composition they have! :D
None of this means protein doesn't matter, to just eat twizzlers or whatever. Just that calorie reduction is part of every diet. I believe this is the point by and large.
-
Stavios,
I think the Keto diet can be awesome and get you shredded........BUT! u have to know when to add the carbs in at certain times to make sure you keep glycogen levels full and can get your body accustomed to digesting and assimilating carbohydrates, so u can actually fill out when u eat em.
-
Stavios,
I think the Keto diet can be awesome and get you shredded........BUT! u have to know when to add the carbs in at certain times to make sure you keep glycogen levels full and can get your body accustomed to digesting and assimilating carbohydrates, so u can actually fill out when u eat em.
Exactly have a huge cheat meal once a week while on keto at least 500grams carbs.
-
Stavios,
I think the Keto diet can be awesome and get you shredded........BUT! u have to know when to add the carbs in at certain times to make sure you keep glycogen levels full and can get your body accustomed to digesting and assimilating carbohydrates, so u can actually fill out when u eat em.
I highly doubt that the body forgets how to digest and assimilate carbs no matter how long you omit them from your diet.
-
I highly doubt that the body forgets how to digest and assimilate carbs no matter how long you omit them from your diet.
you'd be surprised.
have u ever gone weeks without eating carbs then suddenly added them back in?? if you have you'd notice that when u eat the carbs you get bloated and gassy and uncomfortable. the reason for this is because your body stops producing the enzymes to break down the sugars.
just go a few weeks without eating carbs then have a pizza and some sandwhiches then tell me how u feel :)
-
Stavios,
I think the Keto diet can be awesome and get you shredded........BUT! u have to know when to add the carbs in at certain times to make sure you keep glycogen levels full and can get your body accustomed to digesting and assimilating carbohydrates, so u can actually fill out when u eat em.
I actually love the keto diet.
I have used Palumbo's one in early 2007 to flush most of my fat before switching to a carb-protein diet again 3 months out of the show.
I used it again last year but my biggest mistake, just like this year, is that I started the diet at 18% bf at least !!
I know, stupid, but I always get caught up in the "numbers" in the off-season.
So last year I started with the Keto diet, t3, clen, gh + LOT of cardio
All at once.
I got to 10% bf SUPER quick.
but then I was fucked and I couldn't get any lower so I had to quit the diet.
This year I read some stuff that Chris Aceto wrote about Troy Alves's diet, he said that in order to get in spectacular condition, one must get to 8-9%bf without doing much in term of drugs, cardio or extreme dieting.
So I want to do this nice and slow, and then I'll get fucking ripped 8)
well, I'll try.
I have never been fucking ripped, plus I always have a fat face just like Kuclo
-
I actually love the keto diet.
I have used Palumbo's one in early 2007 to flush most of my fat before switching to a carb-protein diet again 3 months out of the show.
I used it again last year but my biggest mistake, just like this year, is that I started the diet at 18% bf at least !!
I know, stupid, but I always get caught up in the "numbers" in the off-season.
So last year I started with the Keto diet, t3, clen, gh + LOT of cardio
All at once.
I got to 10% bf SUPER quick.
but then I was fucked and I couldn't get any lower so I had to quit the diet.
This year I read some stuff that Chris Aceto wrote about Troy Alves's diet, he said that in order to get in spectacular condition, one must get to 8-9%bf without doing much in term of drugs, cardio or extreme dieting.
So I want to do this nice and slow, and then I'll get fucking ripped 8)
well, I'll try.
I have never been fucking ripped, plus I always have a fat face just like Kuclo
He also says a lot of interesting stuff like take a couple of weeks off from dieting and cardio (without getting fatter) and then restart the diet...to get out of the rot/stop going sideways. I think that is very important because most ppl just slash their calories even lower and add even more cardio.
-
He also says a lot of interesting stuff like take a couple of weeks off from dieting and cardio (without getting fatter) and then restart the diet...to get out of the rot/stop going sideways. I think that is very important because most ppl just slash their calories even lower and add even more cardio.
Dude knows his shit, just look at Troy Alves's condition lately or Edouardo Correa :o
-
you'd be surprised.
have u ever gone weeks without eating carbs then suddenly added them back in?? if you have you'd notice that when u eat the carbs you get bloated and gassy and uncomfortable. the reason for this is because your body stops producing the enzymes to break down the sugars.
just go a few weeks without eating carbs then have a pizza and some sandwhiches then tell me how u feel :)
Yes I`ve done it,and I agree with your post only because of the carb choices you listed.
Instead try a bagel,cup of rice,and a potato...........no gassy issues or digestive overload problems.
Binging out on pizza will do it any and everytime even without dieting.
-
Caloric deficit is obviously going to lead to weight loss, body composition is another thing. There are numerous factors such as inflammation, hormonal milieu etc to consider. Eating all fish during contest prep in a natural is surely a bad idea for muscle retention, however, eating egg yolks will lead to more muscle. Also, protein is the hardest of the macros to convert to fat via gluconeogenesis. It is required for repair, enzymes everything really, it is preferentially not burned.
the key concept is not in dispute, when dieting for fat loss for vanity it is different, when dieting for performance it is different, when dieting for health it is different.
The level your looking at is to basic.
actually fat loss IS very basic, its simply the law of thermodynamics at work.
regarding your comments:
body recomposition is irrelevant if protein intake is kept at 1g per lb during the calorie reduction ( or perhaps even raised slightly). Fat loss and lean mass retention differences are not statistically significant - regardless if the calories come from fat or carbs - metabolic ward studies prove this conclusively.
i also don't know why you felt the need to explain to me how protein is used by the body - have i given you some impression i did not know this stuff ;D
for proof : you are wrong yourself however as protein is not converted to fat, it is converted to glucose, which is then either burned off or converted to fat depending on your muscle/liver glycogen levels/ calorie use for the day.
and even though you are correct in your statement that it is the hardest macro metabolically for the body to convert to energy - your body will not know or feel the difference. ( unless we are talking about a zero carb/zero fat diet).
as studies are now showing that any protein over 20-30g every 4-5 hours are burned off as energy. Do you feel different when you eat over or under this amount ? weather it is with fat/carbs or both? i thought not.
-
I told him that in so many words but he wants to try and prove some kind of point, not sure what that point might be!
my point is that at the end of the day you are using sub optimal/outdated diet methods.
you are reducing calories but your understanding of how this works and your psudo mystical theorys as to the magical effects of high fat/high protein/low carb are nonsense.
There is no need to suffer.
-
I actually love the keto diet.
I have used Palumbo's one in early 2007 to flush most of my fat before switching to a carb-protein diet again 3 months out of the show.
I used it again last year but my biggest mistake, just like this year, is that I started the diet at 18% bf at least !!
I know, stupid, but I always get caught up in the "numbers" in the off-season.
So last year I started with the Keto diet, t3, clen, gh + LOT of cardio
All at once.
I got to 10% bf SUPER quick.
but then I was fucked and I couldn't get any lower so I had to quit the diet.
This year I read some stuff that Chris Aceto wrote about Troy Alves's diet, he said that in order to get in spectacular condition, one must get to 8-9%bf without doing much in term of drugs, cardio or extreme dieting.
So I want to do this nice and slow, and then I'll get fucking ripped 8)
well, I'll try.
I have never been fucking ripped, plus I always have a fat face just like Kuclo
\\
When i want to strip some bf quick, i use the keto diet as well, its great for getting the bloat and a few lbs of fat off real quick.
But what i think works is a bit of both worlds type approach.
I talked with toney freeman after the 2008 olympia when he looked fantastic. And I asked him if he really worked with palumbo and if he did his diet.
He said NO! He did use dave before, but dave had him doing the same diet as a 202 competitor so he dropped him like a bad habit. Anways, he said what he did was, he dieted for 10 or 12 weeks total ( i cant remember ) but he said the first quarter of the diet was keto, then after he dropped the initial water/bloat and fat, he added some carbs back in ( cycled them high/low..whatever ) then as the contest got closer like 4 weeks out he went back to a keto approach to get the last bit of fat off.
IMO this would be a great way to lose the fat, stay energized, and keep your fullness/harness throughout.
I know disgusted does something similar and it works.
-
Funny fatpanda, I asked you and tbombz the same question yet neither one have answered me. If you want to get down to it, it all works but you don't design the same eating program for an bodybuiilder, athlete or fat soccer mom.
-
Exactly Coach
We, bodybuilders, are athletes that need much more carbs than the other because of the brutality and intensity of our workouts 8)
-
Funny fatpanda, I asked you and tbombz the same question yet neither one have answered me. If you want to get down to it, it all works but you don't design the same eating program for an bodybuiilder, athlete or fat soccer mom.
this thread is about fat loss
the principles remain the same - reduction is energy macros and/or increased energy output = fat loss.
-
Funny fatpanda, I asked you and tbombz the same question yet neither one have answered me. If you want to get down to it, it all works but you don't design the same eating program for an bodybuiilder, athlete or fat soccer mom.
Exactly....and if its so simple and brainless, why does 'panda still lament his physical condition?
-
Exactly....and if its so simple and brainless, why does 'panda still lament his physical condition?
any proof for your claims twink ? no thought not.
when you actually have more muscle than a half eaten chicken leg you can come back and we can talk.
until then........