Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Roger Bacon on June 21, 2014, 09:33:29 AM
-
Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?
???
-
Yes they would still be needed
-
Snug tight just with a hand wrench always worked for me, Roger.
-
Snug tight just with a hand lube always worked for me, Roger
-
lol^^
-
Yes they would still be needed
Because of expansion and contraction? ???
-
Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?
???
As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing, the answer is yes. Period.
-
As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing, the answer is yes. Period.
Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!
Is it because of the change in temperature?
-
I dunno bro.
Maybe JB Weld it or somethin.
-
Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!
Is it because of the change in temperature?
Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.
-
omg omg omg
So, anyway, yeah, I think so. Since metal, what with being all incompressible (ya) is unlikely to forgive even CNC deviations. There's no such thing as perfect machining. And there's going to be differential thermal movement, which calls for a springy joint that will not just be expansive in a gap but will get out of the way when pinched and then return when needed. Then the issue of wear (where applicable) and servicability, bottom line being that nothing perfectly mated (in theory) will stay that way.
I can't confirm it but it makes sense to me that jointing material is also designed to expand /contract with appropriate sponginess with the right oil. I bet there's a whole dynamic going on there between oil viscosity and joint impregnibility, oil contamination & joint degredation, etc.
Never worked on an engine. Did the gaskets on my lathe.
-
I think they should cast the whole damn engine in one piece,
the block and head in one piece around the pistons. yeah you cant access for repairs etc but imagien the combustion pressure you could alow without blowing anything, and some crazy high octane fuel choices. maybe even unrefined corn oil.
-
omg omg omg
So, anyway, yeah, I think so. Since metal, what with being all incompressible (ya) is unlikely to forgive even CNC deviations. There's no such thing as perfect machining. And there's going to be differential thermal movement, which calls for a springy joint that will not just be expansive in a gap but will get out of the way when pinched and then return when needed. Then the issue of wear (where applicable) and servicability, bottom line being that nothing perfectly mated (in theory) will stay that way.
I can't confirm it but it makes sense to me that jointing material is also designed to expand /contract with appropriate sponginess with the right oil. I bet there's a whole dynamic going on there between oil viscosity and joint impregnibility, oil contamination & joint degredation, etc.
Never worked on an engine. Did the gaskets on my lathe.
Prett much correct on all counts. I wasnt going to go thay into depth, but yes. A gasket has to has a certain amount of maleability and formability in that it has to expand and contract wirh the heat cycling that goes on in an internal combustion engine, as the cylinders start their cycle, all your perfect machine work goes out the window (to a point), so the gasket has to take up the slack, seal and fill the porosity in the metals enough so that the fluids cannot work their way between them, etc etc etc
-
As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing, the answer is yes. Period.
Fuck, are you?! I'm in awe of you guys. Can't wait to find some time to get into a workshop of my own. Keith Fenner's are some of my favorite YouTubes.
I've got an old Holbrook C10 out there in the garage, awaiting restoration. Bit of a work in progress, I'm afraid. Other than grime, my lack of time (and lack of 3 phase lol), ways & gears etc are in very cherry cond. Dickhead damage to the compound mount will be the biggest hurdle. I date it late war, 1943 or so. Amazing finish with cast brass plates all over it.
Warning: I may PM endlessly in the future.
-
Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!
Is it because of the change in temperature?
i can answer this
Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.
-
i can answer this
Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.
They learned from North Korea finally.
-
Fuck, are you?! I'm in awe of you guys. Can't wait to find some time to get into a workshop of my own. Keith Fenner's are some of my favorite YouTubes.
I've got an old Holbrook C10 out there in the garage, awaiting restoration. Bit of a work in progress, I'm afraid. Other than grime, my lack of time (and lack of 3 phase lol), ways & gears etc are in very cherry cond. Dickhead damage to the compound mount will be the biggest hurdle. I date it late war, 1943 or so. Amazing finish with cast brass plates all over it.
Warning: I may PM endlessly in the future.
Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting.
-
Hey tape, ill get back to you later. Im actually just heading out with my family to go visit a sick grandparent.
-
Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting.
Look man, I've got a lathe from 1943 and no training. 5 axis?! What do you want from me? ;D
That sounds like a damn cool way to make a living. The computerization stuff would leave me in the dust tho.
Edit: No worries man. Gotta crash myself.
-
They learned from North Korea finally.
Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting. In pyongyang, bestckorea
-
VW sent out a service bulletin in the 90's recommending removing the cylinder head gaskets on the aircooled motors. Common practice on these motors. So, for all you know it alls, try to do better.
-
I'm always secretly jealous when I see such informed replies to threads like this. :-\
Now I know how The Trainer feels when he reads big words.
-
I think it's high time for a complete rethinking the combustion engine, from the ground up. We should come up with a new blueprint. There HAS to be simpler more efficient way to convert calories of gasoline to motion. Its downright foolish.
-
I think it's high time for a complete rethinking the combustion engine, from the ground up. We should come up with a new blueprint. There HAS to be simpler more efficient way to convert calories of gasoline to motion. Its downright foolish.
Judging by new cars and F1 it is going towards hybrids and reusing stored energy for now. Electric cars are a crock of shit right now, not just because of range but also the carbon dioxide used to make hippy cars (including using rare metals) is fare greater than a normal car yet it is ignored when people look at CO2 emissions.
-
Allow me to present the future of combustion engines!
-
How pretty it really is.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=539834.0;attach=568720;image)
I sense a lot of wonder and amazement that nobody have thought of this yet and I am freely sharing my breakthrough for humanity instead of patent pending the damn thing for profit.
-
Allow me to present the future of combustion engines!
Look up wankel rotary brah.
Lots of rpm, not a lot of torque
-
Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?
???
Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.
-
I think it's high time for a complete rethinking the combustion engine, from the ground up. We should come up with a new blueprint. There HAS to be simpler more efficient way to convert calories of gasoline to motion. Its downright foolish.
exactly i bet some open minded 5 year old with the right books could
-
Ethanol does not run engines worth a damn.
-
Ethanol does not run engines worth a damn.
Its very tricky to tune motors that run on alcohol, they require a completely different A/F mix and the actual quality of the alcohol varies greatly, there is no standard.
-
Its very tricky to tune motors that run on alcohol, they require a completely different A/F mix and the actual quality of the alcohol varies greatly, there is no standard.
Good point.
-
How pretty it really is.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=539834.0;attach=568720;image)
I sense a lot of wonder and amazement that nobody have thought of this yet and I am freely sharing my breakthrough for humanity instead of patent pending the damn thing for profit.
You're about 4 decades late on the idea, but good effort. Wankel rotary, look it up. Great for racing, horrible for engine longevity in economy cars because the seals have to redone frequently.
There have been a couple of attempts at making rotary valve systems on conventional piston engines too. Same issue. hard to seal.
-
You're about 4 decades late on the idea, but good effort. Wankel rotary, look it up. Great for racing, horrible for engine longevity in economy cars because the seals have to redone frequently.
There have been a couple of attempts at making rotary valve systems on conventional piston engines too. Same issue. hard to seal.
Youre about 10 posts top late brah
Look up wankel rotary brah.
Lots of rpm, not a lot of torque
-
Look up wankel rotary brah.
Lots of rpm, not a lot of torque
lol The RX7 comes to mind
-
Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?
???
Yes you need them. Its like having a rubber when fucking some chick. Your chances not to fuck up your existents increase by a lot. Its just safer
-
Youre about 10 posts top late brah
story of my life
-
story of my life
;D
I wasnt going to point out that ramis rotating piston would still need seals to get the air in, exhaust out, and seal enough to utilize compression.
-
My neighbor's dog had a four inch clit
-
omg omg omg
So, anyway, yeah, I think so. Since metal, what with being all incompressible (ya) is unlikely to forgive even CNC deviations. There's no such thing as perfect machining. And there's going to be differential thermal movement, which calls for a springy joint that will not just be expansive in a gap but will get out of the way when pinched and then return when needed. Then the issue of wear (where applicable) and servicability, bottom line being that nothing perfectly mated (in theory) will stay that way.
I can't confirm it but it makes sense to me that jointing material is also designed to expand /contract with appropriate sponginess with the right oil. I bet there's a whole dynamic going on there between oil viscosity and joint impregnibility, oil contamination & joint degredation, etc.
Never worked on an engine. Did the gaskets on my lathe.
Good thread, you guys are genius.
-
Yes you need them. Its like having a rubber when fucking some chick. Your chances not to fuck up your existents increase by a lot. Its just safer
lol
I put a piston ring and some royal purple around my cock when I'm going at it. 8)
-
I dunno bro.
Maybe JB Weld it or somethin.
haha... so true :D
-
Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?
???
You guys should think further. Where, in the automotive world, you find the most perfect machined parts, and the finest tolerances? Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. super sports, which are completely hand build cars. Why? Because of the perfect parts and high tolerances. Can you even imagine of the price of the engine, which is made so high tolerances, that it doesn't need any caskets? It can be done, it would work, but it would go to pieces very fast. Why? Because those high tolerances. Caskets are there to a. seal the pieces together and b. to keep construction stable with all those different temperatures.
-
Moving parts have to have clearance in order to run and not seize. These same moving parts need ways to regulate the flow of oil around them while maintaining the critical.clearances in order to run properly.
for instance, valve guides need about a thou and a half to 2 thou clearance (.0015-.002) between the itself and the moving valve. In order to not gall and seize, oil is needed to form a cushion between the 2 parts. Contrary to popular belief, a valve seal does NOT prevent oil from entering the combustion chamber.... it METERS oil into the valve guide to lubricate the parts. So a certain amlint of oil is allowed in the chamber... but too mich would cause severe combustion issues.
So you fan see that maintaining that tolerance on the moving parts and metwring rhe oil to the guide necessitates a seal.
Seals/gaskets are not just to 100% seal or make up for machine tolerances, theyre engineered into the mechanical system as almost a an integral part of the lubrication system. No motor would ever be able to be 100% seal and gasket free, not as long as were using the technology we do right now.
-
How pretty it really is.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=539834.0;attach=568720;image)
I sense a lot of wonder and amazement that nobody have thought of this yet and I am freely sharing my breakthrough for humanity instead of patent pending the damn thing for profit.
You guys should think further. Where, in the automotive world, you find the most perfect machined parts, and the finest tolerances? Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. super sports, which are completely hand build cars. Why? Because of the perfect parts and high tolerances. Can you even imagine of the price of the engine, which is made so high tolerances, that it doesn't need any caskets? It can be done, it would work, but it would go to pieces very fast. Why? Because those high tolerances. Caskets are there to a. seal the pieces together and b. to keep construction stable with all those different temperatures.
Is anyone here surprised at the quality of posts and posters we get here at getbig on just about every conceivable topic? I mean, Mario Illien and Paul Morgan ain't got nothing on Ropo and Rami. Maybe you guys can start "POMI ENGINEERING" together?
-
vehicles are going electric over the next few years so it's not really a concern anymore
sell your combustion vehicles and save up for electric.
bmw is going all out on this now. they even made the first factory to produce carbon fiber parts for the EV's
you americans are so behind the curve right now it's not even funny
-
vehicles are going electric over the next few years so it's not really a concern anymore
sell your combustion vehicles and save up for electric.
bmw is going all out on this now. they even made the first factory to produce carbon fiber parts for the EV's
you americans are so behind the curve right now it's not even funny
Batteries are no good. Huge, inefficient, expensive and environmentally disastrous to manufacture takes a lot of energy.
Combustion of water and air (and some other cheap and readily available component) is probably the future.
-
Batteries are no good. Huge, inefficient, expensive and environmentally disastrous to manufacture takes a lot of energy.
Combustion of water and air (and some other cheap and readily available component) is probably the future.
Electric is great for a number of reasons, including a flat torque curve. We're still at the beginning and battery technology will only improve going forward.
-
Ethanol does not run engines worth a damn.
Its very tricky to tune motors that run on alcohol, they require a completely different A/F mix and the actual quality of the alcohol varies greatly, there is no standard.
-
Its very tricky to tune motors that run on alcohol, they require a completely different A/F mix and the actual quality of the alcohol varies greatly, there is no standard.
Good information, I assume that North Korean children get taught this in the 1st grade of school. We dont get that here good schooling here.
-
Electric is great for a number of reasons, including a flat torque curve. We're still at the beginning and battery technology will only improve going forward.
Yes, but were decaded if not centuries from them being a viable alternative.. right now they only go like 50-100 miles on a charge, are tiny in general, have to charge overnight, and there is no infastructure in place to support (I.E. charging stations).
The fact that you cant roll up and 'fill up the battery' pretty much makes them worthless to anyone but those people who barely drive.
Add in the roadblocks that the oil companies are goinf to put into place... and the possible backlash against green energy when people start to get fed up with skyrocketing energy prices... and im not sure how long it would take.
-
(http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/07/65/01/92/0007650192356_AV_500X500.jpg)
Ass Gasket Of Peace
-
Yes, but were decaded if not centuries from them being a viable alternative.. right now they only go like 50-100 miles on a charge, are tiny in general, have to charge overnight, and there is no infastructure in place to support (I.E. charging stations).
The fact that you cant roll up and 'fill up the battery' pretty much makes them worthless to anyone but those people who barely drive.
Add in the roadblocks that the oil companies are goinf to put into place... and the possible backlash against green energy when people start to get fed up with skyrocketing energy prices... and im not sure how long it would take.
The only way that the electric car will succeed long term is to move to rechargeable battery stations, where a standard type of battery is used for every vehicle. You would drive up, lift the battery out and put it on a charger, and a fresh battery dropped into your car. There is no infrastructure for that in place right now and it would take decades to get that going across the country. Parking a car and not being able to drive for 8 hours while it recharges is ridiculous and doesnt fit into anyones fast-paced lifestyle. I dont want to get home from work and have to wait 8 hours to get to the gym.
Gas is now $1.55.9/L here. About $5.92 a gallon. It cant be much longer before everyone just says "fuck oil companies, im walking everywhere". Having to spend $300.00 a month in fuel for normal amount of driving it outrageous, not to mention people who drive for work or long haul truckers.
Oil rant of Peace
-
The only way that the electric car will succeed long term is to move to rechargeable battery stations, where a standard type of battery is used for every vehicle. You would drive up, lift the battery out and put it on a charger, and a fresh battery dropped into your car. There is no infrastructure for that in place right now and it would take decades to get that going across the country. Parking a car and not being able to drive for 8 hours while it recharges is ridiculous and doesnt fit into anyones fast-paced lifestyle. I dont want to get home from work and have to wait 8 hours to get to the gym.
Gas is now $1.55.9/L here. About $5.92 a gallon. It cant be much longer before everyone just says "fuck oil companies, im walking everywhere". Having to spend $300.00 a month in fuel for normal amount of driving it outrageous, not to mention people who drive for work or long haul truckers.
Oil rant of Peace
there are highvoltage chargers that can charge your battery full in 30 minutes today.
in the future batteries can probably take higher voltage so 10 minutes or so for full charge not impossible imo
-
there are highvoltage chargers that can charge your battery full in 30 minutes today.
in the future batteries can probably take higher voltage so 10 minutes or so for full charge not impossible imo
Where do we get these?
-
Where do we get these?
Im sure your local wal mart carries them.
Its a nice idea but right now its a pipe dream.
-
Yes, but were decaded if not centuries from them being a viable alternative.. right now they only go like 50-100 miles on a charge, are tiny in general, have to charge overnight, and there is no infastructure in place to support (I.E. charging stations).
The fact that you cant roll up and 'fill up the battery' pretty much makes them worthless to anyone but those people who barely drive.
Add in the roadblocks that the oil companies are goinf to put into place... and the possible backlash against green energy when people start to get fed up with skyrocketing energy prices... and im not sure how long it would take.
Two words: Tesla Motors.
The Tesla Model S is:
- A good-looking car - not a goofy golf-cart-like contraption;
- A safe car - it scores amazingly well on crash tests and broke (http://allthingsd.com/20130820/teslas-model-s-breaks-roof-testing-machine-car-safety-record/) the machine that conducts one of the tests. It beats the other established players in its class (Mercedes and BMW) hands-down. It drives and handles great.
- A long-range car - it can drive upwards of 250 miles (depending on how much you use the fun-pedal, of course).
- A quickly-recharging car - it can be recharged on the road in under an hour for free at facilities Tesla has already built along major highway routes.
- A super-quickly-recharging car - it can have its battery pack swapped in for another, fully charged pack, in under 60 seconds at those same faciltiies as I previously mentioned for a small fee.
- A driver's car - just about everyone who's driven a Tesla raves about how good it handles and how comfortable the ride is.
Why am I saying this? Because the fact is that there's a viable electric car today which puts the internal combustion competition to shame. Is it a car for the masses? No, of course not - not today, although it will trickle down as time goes on. But electric cars are here today and as the technology improves they will become a much better value proposition than vehicles with internal combustion engines for many, if not most, uses.
-
Thanks for leaving this up Ron/Mods, sorry about the extreme off topic post! :-[
-
Two words: Tesla Motors.
The Tesla Model S is:
- A good-looking car - not a goofy golf-cart-like contraption;
- A safe car - it scores amazingly well on crash tests and broke (http://allthingsd.com/20130820/teslas-model-s-breaks-roof-testing-machine-car-safety-record/) the machine that conducts one of the tests. It beats the other established players in its class (Mercedes and BMW) hands-down. It drives and handles great.
- A long-range car - it can drive upwards of 250 miles (depending on how much you use the fun-pedal, of course).
- A quickly-recharging car - it can be recharged on the road in under an hour for free at facilities Tesla has already built along major highway routes.
- A super-quickly-recharging car - it can have its battery pack swapped in for another, fully charged pack, in under 60 seconds at those same faciltiies as I previously mentioned for a small fee.
- A driver's car - just about everyone who's driven a Tesla raves about how good it handles and how comfortable the ride is.
Why am I saying this? Because the fact is that there's a viable electric car today which puts the internal combustion competition to shame. Is it a car for the masses? No, of course not - not today, although it will trickle down as time goes on. But electric cars are here today and as the technology improves they will become a much better value proposition than vehicles with internal combustion engines for many, if not most, uses.
Never argued that they didnt carve out a niche market... just that it will be decades or centuries before it becomes a real alternative to the ICE.
Also, id be extremely interested to see exactly how many facilites they have.. I live in one of the most liberal, green energy concious places in the country other than cali, and ive seen exactly 3 recharging stations... 2 at hospitals, within a 100 mile radius of Seattle. Thats it.
That is not a viable alternative imo, unless you live in the area Tesla has focused on productuo , or you cN plan your life around driving by the few charging stations that do exist.
-
Never argued that they didnt carve out a niche market... just that it will be decades or centuries before it becomes a real alternative to the ICE.
Also, id be extremely interested to see exactly how many facilites they have.. I live in one of the most liberal, green energy concious places in the country other than cali, and ive seen exactly 3 recharging stations... 2 at hospitals, within a 100 mile radius of Seattle. Thats it.
That is not a viable alternative imo, unless you live in the area Tesla has focused on productuo , or you cN plan your life around driving by the few charging stations that do exist.
Again, the Model S can go up to 285 miles on a single charge, which means that people don't need to "plan their life" around charging stations: in most cases they can simply drive to where they want to go and back and never blink. Longer trips may take some planning, but not nearly as much as you might think, considering that the car can be charged from any regular 120V outlet. And at any rate, isn't planning always involved when taking longer trips anyways?
Additionally, please note that Tesla has installed over 100 supercharger stations across the continental United States - and more are being added. The fact is that you could use those superchargers to drive coast-to-coast without paying a single dime for gasoline or electricity. Don't believe me? Take a look at the map here: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
You really ought to look at this more closely. The fact is that a viable and practical electric car exists today and is, by many metrics superior to its internal-combustion powered competitors.
-
Again, the Model S can go up to 285 miles on a single charge, which means that people don't need to "plan their life" around charging stations: in most cases they can simply drive to where they want to go and back and never blink. Longer trips may take some planning, but not nearly as much as you might think, considering that the car can be charged from any regular 120V outlet. And at any rate, isn't planning always involved when taking longer trips anyways?
Additionally, please note that Tesla has installed over 100 supercharger stations across the continental United States - and more are being added. The fact is that you could use those superchargers to drive coast-to-coast without paying a single dime for gasoline or electricity. Don't believe me? Take a look at the map here: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
You really ought to look at this more closely. The fact is that a viable and practical electric car exists today and is, by many metrics superior to its internal-combustion powered competitors.
Eh, ill take your word for it, but its still a long way from being the TRULY viable alternative youre trying to make it out to be. Has it carved out a niche? Absolutely. Can it take you anywhere a gasoline driven vehicle can, as easily, without special research and planning? No. You couldnt take a trip camping to eastern washington with one, without extremely critical planning and/or going way out of your way, as there are hundreds on miles of nothing, plus mountain passes, etc, without a single charging station. And how long does it take to charge on 120?
My point is that you cant just hop in and go anywhere you want like you can with an ICE powered vehicle. Once they get to that point ill agree with you.
-
And after looking at the map, in order to take a trip to northeastern washington as is so popular to camp, you'd have to drive almost a hundred miles out of your way to refuel after crossing the pass... and then you have several hundred miles there and back before you could cross back over.
Its a nice idea and im sure it will develop, but its not quite as nice as youre trying to make it out to be just yet.
-
Where do we get these?
a 900+ something volt socket :)
-
a 900+ something volt socket :)
Thanks.
-
The only way that the electric car will succeed long term is to move to rechargeable battery stations, where a standard type of battery is used for every vehicle. You would drive up, lift the battery out and put it on a charger, and a fresh battery dropped into your car. There is no infrastructure for that in place right now and it would take decades to get that going across the country. Parking a car and not being able to drive for 8 hours while it recharges is ridiculous and doesnt fit into anyones fast-paced lifestyle. I dont want to get home from work and have to wait 8 hours to get to the gym.
Gas is now $1.55.9/L here. About $5.92 a gallon. It cant be much longer before everyone just says "fuck oil companies, im walking everywhere". Having to spend $300.00 a month in fuel for normal amount of driving it outrageous, not to mention people who drive for work or long haul truckers.
Gas in America can be $10/gallon & people will still keep driving. Sure, people will be more frugal with driving habits.
The only people who have the option of commuting on bikes/walking to work/shopping etc... are people who live in big cities.
Most Americans live in suburbs and rural areas where there is no public transport & you have to drive for miles to do typical stuff like school, work, shopping, kids activities ....etc.