Is "carb cycling" only calories cycling ?

[lesaucer]

doing progym cup? watch out brother 

[Bobby]

Dude, try like 20-30g of fat, two cardio sessions (45 mins Low intensity in the AM, and 20 minutes High Intensity in the PM), plus 2-3 hours of weight training!  I really don't think thats the reason!

sounds like you do too much, your body is used to it...you have two options, increase cardio even more(not good) or try take a week off from cardio and then restart it. and once a day is enough

[Coach is Back!]

most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. 

im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.

Because it's all psychological, right?

Tbombz serious question, How many bodybuilders have you trained for shows and how many athletes have you trained?

[Bobby]

most people just let themselves feel like shit because they think they are supposed to. 

im dieting down right now too. i eat zero carbs and fats in 4 of my 5 meals. in addition to the five meals i have one pre workout meal, but its just a couple pieces of fruit, so i dont consider it a meal. my one meal with carbs/fats is post workout and i get about 100-300g carbs depending on how hungry i am. each meal gets 40-50g protein from either chicken egg white or lean beef.

wow 300g carbs in one meal
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?

[Fatpanda]

to the original question - yes carb cycling is simply calorie cycling. This is assuming you do not up protein or fat amounts to compensate - but why bother ?

all fat loss boils down to reducing energy calories via reduced diet or more exercise.

To those of you that claim you need to take carbs down to zero or 20g etc to get shredded - lower your protein intake.

you are not finally losing fat because of some magic no/low carbs provides, you are losing fat because your calories are in deficit.

you are forgetting that any excess protein is broken down into energy by the body - So if your protein intake is too high you would indeed have to reduce carbs and/or fats to lower overall calorie intake.

you would be better lowering your protein intake and increasing carbs - this would give you more energy, more cellular hydration, and ultimately more control over your diet.

don't take my word for it - science backs this advice 100%

[Fatpanda]

wow 300g carbs in one meal
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?

studies show the body can absorb 700g of pasta after a workout with 0g converted to bodyfat. 

also over the course of a day 300g of carbs is only 1200cals - not much really, and also the best possible time to take them in too.

[Bobby]

to the original question - yes carb cycling is simply calorie cycling. This is assuming you do not up protein or fat amounts to compensate - but why bother ?

all fat loss boils down to reducing energy calories via reduced diet or more exercise.

To those of you that claim you need to take carbs down to zero or 20g etc to get shredded - lower your protein intake.

you are not finally losing fat because of some magic no/low carbs provides, you are losing fat because your calories are in deficit.

you are forgetting that any excess protein is broken down into energy by the body - So if your protein intake is too high you would indeed have to reduce carbs and/or fats to lower overall calorie intake.

you would be better lowering your protein intake and increasing carbs - this would give you more energy, more cellular hydration, and ultimately more control over your diet.

don't take my word for it - science backs this advice 100%

agreed! some ppl eat way too much protein. There is no need for 500g P a day...maybe if you're 250+ lean and juiced to the tits, but even then it's high.

studies show the body can absorb 700g of pasta after a workout with 0g converted to bodyfat. 

also over the course of a day 300g of carbs is only 1200cals - not much really, and also the best possible time to take them in too.

I know it can absorb a lot but that is just ridiculous?!?! 700g pasta really? that's like 450-500g carbs...
what about "preworkout meal is more important than postworkout meal" ? i would at least get 50g before...

[tbombz]

wow 300g carbs in one meal
what is the reason for taking it all at once, as opposed to spreading it out over 3 meals?

i like to eat whatever i feel like on a daily basis. so i limit it to one meal. the rest of the day i eat protein and vegetables. except pre workout i have some fruit.  works real well. people overthink diet. and yes, coach, its all psychological.

[Fatpanda]

well most studies point to pre workout being better than post workout, however the study i am refering too in particular was post workout. i also made a mistake it was only 400g of pasta    see below:



Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Duclos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C.

Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, CP 6128 Centre-Ville, Montréal, Québec H3C 3J7, Canada.
Abstract
The metabolic response to a 150 or 400 g 13C-labelled pasta meal was studied for 8 h following rest or exercise at low or moderate workload (n 6). Following rest, the 400 g meal totally suppressed fat oxidation (v. 14.1 g following the 150 g meal) and a small amount of glucose was converted into fat (4.6 g), but fat oxidation remained high in subjects who had exercised following both the small (21.8 and 34.1 g) and large meal (14.1 and 32.3 g). Exogenous glucose oxidation was significantly higher in subjects who had remained at rest both following the small (67.6 g v. 60.4 and 51.3 g in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads) and large meal (152.2 v. 123.0 and 127.2 g). Endogenous glucose oxidation was similar in the three groups following the 150 g meal (42.3-58.0 g), but was significantly lower following the 400 g meal in subjects who had exercised at low workload (24.2 v. 72.2 g following rest; and was totally suppressed in those who had exercised at moderate workload. As a consequence, a larger positive glycogen balance was observed in subjects who exercised before the large meal (182.8-205.1 g v. 92.4 g following rest; Total fat oxidation calculated from 08.00 hours to 20.00 hours was similar in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads. These results indicate that: (1) de novo lipogenesis, which plays only a minor role for the disposal of an acute dietary carbohydrate load, is totally suppressed following exercise, even when a very large carbohydrate load is ingested; (2) the reduction in glycogen turnover as well as a preferential conversion of glucose into glycogen are responsible for the increase in glycogen stores following exercise; (3) for a similar energy expenditure, exercise at low workload for a longer period does not favour fat oxidation when the post-exercise period is taken into account.


however i swear i have read one that gave 700g carbs and there was also no fat gain. i'll try to find it and post it.

[PJim]

Just eat a balanced diet.

[wes]

1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.

No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.

As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! 

[Fatpanda]

another that shows 5g of pasta per kg of bodyweight post workout - again no fat storage. this is around double most peoples carb intake for any average day.

Metabolic response to a large starch meal after rest and exercise: comparison between men and women.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Charpentier S, Lavoie C.

Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, Centre-Ville, Montréal, Quebec, Canada.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Net whole-body and hepatic de novo lipogenesis could be more active in women than in men, but no comparison has been made between men and women in the two phases of the ovarian cycle after ingestion of a large carbohydrate meal. OBJECTIVE: We hypothesized that net whole-body de novo lipogenesis could be larger in women than men, and that glycogen and fat balance could be, respectively, lower and higher, following a large pasta meal ingested after rest or exercise. DESIGN: The metabolic response to a pasta meal (5 g dry weight/kg body mass) was studied in six men and six women (matched for age and BMI) in the follicular and luteal phases, following rest or exercise (90 min at 50% VO(2max)). Protein, glucose, and fat oxidation, and net whole-body de novo lipogenesis were computed for 10 h following ingestion of the meal using indirect respiratory calorimetry corrected for urea excretion. RESULTS: No net whole-body de novo lipogenesis was observed in any group in any situation (postrest and postexercise). When the meal was ingested following exercise, fat oxidation was significantly higher and glucose oxidation was significantly lower (P<0.05) than following the period of rest, and in a given experimental situation, the respective contributions of protein, fat, and glucose oxidation to the energy yield were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle. CONCLUSIONS: The contribution of substrate oxidation to the energy expenditure as well as fat and glycogen balance, and the effect of a previous exercise period, were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle following ingestion of the large carbohydrate meal.



here  is the definative text on de novo lipogenisis ( carb conversion to bodyfat ):

http://www.portalsaudebrasil.com/artigospsb/fisiolog160.pdf

in it you can read about the 700g carbs per day,  it was does in a study by Acheson. It took 3 days of eating 700g of carbs before any fat storage took place. Even then it was very very low.

its a great text if you have the time.

[Meso_z]

lol @ the "up the fats" guys. 

stavios, just have your carbs steady throu the week and have a day where you "up" them, or simply have a "cheat meal".

[Coach is Back!]

Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.

[Stavios]

1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.

No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.

As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! 

I know it's not rocket science, I'm just being impatient here  

And I don't want to use all the tools at the beginning of the diet like last year, cause when you get to a certain point where you don't lose bodyfat anymore, you are fucked.

and yes, I should not have gotten 50 lbs overweight in the first place once again  

[Fatpanda]

guys the only thing that determines fat loss is energy deficit:

Fat loss depends on energy deficit only, independently of the method for weight loss.
Strasser B, Spreitzer A, Haber P.

Department of Internal Medicine IV, Division of Sports Medicine, Medical University Vienna, Vienna, Austria. barbara.strasser@trainingstherapie.at
Abstract
BACKGROUND: This study was designed to compare the effects of 2 different but isocaloric fat reduction programs with the same amount of energy deficit - diet alone or diet combined with aerobic training - on body composition, lipid profile and cardiorespiratory fitness in non- or moderately obese women. METHODS: Twenty non- or moderately obese (BMI 24.32 +/- 3.11) females (27.3 +/- 6.6 years) were tested at the beginning and after an 8-week period of a mild hypocaloric diet for the following parameters: (1) body mass and body fat; (2) total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C and triglycerides; (3) lactate (millimol/liter) during submaximal exertion (100 W); (4) heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W), and (5) maximum exercise performance (watt). Subjects were randomly divided into either a diet alone (D, -2,095 +/- 659 kJ/day) or a diet (-1,420 +/- 1,084 kJ/day) plus exercise (DE, three 60-min sessions per week at 60% of VO(2)max or -5,866 kJ/week) group. RESULTS: Body mass and body fat decreased significantly in D (-1.95 +/- 1.13 kg or -1.47 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05) and DE (-2.23 +/- 1.28 kg or -1.59 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05), but there was no significant difference observed between the groups. Statistical analysis revealed no significant changes of total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides and heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W). Lactic acid accumulation during submaximal exertion (100 W) decreased significantly (-0.8 +/- 1.4 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in DE and increased significantly (+0.4 +/- 0.5 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in D. Maximum exercise performance improved significantly (+12.2 +/- 8.8 W, p < 0.05) in DE and did not change significantly in D. CONCLUSIONS: This study showed that independently of the method for weight loss, the negative energy balance alone is responsible for weight reduction. (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.


i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.

[Stavios]

Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.

Well personnally I have never been "that" tired from being low carbs.

Even that one time I did 2 weeks of protein only , I felt just like I always do when I eat carbs.

I never got the "I am too tired to complete my training" I see some bodybuilders have a month out from a show.

My friend who is trained by Christian Thibodeau didn't eat a lot of carbs last year if I remember well and was training 2 times a day plus cardio like a champ

[Bobby]

well most studies point to pre workout being better than post workout, however the study i am refering too in particular was post workout. i also made a mistake it was only 400g of pasta    see below:



Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man.
Folch N, Péronnet F, Massicotte D, Duclos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C.

Département de kinésiologie, Université de Montréal, CP 6128 Centre-Ville, Montréal, Québec H3C 3J7, Canada.
Abstract
The metabolic response to a 150 or 400 g 13C-labelled pasta meal was studied for 8 h following rest or exercise at low or moderate workload (n 6). Following rest, the 400 g meal totally suppressed fat oxidation (v. 14.1 g following the 150 g meal) and a small amount of glucose was converted into fat (4.6 g), but fat oxidation remained high in subjects who had exercised following both the small (21.8 and 34.1 g) and large meal (14.1 and 32.3 g). Exogenous glucose oxidation was significantly higher in subjects who had remained at rest both following the small (67.6 g v. 60.4 and 51.3 g in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads) and large meal (152.2 v. 123.0 and 127.2 g). Endogenous glucose oxidation was similar in the three groups following the 150 g meal (42.3-58.0 g), but was significantly lower following the 400 g meal in subjects who had exercised at low workload (24.2 v. 72.2 g following rest; and was totally suppressed in those who had exercised at moderate workload. As a consequence, a larger positive glycogen balance was observed in subjects who exercised before the large meal (182.8-205.1 g v. 92.4 g following rest; Total fat oxidation calculated from 08.00 hours to 20.00 hours was similar in subjects who exercised at low and moderate workloads. These results indicate that: (1) de novo lipogenesis, which plays only a minor role for the disposal of an acute dietary carbohydrate load, is totally suppressed following exercise, even when a very large carbohydrate load is ingested; (2) the reduction in glycogen turnover as well as a preferential conversion of glucose into glycogen are responsible for the increase in glycogen stores following exercise; (3) for a similar energy expenditure, exercise at low workload for a longer period does not favour fat oxidation when the post-exercise period is taken into account.


however i swear i have read one that gave 700g carbs and there was also no fat gain. i'll try to find it and post it.

Interesting stuff for sure! 400g pasta is still a lot, around 250-300g carbs
But such big portions can't be good, massive insulin release, possible tiredness from all the carbs etc. I think it's better to keep carbs between 50-80g per meal...so maybe 80g carbs pwo in the form of glucose pwo shake, then 1½ hour later 80g carbs from rice or pasta...something like that, a more balanced diet

I find that i feel much better if i eat only 50g carbs at breakfast, 80-100g makes me tired. that sounds like a symptom of carb sensitivity, but during the rest of the day i can eat lots of carbs with no problems...I pyramid my carbs, so meal 2 and 3 are the biggest, instead of the ole, "eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a princess" etc...

[Coach is Back!]

No one is disputing that, but when it comes to bodybuilding or an athletes dropping fat its a whole other world.

[bic_staedtler]

Cycling carb intake has never made much sense to me, even though I tried it.  It was a pain in the ass and the fluctuations in energy on any low carb day really took its toll.

Then again I've never done anabolics or competed at a national level, but if I did, I'd hope I had the genetics where I could lose fat by simply reducing calories and maintain the muscle with an increased protein intake.  But there you have it: lots of guys who really aren't cut out to be pros genetically doing all sorts of diets in hopes of changing their genetics.  Doesn't work.

And speaking of Aceto...he had Cutler doing it while he was under his guidance.  Now he's with Rambod.  Does he still cycle carbs?...I don't think so, but I could be wrong. 

I tend to agree with the notion that cycling carbs is nothing more than reducing caloric intake, which loses fat.  And muscle.  Unless you're on drugs.  Which makes the whole process easier than otherwise.  Genetics, friends.  Genetics.

That is all.

[wavelength]

guys the only thing that determines fat loss is energy deficit:

Fat loss depends on energy deficit only, independently of the method for weight loss.
Strasser B, Spreitzer A, Haber P.

Department of Internal Medicine IV, Division of Sports Medicine, Medical University Vienna, Vienna, Austria. barbara.strasser@trainingstherapie.at
Abstract
BACKGROUND: This study was designed to compare the effects of 2 different but isocaloric fat reduction programs with the same amount of energy deficit - diet alone or diet combined with aerobic training - on body composition, lipid profile and cardiorespiratory fitness in non- or moderately obese women. METHODS: Twenty non- or moderately obese (BMI 24.32 +/- 3.11) females (27.3 +/- 6.6 years) were tested at the beginning and after an 8-week period of a mild hypocaloric diet for the following parameters: (1) body mass and body fat; (2) total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C and triglycerides; (3) lactate (millimol/liter) during submaximal exertion (100 W); (4) heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W), and (5) maximum exercise performance (watt). Subjects were randomly divided into either a diet alone (D, -2,095 +/- 659 kJ/day) or a diet (-1,420 +/- 1,084 kJ/day) plus exercise (DE, three 60-min sessions per week at 60% of VO(2)max or -5,866 kJ/week) group. RESULTS: Body mass and body fat decreased significantly in D (-1.95 +/- 1.13 kg or -1.47 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05) and DE (-2.23 +/- 1.28 kg or -1.59 +/- 0.87%; p < 0.05), but there was no significant difference observed between the groups. Statistical analysis revealed no significant changes of total cholesterol, HDL-C, LDL-C, triglycerides and heart rate during submaximal exertion (100 W). Lactic acid accumulation during submaximal exertion (100 W) decreased significantly (-0.8 +/- 1.4 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in DE and increased significantly (+0.4 +/- 0.5 mmol/l, p < 0.05) in D. Maximum exercise performance improved significantly (+12.2 +/- 8.8 W, p < 0.05) in DE and did not change significantly in D. CONCLUSIONS: This study showed that independently of the method for weight loss, the negative energy balance alone is responsible for weight reduction. (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.


i.e. as wavelength, adonis, myself and many more keep saying - reduce calories regardless if it is from carbs or fats and you will lose bodyfat.

QFT

[che]

1.Keep protein high
2.Keep fats low
3.Keep carbs moderate to low and cycle them.

No need to alter protein and fat intake on low carb days..........it`s a diet bro,not a feast/smorgasborg.

As far as Tbomz is concerned,I`ll listen to his "advices" on getting lean when I see his abs!! 

That's it .

[MattT]

It's weird but it seems I can't lose bodyfat on my back without lowering the carbs.

When I do a Keto diet, I get ripped VERY fast, but I end up with no striations what so ever (at 9-10% bf I don't even have a single striation in my chest)

Last year I dieted with Keto, I got to 196 lbs lean (but nowhere near contest shape) when my contest weight the year before was 193 lbs.
So it didn't make any sense to me.

so I got off the diet and added carbs, my weight got up to 218 and I had striation everywhere, while having a smoother look.

then I added insulin and I was 230, 2 weeks later and still the same bf, with some water retention.

but the problem with that is that I was stuck at 9% bf and couldn't go lower because I started the Keto while I was too fat

Keto diet seems to be working for Ben White.

[tbombz]

Tbomz lost ALL crediblity when he said being on low carbs was psychological, doesn't matter whether I see his abs or not. He knows just enough to be dangerous.

your a fool!  do you honestly think im saying that there is no real physiological difference between varying levels of carbs/calories?  what was stavios talking about ? how low carbs made him "feel" aka psychological. can low carbs cause a decrease in muscle performance, particularly endurance capacity? duh.. the point is that low carbs doesnt necessarily mean the person is going to be in some kind of mental discomfort (ie lazy, slow, tired, headaches, lighteheadedness, weakness.. all the things that some dieters complain about when going low carb.). yes, lowered carb intake could result in a case of hypoglicemia and thus cause some tired, slow, weak, lightheadedness...   but in the mmajority of dieters who are lifting weights and following a decently structured diet will not experience any blood sugar issues when goign low carb.. their bodies are easily able to keep bs stable

[Fatpanda]

your a fool!  do you honestly think im saying that there is no real physiological difference between varying levels of carbs/calories?  what was stavios talking about ? how low carbs made him "feel" aka psychological. can low carbs cause a decrease in muscle performance, particularly endurance capacity? duh.. the point is that low carbs doesnt necessarily mean the person is going to be in some kind of mental discomfort (ie lazy, slow, tired, headaches, lighteheadedness, weakness.. all the things that some dieters complain about when going low carb.). yes, lowered carb intake could result in a case of hypoglicemia and thus cause some tired, slow, weak, lightheadedness...   but in the mmajority of dieters who are lifting weights and following a decently structured diet will not experience any blood sugar issues when goign low carb.. their bodies are easily able to keep bs stable

yip - if someone suffers from low blood sugar problems from low carb, they have bigger problems than just having to lose weight.