Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on June 13, 2014, 07:51:36 AM
-
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/mark-tapson/miss-usas-self-defense-empowerment
>:(
-
For some reason, feminists who hold beauty pageants in contempt were watching the Miss USA Pageant the other night when Miss Nevada Nia Sanchez, a 4th-degree black belt in taekwondo, responded to a question about sexual assaults on campus. She had the temerity to recommend that women learn to defend themselves, and the resulting outrage reveals just how badly modern feminism is serving today’s young women.
The 24-year-old Miss Sanchez was asked why a “horrific epidemic” of campus sexual assaults has been “swept under the rug for so long” and what colleges can do to combat it. The question seemed designed to steer her toward discussing the “rape culture” in which feminists believe we live, but Miss Sanchez didn’t take the bait. Instead, she replied that perhaps colleges themselves have suppressed this reputation-damaging information, and that one thing women can do is be prepared to fight back: “I learned from a young age that you need to be confident and be able to defend yourself, and that’s something that we should start to implement for a lot of women.”
This message of self-empowerment for women elicited a roar of approval from the audience, but didn’t sit well with feminists at home. They took to Twitter to express their horror and disappointment at what they considered, incredibly, to be “victim-shaming.” Here are some tweeted gems of self-delusion collected at Twitchy.com:
I’m sorry, but women shouldn’t need to take self defense classes to protect themselves from rape #MissUSA
Miss Nevada, who just reinforced victim-blaming rape culture to millions of viewers, is crowned #MissUSA 2014
Miss Nevada was asked about rape at colleges and answered that women need to learn to defend themselves… OR MEN COULD JUST NOT RAPE.
Not happy w/ Miss Nevada’s answer that to stop rape we should teach women to defend themselves…Why don’t we teach men to not rape?
Miss Nevada described how individuals need to protect themselves from rape, instead of teaching others not to rape. Stop the victim blaming.
Sick of hearing “women need to learn selfdefense from sexual violence” We need a culture we don’t have to defend ourselves from
Women shouldn’t need to learn to protect themselves against rape #missnevada educate and respect yourself as a woman #rapeculture
Really Miss Nevada? We should combat rape with self defense? Rape culture wins again
Hey Miss Nevada- how about instead of woman learning to protect themselves, men learn to not rape women?
Miss Nevada: How is it a woman’s responsibility to learn to protect herself from rape? #MissUSA2014 #getaburkatoo
Where is the logic in such inane comments? Miss Sanchez trained in taekwondo for 12 years but doesn’t respect herself as a woman? Acquiring a 4th degree black belt is equivalent to wearing a burqa? Refusing to be a victim is the same as blaming the victim? Men should just be taught not to rape? The sheer brainwashed density of Miss Sanchez’s young critics – mostly female – is alarming confirmation that modern feminism is not about empowering women but about ensuring their victim status and attacking men instead.
What is rape culture? It is the feminist theory that sexual assault becomes normalized when a culture condones the objectification and trivialization of women. You almost cannot read anything about today’s strained standoff between the sexes without encountering the accusation that America has a rape culture and that all men are literal or latent rapists who need to be deprogrammed out of their acculturated misogyny.
Americans don’t have a rape culture. We have a culture that considers rape a heinous violent crime. We have a culture so unforgiving of rape that even false accusations of it ruin men’s lives. We don’t “teach” men to rape, and in any case the vast majority of American males would never even consider such a depraved act, unlike what misandrists insist.
According to 2013 Bureau of Justice statistics, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations in this country declined 58% from 1995 to 2010. To cite this is certainly not to trivialize the terrible violation that is rape; nor is it to suggest that anything more than zero sexual assaults is acceptable. It is only to emphasize that not only are we not enmeshed in a rape culture, but things seem to be improving significantly.
However, there are violent deviants who will and do rape, and the world will never rid itself of that minority of evil men. That’s just the way the world is and always has been. For feminists to say that women shouldn’t have to live in a world where the threat of assault exists is like saying that we shouldn’t have to live in a world where murder and theft exist. The reality is that we do live in such a world, so you had better be prepared to do more than just soil yourself to ward off attackers, as some unhelpful feminists suggest. To believe that we can simply teach that rape is unconscionable – which we already do – and that the crime will then disappear is a childish and dangerous utopian fantasy.
I have two very young daughters. If the feminist solution to empowering them is to disempower them, to keep them unprepared to resist assault, and to suggest they be patient until utopia arrives rather than confront reality head-on, then I won’t be raising feminists. I’ll be raising strong, confident young women like Nia Sanchez with the dignity and skills to refuse to be victims.
Freedom Center pamphlets now available on Kindle: Click here.
Subscribe to Frontpage’s TV show, The Glazov Gang, and LIKE it on Facebook.
-
Since most radical feminists and liberal cu ntrags look like thugs and beasts themselves they are rarely the target of sex offenses anyway.
-
I would have thought feminists would be in favor of self-reliance.
-
I would have thought feminists would be in favor of self-reliance.
they want to take power away from men. they are not interested in empowering themselves. the modern feminist movement is about hurting men. not helping women.
-
In liberal ideology, letting yourself be victimized is 'morally superior' to defending yourself with force.
-
they want to take power away from men. they are not interested in empowering themselves. the modern feminist movement is about hurting men. not helping women.
This. It's not about female equality anymore; it's about female supremacy.
You don't need to "teach men not to rape", because most men are decent human beings with the common sense that dictates that rape is wrong. How about we teach young women not to cry rape whenever they feel guilty about a one-night stand?
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/flooded-by-false-rape-allegations/ (http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/flooded-by-false-rape-allegations/)
-
Feh!! It's stoopid how many people just use this topic to recite their pet opinion about rape.
Fuck me, wasn't the contestant simply asked about what colleges should do about the apparently too frequently occurring phenomenon of rapes on campus as opposed to sweeping the crimes under the rug?
Her answer of basically, "I don't know but I've personally tried to learn to defend myself" is OK, but it's easy to see why many women will be unhappy with that answer.
For the record, btw, I agree that the phenomenon of women screwing men (figuratively, haha) by falsely accusing them of rape is a problem these days. I just don't know that it's something I'd bring up so quickly when asked about why colleges shouldn't just be covering up the occurrence of rapes on campus.
-
Feh!! It's stoopid how many people just use this topic to recite their pet opinion about rape.
Fuck me, wasn't the contestant simply asked about what colleges should do about the apparently too frequently occurring phenomenon of rapes on campus as opposed to sweeping the crimes under the rug?
Her answer of basically, "I don't know but I've personally tried to learn to defend myself" is OK, but it's easy to see why many women will be unhappy with that answer.
For the record, btw, I agree that the phenomenon of women screwing men (figuratively, haha) by falsely accusing them of rape is a problem these days. I just don't know that it's something I'd bring up so quickly when asked about why colleges shouldn't just be covering up the occurrence of rapes on campus.
although I agree with what you're saying i'm going to play devils advocate here and ask you what your answer would have been.
-
also someone please define "rape culture" for me.
-
although I agree with what you're saying i'm going to play devils advocate here and ask you what your answer would have been.
Not sure. Maybe some tired shit about sunlight being the best disinfectant?
BTW, it occurs to me that predicting how feminists are likely to react to anything said by a beauty pageant contestant is pretty much like predicting how SC will react to anything said by Obama...
(I guess I should point out that I'm talking about disapproval...and not gay slurs, lol.)
-
I do find that feminists in general seem to want to put all the responsibility to fix all of their woes on males, whiles simultaneously blaming us for all their problems.
Kind of ironic.
Women suggests females take responsibilty for their own defense, thereby empowering themselves? Horrible, why cant we teach men to just not rape?! Cause, you know, most parents are raising their children and teaching them that rape is acceptable.
Dumbass bitches.
-
Not sure. Maybe some tired shit about sunlight being the best disinfectant?
BTW, it occurs to me that predicting how feminists are likely to react to anything said by a beauty pageant contestant is pretty much like predicting how SC will react to anything said by Obama...
(I guess I should point out that I'm talking about disapproval...and not gay slurs, lol.)
Hardy Har Har. Good one sport. ::)
-
Hardy Har Har. Good one sport. ::)
Whatever, ya twink/fag/bottom-boy. lol
-
and someone please define what the fuck "rape culture" is.
-
Not sure. Maybe some tired shit about sunlight being the best disinfectant?
BTW, it occurs to me that predicting how feminists are likely to react to anything said by a beauty pageant contestant is pretty much like predicting how SC will react to anything said by Obama...
(I guess I should point out that I'm talking about disapproval...and not gay slurs, lol.)
There is nothing that Fagbama says or does that I have ever seen as warranting approval
-
Not sure. Maybe some tired shit about sunlight being the best disinfectant?
BTW, it occurs to me that predicting how feminists are likely to react to anything said by a beauty pageant contestant is pretty much like predicting how SC will react to anything said by Obama...
(I guess I should point out that I'm talking about disapproval...and not gay slurs, lol.)
basically there is no good answer. the only answer that would even begin to appease the feminists would be something along the lines of that white men have cultivated a culture of rape and we need to make it easier for these men to be prosecuted, which means that the onus needs to be on the boy to prove that he didn't rape her as opposed to the other way around because of "victim blaming".
-
There is nothing that Fagbama says or does that I have ever seen as warranting approval
You have to make every thread you create about Obama don't you.... ;)
-
You have to make every thread you create about Obama don't you.... ;)
Was responding to the comment above referencing me.
;)
-
and someone please define what the fuck "rape culture" is.
They cant.
liberals do not have actual data/facts to support their positions, only catch phrases, fuzzy numbers, and emotion.
-
They cant.
liberals do not have actual data/facts to support their positions, only catch phrases, fuzzy numbers, and emotion.
It essentially means that men aren't instantly conviced of rape as soon as a woman feels taken advantage of. Oh, and that they should be able to walk around buck ass naked with "I take cock in the ass" tattoos showing without worrying about the scumbags of society possibly getting the wrong impression and "taking advantage of her" when she's drunk and slobbing on their knob.
What it really means, is that femininazis want to be able to do whatever the fuck they want, when they want, and take zero responsibilities for the consequences.
Walking 3/4 naked through a shitty area of town and talking loudly to every man that will listen about how you love swallowing cum? Sure, no problem. Get raped by shitbags that take what you say literally? Goddammit why can't men just not rape!
-
It essentially means that men aren't instantly conviced of rape as soon as a woman feels taken advantage of. Oh, and that they should be able to walk around buck ass naked with "I take cock in the ass" tattoos showing without worrying about the scumbags of society possibly getting the wrong impression and "taking advantage of her" when she's drunk and slobbing on their knob.
What it really means, is that femininazis want to be able to do whatever the fuck they want, when they want, and take zero responsibilities for the consequences.
Walking 3/4 naked through a shitty area of town and talking loudly to every man that will listen about how you love swallowing cum? Sure, no problem. Get raped by shitbags that take what you say literally? Goddammit why can't men just not rape!
Lol
-
I doubt see how the numbers in this graphic can be exactly correct, but it's probably worth looking at anyway:
(http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rapist_visualization_03.jpg)
-
I doubt see how the numbers in this graphic can be exactly correct, but it's probably worth looking at anyway:
(http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rapist_visualization_03.jpg)
I highly doubt this is accurate. First none of the terms are defined. What does falsely accused mean? Does this mean someone who was convicted and later exonerated in someway? Does this number include rapes that where reported to authorities who then refused to prosecute because of lack of evidence or other mitigating circumstances such as an unreliable claimant who has a history of false rape allegations?
The entire graph is misleading because in order for it to have any weight you must presuppose that anyone accused of rape is guilty from the beginning. For example, for the difference in percentages of accused versus those who are found guilty to be a sign of injustice, you must assume that every person accused of raped who went to trial and didn't face jail time got away with rape. Maybe the evidence wasn't sufficient or they just plain didnt do it.
As for unreported, how do you prove the veracity of the persons claim? What is the context in which these unreported and reported claims were made?
-
I doubt see how the numbers in this graphic can be exactly correct, but it's probably worth looking at anyway:
(http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rapist_visualization_03.jpg)
Here's how the site attempts to explain it, displayed as it was taken:
*
The fear of getting falsely accused of rape just doesn’t compare to the fear of an actual rapist getting away with his or her crime. Statistics from Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010 and FBI reports. NOTE (2/6/13): As so many people continue to visit this site and share this convo-graphic, we’ve updated this post to include the context from this post.
As a wife, mom, survivor, and regular person until Monday morning, I am overwhelmed and astounded by the reaction and response to the “Truth About False Accusation” infographic, and encouraged by the dialogue that has emerged as a result of it. Thank you to each and every person who shared it, debated it, loved it, and hated it.
We accept and encourage debate on this and any future infographics released by The Enliven Project. Given the massive amount of media coverage and online discussion about it, I wanted to provide some additional – and more well-thought out – context to the purpose of the graphic and The Enliven Project, as well as to address a bit of criticism about the data we used.
The purpose of this graphic is to compare (primarily men’s) fear of being falsely accused of being a rapist to the many challenges around reporting, prosecuting, and punishing rapists.
Two key figures drive that point home:
*A reporting rate of 10%
*A false reporting rate of 2%
The other decision we made was to present data that fell within documented ranges, rather than reflect the findings of a particular report, because of the inherent challenge in collecting data on this issue. Said another way: at the moment, an argument could be made that every source is flawed in some way. The reason we pursued a composite approach instead of relying on one study was exactly to spark discussion about the underlying data and definitions, and – perhaps most importantly – the current challenges in data collection.
For example – here are a handful of challenges that we encountered while putting together the infographic and, as a result, some limitations of the infographic itself:
*The federal data provides arrest, conviction, and incarceration rates on forcible rape only, NOT other forms of sexual violence.
*Until 2012, the federal definition of rape was limited to penetration of a vagina by a penis. Therefore, 100% of rapists would have to be men.
*The difference between a false report (how data is counted and being falsely accused (the fear at the individual level). Lonesway, Archembault, and Lisak, the authors of the article from The National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women, use the following definition: A false report is a report of a sexual assault that did not happen (i.e., it was not completed or attempted).” The report goes on to discuss the challenges of defining whether the assault in fact didn’t happen or whether investigators or prosecutors decide that it did not happen based “simply on their own views of the victim, the suspect, and their credibility.” Individuals who are falsely accused of rape outside of the justice system would not be counted in this figure.
Despite these admitted flaws, here’s what’s not disputable:
*Rape and sexual violence continue to impact men, women, and children across the country and around the world.
*Fewer than 100% of rapes are reported to the police because social, emotional, and legal barriers still exist.
*Sexual violence has an enormous emotional and financial cost to our society, and many bystanders don’t even know they are being affected by it when in reality, they are.
*Individuals, foundations, employers, and the government do not invest deeply enough in awareness, prevention, intervention and recovery.
*Our justice system isn’t perfect. Sometimes innocent people are charged. And sometime guilty people go free. That doesn’t mean that men and women aren’t being raped and sexually assaulted. It means there are improvements that can be made all around.
Finally, there is something that this graphic does NOT represent. And that is the impact of false accusation on an individual’s life. The purpose of the graphic was to put the FEAR of false accusation in perspective, not to discount the very real impact that a false report or false accusation has on someone’s life.
We certainly plan future infographics and have learned from this overwhelming and humbling response that visualizing these issues can be quite powerful, and careful sourcing and stating assumptions up front is also important. Our primary goal – and that of The Enliven Project as a whole – was to start a conversation that desperately needs to be had in our country. We’ll let others decide whether or not we were successful on this front. However, in the future, the kind of analysis and background information provided here and below will be made available at the time the infographic is released so that there are no misconceptions about our intent and message.
Breakdown of Graphic and Statistics
1,000 Rapists (technically 1,000 rapes as pointed out by Slate, a distinction we missed in an effort to bring some reality to the numbers.)
Of those 1,000 rapes, we applied a 10% reporting rate (100)
*Source: http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/without-consent-20061231.pdf
Page 8: “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”
*Source:http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245 (2011 Criminal Victimization Survey): Reported to the police (US): 27% in 2011, 49% in 2010
Of those 100 reported rapes, we show 30 faced trial (this includes those that were jailed). This is 30%. Faced trial, for the purpose of this graphic, uses composite data reflecting the terms prosecution, arrested, and faced trial.
*RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 46 rapes, 9 get prosecuted. This is 19.5%.
*Tjaden, P., & Thoennes, N. (2006). Extent, nature and consequences of rape victimization: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice. – 37% of reported rapes are prosecuted
*Patterson, D., & Campbell, R. (2010). Why rape survivors participate in the criminal justice system. Journal of Community Psychology, 38(2), 191-205. – 14-18% of reported rapes lead to prosecution
*http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances - 40% clearance rate in 2010 (arrested or cleared by exceptional means)
Of the 100 rapes brought to trial, 10 are jailed. This is 10%. Or, of the 30 rapes prosecuted, 10 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st229?pg=11Table A-4 in 1997, Probability of prison for rape is 9%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc06.pdf
page 11 in 2006: 62% of felony rape defendants are convicted, 50% of a felony
page 12 in 2006: most severe sentence of convicted offenders
For rape: 80% incarcerated. Combining these, 0.62 * 0.8 = 0.496 (49.6%)
*When considered as a portion of prosecuted rapes that are jailed: RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 9 prosecuted rapes, 3 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
Of the 100 rapes reported, 2 are false accusations. The 2% false accusation rate was applied only to the number of reported rapes.
*Source: http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf page 2: “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.”
From "The Enliven Project"
-
Here's how the site attempts to explain it, displayed as it was taken:
*
The fear of getting falsely accused of rape just doesn’t compare to the fear of an actual rapist getting away with his or her crime. Statistics from Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010 and FBI reports. NOTE (2/6/13): As so many people continue to visit this site and share this convo-graphic, we’ve updated this post to include the context from this post.
As a wife, mom, survivor, and regular person until Monday morning, I am overwhelmed and astounded by the reaction and response to the “Truth About False Accusation” infographic, and encouraged by the dialogue that has emerged as a result of it. Thank you to each and every person who shared it, debated it, loved it, and hated it.
We accept and encourage debate on this and any future infographics released by The Enliven Project. Given the massive amount of media coverage and online discussion about it, I wanted to provide some additional – and more well-thought out – context to the purpose of the graphic and The Enliven Project, as well as to address a bit of criticism about the data we used.
The purpose of this graphic is to compare (primarily men’s) fear of being falsely accused of being a rapist to the many challenges around reporting, prosecuting, and punishing rapists.
Two key figures drive that point home:
*A reporting rate of 10%
*A false reporting rate of 2%
The other decision we made was to present data that fell within documented ranges, rather than reflect the findings of a particular report, because of the inherent challenge in collecting data on this issue. Said another way: at the moment, an argument could be made that every source is flawed in some way. The reason we pursued a composite approach instead of relying on one study was exactly to spark discussion about the underlying data and definitions, and – perhaps most importantly – the current challenges in data collection.
For example – here are a handful of challenges that we encountered while putting together the infographic and, as a result, some limitations of the infographic itself:
*The federal data provides arrest, conviction, and incarceration rates on forcible rape only, NOT other forms of sexual violence.
*Until 2012, the federal definition of rape was limited to penetration of a vagina by a penis. Therefore, 100% of rapists would have to be men.
*The difference between a false report (how data is counted and being falsely accused (the fear at the individual level). Lonesway, Archembault, and Lisak, the authors of the article from The National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women, use the following definition: A false report is a report of a sexual assault that did not happen (i.e., it was not completed or attempted).” The report goes on to discuss the challenges of defining whether the assault in fact didn’t happen or whether investigators or prosecutors decide that it did not happen based “simply on their own views of the victim, the suspect, and their credibility.” Individuals who are falsely accused of rape outside of the justice system would not be counted in this figure.
Despite these admitted flaws, here’s what’s not disputable:
*Rape and sexual violence continue to impact men, women, and children across the country and around the world.
*Fewer than 100% of rapes are reported to the police because social, emotional, and legal barriers still exist.
*Sexual violence has an enormous emotional and financial cost to our society, and many bystanders don’t even know they are being affected by it when in reality, they are.
*Individuals, foundations, employers, and the government do not invest deeply enough in awareness, prevention, intervention and recovery.
*Our justice system isn’t perfect. Sometimes innocent people are charged. And sometime guilty people go free. That doesn’t mean that men and women aren’t being raped and sexually assaulted. It means there are improvements that can be made all around.
Finally, there is something that this graphic does NOT represent. And that is the impact of false accusation on an individual’s life. The purpose of the graphic was to put the FEAR of false accusation in perspective, not to discount the very real impact that a false report or false accusation has on someone’s life.
We certainly plan future infographics and have learned from this overwhelming and humbling response that visualizing these issues can be quite powerful, and careful sourcing and stating assumptions up front is also important. Our primary goal – and that of The Enliven Project as a whole – was to start a conversation that desperately needs to be had in our country. We’ll let others decide whether or not we were successful on this front. However, in the future, the kind of analysis and background information provided here and below will be made available at the time the infographic is released so that there are no misconceptions about our intent and message.
Breakdown of Graphic and Statistics
1,000 Rapists (technically 1,000 rapes as pointed out by Slate, a distinction we missed in an effort to bring some reality to the numbers.)
Of those 1,000 rapes, we applied a 10% reporting rate (100)
*Source: http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/without-consent-20061231.pdf
Page 8: “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”
*Source:http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245 (2011 Criminal Victimization Survey): Reported to the police (US): 27% in 2011, 49% in 2010
Of those 100 reported rapes, we show 30 faced trial (this includes those that were jailed). This is 30%. Faced trial, for the purpose of this graphic, uses composite data reflecting the terms prosecution, arrested, and faced trial.
*RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 46 rapes, 9 get prosecuted. This is 19.5%.
*Tjaden, P., & Thoennes, N. (2006). Extent, nature and consequences of rape victimization: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice. – 37% of reported rapes are prosecuted
*Patterson, D., & Campbell, R. (2010). Why rape survivors participate in the criminal justice system. Journal of Community Psychology, 38(2), 191-205. – 14-18% of reported rapes lead to prosecution
*http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances - 40% clearance rate in 2010 (arrested or cleared by exceptional means)
Of the 100 rapes brought to trial, 10 are jailed. This is 10%. Or, of the 30 rapes prosecuted, 10 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st229?pg=11Table A-4 in 1997, Probability of prison for rape is 9%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc06.pdf
page 11 in 2006: 62% of felony rape defendants are convicted, 50% of a felony
page 12 in 2006: most severe sentence of convicted offenders
For rape: 80% incarcerated. Combining these, 0.62 * 0.8 = 0.496 (49.6%)
*When considered as a portion of prosecuted rapes that are jailed: RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 9 prosecuted rapes, 3 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
Of the 100 rapes reported, 2 are false accusations. The 2% false accusation rate was applied only to the number of reported rapes.
*Source: http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf page 2: “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.”
From "The Enliven Project"
Thought-provoking stuff. Thanks.
(I'll resist the urge to insert some kind of "resuming my search for some good humiliation porn" comment here, lol)
-
Here's how the site attempts to explain it, displayed as it was taken:
*
The fear of getting falsely accused of rape just doesn’t compare to the fear of an actual rapist getting away with his or her crime. Statistics from Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010 and FBI reports. NOTE (2/6/13): As so many people continue to visit this site and share this convo-graphic, we’ve updated this post to include the context from this post.
As a wife, mom, survivor, and regular person until Monday morning, I am overwhelmed and astounded by the reaction and response to the “Truth About False Accusation” infographic, and encouraged by the dialogue that has emerged as a result of it. Thank you to each and every person who shared it, debated it, loved it, and hated it.
We accept and encourage debate on this and any future infographics released by The Enliven Project. Given the massive amount of media coverage and online discussion about it, I wanted to provide some additional – and more well-thought out – context to the purpose of the graphic and The Enliven Project, as well as to address a bit of criticism about the data we used.
The purpose of this graphic is to compare (primarily men’s) fear of being falsely accused of being a rapist to the many challenges around reporting, prosecuting, and punishing rapists.
Two key figures drive that point home:
*A reporting rate of 10%
*A false reporting rate of 2%
The other decision we made was to present data that fell within documented ranges, rather than reflect the findings of a particular report, because of the inherent challenge in collecting data on this issue. Said another way: at the moment, an argument could be made that every source is flawed in some way. The reason we pursued a composite approach instead of relying on one study was exactly to spark discussion about the underlying data and definitions, and – perhaps most importantly – the current challenges in data collection.
For example – here are a handful of challenges that we encountered while putting together the infographic and, as a result, some limitations of the infographic itself:
*The federal data provides arrest, conviction, and incarceration rates on forcible rape only, NOT other forms of sexual violence.
*Until 2012, the federal definition of rape was limited to penetration of a vagina by a penis. Therefore, 100% of rapists would have to be men.
*The difference between a false report (how data is counted and being falsely accused (the fear at the individual level). Lonesway, Archembault, and Lisak, the authors of the article from The National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women, use the following definition: A false report is a report of a sexual assault that did not happen (i.e., it was not completed or attempted).” The report goes on to discuss the challenges of defining whether the assault in fact didn’t happen or whether investigators or prosecutors decide that it did not happen based “simply on their own views of the victim, the suspect, and their credibility.” Individuals who are falsely accused of rape outside of the justice system would not be counted in this figure.
Despite these admitted flaws, here’s what’s not disputable:
*Rape and sexual violence continue to impact men, women, and children across the country and around the world.
*Fewer than 100% of rapes are reported to the police because social, emotional, and legal barriers still exist.
*Sexual violence has an enormous emotional and financial cost to our society, and many bystanders don’t even know they are being affected by it when in reality, they are.
*Individuals, foundations, employers, and the government do not invest deeply enough in awareness, prevention, intervention and recovery.
*Our justice system isn’t perfect. Sometimes innocent people are charged. And sometime guilty people go free. That doesn’t mean that men and women aren’t being raped and sexually assaulted. It means there are improvements that can be made all around.
Finally, there is something that this graphic does NOT represent. And that is the impact of false accusation on an individual’s life. The purpose of the graphic was to put the FEAR of false accusation in perspective, not to discount the very real impact that a false report or false accusation has on someone’s life.
We certainly plan future infographics and have learned from this overwhelming and humbling response that visualizing these issues can be quite powerful, and careful sourcing and stating assumptions up front is also important. Our primary goal – and that of The Enliven Project as a whole – was to start a conversation that desperately needs to be had in our country. We’ll let others decide whether or not we were successful on this front. However, in the future, the kind of analysis and background information provided here and below will be made available at the time the infographic is released so that there are no misconceptions about our intent and message.
Breakdown of Graphic and Statistics
1,000 Rapists (technically 1,000 rapes as pointed out by Slate, a distinction we missed in an effort to bring some reality to the numbers.)
Of those 1,000 rapes, we applied a 10% reporting rate (100)
*Source: http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/without-consent-20061231.pdf
Page 8: “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”
*Source:http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245 (2011 Criminal Victimization Survey): Reported to the police (US): 27% in 2011, 49% in 2010
Of those 100 reported rapes, we show 30 faced trial (this includes those that were jailed). This is 30%. Faced trial, for the purpose of this graphic, uses composite data reflecting the terms prosecution, arrested, and faced trial.
*RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 46 rapes, 9 get prosecuted. This is 19.5%.
*Tjaden, P., & Thoennes, N. (2006). Extent, nature and consequences of rape victimization: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice. – 37% of reported rapes are prosecuted
*Patterson, D., & Campbell, R. (2010). Why rape survivors participate in the criminal justice system. Journal of Community Psychology, 38(2), 191-205. – 14-18% of reported rapes lead to prosecution
*http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances - 40% clearance rate in 2010 (arrested or cleared by exceptional means)
Of the 100 rapes brought to trial, 10 are jailed. This is 10%. Or, of the 30 rapes prosecuted, 10 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st229?pg=11Table A-4 in 1997, Probability of prison for rape is 9%.
*When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc06.pdf
page 11 in 2006: 62% of felony rape defendants are convicted, 50% of a felony
page 12 in 2006: most severe sentence of convicted offenders
For rape: 80% incarcerated. Combining these, 0.62 * 0.8 = 0.496 (49.6%)
*When considered as a portion of prosecuted rapes that are jailed: RAINN (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 9 prosecuted rapes, 3 are jailed. This is 33.3%.
Of the 100 rapes reported, 2 are false accusations. The 2% false accusation rate was applied only to the number of reported rapes.
*Source: http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf page 2: “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.”
From "The Enliven Project"
All the same problems I mentioned apply to the statistics listed above. Exactly the same. For the 10% reporting rate to mean anything you must assume all or a large majority of unreported cases are in fact true. You must also assume the those individuals who are accused of rape, go to trial and arent convicted are in fact guilty. Without doing this these numbers are meaningless.
If you applied the number of individuals who are found not guilty of rape at trial to the number of falsely accused the number goes way up. The number goes up further when you include false allegations made in unreported cases. Notice they list the unreported and reported as rape not as allegations of rape. The implication being the accusation is inherently true.
-
-
Yeah, guys. I wouldn't rely on anything that's related to the source of that so-called infographic.
-
All the same problems I mentioned apply to the statistics listed above. Exactly the same. For the 10% reporting rate to mean anything you must assume all or a large majority of unreported cases are in fact true. You must also assume the those individuals who are accused of rape, go to trial and arent convicted are in fact guilty. Without doing this these numbers are meaningless.
If you applied the number of individuals who are found not guilty of rape at trial to the number of falsely accused the number goes way up. The number goes up further when you include false allegations made in unreported cases. Notice they list the unreported and reported as rape not as allegations of rape. The implication being the accusation is inherently true.
Uhh, you're not playing fair here. You are using terms like "meaningless" far too easily.
Anyway, it seems like the main point of the graphic was to contrast the frequency of rapes with the frequency of rape allegations that are false with the clear conclusion that the former outnumbers the latter by a near-ridiculous margin. You wouldn't disagree with that, would you? For me, this passes the smell test.
BTW, the article that Jack T. dug up seems pretty even-handed to me. I like how they made a point to say (something like) that that though their graphic showed the relative infrequency of false rape allegations, it in no way represented the damage that such allegations could do to someone who was falsely accused. That admission scored points with me.
-
Uhh, you're not playing fair here. You are using terms like "meaningless" far too easily.
Anyway, it seems like the main point of the graphic was to contrast the frequency of rapes with the frequency of rape allegations that are false with the clear conclusion that the former outnumbers the latter by a near-ridiculous margin. You wouldn't disagree with that, would you? For me, this passes the smell test.
BTW, the article that Jack T. dug up seems pretty even-handed to me. I like how they made a point to say (something like) that that though their graphic showed the relative infrequency of false rape allegations, it in no way represented the damage that such allegations could do to someone who was falsely accused. That admission scored points with me.
I am playing fair. I'm being more fair and honest than the makers of the graph because I don't have an agenda. The graph becomes meaningless because the makers of the graph are trying to associate numbers that may not have much relation to each other as it concerns the conclusion being drawn.
The intent of the graph is to conflate the issue and lead the reader to the exact conclusion you came to.
The implication being pushed in the graph is that there is an injustice and rapists are not receiving justice at the rate at which they are committing rape. There is no evidence for this.
A common mistake people make when looking at these types of graphs is to extrapolate unnecessarily and make conclusions the information does not support. You see this most frequently with crimes stats. Because a particular group are incarcerated at a higher rate there must be injustice. Rarely do they bother to research further.
Unreported rapes are essentially hearsay and shouldn't even be listed because they can't be substantiated. It's essentially one persons word against another. I can accuse anyone of anything but that doesn't mean there is any truth to the allegation. The graph also gives no information as to why a portion of reported rapes did not go to trial. The reader is left to conclude the reason is something other than the innocence of the accused.
Falsely accused is another unclear term. I would imagine that many individuals accused of rape never go to trial because of mitigating circumstance such as lack of evidence or the authorities doubt the claim of the accuser. How does one determine a rape allegation is false. Does this require a trial, an admission from the accuser or the prosecution not pursuing charges?
-
I feel like the makes of the graph are assuming that anytime any female thinks the word 'rape', it means they were raped. Ive known girls that have told friends they were 'raped' because the friends dodnt like the guy they hooked up with.
'Oh he raped me, id never fuck him'
-
I feel like the makes of the graph are assuming that anytime any female thinks the word 'rape', it means they were raped. Ive known girls that have told friends they were 'raped' because the friends dodnt like the guy they hooked up with.
'Oh he raped me, id never fuck him'
Thats exactly the point. Noticed they never use the term alleged rape, only rape. The implication being that all accusations of rape are in fact true. The graph carries no weight unless you make that assumption
-
I am playing fair. I'm being more fair and honest than the makers of the graph because I don't have an agenda. The graph becomes meaningless because the makers of the graph are trying to associate numbers that may not have much relation to each other as it concerns the conclusion being drawn.
The intent of the graph is to conflate the issue and lead the reader to the exact conclusion you came to.
The implication being pushed in the graph is that there is an injustice and rapists are not receiving justice at the rate at which they are committing rape. There is no evidence for this.
A common mistake people make when looking at these types of graphs is to extrapolate unnecessarily and make conclusions the information does not support. You see this most frequently with crimes stats. Because a particular group are incarcerated at a higher rate there must be injustice. Rarely do they bother to research further.
Unreported rapes are essentially hearsay and shouldn't even be listed because they can't be substantiated. It's essentially one persons word against another. I can accuse anyone of anything but that doesn't mean there is any truth to the allegation. The graph also gives no information as to why a portion of reported rapes did not go to trial. The reader is left to conclude the reason is something other than the innocence of the accused.
Falsely accused is another unclear term. I would imagine that many individuals accused of rape never go to trial because of mitigating circumstance such as lack of evidence or the authorities doubt the claim of the accuser. How does one determine a rape allegation is false. Does this require a trial, an admission from the accuser or the prosecution not pursuing charges?
Holy fuck, really?
There is no evidence that substantiates the claim that rapists are not "receiving justice" at the same rate as their committing rapes? Holy shit, what do you call evidence? I guess you think most women are, what?, exaggerating? Or maybe your definition of "rape" is extremely narrow? Be nice for you to explain here.
Direct questions here, then.
Do you think most rapes go unreported or not?
Do you think that sometimes women will try to accuse a guy of rape (by making the allegation to a 3rd party) when the sex was consensual or not?
Do you think the frequency of those two situations above are comparable (as in close to the same number of occurrences) or not?
Look, like you sort of said, any kind of he said/she said situation (that isn't recorded on video) cannot really be substantiated 100% can it? I can understand why this might mean that it's impossible to prosecute all rapists, but you seem to be saying more that this; You seem to be saying that this means that it's doubtful that any rape took place. And this is seems to be at odds with what the common consensus.
Last question: Of the women that you know IRL, do their ideas differ much from yours when it comes to the supposed incidence of unreported rapes?
-
Holy fuck, really?
There is no evidence that substantiates the claim that rapists are not "receiving justice" at the same rate as their committing rapes? Holy shit, what do you call evidence? I guess you think most women are, what?, exaggerating? Or maybe your definition of "rape" is extremely narrow? Be nice for you to explain here.[/quote]
Evidence is more than one persons word against another.
[/quote]Direct questions here, then.
Do you think most rapes go unreported or not? [/quote]
You can't make an accurate determination considering they are unreported. Where is the evidence that the vast majority of cases are unreported? Where is the evidence that the vast majority of unreported rapes are legitimate? And since these rapes are neither confirmed as true or false its disingenuous to refer to unreported rapes as anything other than allegations.
[/quote]Do you think that sometimes women will try to accuse a guy of rape (by making the allegation to a 3rd party) when the sex was consensual or not? [/quote]
People do all sorts of things for a multitude of reasons. I would assume that it is within the realm of possibility that people will make false claims about a lot of things. Don't they already?
[/quote]Do you think the frequency of those two situations above are comparable (as in close to the same number of occurrences) or not?[/quote]
I do not. There is no evidence to support that assumption. They are connected in so far as they are intended by the graph maker to be in order to make a point.
[/quote]Look, like you sort of said, any kind of he said/she said situation (that isn't recorded on video) cannot really be substantiated 100% can it? I can understand why this might mean that it's impossible to prosecute all rapists, but you seem to be saying more that this; You seem to be saying that this means that it's doubtful that any rape took place. And this is seems to be at odds with what the common consensus.[/quote]
I never made any claims about whether a rape did or did not occur nor did I mention anything about video. What I am saying is that you don't know and therefore shouldn't be using those cases to substantiate any claims about the prevalence of rape, reported or unreported.
Last question: Of the women that you know IRL, do their ideas differ much from yours when it comes to the supposed incidence of unreported rapes?
I generally don't have conversations about rape.
-
Holy fuck, really?
There is no evidence that substantiates the claim that rapists are not "receiving justice" at the same rate as their committing rapes? Holy shit, what do you call evidence? I guess you think most women are, what?, exaggerating? Or maybe your definition of "rape" is extremely narrow? Be nice for you to explain here.
Evidence is more than one persons word against another.
Direct questions here, then.
Do you think most rapes go unreported or not?
You can't make an accurate determination considering they are unreported. Where is the evidence that the vast majority of cases are unreported? Where is the evidence that the vast majority of unreported rapes are legitimate? And since these rapes are neither confirmed as true or false its disingenuous to refer to unreported rapes as anything other than allegations.
Do you think that sometimes women will try to accuse a guy of rape (by making the allegation to a 3rd party) when the sex was consensual or not?
People do all sorts of things for a multitude of reasons. I would assume that it is within the realm of possibility that people will make false claims about a lot of things. Don't they already?
Do you think the frequency of those two situations above are comparable (as in close to the same number of occurrences) or not?
I do not. There is no evidence to support that assumption. They are connected in so far as they are intended by the graph maker to be in order to make a point.
Look, like you sort of said, any kind of he said/she said situation (that isn't recorded on video) cannot really be substantiated 100% can it? I can understand why this might mean that it's impossible to prosecute all rapists, but you seem to be saying more that this; You seem to be saying that this means that it's doubtful that any rape took place. And this is seems to be at odds with what the common consensus.
I never made any claims about whether a rape did or did not occur nor did I mention anything about video. What I am saying is that you don't know and therefore shouldn't be using those cases to substantiate any claims about the prevalence of rape, reported or unreported.
Last question: Of the women that you know IRL, do their ideas differ much from yours when it comes to the supposed incidence of unreported rapes?
I generally don't have conversations about rape.
I'm gonna differ with you about what one can say with confidence about something has occurred or not even given the lack of 100% proof. It's 2014, mang. Polling and statistics seem to be fairly developed disciplines nowadays.
In this day and age I believe it IS possible to make statements that have at least a passing acquaintance with accuracy in regard to the prevalence of unreported rapes as long the sample sizes are big enough and the means for procuring such samples are scientifically valid. That you are not personally aware of such "evidence" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You can quibble with accuracy but it seems reasonable to expect that using scientifically valid statistical means you'd be able to ascertain results that would be accurate within a range small enough to be useful for doing something like comparing the incidence of unreported rapes to unfounded rape allegations.
Seems like what you'd like to do is just bemoan the fact that exact numbers aren't available and then dismiss the subject...but I could be wrong about that.
-
He's right... hes absolutely right. That article is nothing but assumptions.
-
He's right... hes absolutely right. That article is nothing but assumptions.
Yeah, true.
Clearly, all rapes are reported and all rapists are brought to justice.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
-
Yeah, true.
Clearly, all rapes are reported and all rapists are brought to justice.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
Yeah, cause thats totally what was insinuated. ::)
I'm sure there are rapes that aren't reported, but that bullshit makes it seem like there is 100 rapes for every 1 that gets reported. Get a grip. ::)
-
Yeah, cause thats totally what was insinuated. ::)
I'm sure there are rapes that aren't reported, but that bullshit makes it seem like there is 100 rapes for every 1 that gets reported. Get a grip. ::)
Looks like 10 unreported for every 1 reported to me.
By exaggerating the ratio of alleged unreported rapes to reported ones, what were you insinuating? ;D
Sorry to offend the pro-rape crowd. Jeez.
-
Looks like 10 unreported for every 1 reported to me.
By exaggerating the ratio of alleged unreported rapes to reported ones, what were you insinuating? ;D
Sorry to offend the pro-rape crowd. Jeez.
Pro rape crowd?
Jesus christ dude give me a break. I'm sorry we don't automatically assume that every woman that has ever thought about the word "rape" means that they were raped, beyond a shadow of a doubt, and didn't report it, and that we don't automatically believe fuzzy math that will quantify a statistic that, by its very nature, is supposedly NOT FUCKING REPORTED. ::)
-
Pro rape crowd?
Jesus christ dude.
Kidding!
I'm just getting a little bored with this topic -- I'm not a rapist nor am I likely to ever be either raped or accused of being a rapist so ...
Besides, my mind is still occupied by ho-ho's and even though I'm at home, I'm pretty sure the only "snacks" we have on hand right now are nasty shit like my Thai wife's shrimp-flavored chips...FML.
-
Looks like 10 unreported for every 1 reported to me.
By exaggerating the ratio of alleged unreported rapes to reported ones, what were you insinuating? ;D
Sorry to offend the pro-rape crowd. Jeez.
You keep saying unreported rapes. You're assuming there is veracity to these claims by referring to them in definitive terms like unreported rapes. They really are unsubstantiated allegations. And there is no way to substantiate these allegations.
-
Those who falsely accuse a person of rape should face the maximum sentence a rapist would get along with all the consequences of course (having to register as sex offender etc.).
-
You keep saying unreported rapes. You're assuming there is veracity to these claims by referring to them in definitive terms like unreported rapes. They really are unsubstantiated allegations. And there is no way to substantiate these allegations.
What's wrong with the term?
Doesn't it just mean a rape where the victim did not go to the cops?
Why the insistence on substantiation before it's ok to call it rape and not an alleged rape?
Would you do that with an unreported (to the cops) burglary?
For you to insist on "allegation" language seems to imply that you think false rape accusations are somewhat common.
Come to think about it, I really don't get it unless your default position is that women are lying when they say they've been raped. (And if you think this, you are smoking crack.)
C'mon, you must have a feeling about this one way or another: Whaddaya think is more common, a woman not reporting a rape or a woman alleging rape when one did not occur?
-
Pro rape crowd?
Jesus christ dude give me a break. I'm sorry we don't automatically assume that every woman that has ever thought about the word "rape" means that they were raped, beyond a shadow of a doubt, and didn't report it, and that we don't automatically believe fuzzy math that will quantify a statistic that, by its very nature, is supposedly NOT FUCKING REPORTED. ::)
Not reported to police.
Not COMPLETELY unreported (and pulled from the victims' minds via, what?, Vulcan mind-meld?)
What's hard to understand about this?
-
Those who falsely accuse a person of rape should face the maximum sentence a rapist would get along with all the consequences of course (having to register as sex offender etc.).
No, the sentence should be worse. Seriously.
A false accuser is not only possibly fucking up some innocent guy's life, she's also "crying wolf" and thereby creating doubt in the minds of others about the legitimacy of real rapes and, by extension, possibly making it easier for real rapists to go unpunished.
-
No, the sentence should be worse. Seriously.
Agreed it should be more-much much more- but even that would be welcome. In accusations of rape the alleged victim's identity is usually not revealed but there doesn't seem to be much issue with the alleged rapist's identity. What sentence does a false accuser of rape receive usually (in the rare cases they are taken to court)? It's not the same as the prison time a rapist would receive but most importantly, the destruction of that person's name and reputation by a false rape accusation.
-
I just raped my neighbor...let's see if she reports it....
-
Who cares what those sperm receptacles are up in arms about or what they think?
-
What's wrong with the term?
Doesn't it just mean a rape where the victim did not go to the cops?
Why the insistence on substantiation before it's ok to call it rape and not an alleged rape?
Would you do that with an unreported (to the cops) burglary?
For you to insist on "allegation" language seems to imply that you think false rape accusations are somewhat common.
Come to think about it, I really don't get it unless your default position is that women are lying when they say they've been raped. (And if you think this, you are smoking crack.)
C'mon, you must have a feeling about this one way or another: Whaddaya think is more common, a woman not reporting a rape or a woman alleging rape when one did not occur?
You make a lot of assumptions without taking the time to think. The reason its necessary to make a distinction is because the person accused of rape has not had the due process of law to determine whether he is a rapist. You know, the whole basis of our legal system, innocent until proven guilty. I could call you a rapist if I so choose but that doesn't make you one.
I dont know whether more rapes are unreported than reported and thats my point.
-
You make a lot of assumptions without taking the time to think. The reason its necessary to make a distinction is because the person accused of rape has not had the due process of law to determine whether he is a rapist. You know, the whole basis of our legal system, innocent until proven guilty. I could call you a rapist if I so choose but that doesn't make you one.
I dont know whether more rapes are unreported than reported and thats my point.
Due process? lol. Wise up, man. Who's being prosecuted here? No one. So no one is being denied due process.
So if that's your whole reason for why one shouldn't refer to unreported rapes on the basis of a woman's word alone, then I guess that's a swing and a miss.
When the purpose of the study is to examine the frequency of reported rapes vs unreported rapes, then no one in particular is being brought to court and that's by design, don't you think? After all, if bringing past rapists to justice was the intent when women were interviewed for the study, then a lot of women wouldn't be so open about the unreported rapes in their past since making a bigger deal about it is likely what they were trying to avoid by not reporting it in the first place. Make any sense to ya??
As to whether you don't know if more rapes are reported or unreported I think you misread my question; I asked what you thought was more common, unreported rapes or false allegations of rape.
-
Due process? lol. Wise up, man. Who's being prosecuted here? No one. So no one is being denied due process.
So if that's your whole reason for why one shouldn't refer to unreported rapes on the basis of a woman's word alone, then I guess that's a swing and a miss.
When the purpose of the study is to examine the frequency of reported rapes vs unreported rapes, then no one in particular is being brought to court and that's by design, don't you think? After all, if bringing past rapists to justice was the intent when women were interviewed for the study, then a lot of women wouldn't be so open about the unreported rapes in their past since making a bigger deal about it is likely what they were trying to avoid by not reporting it in the first place. Make any sense to ya??
As to whether you don't know if more rapes are reported or unreported I think you misread my question; I asked what you thought was more common, unreported rapes or false allegations of rape.
Thats exactly my point. You cant properly quantified or qualify unreported rapes because by definition they are unreported. The intend of the graph was to lead the viewer to the exact conclusions you jumped to without giving evidence that the statistics they provide are accurate. It hooked you right in on an emotional level. Youre making it a moral issue. Insinuating anyone who disagrees with you is pro-rape is an example of that. Im looking at the structure of the argument and attempting to determine its accuracy. I'm not taking what I read at face value.
I dont know if more rapes are unreported than reported and you don't either because neither of us can prove that unreported rapes actually occured. Its only hearsay and conjecture until the case is investigated and proven true or false. We don't even know the context or specifics of the unreported rapes.
-
Thats exactly my point. You cant properly quantified or qualify unreported rapes because by definition they are unreported. The intend of the graph was to lead the viewer to the exact conclusions you jumped to without giving evidence that the statistics they provide are accurate. It hooked you right in on an emotional level. Youre making it a moral issue. Insinuating anyone who disagrees with you is pro-rape is an example of that. Im looking at the structure of the argument and attempting to determine its accuracy. I'm not taking what I read at face value.
I dont know if more rapes are unreported than reported and you don't either because neither of us can prove that unreported rapes actually occured. Its only hearsay and conjecture until the case is investigated and proven true or false. We don't even know the context or specifics of the unreported rapes.
What's "exactly your point"? For a guy that insists on total accuracy you sure aren't being very clear.
And what's "properly" when it comes to quantifying unreported rapes and how is it that you think you're qualified to make such a determination? Are you a statistician? A scientist? An actuary? A mathematician? A pollster? If not, do you have training any those areas? C'mon, man, give me something that makes me think I should listen to your thoughts on this matter.
And this "unreported by definition" shit is laughable. Let me explain: "Unreported rapes" simply means unreported to the law. It does not mean "I got raped but didn't tell anyone about it ever". How is this difficult to understand? You do accept that sometimes people do not report rapes (or any crime they've suffered, for that matter) to the police and yet they will speak about it later, right? Lots of reasons for this are obvious but, as I've never been raped, you'd probably object on the grounds that it was conjecture, lol.
Look, I get that you might have issues with the accuracy of the numbers. Anyone would. But that is not the same thing as saying that the numbers aren't in the ballpark, so to speak, and therefore useful. Science frequently makes use of statistical methods to assign values to occurrences that cannot, strictly speaking, be 100% verified as fact. Let me know if you need examples.
Also, for the 2nd time, I did not ask you to speculate on the frequency of reported (to the law) rapes vs unreported rapes. I asked you to speculate about the frequency of false allegations of rapes vs real rapes. ("Real", btw, means it really happened, it does NOT mean provable in a court of law.) If you decline to speculate that's one thing (about which I'll draw my own conclusions, of course) but the least you can do is show that you understand the question as written, don't ya think?
BTW, sorry to spoil your narrative but I did not seriously insinuate anyone was pro-rape. Did you miss where I told Shockwave that I was kidding? This is Getbig, after all.
-
What's "exactly your point"? For a guy that insists on total accuracy you sure aren't being very clear.
And what's "properly" when it comes to quantifying unreported rapes and how is it that you think you're qualified to make such a determination? Are you a statistician? A scientist? An actuary? A mathematician? A pollster? If not, do you have training any those areas? C'mon, man, give me something that makes me think I should listen to your thoughts on this matter.
And this "unreported by definition" shit is laughable. Let me explain: "Unreported rapes" simply means unreported to the law. It does not mean "I got raped but didn't tell anyone about it ever". How is this difficult to understand? You do accept that sometimes people do not report rapes (or any crime they've suffered, for that matter) to the police and yet they will speak about it later, right? Lots of reasons for this are obvious but, as I've never been raped, you'd probably object on the grounds that it was conjecture, lol.
Look, I get that you might have issues with the accuracy of the numbers. Anyone would. But that is not the same thing as saying that the numbers aren't in the ballpark, so to speak, and therefore useful. Science frequently makes use of statistical methods to assign values to occurrences that cannot, strictly speaking, be 100% verified as fact. Let me know if you need examples.
Also, for the 2nd time, I did not ask you to speculate on the frequency of reported (to the law) rapes vs unreported rapes. I asked you to speculate about the frequency of false allegations of rapes vs real rapes. ("Real", btw, means it really happened, it does NOT mean provable in a court of law.) If you decline to speculate that's one thing (about which I'll draw my own conclusions, of course) but the least you can do is show that you understand the question as written, don't ya think?
BTW, sorry to spoil your narrative but I did not seriously insinuate anyone was pro-rape. Did you miss where I told Shockwave that I was kidding? This is Getbig, after all.
I've been perfectly clear. It's not my problem that you are incapable of understanding. Unreported rapes presumes these rapes actually happened and you can't do that with only the word of the accuser as evidence. This whole 100% business is straight from your mind. I never used 100% ever yet you keep repeating it over and over again. Nor have I ever said or implied in anyway that rapes don't go unreported. Again, that assumption is a productive of your own imagination.
As I've said numerous times and you still don't seem to grasp, I don't know whether these cases of unreported rape are accurate because I don't have any evidence to determine whether these accusations are factual. It's disingenuous to present these unverified cases as fact in order to prove an argument.
You absolutely insinuated anyone who disagreed with you was pro-rape. Own that shit. Don't run from it like a pussy. As for it being a joke, do you consider rape and accusing a person of rape to be funny? You have a seriously fucked up sense of humor and probably aren't the type of person anyone should be talking to about rape, especially a victim.
-
I've been perfectly clear. It's not my problem that you are incapable of understanding. Unreported rapes presumes these rapes actually happened and you can't do that with only the word of the accuser as evidence. This whole 100% business is straight from your mind. I never used 100% ever yet you keep repeating it over and over again. Nor have I ever said or implied in anyway that rapes don't go unreported. Again, that assumption is a productive of your own imagination.
As I've said numerous times and you still don't seem to grasp, I don't know whether these cases of unreported rape are accurate because I don't have any evidence to determine whether these accusations are factual. It's disingenuous to present these unverified cases as fact in order to prove an argument.
You absolutely insinuated anyone who disagreed with you was pro-rape. Own that shit. Don't run from it like a pussy. As for it being a joke, do you consider rape and accusing a person of rape to be funny? You have a seriously fucked up sense of humor and probably aren't the type of person anyone should be talking to about rape, especially a victim.
LOL. I can't joke about rape? Says who? You should probably untangle your panties and realize that this is Getbig.
Let me add that if, as you sort of seem to be saying in your last sentence, YOU are victim of rape, then I apologize for my insensitivity (even though by your thinking, I guess I can't accept your claim without some form of substantiation other than your word, ya pity-seeking rape victim wannabe who is possibly speaking with a forked tongue, lol.)
OK, so you're saying that one can't accept that a rape occurred based only on the word of the person who claims to have been raped, right? Says who? Look, if you have some sort of training or actual experience with putting together studies about such things, then I'm all ears. To me, though, it seems like you're misapplying the standards of the legal system whereby convicting someone of rape based solely on the testimony of the victim with no other evidence, physical or otherwise, is likely unacceptable.
Either that or you're from some middle-eastern country (or maybe India?) where a rape isn't considered a rape unless there are 4 witnesses. (Oh shit, more rape humor, right? lol)
You are right that you never mentioned "100% verifiable" so sorry for that but I'm wondering, what is the standard in your mind? You say that you can't accept that a woman has been raped on her word alone, right? So, at a minimum, what other evidence to you need before you'll think to yourself that, "Yeah, she really has been raped?".
At the risk of distracting you so that you don't answer the question above (like you won't answer whether you think false allegations of rape are more common than actual rapes even though I've posed this question 4 times now, lol) I will reiterate that for the purpose of conducting a survey (and NOT for convicting someone of rape in a court of law) I think the woman's word is good enough as long as the questioning is conducted with as little bias as possible.
So, what say you?: Besides a woman's word, what else do you need at a bare minimum to reasonably believe she has been raped?
BTW, don't let the following vid distract ya too much. It only concerns your pearl-clutching about what's not OK to joke about:
-
LOL. I can't joke about rape? Says who? You should probably untangle your panties and realize that this is Getbig.
Let me add that if, as you sort of seem to be saying in your last sentence, YOU are victim of rape, then I apologize for my insensitivity (even though by your thinking, I guess I can't accept your claim without some form of substantiation other than your word, ya pity-seeking rape victim wannabe who is possibly speaking with a forked tongue, lol.)
OK, so you're saying that one can't accept that a rape occurred based only on the word of the person who claims to have been raped, right? Says who? Look, if you have some sort of training or actual experience with putting together studies about such things, then I'm all ears. To me, though, it seems like you're misapplying the standards of the legal system whereby convicting someone of rape based solely on the testimony of the victim with no other evidence, physical or otherwise, is likely unacceptable.
Either that or you're from some middle-eastern country (or maybe India?) where a rape isn't considered a rape unless there are 4 witnesses. (Oh shit, more rape humor, right? lol)
You are right that you never mentioned "100% verifiable" so sorry for that but I'm wondering, what is the standard in your mind? You say that you can't accept that a woman has been raped on her word alone, right? So, at a minimum, what other evidence to you need before you'll think to yourself that, "Yeah, she really has been raped?".
At the risk of distracting you so that you don't answer the question above (like you won't answer whether you think false allegations of rape are more common than actual rapes even though I've posed this question 4 times now, lol) I will reiterate that for the purpose of conducting a survey (and NOT for convicting someone of rape in a court of law) I think the woman's word is good enough as long as the questioning is conducted with as little bias as possible.
So, what say you?: Besides a woman's word, what else do you need at a bare minimum to reasonably believe she has been raped?
BTW, don't let the following vid distract ya too much. It only concerns your pearl-clutching about what's not OK to joke about:
Proving someone guilty of a crime always involves more than the word of the accuser. This is the one of the pillars of our justice system. Im sorry that you are incapable of understanding this fact.
You dont have to create a study to determine whether the data and the application of that data may be inaccurate. Statistics is one of my personal hobbies. Unlike you, I dont accept what I read at face value because I understand how stats are manipulated. You feel comfortable commenting on it when it's clear you have no idea how to properly interpret the information. If you do happen to work with statistics, may I suggest you find a new line of work.
Joking about rape is just plain creepy and disrespectful to the victims. It takes a depraved mind to find rape remotely funny. You might want to think about what you say instead of being a passive aggressive bitch and making snide comments in bad taste when someone disagrees with you. The original "joke" was simply your way of lashing out and it makes you look like a teenage girl who had her feelings hurt. Im beginning to wonder if your brazen mocking of rape victims indicates something much deeper. You could very well be a rapist. You might not be a rapist but you dont respect women. Your other "joke" referring to living in a middle eastern country is another example of your feminine passive aggressiveness. Youre moralizing instead of engaging in a discussion like a man.
For the last time, I dont know whether false allegations are more common than actual rapes. Ive answered this question multiple times. What I've said repeatedly is that in order to properly quantify actual rapes its disingenuous to use unproven allegations such as unreported rapes in calculating the total number of rapes because they cant be substantiated.
-
Proving someone guilty of a crime always involves more than the word of the accuser. This is the one of the pillars of our justice system. Im sorry that you are incapable of understanding this fact.
You dont have to create a study to determine whether the data and the application of that data may be inaccurate. Statistics is one of my personal hobbies. Unlike you, I dont accept what I read at face value because I understand how stats are manipulated. You feel comfortable commenting on it when it's clear you have no idea how to properly interpret the information. If you do happen to work with statistics, may I suggest you find a new line of work.
Joking about rape is just plain creepy and disrespectful to the victims. It takes a depraved mind to find rape remotely funny. You might want to think about what you say instead of being a passive aggressive bitch and making snide comments in bad taste when someone disagrees with you. The original "joke" was simply your way of lashing out and it makes you look like a teenage girl who had her feelings hurt. Im beginning to wonder if your brazen mocking of rape victims indicates something much deeper. You could very well be a rapist. You might not be a rapist but you dont respect women. Your other "joke" referring to living in a middle eastern country is another example of your feminine passive aggressiveness. Youre moralizing instead of engaging in a discussion like a man.
For the last time, I dont know whether false allegations are more common than actual rapes. Ive answered this question multiple times. What I've said repeatedly is that in order to properly quantify actual rapes its disingenuous to use unproven allegations such as unreported rapes in calculating the total number of rapes because they cant be substantiated.
Well what a pussy you sound like. No, not for complaining that I'm not sensitive enough to know that joking about the subject of rape is verboten. No, you are a pussy because you wrote all that in order to dodge the question about what, in your mind, would be sufficient evidence for you to believe a woman has been raped aside from her word, didn't you?
C'mon, guy who counts the study of statistics among his "personal hobbies" (LOL), show me I'm wrong about this and answer please:
Besides a woman's word, what additional evidence do you personally need at a bare minimum to be able to reasonably conclude that she's not lying about having been raped?
-
Well what a pussy you sound like. No, not for complaining that I'm not sensitive enough to know that joking about the subject of rape is verboten. No, you are a pussy because you wrote all that in order to dodge the question about what, in your mind, would be sufficient evidence for you to believe a woman has been raped aside from her word, didn't you?
C'mon, guy who counts the study of statistics among his "personal hobbies" (LOL), show me I'm wrong about this and answer please:
Besides a woman's word, what additional evidence do you personally need at a bare minimum to be able to reasonably conclude that she's not lying about having been raped?
At least I'm not a passive aggressive old man who makes makes snide little comments like a woman on the rag. Maybe youre just one of those overly emotional sensitive types. Yes, stats are a personal hobby. Ive mentioned my interest in stats on several threads. For the record, the type of person who has stats as a hobby is someone who knows what the fuck hes talking about, unlike you.
By the way, according to your own criteria you shouldnt even be commenting on stats because you know nothing about. Well, you might know a thing or two about raping women. As for evidence? Any evidence other than her word alone. Ive said that a million times but your dumb old ass doesnt seem to get it. Maybe its time to buy new bifocals.
Whats in my mind? Whats in my mind is deconstructing th conclusion being made by the graph and corresponding stats to determine accuracy. Idiotic ideologues like you are so myopic, you assume the act of questioning anything is wrong or there is an ulterior motive involved.
-
At least I'm not a passive aggressive old man who makes makes snide little comments like a woman on the rag. Maybe youre just one of those overly emotional sensitive types. Yes, stats are a personal hobby. Ive mentioned my interest in stats on several threads. For the record, the type of person who has stats as a hobby is someone who knows what the fuck hes talking about, unlike you.
By the way, according to your own criteria you shouldn't even be commenting on stats because you know nothing about. Well, you might know a thing or two about raping women. As for evidence? Any evidence other than her word alone. Ive said that a million times but your dumb old ass doesnt seem to get it. Maybe its time to buy new bifocals.
Whats in my mind? Whats in my mind is deconstructing th conclusion being made by the graph and corresponding stats to determine accuracy. Idiotic ideologues like you are so myopic, you assume the act of questioning anything is wrong or there is an ulterior motive involved.
An example of this other evidence? Pretty please.
And sorry, man, you've not said "any evidence other than her word alone" that I've seen. You've only said "not her word alone". (If I'm wrong, point to where, please.) And that's not the same as saying you'd accept "any evidence + her word" because, for all I know, there are other sorts of what some folks call evidence that you'd not accept. I hope this is clear.
BTW, I'm honestly not so interested in getting into a pissing match with you or most folks here. I'm not averse to it and can find it fun sometimes, but I'm perfectly able to resist the urge to insult as long as you do the same. I'm a little too lazy to read back through the thread but I'm pretty sure that you started with the blatant insults before I did. I think the only semi-provocative thing I wrote before you began to charmingly (lol) comment on mah feminine side (lol) was "Wise up, mang". Is that really so rude?
So, chill negress. I certainly didn't mean to get you so uh, worked up (is that a fair characterization?) that you'd do a search through my other posts. (But if you did search and the best you could come up with was, "Hey, this guy is 50, I'll talk about that", well I guess I should feel good, right? lol.)
Back to the subject: I'm a SW QA Engineer (not that means much except I do use stats some in my job, determining the standard deviation for performance test runs, mostly), I've taken statistics at the college level and am a more than fairly logical guy, so I generally agree that evaluating the accuracy of claims makes sense. -- However, what lengths one goes to do that ought to be commensurate with the importance of the topic, don't you think? In other words, if my life depended on it, I would definitely be more interested in obtaining confirmation about the accuracy of the range of unreported rapes that are claimed in the graphic that was the result of the study in question. But, if the claim seems reasonable and it's not a serious matter for me, why go through all the trouble?
I should explain why the unreported rape thing seems reasonable to me, I think; Now, maybe I have spoken to more girls than you about this subject (this is no veiled putdown - As you've said, I'm old and so I've been close to a lot of females), but really, almost every girl older than college-age whom I've gotten to know well and to whom I've spoken to about this subject has a story to tell about being raped or nearly raped and not reporting it to the law. I'm not exaggerating. So, were all or most of them lying? I don't didn't think so then and I don't think so now. Of course, even if you believe every word I've written, this isn't proof of anything but it IS not completely worthless, I think.
So, I'm still interested to get an example of the evidence other than the girl's word that you'd accept in order to believe she's been raped.
Otherwise, you're just a guy who's saying (correctly), "How can they know that for sure?; They can't know that for sure!" while not trying to find out how the results of the study were achieved, nor acknowledging that findings based solely on a woman's word are not without value when it comes to trying to find the approximate relative prevalence of unreported rapes.
And, if that's all you're doing, no matter whether you defensively think that might make me think poorly about your motives or not, it can definitely be said that you're not adding much to the discussion.
TL; DR: Here's an olive branch...now quit being so touchy.
Lastly, do ya mind if I ask you a little bit about your hobby? When one's personal hobby is statistics, what sort of activities does that entail? Really, what sort of statistical methods are you most familiar with? Do you use any sampling theory at all? If so, I'm surprised that you seem to find it hard to accept that the study, which is breaking exactly no new ground by doing so, is trying to make use of sampling theory to use info taken from a sample of raped women to inductively infer parameters of the population as a whole. It's been a long time since I sat in a statistics classroom, though, so maybe there's some rule I haven't heard of that proscribes using the word of one person about, well, anything?