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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Marvin Martian on September 23, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
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While I am 100% pro-police and think that the dumbest thing we could do is de-fund the police - I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant.
Again - I think the police need MUCH MORE FUNDING rather than a decrease.
BUT - if someone charges into my home in the middle of the night I can assure you that I will push the wife off the bed for cover and IMMEDIATELY begin firing. I keep the 12 gauge close and ready.
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While I am 100% pro-police and think that the dumbest thing we could do is de-fund the police - I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant.
Again - I think the police need MUCH MORE FUNDING rather than a decrease.
BUT - if someone charges into my home in the middle of the night I can assure you that I will push the wife off the bed for cover and IMMEDIATELY begin firing. I keep the 12 gauge close and ready.
Agree 100%. In a fast violent situation like that it's almost impossible to sort out exactly what is happening. If a group of armed men bust into your home it's entirely appropiate to fire some shots at them to slow their roll. No knock raids should be reserved for guys like Bin Laden.
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I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals
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I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals
People have made address mistakes, and now, with all the looters and BLM...... Regardless, when a group of armed people rush and break into your home, I hope you don't just sit idle by and say do what you want to me and go lol. I also have an SnW in my bedroom for emergencies
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Not a fan either. Unless there is an imminent threat of some sort of bodily harm being done within the moment, there should be at least a chance to make sure that everything is correct and there is an understanding that a search is going to be conducted. If some drugs get flushed, etc.... so be it.
It isn't just criminals that get wrapped up in this sort of stuff. I knew a guy that once had his door kicked in over a bad address, whoever typed up the warrant left a number off.
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I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals
Still, they've gotten addresses wrong before (though rare). Yes, the "no-knock" and some other practices need to stop, I also am pro-police.
I dont like (like on Cops) they see a guy (hey, he looks suspicious, lets "talk to him" (AKA "search him"). If hes minding his business, leave him alone.
Even with the very small handful of run-ins/arrests, I've behaved, treated them with respect, listened to them, got along fine. The turdz who get shot, 99 times out of 100 they deserve it and earn it w/ their dumb-assedness (and lack of basic intellect). (Low IQ morons).
But yeah, anyone (Cop) kicks open a door yelling screaming, also expect to get shot at. Even Senile Joe is pro-police.
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People have made address mistakes, and now, with all the looters and BLM...... Regardless, when a group of armed people rush and break into your home, I hope you don't just sit idle by and say do what you want to me and go lol. I also have an SnW in my bedroom for emergencies
Armed looters and Cops sent by a judge are 2 totally different things. As I said, I don’t worry about arrest warrants
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I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals
Who would “sit around and worry” about this? And the fact that I don’t break the law is kind of the point don’t you think? If ONLY criminals had ever been recipients of no knock warrants - and it was 100% impossible for there to be human error - we wouldn’t really need to discuss it would we?
I guess the fact that it’s kind of something in the news - it didn’t seem like that insane of a topic.
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Armed looters and Cops sent by a judge are 2 totally different things. As I said, I don’t worry about arrest warrants
If you aren’t prepared to open fire on ANYONE entering your home in the middle of the night you are a fool at best - p#ssy at worst.
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If you aren’t prepared to open fire on ANYONE entering your home in the middle of the night you are a fool at best - p#ssy at worst.
Wow you are a tough guy. You probably stay up past midnight on school nights 😂
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Wow you are a tough guy. You probably stay up past midnight on school nights 😂
and you are the guy who sits and assumes the position while saying, have your way with me.
Anyone who breaks in, without ID will be shot at and questioned later!
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and you are the guy who sits and assumes the position while saying, have your way with me.
Anyone who breaks in, without ID will be shot at and questioned later!
No I’m saying that I don’t worry about getting arrested. I’m saying that I’m not a criminal. The topic of this fucking thread is about warrants for arrest.
But If Antifa or BLM tries anything, they fucking die...
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No I’m saying that I don’t worry about getting arrested. I’m saying that I’m not a criminal. The topic of this fucking thread is about warrants for arrest.
But If Antifa or BLM tries anything, they fucking die...
;) Right on.
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The element of surprise preserves evidence and increases officer safety. You want criminals to have a chance to load their guns and flush their stash and get organized what else should we do for them make sure all the lights are on so they can aim better?
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The element of surprise preserves evidence and increases officer safety. You want criminals to have a chance to load their guns and flush their stash and get organized what else should we do for them make sure all the lights are on so they can aim better?
Good post
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A) The family said the police never identified themselves. Who knows.
B) He thought they were drug dealers so obviously the guy was a criminal. Another angel of the left.
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. Even Senile Joe is pro-police.
is he?
i never heard him say anything in support of the police until he started falling in the polls
E
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Still, they've gotten addresses wrong before (though rare). Yes, the "no-knock" and some other practices need to stop, I also am pro-police.
I dont like (like on Cops) they see a guy (hey, he looks suspicious, lets "talk to him" (AKA "search him"). If hes minding his business, leave him alone.
Even with the very small handful of run-ins/arrests, I've behaved, treated them with respect, listened to them, got along fine. The turdz who get shot, 99 times out of 100 they deserve it and earn it w/ their dumb-assedness (and lack of basic intellect). (Low IQ morons).
But yeah, anyone (Cop) kicks open a door yelling screaming, also expect to get shot at. Even Senile Joe is pro-police.
I use that graph when arguing with libtards on Quora all the time, sets them off. ;D
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While I am 100% pro-police
Scumbags
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Scumbags
Move the fuck out of this country. Now.
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Scumbags
Leave
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Defund the police, let the people sort this out. :D
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While I am 100% pro-police and think that the dumbest thing we could do is de-fund the police - I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant.
Again - I think the police need MUCH MORE FUNDING rather than a decrease.
BUT - if someone charges into my home in the middle of the night I can assure you that I will push the wife off the bed for cover and IMMEDIATELY begin firing. I keep the 12 gauge close and ready.
I keep a firearm in every room in my house. I’ve said this a million times. If someone breaks in and there is an imminent threat to my family or self, I’m unloading my full magazine
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Scumbags
LMFAO. Pigs.
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I keep a firearm in every room in my house. I’ve said this a million times. If someone breaks in and there is an imminent threat to my family or self, I’m unloading my full magazine
Would be great if Saggy visit you at night-time :D
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We all know soggy always enters from the back door, you wouldn’t see him coming
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The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/)
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Why is this case such an outrage? Yes, it’s because the innocent victim was black. And yes, she shouldn’t have died, but if it was any other race the media wouldn’t blow it out of proportion like they do with these certain ones
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Leave
Cop blower
LMFAO. Pigs.
LOL
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There should always be an option for a no knock warrant but only under very specific circumstances. Should the police knock before arresting someone like Bin Laden?
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The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/)
They executed a yes-knock
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Would be great if Saggy visit you at night-time :D
More and more I'm beginning to think you want Saggy Prime to take you up the ole highway.
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They executed a yes-knock
Love how the libtard media lies about this 24x7. They knock, they get fired upon, they shoot back, someone gets killed.
Seems right to me. Libkuntz ::)
Lying, rioting, anti-US BLM'ing douchebags. ::)
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I keep a firearm in every room in my house. I’ve said this a million times. If someone breaks in and there is an imminent threat to my family or self, I’m unloading my full magazine
Good to know. When are you at the gym?
;)
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Why is this case such an outrage? Yes, it’s because the innocent victim was black. And yes, she shouldn’t have died, but if it was any other race the media wouldn’t blow it out of proportion like they do with these certain ones
Right, like the 13 year old white aspergers kid shot by police, not a peep anywhere. No riots, lootin' hooting nor hollering.
No MSM libtard outrage.
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While I am 100% pro-police and think that the dumbest thing we could do is de-fund the police - I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant.
Again - I think the police need MUCH MORE FUNDING rather than a decrease.
BUT - if someone charges into my home in the middle of the night I can assure you that I will push the wife off the bed for cover and IMMEDIATELY begin firing. I keep the 12 gauge close and ready.
You're wrong on no knock warrants. Think of tactics. Do you want to give a violent felon advance warning to get his firearm? If you are coming to arrest for drugs do you want to give them time to flush the drugs, hit the button to use their hard drive erase, take hostages or flee? There are uses for a no knock warrant.
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You're wrong on no knock warrants. Think of tactics. Do you want to give a violent felon advance warning to get his firearm? If you are coming to arrest for drugs do you want to give them time to flush the drugs, hit the button to use their hard drive erase, take hostages or flee? There are uses for a no knock warrant.
First - I have to say that I WAS WRONG about the Taylor issue being a “no knock”...
But - I will never agree for them in anything other than the rarest of circumstances. Drug case?? HELL NO... The drug war is the horrible.
To qualify - I come from a saturated with military & police. Everyone in my family has served other than mom and sister and one brother. Have a cousin who just made Admiral and took command of a nuke submarine group. Another uncle was CO of joint service Air Station Belle Chase (an extremely important line of defense as it is right on the gulf - 2 fighters are at ready 24/7/365)
On the police front - no sheriffs or chiefs - but many uniform and detectives. We’ve had many debates during the holidays over police / military tactics - and “most - not all” agree that because of human error and EVERY one of us having a strong belief that is an Americans DUTY to have his home and person armed - a no knock mistake is not worth it in MOST cases. These should be granted only when evidentiary surveillance proves the correct home via pic/video - AND the high likelihood of danger to the officers.
No knock warrants are given out far to often. I absolutely would shoot first if someone kicked in my door - I will never wait to make sure they are a threat. The invasion of my home is enough. I am 100% with Rand Paul on this - and many issues.
AGAIN - I REALIZE THIS BREONNA TAYLOR EVENT WAS NOT A “NO-KNOCK” and therefore I have to say that other than the undisciplined fire control of the officer charged - there was no breach in constitutional rights!
**** Edit - I am calling my uncle today to make sure that I am correct that **** made Admiral and has assumed command... He was a young officer (by standard) when he made Captain and assumed command of his first Kit class sub... We aren’t super close anymore but he is a pretty cool guy but being submerged and hidden months ago a time literally under pressure takes a very different kind of man.
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A subtle detail is getting overlooked here, that the warrant was served just after midnight. LEOs have to secure a special warrant to do this and judges are pretty reluctant to issue them. Usually raids happen at dawn. The reasons why are pretty obvious, everything is more dangerous in the dark plus the whole neighborhood gets woken up.
So the valid reasons for such a warrant are pretty limited, usually its to secure a dangerous suspect who is hard to pin down or to secure contraband that is likely not going to be gettable if they wait. Think murder suspects or kilos of dope coming into town etc.
So i would really like to see a copy of the search warrant because officers dont get these midnight raid warrants every day and that said i am really confused as to how the officers screwed up so bad executing one. Where is their intel what information were they going off of? And you can be SURE they did not knock tho they likely identified themselves with the obvious noise the battering ram was making. If they got the door down in one whack i can totally understand the dude shooting at them. Give that man props for reacting so efficiently under duress.
Back to the cops i mean take your fucking job a little more serious. This aint an arcade game. And what judge gave them the midnight go ahead and what was the justification?
The DA covering for the officers i guess you had to expect that but just the same it looks terrible all around.
And lets not forget that the victim was not given aid no officers came to help her in the TWENTY minutes before EMTs arrived and in fact her boyfriend was the one who called 911 AND THE EMTS WERE ACTUALLY ON SCENE FOR THE RAID AND TOLD TO LEAVE and THATS EVEN SCARIER
Looks bad, real bad. The fact that the victim was black never registered in my mind and i still dont really care. Her skin color is inconsequential to me. The fact that officers deliberately raided her home the most dangerous way they could and clearly did not plan on medical services being available should anyone get hurt (lol cops guns adrenaline darkness what could go wrong?) the whole thing has me fired up. I dont even want to speculate at racism because clearly the officers had no fucking clue who or what was actually in that apartment.
A damned shame and tragic loss of life.
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You're wrong on no knock warrants. Think of tactics. Do you want to give a violent felon advance warning to get his firearm? If you are coming to arrest for drugs do you want to give them time to flush the drugs, hit the button to use their hard drive erase, take hostages or flee? There are uses for a no knock warrant.
Sounds like the script to Jack Reacher 4. How long does a knock take?
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A subtle detail is getting overlooked here, that the warrant was served just after midnight. LEOs have to secure a special warrant to do this and judges are pretty reluctant to issue them. Usually raids happen at dawn. The reasons why are pretty obvious, everything is more dangerous in the dark plus the whole neighborhood gets woken up.
So the valid reasons for such a warrant are pretty limited, usually its to secure a dangerous suspect who is hard to pin down or to secure contraband that is likely not going to be gettable if they wait. Think murder suspects or kilos of dope coming into town etc.
So i would really like to see a copy of the search warrant because officers dont get these midnight raid warrants every day and that said i am really confused as to how the officers screwed up so bad executing one. Where is their intel what information were they going off of? And you can be SURE they did not knock tho they likely identified themselves with the obvious noise the battering ram was making. If they got the door down in one whack i can totally understand the dude shooting at them. Give that man props for reacting so efficiently under duress.
Back to the cops i mean take your fucking job a little more serious. This aint an arcade game. And what judge gave them the midnight go ahead and what was the justification?
The DA covering for the officers i guess you had to expect that but just the same it looks terrible all around.
And lets not forget that the victim was not given aid no officers came to help her in the TWENTY minutes before EMTs arrived and in fact her boyfriend was the one who called 911 AND THE EMTS WERE ACTUALLY ON SCENE FOR THE RAID AND TOLD TO LEAVE and THATS EVEN SCARIER
Looks bad, real bad. The fact that the victim was black never registered in my mind and i still dont really care. Her skin color is inconsequential to me. The fact that officers deliberately raided her home the most dangerous way they could and clearly did not plan on medical services being available should anyone get hurt (lol cops guns adrenaline darkness what could go wrong?) the whole thing has me fired up. I dont even want to speculate at racism because clearly the officers had no fucking clue who or what was actually in that apartment.
A damned shame and tragic loss of life.
Where are you getting this mostly myth-based information?
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The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/)
Lol...And all the dumbass libs spreading BS about a "no knock warrant"....Our media are completely corrupt..
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Yep, they knocked. MSM just fanning the flames to keep the narrative going.
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First - I have to say that I WAS WRONG about the Taylor issue being a “no knock”...
But - I will never agree for them in anything other than the rarest of circumstances. Drug case?? HELL NO... The drug war is the horrible.
So just to clarify, you don't believe that no-knock warrants HAVE to be ended?
While I am 100% pro-police and think that the dumbest thing we could do is de-fund the police - I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant.
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There should always be an option for a no knock warrant but only under very specific circumstances. Should the police knock before arresting someone like Bin Laden?
I understand your point but Bin Laden was never an American, so the police wouldn’t need a no knock.
The bigger question is what type of criminal needs a no knock? What would be the parameters? A Jeffery Epstein type would be an ideal candidate as opposed to a low level drug dealer.
The problem with the Taylor issue is the police thought she was receiving drug shipments via USPS, that is an easy claim to verify.
The cops screwed up, I don’t think anyone can dispute that, this is why body cams should be used at all times. We have a he said she said situation with the police saying the announced themselves. Why ever leave the fact that this can be argued up to chance?
For me this is less a race issue as it is having the police do their job correctly.
I mean seriously they have a no knock warrant because they want a leg up on the criminal, a suspect they should then assume is armed and dangerous; and two of these guys still get shot?
It’s a hot mess.
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They knocked. They identified themselves (according to witnesses). 1min passed before they belted the front door and this allowed the boyfriend to obtain a gun and shoot a cop which resulted in return fire and the girl shot.
Had they not knocked, the element of surprise would have prevented gun fire and it would have been fine.
it's ironic for people to call out no-knock warrants as a problem when in this scenario a no-knock would have prevented the firing of guns.
No normal person goes and grabs a gun to shoot cops who entered by mistake because you would recognise them as Police before firing. Firing a gun blindly into Police results in your death because you can't shoot at cops. Life isn't GTA or a Hollywood blockbuster. You become proper dead if you start to act like it is.
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They knocked. They identified themselves (according to witnesses). 1min passed before they belted the front door and this allowed the boyfriend to obtain a gun and shoot a cop which resulted in return fire and the girl shot.
Had they not knocked, the element of surprise would have prevented gun fire and it would have been fine.
it's ironic for people to call out no-knock warrants as a problem when in this scenario a no-knock would have prevented the firing of guns.
No normal person goes and grabs a gun to shoot cops who entered by mistake because you would recognise them as Police before firing. Firing a gun blindly into Police results in your death because you can't shoot at cops. Life isn't GTA or a Hollywood blockbuster. You become proper dead if you start to act like it is.
Oh I actually read there are witness statements that they did not identify themselves, so it’s good they have that but still body cameras would provide concrete evidence. We know they knocked because the boyfriend said they asked who’s there, and he said there was no response back.
I’m with you on this, it’s highly unlikely they knocked and didn’t identify them selves but my point stands they’ve handled this incorrectly.
The department has let the media dictate the “facts” of the case, even though they were mostly wrong, instead of clarifying it immediately. Why let this escalate, given the current climate? It continues to paint a picture that law enforcement is above the law.
Again they had a no knock and didn’t use it. Why are no knocks allowed or distributed? To go after dangerous criminals. So they set the parameters that this apartment was a dangerous spot and because they didn’t act as such they were wounded and someone lost their life.
Regardless of how you look at it the police did a poor job.
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I understand your point but Bin Laden was never an American, so the police wouldn’t need a no knock.
The bigger question is what type of criminal needs a no knock? What would be the parameters? A Jeffery Epstein type would be an ideal candidate as opposed to a low level drug dealer.
The problem with the Taylor issue is the police thought she was receiving drug shipments via USPS, that is an easy claim to verify.
The cops screwed up, I don’t think anyone can dispute that, this is why body cams should be used at all times. We have a he said she said situation with the police saying the announced themselves. Why ever leave the fact that this can be argued up to chance?
For me this is less a race issue as it is having the police do their job correctly.
I mean seriously they have a no knock warrant because they want a leg up on the criminal, a suspect they should then assume is armed and dangerous; and two of these guys still get shot?
It’s a hot mess.
Dave,
I’m from Chicago. I will make you a deal. The next time CPD raids a gang drug house on the south side of the City, you offer to walk up to the front door in broad daylight and knock on the door to serve a warrant.
I’ll stand 100 feet back and hold your wallet.
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Dave,
I’m from Chicago. I will make you a deal. The next time CPD raids a gang drug house on the south side of the City, you offer to walk up to the front door in broad daylight and knock on the door to serve a warrant.
I’ll stand 100 feet back and hold your wallet.
Walt,
If you think you’ll be safe in that environment holding my wallet I’ll take you up on it.
You think these cops did a good job? They had a no knock warrant so they could have the element of surprise in a dangerous environment at midnight and then they knock, announce who they are, wait a minute to kick in the door and then get shot? These guys might be better working behind a desk.
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If you aren't willing to pay the price, don't commit the crime.
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If you aren't willing to pay the price, don't commit the crime.
Chaos what crime was committed by B. Taylor? Did the cops at least kill the shooter?
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Chaos what crime was committed by B. Taylor? Did the cops at least kill the shooter?
Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.
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Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.
Lol, I never said she was a saint, just answer the question.
Her having a dead body in her trunk would have been a good response.
Don’t get your feelings hurt.
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I keep a firearm in every room in my house. I’ve said this a million times. If someone breaks in and there is an imminent threat to my family or self, I’m unloading my full magazine
What if the intruders threatening your family are cops going to the wrong address ? It appears the police are under some added pressure these days and numerical mistakes happen once in a while.
Are you still going to unload your arsenal, or are you going to be a good citizen, cower down, and let the nice policemen abuse you and yours?
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I understand your point but Bin Laden was never an American, so the police wouldn’t need a no knock.
The bigger question is what type of criminal needs a no knock? What would be the parameters? A Jeffery Epstein type would be an ideal candidate as opposed to a low level drug dealer.
The problem with the Taylor issue is the police thought she was receiving drug shipments via USPS, that is an easy claim to verify.
The cops screwed up, I don’t think anyone can dispute that, this is why body cams should be used at all times. We have a he said she said situation with the police saying the announced themselves. Why ever leave the fact that this can be argued up to chance?
For me this is less a race issue as it is having the police do their job correctly.
I mean seriously they have a no knock warrant because they want a leg up on the criminal, a suspect they should then assume is armed and dangerous; and two of these guys still get shot?
It’s a hot mess.
The fact that Bin Laden is not an American nor was he in the U.S. is irrelevant. I wanted to give an obvious example where there are situations when a no knock warrant is justified. Some idiot asked, "How long does it take to knock?" What?
You knock and say, "Police, open up." You wait a bit and knock again announcing yourself. Those precious seconds can make all the difference in the world. If it was a drug cartel it gives time for everybody to get their guns. Time for escape. Time to get rid of evidence.
And exactly how did the cops "screw up". "I don't think anyone can dispute that." I really hate when people presume to speak for everybody. Plenty of people, me included, even people on this very thread, don't think the cops screwed up. So please, just speak for yourself. They were shot at. What were they suppose to do? What would you do if you were being shot at. They already announce it was the police.
Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.
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Chaos what crime was committed by B. Taylor? Did the cops at least kill the shooter?
There was evidence that she was involved in his drug trafficking. The boyfriend, when under survellience, went to her apartment, pick up a package, and then he was followed where there later was an exchange giving the package to a known drug dealer. He also listed her address as his. It is highly unlikely that she was unaware of his drug dealing. Nevertheless, a connection was made and they were sent to investigate not to raid her apartment. That's why they didn't knock. She lived alone and there was no compelling reason to thing that she presented an immediate threat.
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Lol, I never said she was a saint, just answer the question.
Her having a dead body in her trunk would have been a good response.
Don’t get your feelings hurt.
I answered the question, I have no feelings, suck a fat dick.
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The fact that Bin Laden is not an American nor was he in the U.S. is irrelevant. I wanted to give an obvious example where there are situations when a no knock warrant is justified. Some idiot asked, "How long does it take to knock?" What?
You knock and say, "Police, open up." You wait a bit and knock again announcing yourself. Those precious seconds can make all the difference in the world. If it was a drug cartel it gives time for everybody to get their guns. Time for escape. Time to get rid of evidence.
And exactly how did the cops "screw up". "I don't think anyone can dispute that." I really hate when people presume to speak for everybody. Plenty of people, me included, even people on this very thread, don't think the cops screwed up. So please, just speak for yourself. They were shot at. What were they suppose to do? What would you do if you were being shot at. They already announce it was the police.
Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.
Pellius, let me start by saying I know you’re a smart guy with a good perspective based on your life’s experiences.
I asked you to set the parameters for a no knock warrant. You haven’t. You use the example of a non US citizen terrorist leader. So if Bin Laden is who we use no knock warrants for I’ll ask you if B. Taylor is in the same category? And since she isn’t what level of dangerous criminal do you rank her at? Is she an Al Capone, John Gotti or Charles Manson? Or is she just a local gang leader?
I’ve clearly explained why I think these cops did a bad job, I don’t know how I can explain it any better. They felt this was dangerous to procure a no knock warrant THEN THEY DONT USE IT AND IN THE PROCESS THEY GET SHOT AND THEN KILL THE SUSPECT BUT NOT THE SHOOTER. If they use the no knock warrant they requested and were granted we have a COMPLETELY different situation on our hands.
I’m not saying they were wrong to return fire, but I will say they were wrong to not use body cameras. If they did we could EASILY eliminate any arguments that they did not announce themselves, or the response that the residents asked who was there and they never responded. Why have body cameras, or dash cameras, and not use them?
If you, or anyone else, think these guys did a good job in this situation then we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sorry I spoke for you, I would assume looking at the facts it would only require common sense to realize they walked into the situation poorly prepared.
Also at no point did I say or imply that resisting the police was an option. This is always a dumb choice and it will cost you, it’s an encounter you will never win in the moment.
I also never said I’m against police or that they arent in intense stress filled life and death situations. But because they are they should take EVERY precaution to ensure their safety and the safety of other innocent people around them.
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There was evidence that she was involved in his drug trafficking. The boyfriend, when under survellience, went to her apartment, pick up a package, and then he was followed where there later was an exchange giving the package to a known drug dealer. He also listed her address as his. It is highly unlikely that she was unaware of his drug dealing. Nevertheless, a connection was made and they were sent to investigate not to raid her apartment. That's why they didn't knock. She lived alone and there was no compelling reason to thing that she presented an immediate threat.
Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?
Why didn’t the police verify that she was being sent drugs? Police can seize a package prior to delivery and inspect it with a warrant. It happens in the private sector with UPS all the time. Do you think the government operated USPS would be more difficult to work with?
I didn’t say she was an angel. I asked what crime she committed that lead to her death. So far you’re using circumstantial evidence.
What illegal drugs are justifiable to buy and sell? Based on statements you’ve made here you have bought illegal drugs, conversed with drug dealers and made exchanges with them. So based on this “evidence” you’d have no issue with police showing up at your place using a no knock? Or do steroids not count on the same level?
Again we are arguing that the police did a good job with the investigation and made the best use of their resources, I don’t think they did. I really don’t care about the woman but I do care that our police are doing everything to be safe and above reproach. Do you not feel the same way, especially when you consider the evidence you presented for this woman is not that different than the experiences you yourself have had with illegal drugs?
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I answered the question, I have no feelings, suck a fat dick.
:'( Sounds like you’re having an extra intense period.
Also where do you get your unbiased and balanced news from champ?
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Soggy never knocks when he enters either
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:'( Sounds like you’re having an extra intense period.
Also where do you get your unbiased and balanced news from champ?
Asking you the same question...for a friend
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Asking you the same question...for a friend
Chaos already established I only use my TV for news.
Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.
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Pellius, let me start by saying I know you’re a smart guy with a good perspective based on your life’s experiences.
I asked you to set the parameters for a no knock warrant. You haven’t. You use the example of a non US citizen terrorist leader. So if Bin Laden is who we use no knock warrants for I’ll ask you if B. Taylor is in the same category? And since she isn’t what level of dangerous criminal do you rank her at? Is she an Al Capone, John Gotti or Charles Manson? Or is she just a local gang leader?
I’ve clearly explained why I think these cops did a bad job, I don’t know how I can explain it any better. They felt this was dangerous to procure a no knock warrant THEN THEY DONT USE IT AND IN THE PROCESS THEY GET SHOT AND THEN KILL THE SUSPECT BUT NOT THE SHOOTER. If they use the no knock warrant they requested and were granted we have a COMPLETELY different situation on our hands.
I’m not saying they were wrong to return fire, but I will say they were wrong to not use body cameras. If they did we could EASILY eliminate any arguments that they did not announce themselves, or the response that the residents asked who was there and they never responded. Why have body cameras, or dash cameras, and not use them?
If you, or anyone else, think these guys did a good job in this situation then we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sorry I spoke for you, I would assume looking at the facts it would only require common sense to realize they walked into the situation poorly prepared.
Also at no point did I say or imply that resisting the police was an option. This is always a dumb choice and it will cost you, it’s an encounter you will never win in the moment.
I also never said I’m against police or that they arent in intense stress filled life and death situations. But because they are they should take EVERY precaution to ensure their safety and the safety of other innocent people around them.
You want me to give you specific parameters that will justify a no knock warrant. Really? How about if there is evidence that the suspect will shoot you. But my argument, addressing the topic of this thread, was that no-knock warrants should not be completely ruled out. And you are asking me if I put Bin Laden and Taylor in the same category? Why would you ask such a stupid question? Especially when I was agonizingly specific in Taylor's involvement. When did I even remotely imply that I thought they were and what does that have to do with the new argument that you seem to be presenting, that they should have issued a no-knock warrant? And, no, I don't have have a specific ranking system for the varying degrees of dangers and risks. Do you? But it doesn't take a genius to figure out if Charles Manson, Bin Laden, or Satan, that Taylor doesn't quite match up to them.
Your expanation as to why they did a bad job was that they DID knock. I explained to you why they didn't. Taylor did not appear to pose an imminent threat. She lived alone, worked two jobs, no history of violence. She was termed a "soft target" to use the parlance of LE. There was no SWAT team prepared for a gun battle. It was plain clothes officers issuing a warrant. By your reasoning, every warrant served should be a no-knock raid which would do little to quell tensions against LE. It should be noted that they were assigned to serve four warrants at different locations and the '"no-knock" order was rubber stamped/copy/paste on the warrants which is generally against standard protocol. Sloppy if not an outright violation. This is not the police's fault. The police claimed that after the warrants were issued they were told to disregard the no-knock instructions because there was no evidence the suspect would shoot or destroy evidence which is part of the criteria for no-knock warrants. Remember, the very reason why the media wanted to promote the lie that it was a no-knock warrant because that is a much more aggressive tactic which would promote the image that the media and the Left want to portray as the police being violent and trigger happy. It would have implicated the police as such busting the door down of a young girl, living alone, working two jobs as an EMT.
And not having all the equipment you deem necessary is not the officer's fault. Still, the majority of departments don't have body cams on them. That's still a relatively new thing.
And if you think it is just common sense that the police were wrong then you are in the minority and it is not common sense. After all, they were acquitted. So even legally they did nothing wrong. Could it have been done better? Sure? Everything can be done better. But none of this wouldn't have happened if her current boyfriend, also a drug dealer, didn't shoot at the officers.
Also at no point did I say or imply that you approve of resisting the police as an option. I don't know where you got that impression.
Police are human beings and cannot always be perfect but none of this would have happened if they just opened the door when the police showed up. Instead, he shot at them. How would body cams have changed that?
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Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?
Why didn’t the police verify that she was being sent drugs? Police can seize a package prior to delivery and inspect it with a warrant. It happens in the private sector with UPS all the time. Do you think the government operated USPS would be more difficult to work with?
I didn’t say she was an angel. I asked what crime she committed that lead to her death. So far you’re using circumstantial evidence.
What illegal drugs are justifiable to buy and sell? Based on statements you’ve made here you have bought illegal drugs, conversed with drug dealers and made exchanges with them. So based on this “evidence” you’d have no issue with police showing up at your place using a no knock? Or do steroids not count on the same level?
Again we are arguing that the police did a good job with the investigation and made the best use of their resources, I don’t think they did. I really don’t care about the woman but I do care that our police are doing everything to be safe and above reproach. Do you not feel the same way, especially when you consider the evidence you presented for this woman is not that different than the experiences you yourself have had with illegal drugs?
I misspoke, they DID knock but I do find it odd that now that you thought it was a no-knock warrant you now change your argument to again find fault with the police.
"Circumstantial evidence" is still evidence. It's is taken into account. A known drug dealer picks up a pack from his girlfriend and then gives it to another known drug dealer. Connect the dots. Remember, that always is the charge when LE doesn't catch something. Like the 911 bombings. Only after the fact so many were saying why didn't they "connect the dots". Arabs only wanting to learn how to fly but not land the planes. Circumstantial evidence. Connect the dots. Nobody is wiser than the Monday morning quarterback. And as far as I know, she wasn't charged with any crime. She was being investigated.
I believe drugs should me legal for adults so that point is moot.
I don't know how much more things could have been done better. They went to the door, knocked and identified themselves, they got no answer so they broke in, they got shot at, they shot back. To say they should have had body cams changes nothing. You would just get to see them being shot at and them shooting. You believe, at leat initially, that they should not have knocked but now you are changing your argument and say they shouldn't have gotten a no-knock warrant. You ignore the fact that they were later told, after the warrant but before they went to her home that she was considered a soft target and to ignore the no-knock warrant.
When you start changing your argument, which curiously is always geared toward portraying the police as the bad guys, you lose credibility.
None of this would have happened if they just opened the door and went with the program. Why don't you think they bear any of the responsibility of what happened? He shot at them FFS!
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You want me to give you specific parameters that will justify a no knock warrant. Really? How about if there is evidence that the suspect will shoot you. But my argument, addressing the topic of this thread, was that no-knock warrants should not be completely ruled out. And you are asking me if I put Bin Laden and Taylor in the same category? Why would you ask such a stupid question? Especially when I was agonizingly specific in Taylor's involvement. When did I even remotely imply that I thought they were and what does that have to do with the new argument that you seem to be presenting, that they should have issued a no-knock warrant? And, no, I don't have have a specific ranking system for the varying degrees of dangers and risks. Do you? But it doesn't take a genius to figure out if Charles Manson, Bin Laden, or Satan, that Taylor doesn't quite match up to them.
Your expanation as to why they did a bad job was that they DID knock. I explained to you why they didn't. Taylor did not appear to pose an imminent threat. She lived alone, worked two jobs, no history of violence. She was termed a "soft target" to use the parlance of LE. There was no SWAT team prepared for a gun battle. It was plain clothes officers issuing a warrant. By your reasoning, every warrant served should be a no-knock raid which would do little to quell tensions against LE. It should be noted that they were assigned to serve four warrants at different locations and the '"no-knock" order was rubber stamped/copy/paste on the warrants which is generally against standard protocol. Sloppy if not an outright violation. This is not the police's fault. The police claimed that after the warrants were issued they were told to disregard the no-knock instructions because there was no evidence the suspect would shoot or destroy evidence which is part of the criteria for no-knock warrants. Remember, the very reason why the media wanted to promote the lie that it was a no-knock warrant because that is a much more aggressive tactic which would promote the image that the media and the Left want to portray as the police being violent and trigger happy. It would have implicated the police as such busting the door down of a young girl, living alone, working two jobs as an EMT.
And not having all the equipment you deem necessary is not the officer's fault. Still, the majority of departments don't have body cams on them. That's still a relatively new thing.
And if you think it is just common sense that the police were wrong then you are in the minority and it is not common sense. After all, they were acquitted. So even legally they did nothing wrong. Could it have been done better? Sure? Everything can be done better. But none of this wouldn't have happened if her current boyfriend, also a drug dealer, didn't shoot at the officers.
Also at no point did I say or imply that you approve of resisting the police as an option. I don't know where you got that impression.
Police are human beings and cannot always be perfect but none of this would have happened if they just opened the door when the police showed up. Instead, he shot at them. How would body cams have changed that?
Dude, you used bin laden as an example. If comparing the two is stupid you should realize you were the one who made it. Bin Laden, shot by marines on a covert operation. You said police should be allowed to use a no knock in that case. You also asked if it was it justified to use no knocks for Bin Laden so obviously you had parameters in mind. Dope.
They had a no knock warrant. It was issued to them. Please check your facts, you can’t even keep your arguments straight. On post you say they have it the next you say they don’t.
So she wasn’t a threat but the police obtained a no knock warrant, which are used for very specific instances to capture dangerous criminals.....
I realize you’ve never been wrong on the internet. I’m not going to change your opinion or am I going to rehash the same thoughts that you repeatedly can’t comprehend.
This is isn’t a left or right issue, it’s police doing a job to the best of their ability to protect and serve. Two men were reassigned and one lost his job, you must think that happened because of the left pressuring the police department, not because the police determined these officers did their job poorly and put lives at risk. Which is a problem in itself because if you think that then the police shouldn’t cower to media pressure and if it isn’t then maybe the police department actually believes their officers did a bad job.
I hope your life is filled with these same type of incompetent people who deal with every aspect of your personal life so when they cost you time, money and cause you a great deal of frustration you can remember they’re just people.
God bless brother.
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I misspoke, they DID knock but I do find it odd that now that you thought it was a no-knock warrant you now change your argument to again find fault with the police.
"Circumstantial evidence" is still evidence. It's is taken into account. A known drug dealer picks up a pack from his girlfriend and then gives it to another known drug dealer. Connect the dots. Remember, that always is the charge when LE doesn't catch something. Like the 911 bombings. Only after the fact so many were saying why didn't they "connect the dots". Arabs only wanting to learn how to fly but not land the planes. Circumstantial evidence. Connect the dots. Nobody is wiser than the Monday morning quarterback. And as far as I know, she wasn't charged with any crime. She was being investigated.
I believe drugs should me legal for adults so that point is moot.
I don't know how much more things could have been done better. They went to the door, knocked and identified themselves, they got no answer so they broke in, they got shot at, they shot back. To say they should have had body cams changes nothing. You would just get to see them being shot at and them shooting. You believe, at leat initially, that they should not have knocked but now you are changing your argument and say they shouldn't have gotten a no-knock warrant. You ignore the fact that they were later told, after the warrant but before they went to her home that she was considered a soft target and to ignore the no-knock warrant.
When you start changing your argument, which curiously is always geared toward portraying the police as the bad guys, you lose credibility.
None of this would have happened if they just opened the door and went with the program. Why don't you think they bear any of the responsibility of what happened? He shot at them FFS!
Dude.... I’ve ALWAYS SAID THEY HAD A NO KNOCK WARRANT AND IF THEY USED IT this whole scenario doesn’t happen. I’ve never changed that opinion. I’ve also said they should have used body cameras. They should have taken advantage of every tool available for the safety of everyone involved.
They did not. Apparently their boss felt the same way.
You love to argue for the sake of argument.
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Dude, you used bin laden as an example. If comparing the two is stupid you should realize you were the one who made it. Bin Laden, shot by marines on a covert operation. You said police should be allowed to use a no knock in that case. You also asked if it was it justified to use no knocks for Bin Laden so obviously you had parameters in mind. Dope.
They had a no knock warrant. It was issued to them. Please check your facts, you can’t even keep your arguments straight. On post you say they have it the next you say they don’t.
So she wasn’t a threat but the police obtained a no knock warrant, which are used for very specific instances to capture dangerous criminals.....
I realize you’ve never been wrong on the internet. I’m not going to change your opinion or am I going to rehash the same thoughts that you repeatedly can’t comprehend.
This is isn’t a left or right issue, it’s police doing a job to the best of their ability to protect and serve. Two men were reassigned and one lost his job, you must think that happened because of the left pressuring the police department, not because the police determined these officers did their job poorly and put lives at risk. Which is a problem in itself because if you think that then the police shouldn’t cower to media pressure and if it isn’t then maybe the police department actually believes their officers did a bad job.
I hope your life is filled with these same type of incompetent people who deal with every aspect of your personal life so when they cost you time, money and cause you a great deal of frustration you can remember they’re just people.
God bless brother.
Oh boy, I guess I give people here too much credit. I never compared Bin Laden to Taylor. You did. The initial argument was that no-knock warrants should be ended. I said that there were circumstances where it would be justified. I used Bin Laden as an obvious example thinking the circumstances would be enough. Then I had to further clarify that it doesn't matter if Bin Laden was an American or if even if he was in the U.S. I had wrongly extrapolated that someone could easily see that it was the danger of the circumstance that I was describing. And if that wasn't clear enough I switch to drug cartels to make it easier to relate to. And though I don't have a formal list of the conditions for a no knock warrants I would think it would have been obvious that I did have "parameters". And if that was obvious enough I then gave a specific parameter saying that if the police were in credible danger of being violently resisted, i.e., shot at and added destroying evidence. I don't know how much clearer, and further clarifying I can be. Maybe if I could write it in crayons it might be more understandable.
They did have a no-knock warrant. I never disputed that. I had mispoke in one of my posts and when it was pointed out i immediate admitted my mistake. Why do you ignore this? And why do you ignore the fact that the police said that the no-knock warrant was recinded because it was determined that Taylor was a soft target.
You ignore all these points because it doesn't promote your agenda. It is you who have changed your story. First making the argument that it should have been a no-knock warrant and then arguing against the police when it was treated as a knock-first warrant. Not once did you mention the fact that a known drug dealer fired first at the officer. Your anti-police bias has become obvious and your frustration at being exposed is now to attack me personally and hope that bad things happen to me.
Typical. And that's what makes it a Left and Right issue. It's how we view the world. It's a difference in perspective. You think the way you do the same reason why you are a Democrat and an Liberal. Liberals actually believe that reducing LE will help with violence and crime. Republicans and Conservatives believe the opposite. You focus more, or exclusively, on the behavior of the police. I focus on the behavior of the criminal. The one who escalated everything. The one who fired the first shots. None of this would have happened if the drug dealer didn't start shooting at the police. It's not that either of us are bad people. We want the same thing. For people to live in peace and be happy. We just see things in a different light. I think I am right. You think you are right. I wish we could replay this where in my scenario the drug dealer didn't shoot at the officer and your scenario where the police wore bodycams and just broke in without knocking.
Do you really believe in God? If so, what religion are you?
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Dude.... I’ve ALWAYS SAID THEY HAD A NO KNOCK WARRANT AND IF THEY USED IT this whole scenario doesn’t happen. I’ve never changed that opinion. I’ve also said they should have used body cameras. They should have taken advantage of every tool available for the safety of everyone involved.
They did not. Apparently their boss felt the same way.
You love to argue for the sake of argument.
"Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?"
The implications being that because she was deemed a soft target they should have had a knock-first warrant.
And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why?
And how would not knocking and just busting in change anything other than make the situation more immediately urgent?
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Oh boy, I guess I give people here too much credit. I never compared Bin Laden to Taylor. You did. The initial argument was that no-knock warrants should be ended. I said that there were circumstances where it would be justified. I used Bin Laden as an obvious example thinking the circumstances would be enough. Then I had to further clarify that it doesn't matter if Bin Laden was an American or if even if he was in the U.S. WRONG. I pointed out Bin Laden was a bad example to compare to this situation. You used him as an EXTREME example for why no knocks are needed. Was B. Taylor Louisville’s Bin Laden? What level of criminal was she?I had wrongly extrapolated that someone could easily see that it was the danger of the circumstance that I was describing. And if that wasn't clear enough I switch to drug cartels to make it easier to relate to. And though I don't have a formal list of the conditions for a no knock warrants I would think it would have been obvious that I did have "parameters"Sorry I asked you to explain yourself. You want no knocks for Bin Laden level terrorists/criminals. Fine, would B. Taylor justify a no knock warrant in this case then?. And if that was obvious enough I then gave a specific parameter saying that if the police were in credible danger of being violently resisted, i.e., shot at and added destroying evidence. I don't know how much clearer, and further clarifying I can be. Maybe if I could write it in crayons it might be more understandable. You’ve already stated you misspoke about the police having a no knock warrant. So you were not very clear. Apparently B. Taylor was such a high level drug dealer, that a no knock was issued so they could catch her with her score. But they knocked. And zero drugs were found. They must have flushed them all right?.
They did have a no-knock warrant. I never disputed that. I had mispoke in one of my posts and when it was pointed out i immediate admitted my mistake. Why do you ignore this? And why do you ignore the fact that the police said that the no-knock warrant was recinded because it was determined that Taylor was a soft target.The police DID HAVE A NO KNOCK WARRANT it was not rescinded. Please verify your statement. Hopefully this is a credible source for you:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/30/fact-check-police-had-no-knock-warrant-breonna-taylor-apartment/3235029001/
You ignore all these points because it doesn't promote your agenda. What is my agenda? That police should do the best job possible when it involves human lives? That’s an agendaIt is you who have changed your story. First making the argument that it should have been a no-knock warrant and then arguing against the police when it was treated as a knock-first warrant. Wrong. I have always said they should have used the no knock warrant issued to them. My opinion hasn’t changed. Not once did you mention the fact that a known drug dealer fired first at the officer. Please provide evidence that the boy friend in the house was a known drug dealer. Kenneth Walker, the man who shot at the police has no record of dealing drugs that I have found.Your anti-police bias has become obvious and your frustration at being exposed is now to attack me personally and hope that bad things happen to me. Wrong. I said I hope the same incompetence you justified in this case is the same incompetence you experience in your daily life. If these cops did their job correctly, which you argue that they did, explain how that is wishing bad upon you?
Typical. And that's what makes it a Left and Right issue. It's how we view the world. It's a difference in perspective. You think the way you do the same reason why you are a Democrat and an Liberal. Please don’t assume you know me. As you asked that I don’t speak for you I ask the same respect. Your attempt at character assassination is no different than those who call you a pedophileLiberals actually believe that reducing LE will help with violence and crime. Republicans and Conservatives believe the opposite. You focus more, or exclusively, on the behavior of the police. I focus on the behavior of the criminal. I have never called for reducing LE, just accountability. And to your point there were no criminals only suspects and one suspect had a legal registered gunThe one who escalated everything. The one who fired the first shots. None of this would have happened if the drug dealer didn't start shooting at the police.Please verify your statement. When was Kenneth Walker dealing drugs? It's not that either of us are bad people. We want the same thing. For people to live in peace and be happy. We just see things in a different light. I think I am right. You think you are right. I wish we could replay this where in my scenario the drug dealer didn't shoot at the officer and your scenario where the police wore bodycams and just broke in without knocking.Agreed. But now you’re saying if they police used a no knock warrant it’s breaking in? That’s not fair to assume because when I wanted the police to use the warrant type they were issued it’s a break in.
Do you really believe in God? If so, what religion are you? I do. I’ll answer your question but let me ask you was Jesus a Republican or Democrat ?
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"Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?"
The implications being that because she was deemed a soft target they should have had a knock-first warrant.
And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? the police department addressed the body cam issue. The reason they would make a difference is because it would verify the story that they identified themselves. The shooter said they DID NOT, interviewed neighbors said they did not. The 3 police serving the warrant said they did as did 1 witness. Why even have this as a dispute if you have resources that can prove the truth. Body cams also record sound. It is a good piece of equipment to verify what happened. They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why? I have pointed out that the shooter, Kenneth Walker contends the police never identified their self. He alleges they asked who is there and no one responded. I think the police did identify themselves, or why knock. Or what if they really couldn’t hear the police identify themselves over their tv, what if the shooter is being truthful? Cops aren’t above reproach, we know they changed the arrest time while serving a warrant at her ex boyfriend’s... However we now have a he said, she said issue that could have been easily disproven if body cams were worn.
And how would not knocking and just busting in change anything other than make the situation more immediately urgent? Then why ask for a no knock warrant? You explained why they’re used. If the element of surprise wouldn’t have been useful here, were police lives, as well as other residents, were put in danger, then why have them at all?
I’d also like to point out all the officers involved with this case were reassigned. If they did nothing wrong why is their department acting irrationally?
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Bodycams would verify the story but it would not change it. If they all wore bodycams nothing would have changed. Same scenario except it would have been recorded. If now you want to change the argument as to the veracity of the story that is a completely different issue.
Do you really believe that whether it was a knock or no-knock raid that the police did not identified themselves as it is standard policy? Why would you take the word of a drug dealer, who initiated the fire fight and who has every reason to lie, over the police, who would have no reason to break protocol when conducting such a raid? Can't you see, and here I think I can speak for viturally everyone reading this thread, your obvious bias against the police?
BTW, I can speak from first hand experience as I looked down a row of MP5s pointed at me that LE made it very LOUD and clear that they were LE when they pounded on my door. Everything went smoothly and peacefully as they ransack my residence as I sat in the garage chatting with the SWAT team when I recognize one of them from high school and we had a lot of mutual friends. I just went with the program though I thought they were unnecessarily rough pushing me to my knees as they cuffed me. I even asked asked one of the team members who was especially jacked where he got his gear from he just told me never to order overseas. When I posted bail and was picked up by one of the Dogg the Bounty Hunter drivers. He told me he use to be really into working out and got his juice from his roommate. He told me he planned to get back into it and if I can hook him up. He gave me his name and phone number. BTW, it was completely random that I wound up with Dogg. I never watched the show and wasn't familiar with him. When I was in jail one of the guards gave me a phone book and said to call a bail bondsman. I had no idea who to pick but one said they were Christians so I choose that one. When my brother picked me up at the office he was all giddy as he was a big fan of the show. He pointed to one guy and said, "That's Leland." I found Dogg to be quite a sight with his long hair and wrinkled face. Years later I would run into him somewhat regularly as we both went to the same HRT doctor. He remembered me. Or at least so he claimed.
Typical tactic. You simply avoid the question and present an alternative scenario. Now it's about the conditions used to justify a no-knock warrant. According to the one of the reports I have read the no-knock warrant was just rubber stamped or copy/paste on four different warrants pertaining to the same suspect. When it was discovered and deemed Taylor was a soft target it was rescinded. If there is a case where there is strong evidence that a suspect may fire upon them or get rid of evidence they would have not sent just two plain clothes policemen.
Now if they did break in through the door. The boyfriend who was armed in the other room would have still pulled his firearm and shoot at the officers. He would have had a stronger case for shooting at them. Stronger, but not strong enough because they identified themselves as the police. That's why I said nothing would have change whether it was knock, no knock, bodycams or not. Walker would have still pulled his gun and shoot them because he was and is a criminal and didn't want to get arrested.
Again you say, nothing, absolutely nothing, about the drug dealer who first fired on the police and initiated all of this. That speaks volumes of your bias and agenda.
You know, I can end this discussion right now. Just answer these two questions and state your reason why. First: Do you believe that the police did not identify themselves clearly and loudly? If you don't think they did then it ends here. Second: Do you believe that Kenneth Walker was justified in shooting at the officers, and if so, why?
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Bodycams would verify the story but it would not change it. If they all wore bodycams nothing would have changed. Same scenario except it would have been recorded. If now you want to change the argument as to the veracity of the story that is a completely different issue.Please tell me where I said, or implied, body cams would have changed an outcome. I explained why they should have had body came.
Do you really believe that whether it was a knock or no-knock raid that the police did not identified themselves as it is standard policy? I’ve addressed this multiple times. I said I believe they identified who they were. Why do you insist otherwise? Why would you take the word of a drug dealer, who initiated the fire fight and who has every reason to lie, over the police, who would have no reason to break protocol when conducting such a raid? Can't you see, and here I think I can speak for viturally everyone reading this thread, your obvious bias against the police? My bias against police is equal to your hatred of blacks then. You keep calling these people drug dealers, why? When did they deal drugs? You were a drug dealer, so are drug dealers bad?
BTW, I can speak from first hand experience as I looked down a row of MP5s pointed at me that LE made it very LOUD and clear that they were LE when they pounded on my door. Everything went smoothly and peacefully as they ransack my residence as I sat in the garage chatting with the SWAT team when I recognize one of them from high school and we had a lot of mutual friends. I just went with the program though I thought they were unnecessarily rough pushing me to my knees as they cuffed me. I even asked asked one of the team members who was especially jacked where he got his gear from he just told me never to order overseas. When I posted bail and was picked up by one of the Dogg the Bounty Hunter drivers. He told me he use to be really into working out and got his juice from his roommate. He told me he planned to get back into it and if I can hook him up. He gave me his name and phone number. BTW, it was completely random that I wound up with Dogg. I never watched the show and wasn't familiar with him. When I was in jail one of the guards gave me a phone book and said to call a bail bondsman. I had no idea who to pick but one said they were Christians so I choose that one. When my brother picked me up at the office he was all giddy as he was a big fan of the show. He pointed to one guy and said, "That's Leland." I found Dogg to be quite a sight with his long hair and wrinkled face. Years later I would run into him somewhat regularly as we both went to the same HRT doctor. He remembered me. Or at least so he claimed. Sweet story. You should teach the black community you hate so much to listen to cops and they’d be alive. I once had 10 officers waiting for me to return to work for 4 hours the day before thanksgiving, they were ready to arrest me and throw me in jail because they thought I was my father. When they asked for my ID I gladly gave it to them but I also asked why they were harassing me, it was because I had the same name as my father. I asked what would have happened if I didn’t have my id and they said they would have taken me in. I said do I look like a 50+ year old man, I was mid 20s at the time? They answered no. And I said you’d still would have taken me in? They said yes because I was the name they were looking for. I then asked why they just didn’t go to his work and arrest him there and they asked where he worked. I said have you even talked with his po, because he has to report it to him.... long story short they left in a hurrry to go to my fathers work. I immediately call two of my friends on the force and ask if they had heard I was going to be arrested, they laughed and said yes and explained that I wasn’t the guy they were looking for, but the other officers had it on good authority I was. I’ve never used drugs or sold them. But everyone at my work had an opinion on what I did. A little double checking by the 10 cops who came to my work would have saved me the embarrassment and the community over time charges
Typical tactic. You simply avoid the question and present an alternative scenario. Now it's about the conditions used to justify a no-knock warrant. According to the one of the reports I have read the no-knock warrant was just rubber stamped or copy/paste on four different warrants pertaining to the same suspect. When it was discovered and deemed Taylor was a soft target it was rescinded. If there is a case where there is strong evidence that a suspect may fire upon them or get rid of evidence they would have not sent just two plain clothes policemen. Cool story, I provided a link that said they had a no knock warrant you say you read otherwise. I’m literally sharing the information I have that explains why I’ve formed my opinion, you continue to attack that opinion, reference articles you read but don’t share them..... thanks for your help. BTW I didn’t avoid a question but you have ignored many. You set the parameters for a no knock, again going to an extreme with bin laden and all I did was ask if B. Taylor fit your example. She doesn’t, but instead you say I change the scenarios.
Now if they did break in through the door. The boyfriend who was armed in the other room would have still pulled his firearm and shoot at the officers. He would have had a stronger case for shooting at them. Stronger, but not strong enough because they identified themselves as the police. That's why I said nothing would have change whether it was knock, no knock, bodycams or not. Walker would have still pulled his gun and shoot them because he was and is a criminal and didn't want to get arrested.ok. Where have you read Walker is a criminal? At one point you said the police weren’t expecting anyone else there but now you’re making it seem like they knew a violent criminal was waiting for them. As a fellow criminal do you carry a licensed firearm?
Again you say, nothing, absolutely nothing, about the drug dealer who first fired on the police and initiated all of this. That speaks volumes of your bias and agenda. I’ve asked plenty of times to prove he’s a drug dealer. I said they should have shot and killed him as opposed to B.Taylor. I’ve said if they had body cams they would have concrete proof that he lied about them not announcing themselves. I’ve also said I believe the police announced who they were if they knocked on the door. I said there is a plausible chance Walker did not hear them identify who they were. What more should I say
You know, I can end this discussion right now. Just answer these two questions and state your reason why. First: Do you believe that the police did not identify themselves clearly and loudly? If you don't think they did then it ends here. I never said they didn’t. Read what I wrote not what you want to believe I’m saying. Ive only argued they didn’t use the best tools they had, which was a no knock warrant. Knocking on the door and waiting 60 seconds gave Walker time to grab and aim his gun. Kicking the door in eliminates that time. If there’s illegal drugs being dealt it’s very safe to assume there will be armed bad guys. Second: Do you believe that Kenneth Walker was justified in shooting at the officers, and if so, why? I haven’t given thought to this question. Let’s say his story is true, he didn’t know what was happening, the door is kicked in so he starts firing... I don’t think his story is true. But I’m willing to bet at midnight in what I’m assuming is a bad neighborhood, in an apartment where drugs are allegedly being moved from there is a strong possibility he thought this was a stick up and not a raid. If he knowingly fired on cops then I hope he never gets out. As it is he will have to live with getting his girlfriend killed. If he doesn’t use his gun she’s alive today and at worst they suffer the “injustice” of being falsely accused.
Do you think Walker shouldn’t have been allowed to be a gun owner? We talk a big game on here about what we would do if anyone tried to take away our legal right to defend our homes, this guy acts like a getbigger so he should be celebrated here. But we hate blacks.
Let me ask you do you really believe these officers did even a decent job that evening? We know they could have done better. That was also the decision their department decided after this fiasco.
I never said Taylor was a saint. Depending on what you read she was either a complete low life or struggling young woman trying to overcome her past. I’m sure the truth is in the middle.
Based on her associates she was likely going to die young, so her violent death is not unexpected but it’s fair to say she would be alive today if the police used better judgment when executing the warrant.
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I have been in law enforcement since I was 19 years old in some capacity. Going to college I was admin records years before I could even obtain a police license.
I have had just about every experience, in damn near any capacity you can think of....including no knocks.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have been 100% against no know warrants since I started! I have always been a person who can see shit objectively, and if someone barges into my house unannounced in the middle of the night? I’m leaving a pile of bodies and I’m probably dead too.
A lot of people don’t know this but even feds have rules about this shit! I’ve been part of federal task force in this country and the Middle East...feds do not do night time raids unless it’s a exigent hostage situation.
No knock warrants are bad news, and unless it’s a barricaded active shooter, or hostage situation in my opinion you should not do a no knock.
Bench
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The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/)
Yes, but that a whole other problem.
Then in this case you have someone just screaming incoherently at the door while kicking it...it’s just as bad as a no knock. I have been in that situation many times and it’s a fine line between no knock and knock and announce.
Most agencies have polices where you announce via loud speaker and give at least 30 seconds before making entry.
Bench
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Fuck Breonna taylor,fuck George Floyd and fuck the rest of them as well.
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
It's not a crime to the media if it's black on white.
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The element of surprise preserves evidence and increases officer safety. You want criminals to have a chance to load their guns and flush their stash and get organized what else should we do for them make sure all the lights are on so they can aim better?
It does but then so could a device placed in the drains that catches flushed drugs. Or a device that blocks the drains before the raid.
It's all about the greater good. People getting killed vs drug dealers flushing away some evidence.
Just needs to be figured out rationally.
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I have been in law enforcement since I was 19 years old in some capacity. Going to college I was admin records years before I could even obtain a police license.
I have had just about every experience, in damn near any capacity you can think of....including no knocks.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have been 100% against no know warrants since I started! I have always been a person who can see shit objectively, and if someone barges into my house unannounced in the middle of the night? I’m leaving a pile of bodies and I’m probably dead too.
A lot of people don’t know this but even feds have rules about this shit! I’ve been part of federal task force in this country and the Middle East...feds do not do night time raids unless it’s a exigent hostage situation.
No knock warrants are bad news, and unless it’s a barricaded active shooter, or hostage situation in my opinion you should not do a no knock.
Bench
There are two people who proposed, at least initially, that there should be never be no-knock warrants. One is the OP, which is what started this whole thread, and the other is you, an experienced person in LE. I disagreed and said that option should always be left open. You should not categorically take it off the table.
Here is what the OP said in his first post, "I think we HAVE to end the no-knock warrant." Then later he says, "First - I have to say that I WAS WRONG about the Taylor issue being a “no knock”...But - I will never agree for them in anything other than the rarest of circumstances.
The OP has not responded to question about the seeming contradiction.
You say, "I have been 100% against no know warrants since I started!" Then later in the same post you say, "No knock warrants are bad news, and unless it’s a barricaded active shooter, or hostage situation."
Again, there seems to be an inherent contradiction.
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
Yup, i remember it was only a big deal in Houston.
If my front/back door/window gets breached, i'm not asking questions and unloading my SKS down the hallway at anything that moves. It's pretty rare for a no knock raid to be on the wrong house, but i'm not waiting around to find out.
I'm against no knock raids for this reason; unless it's some serious life or death shit with some VERY accurate intelligence, not happening.
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Yup, i remember it was only a big deal in Houston.
If my front/back door/window gets breached, i'm not asking questions and unloading my SKS down the hallway at anything that moves. It's pretty rare for a no knock raid to be on the wrong house, but i'm not waiting around to find out.
I'm against no knock raids for this reason; unless it's some serious life or death shit with some VERY accurate intelligence, not happening.
SKS. I remember when the Soviet Union fell the market was flooded with those rifles. I got mine for about $50. Love just plinking with it in the mountains. I got pretty good loading it with stripper clips but couldn't imagine trying to do that in times of war. Thank god for the AK. The semi-auto version, they called it the MAK 9 when I bought it was only around $85. That would be my backup to the AR in times of riot though the Benelli semi-auto shotgun would be my first choice to protect home and property. Rifle bullets go far and I wouldn't want any innocents to get caught up in the cross fire.
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
Then there's this case too, one of too many. The cops murdered an innocent couple, Dennis Tuttle -a US Navy veteran- and his wife Rhogena Nicholas inside their own home in Houston during a no knock raid. A cop lied to obtain the warrant, no drugs were found and the cops also tampered with evidence.
But of course there were no riots, no looting, no social media hashtags, no t-shirts or graffiti on walls. Why would that be? Possibly this:
The victims:
(https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/IECRX7VPB4I6TFARUYEPTUGC2M.jpg)
The cop:
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/07/07/56/18643846/9/920x920.jpg)
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SKS. I remember when the Soviet Union fell the market was flooded with those rifles. I got mine for about $50. Love just plinking with it in the mountains. I got pretty good loading it with stripper clips but couldn't imagine trying to do that in times of war. Thank god for the AK. The semi-auto version, they called it the MAK 9 when I bought it was only around $85. That would be my backup to the AR in times of riot though the Benelli semi-auto shotgun would be my first choice to protect home and property. Rifle bullets go far and I wouldn't want any innocents to get caught up in the cross fire.
It's one of my favorites and i have a few to choose from. I like AK's and AR's too, built a few AR's.
It sits near my bed on one side, 12 G on the other with 3" magnums 00 buckshot. ;D
The way my house is laid out i know which directions i can use it; yes i'd defer to the 12g unless i felt i needed more. Based on crime statics, the average number of people to rob a house is 4, so i don't want to leave any chances.
Where i live now i seriously doubt i'd ever need it, but i like guns so might as well have a few available to play with.
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You specified two things that you feel the police did wrong: that it should have been a no-knock warrant and that they should have worn bodycams. The implications is that if they had did those two things the outcome may have been different. Since we both agree that wearing bodycams would not have changed the outcome then the only other thing you think the police did wrong was not doing a no-knock entry. This may have changed the outcome but most believe, including an experience LE officer who has done this whole life, disagrees. This was considered a soft target and there was no evidence that she presented a threat. The police did nothing wrong by knocking and announcing themselves.
I never "insisted" that you didn't. You just made that up. I wanted to be crystal clear as to your stand on whether or not you believe the police announced themselves. It makes all the difference to what transpired.
Typical of a Liberal. Always making everything a matter of race. Never did I mention race nor do I believe it was pertinent to the case and never even implied it was a factor. There was a thread on here about Thomas Sowell in which I remarked that he is the most influential person in my life in forming my thinking and world view. His student, Walter Williams, whose articles I read weekly, is another one. Both happen to be Black. But I respect your honesty in admitting your bias against the police.
I never denied they had a no-knock warrant. Again you just made that up. In fact, I specified that it was later rescinded when it was determined that Taylor was a soft target. I answer all your questions point by point as I am doing now. I just thought it was so absurdly preposterous to even ask a question equating Bin Laden and Breanna Taylor. Some questions are so patently silly that it doesn't deserve a serious answer.
I read in the news, where I get all my information on this case just as you do, that Kenneth Walker was a drug dealer. I just read an article by the Washington Post
titled, Correcting the misinformation about Breanna Taylor; saying that is false. So I take back that accusation. I don't see how it changes anything.
Again, I wanted to establish beyond any doubt that you believe the police announce themselves as it makes all the difference in how you answer the second, more important question. I find it very, very odd that in regard to whether or not you believe Walker was justified in shooting at the police you replied, "I haven’t given thought to this question.". The one thing that cause this entire mess you haven't given any thought to. Your only focus was on the police. Now it is clear why in all of this back and forth you never once addressed Walker firing at the police. The one and only thing that caused all of this. Again, your bias against the police is put glaringly on display.
I cannot comment if I think Walker should have been allowed to carry a gun because I have no idea his past history. I believe that every law abiding citizen over 21 years old should be allow to own and carry a gun.
As I believe they were correct in issuing a knock first warrant, announcing themselves, and then were fired upon, I don't know what else they could have done other than being better shooters.
I made no comment or judgements regarding Taylor. I don't know why you bring this up. Only a precious few are Saints but my impression is given that she was working two jobs as an EMT and studying to be a nurse was that she was probably an above average decent and nice person.
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It's one of my favorites and i have a few to choose from. I like AK's and AR's too, built a few AR's.
It sits near my bed on one side, 12 G on the other with 3" magnums 00 buckshot. ;D
The way my house is laid out i know which directions i can use it; yes i'd defer to the 12g unless i felt i needed more. Based on crime statics, the average number of people to rob a house is 4, so i don't want to leave any chances.
Where i live now i seriously doubt i'd ever need it, but i like guns so might as well have a few available to play with.
During the LA riots I was living in Inglewood, CA a primary Black neighborhood and they were out on the streets looking for trouble. I didn't have a Benelli at the time but did have a Remington 870. I intentionally loaded it with bird shot and planned to shoot low as a warning that I was armed, willing to shoot, but I didn't want to injure or kill anybody. I never want to shoot anybody because that's when the trouble in you life starts and it will follow you around for the rest of your life. I just wanted to protect myself and property. But I would warn warn them that a 7.62 rifle round would be coming next. I also had a Ruger P-89 as a side arm in case my rifle jammed.
They wisely bypassed my apartment complex where there were other neighbors that were also armed.
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Barkley tells the truth and gets shit on for it.
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During the LA riots I was living in Inglewood, CA a primary Black neighborhood and they were out on the streets looking for trouble. I didn't have a Benelli at the time but did have a Remington 870. I intentionally loaded it with bird shot and planned to shoot low as a warning that I was armed, willing to shoot, but I didn't want to injure or kill anybody. I never want to shoot anybody because that's when the trouble in you life starts and it will follow you around for the rest of your life. I just wanted to protect myself and property. But I would warn warn them that a 7.62 rifle round would be coming next. I also had a Ruger P-89 as a side arm in case my rifle jammed.
They wisely bypassed my apartment complex where there were other neighbors that were also armed.
I have an 870 pump as well; i've had it for a long time.
I would never fire at anyone unless it was life or death, but once you cross the threshold of my house i'd rather spend $40k on a attorney and a couple years in court than die.
My thoughts are once something like this happens everything would happen so fast and panic would set in, i'd have to have my mind made up already or i'd freeze up. If someone is inside my house unannounced, well that sucks for them.
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You specified two things that you feel the police did wrong: that it should have been a no-knock warrant and that they should have worn bodycams. The implications is that if they had did those two things the outcome may have been different. Since we both agree that wearing bodycams would not have changed the outcome then the only other thing you think the police did wrong was not doing a no-knock entry. This may have changed the outcome but most believe, including an experience LE officer who has done this whole life, disagrees. This was considered a soft target and there was no evidence that she presented a threat. The police did nothing wrong by knocking and announcing themselves.
I never "insisted" that you didn't. You just made that up. I wanted to be crystal clear as to your stand on whether or not you believe the police announced themselves. It makes all the difference to what transpired.
Typical of a Liberal. Always making everything a matter of race. Never did I mention race nor do I believe it was pertinent to the case and never even implied it was a factor. There was a thread on here about Thomas Sowell in which I remarked that he is the most influential person in my life in forming my thinking and world view. His student, Walter Williams, whose articles I read weekly, is another one. Both happen to be Black. But I respect your honesty in admitting your bias against the police.
I never denied they had a no-knock warrant. Again you just made that up. In fact, I specified that it was later rescinded when it was determined that Taylor was a soft target. I answer all your questions point by point as I am doing now. I just thought it was so absurdly preposterous to even ask a question equating Bin Laden and Breanna Taylor. Some questions are so patently silly that it doesn't deserve a serious answer.
I read in the news, where I get all my information on this case just as you do, that Kenneth Walker was a drug dealer. I just read an article by the Washington Post
titled, Correcting the misinformation about Breanna Taylor; saying that is false. So I take back that accusation. I don't see how it changes anything.
Again, I wanted to establish beyond any doubt that you believe the police announce themselves as it makes all the difference in how you answer the second, more important question. I find it very, very odd that in regard to whether or not you believe Walker was justified in shooting at the police you replied, "I haven’t given thought to this question.". The one thing that cause this entire mess you haven't given any thought to. Your only focus was on the police. Now it is clear why in all of this back and forth you never once addressed Walker firing at the police. The one and only thing that caused all of this. Again, your bias against the police is put glaringly on display.
I cannot comment if I think Walker should have been allowed to carry a gun because I have no idea his past history. I believe that every law abiding citizen over 21 years old should be allow to own and carry a gun.
As I believe they were correct in issuing a knock first warrant, announcing themselves, and then were fired upon, I don't know what else they could have done other than being better shooters.
I made no comment or judgements regarding Taylor. I don't know why you bring this up. Only a precious few are Saints but my impression is given that she was working two jobs as an EMT and studying to be a nurse was that she was probably an above average decent and nice person.
You’re a joke. I can’t read your nonsense anymore. You called Taylor and walker drug dealers but then say you made no judgements towards them? Lol ok.
You make false accusations then try and turn the tables.
I’m a liberal cop hater who wants to defund the police and you’re a sexual deviant who hates blacks, engages in street fights with the mentally ill and homeless but then runs from police hiding on the bus and thinks cops are above reproach in this case. Are you satisfied?
I’m sure you’re a fun guy to be around.
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You’re a joke. I can’t read your nonsense anymore. You called Taylor and walker drug dealers but then say you made no judgements towards them? Lol ok.
You make false accusations then try and turn the tables.
I’m a liberal cop hater who wants to defund the police and you’re a sexual deviant who hates blacks, engages in street fights with the mentally ill and homeless but then runs from police hiding on the bus and thinks cops are above reproach in this case. Are you satisfied?
I’m sure you’re a fun guy to be around.
Calling yourself a liberal cop-hater is being redundant.
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
Bench thanks for your service and your perspective.
Why would the police issue a warrant at midnight for a low risk target? I know the obvious answer is because they were issuing a high risk warrant at a known acquaintances residence but I ask because I’m not convinced these guys executed the warrant in the safest manner possible (this is based only on the public evidence I read). Am I off base with this opinion?
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Calling yourself a liberal cop-hater is being redundant.
Those are Pellius words not mine.
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You’re a joke. I can’t read your nonsense anymore. You called Taylor and walker drug dealers but then say you made no judgements towards them? Lol ok.
You make false accusations then try and turn the tables.
I’m a liberal cop hater who wants to defund the police and you’re a sexual deviant who hates blacks, engages in street fights with the mentally ill and homeless but then runs from police hiding on the bus and thinks cops are above reproach in this case. Are you satisfied?
I’m sure you’re a fun guy to be around.
LOL! You Liberals are so predictable. I read you like a cheap comic book. You ask these long drawn out question, each of which I give you the courtesy of answering point by point. You can't answer them changing the subject to the personal character of Taylor and Walker. I called Walker a drug dealer but admitted I was wrong when I got further information. I said that Taylor received a package for her ex-boyfriend. I never commented about her personal decency until my last post. But this has nothing to do with the debate on hand.
Pointing out how astonishing and shallow you are not to even consider the intention and justification of Walker shooting at the police, the one act that change everything and brought us where we are today, exposed you as just not a very clear and honest thinker. Realizing that you are losing the argument and getting brutally owned you then resort to personal attacks and go on a tantrum.
Keeping with my policy in this post of answering all your questions, I will say that, yes, I am satisfied. Another Liberal exposed as foolish, naive, emotional, racist, and wrong.
It's been fun. I do expect you to come back and try to desperately save face like your kind always do. But I'll continue to verbally slap you around until you finally throw a final personal insult, give me a verbal middle finger, and then slink away -- defeated.
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Those are Pellius words not mine.
Those are base on your actions and statements. Not mine.
You, and your kind, are destroying this country. Me, and my kind, are trying to save it.
MAGA!
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Those are base on your actions and statements. Not mine.
You, and your kind, are destroying this country. Me, and my kind, are trying to save it.
MAGA!
Pellius the conservative who wants drugs legal and sex with minor teens,
Your words not mine.
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Pellius the conservative who wants drugs legal and sex with minor teens,
Your words not mine.
Ah, I knew you would be back. Yes, I do want drugs legalize for adults. I specifically stated many times that I don't believe sex with minors should be legal. Again you just made that up and can't prove it. I can prove where I said many times that I am against adults having sex with minors. But that's what Liberals do, that's what your kind does, they just tell blatant lies and resort to personal attacks because they always lose in an honest debate.
You act like you are talking to the board and think anyone agrees with you regarding the latter charge. That has already been summarily dismissed. The only time it is brought up is when I am destroying someone in an argument and they have nothing left.
Your tacit admission of your defeat is clearly evident.
I look forward to your future whining and meltdowns.
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Ah, I knew you would be back. Yes, I do want drugs legalize for adults. I specifically stated many times that I don't believe sex with minors should be legal. Again you just made that up and can't prove it. I can prove where I said many times that I am against adults having sex with minors. But that's what Liberals do, that's what your kind does, they just tell blatant lies and resort to personal attacks because they always lose in an honest debate.
You act like you are talking to the board and think anyone agrees with you regarding the latter charge. That has already been summarily dismissed. The only time it is brought up is when I am destroying someone in an argument and they have nothing left.
Your tacit admission of your defeat is clearly evident.
I look forward to your future whining and meltdowns.
Tldr.
MELTDOWN
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Tldr.
MELTDOWN
Translation: "Getting owned. Rendered speechless. Follows every word I say."
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Translation: "Getting owned. Rendered speechless. Follows every word I say."
Im Pellius. I think Im an intellectual, I think im owning people when they respond to my posts directed to them!
#owned #iknowallandcantseeoutsideofmyviewpoint
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LOL! You Liberals are so predictable. I read you like a cheap comic book. You ask these long drawn out question, each of which I give you the courtesy of answering point by point. You can't answer them changing the subject to the personal character of Taylor and Walker. I called Walker a drug dealer but admitted I was wrong when I got further information.wron, you continually called him a drug dealer. Please show me where you said you were wrong I said that Taylor received a package for her ex-boyfriend. I never commented about her personal decency until my last post. But this has nothing to do with the debate on hand.a package from her ex, remind me of what crime that is?
Pointing out how astonishing and shallow you are not to even consider the intention and justification of Walker shooting at the police, the one act that change everything and brought us where we are today, exposed you as just not a very clear and honest thinker. Realizing that you are losing the argument and getting brutally owned you then resort to personal attacks and go on a tantrum.wrong you did the personal attack I responded in kind. I gave an honest opinion, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I hope when you're in a situation where door is kicked in you make it out alive
Keeping with my policy in this post of answering all your questions, I will say that, yes, I am satisfied. Another Liberal exposed as foolish, naive, emotional, racist, and wrong.wrong. You're the racist liberal. And a gaslighter. Childish behavior indeed
It's been fun. I do expect you to come back and try to desperately save face like your kind always do. But I'll continue to verbally slap you around until you finally throw a final personal insult, give me a verbal middle finger, and then slink away -- defeated.Pellius i gave honest thoughful answers, with credible links to why I formed my opinions. You countered my every point without doing the same. You try to recant what you say and imply that I said something different or you corrected a statement. Your posts are here for all to read. I did not insult you until you insulted me multiple times. You want to discredit my opinions with slander and not facts. And because I tire of this worthless interaction you say you owned me..... congratulations. Continue with your delusional autistic posts.
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Im Pellius. I think Im an intellectual, I think im owning people when they respond to my posts directed to them!
#owned #iknowallandcantseeoutsideofmyviewpoint
The final thrashing around and death rattle of another defeated Liberal.
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wron, you continually called him a drug dealer. Please show me where you said you were wrong
You reading comprehension and memory seems to be sorely lacking.
I read in the news, where I get all my information on this case just as you do, that Kenneth Walker was a drug dealer. I just read an article by the Washington Post
titled, Correcting the misinformation about Breanna Taylor; saying that is false. So I take back that accusation. I don't see how it changes anything.[/b]
a package from her ex, remind me of what crime that is?
I never said it was a crime. Classic Liberal. Reading into and embellishing statements to suit their own agenda.
wrong you did the personal attack I responded in kind. I gave an honest opinion, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I hope when you're in a situation where door is kicked in you make it out alive
Nope, show me where I started personal attacks and name calling. You brought up the subject of race and your bias against cops is clearly evident and not a personal attack and name calling. Here's where you broke down, realizing you were exposed and all your arguments countered and nullified, so you lashed out.
You’re a joke. I can’t read your nonsense anymore. You called Taylor and walker drug dealers but then say you made no judgements towards them? Lol ok.
You make false accusations then try and turn the tables.
I’m a liberal cop hater who wants to defund the police and you’re a sexual deviant who hates blacks, engages in street fights with the mentally ill and homeless but then runs from police hiding on the bus and thinks cops are above reproach in this case.
BTW, I just earlier TODAY, I described in detail that I was indeed raided and because I went with the program, didn't resist -- let alone shoot at anybody, everything went fine. My case was later dismissed and I was let go without serving time, paying any fine, or any criminal record.
You really have to work on your reading skills, comprehension, and just memory. This is now twice where I had to quote my posts to jog your memory. I mean, it was only hours ago.
wrong. You're the racist liberal. And a gaslighter. Childish behavior indeed
Oh brother, now you are just melting down throwing anything and hoping that it sticks. Whether people on this board hate me or like me they are laughing at you calling me a liberal. And it's only you that brought up race, like all Liberals do. I never
mentioned it because it wasn't pertinent to the debate.
I know what you are doing even if you don't know yourself. I've been going at it with guys like you on this board for over 15 years. You were the one that engaged me in a debate. You got more and more frustrated and angry as you realize that you were not coming off well. Your anti-cop bias became clearly evident as that was your entire focus. Never once did you mention the very person who caused all this. You even admitted that you just never gave it any thought. Imagine that. Someone shoots at a cop and you never gave that fact any thought or consideration. Defeated, you now resort to name calling and personal attacks. You've witnessed me crush challenger after challenger for years but you vow to yourself that you are going to be different.
You're not going to let Pellius make you look like the delusional bias Liberal that you are. Now you are at the final stages of defeat: limping, dejected, desperate, and humiliated. So now you are just flailing around pointlessly hoping for a way out with some shred of dignity intact.
Everything that needed to be said has already been said. Leave it to others to decide which side of the argument they think is more credible. Don't make me give you anymore of a beating than I already have. Look closely into my eyes. Note my subtle head shake. Just let it end.
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I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals
Same.
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Breonna Taylor was NOT shot while sleeping in her bed, she was awake, in her hallway. She was NOT an EMT at the time of her death; she was forced to quit YEARS ago, because a dead body was found in a car rented under her name; the victim was an "associate" of her drug dealing boyfriend. Even though a "no-knock" warrant WAS issued, the officers DID knock. Her neighbors testified under oath, that the police announced themselves BEFORE trying to enter her apartment. Her boyfriend shot a cop, BEFORE police fired their first round. She was STILL aiding and abetting her previous boyfriend's drug dealing operation; she and her car were surveilled delivering drugs to his "trap house" on numerous occasions. She was STILL stashing his drug money at her house. Her address was on record as being his current address on bank records. Her ex-boyfriend blamed her at-the-time boyfriend for her death, NOT the police.
For the uneducated and willfully ignorant: It was NOT the DA who determined the police officers should not be indicted, it was a GRAND JURY, the most impartial of all arbiters. Her address and vehicle WERE on the warrant. The Left and media HAVE been lying to you! It's unfortunate that she was shot and died, but the police did NOTHING wrong. If people want to BLM(Burn, Loot, Murder) over the grand jury's decision, apply the law to THEM. Breonna was involved with, and profiting from drug trafficking. Blame her, her boyfriend or her ex-boyfriend for her death, NOT the police.
To those offended by the facts and my brutal honesty, F$&@ your feelings. We’ve got a country to save!!
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Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.
Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.
Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.
At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.
https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/
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Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.
Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.
Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.
At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.
https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/
Ha ha.
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Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.
Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.
Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.
At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.
https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/
Because the city settled and paying out with tax-payers money still doesn't say anything about her involvement with drug dealing. Whether she was innocent or guilty she shouldn't have been
shot. But things like this happen in a gun fight. In this current climate, even though nobody argues that shooting her was intentional, the family was going to get something.
Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge. The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment. Shooting indiscriminately in an apartment complex which endangers the neighbors as some bullets did go through the walls and into the next apartment.
So everybody goes home and we have a dead young girl. Things never go well when you resist the police.
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Because the city settled and paying out with tax-payers money still doesn't say anything about her involvement with drug dealing. Whether she was innocent or guilty she shouldn't have been
shot. But things like this happen in a gun fight. In this current climate, even though nobody argues that shooting her was intentional, the family was going to get something.
Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge. The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment. Shooting indiscriminately in an apartment complex which endangers the neighbors as some bullets did go through the walls and into the next apartment.
So everybody goes home and we have a dead young girl. Things never go well when you resist the police.
All of what you posted is correct IMO.
Just so you know, that post was in italics because I lifted it, word-for-word, from the FOX 23 news story I cited.
One could read 10 different news stories which will most likely have a different take on what actually transpired. It pretty clear not all the witnesses agree, which is not at all unusual.
What I left out was the claim that the police shot 30 + rounds into the apartment, 6 of which struck Taylor and at least one of which killed her. This seems like 'overkill' to me. The charge of reckless endangerment seems appropriate. Why only one policeman was charged with this seems odd, unless he did all the shooting, which he didn't as best as I know.
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All of what you posted is correct IMO.
Just so you know, that post was in italics because I lifted it, word-for-word, from the FOX 23 news story I cited.
One could read 10 different news stories which will most likely have a different take on what actually transpired. It pretty clear not all the witnesses agree, which is not at all unusual.
What I left out was the claim that the police shot 30 + rounds into the apartment, 6 of which struck Taylor and at least one of which killed her. This seems like 'overkill' to me. The charge of reckless endangerment seems appropriate. Why only one policeman was charged with this seems odd, unless he did all the shooting, which he didn't as best as I know.
One thing I want to stress to those who have no experience with firearms is that in a high stress situation you are not counting your shots. You keep firing until you believe the threat is over. When I use to compete in hand gun competitions I was always surprise how fast I emptied my 15 round mag. You empty your mag in seconds. There were three cops there all firing. They had no idea how many shooters there were, only that they were fired upon. None them were paying any attention to how many rounds the others were firing let alone with their own. I know you have said before that they should be trained better. Shoot their leg or shoot the gun out their hand. You should go to a range one day and and shoot a handgun. Even pros that make their living shooting firearms can't do that.
My firearms instructor, who also work in LE and on the SWAT team, once related a story where he had to testify in court regarding a shooting. They asked him why he had to fire 15 rounds.
He replied, "Because that's all the bullets I had in my magazine."
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Things never go well when you resist the police.
You've said this in a couple different posts in this thread, but it is not at all clear that's what happened here. Defense provided a witness that claims he did hear the announcement, but there were approx a dozen who say they heard the commotion, but never heard the cops identify themselves. The witness who claims he heard the identification only claimed this after being interviewed 3 times. The stated purpose of a knock and announce is to make parties on the other side of the door aware of their identity to prevent exactly this type of situation. Walker- who reasonably claims to have believed his home was being invaded- fired once, low to the ground as a warning shot. At the very least, this proves he was not preparing for a shoot out with cops. However, in addition to this, it's being reported that internal ballistics reports can't confirm it was Walker's bullet that hit the cop in the thigh, there is a possibility it was "friendly fire."
But even beyond that, there were other plain procedural failures. There's question whether the warrant should have been issued at all- knock, no-knock or whatever. The suspicious packages that were allegedly sent to Taylor's address (that were used to secure the warrant) were never confirmed and the post master denied he ever flagged them. The language used on the warrant for Taylor was identical to the other warrants served that night, even though it clearly didn't apply to her. After she was killed, there was no evidence of money or drug paraphernalia found at her apartment.
It's apparently standard practice to have medical personnel on standby, but they were sent away prior to the raid here. When they were finally brought back to the scene, the shot officer was prioritized and Taylor wasn't looked at for approx an hour (even though, admittedly, Taylor was probably already confirmed dead.)
The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment.
There is no evidence that anyone was exonerated. The grand jury proceedings were confidential and the AG has chosen not to release any information or even a statement on it. Because the jury only returned a report on the one officer who was charged with wreckless endangerment, people have speculated that it's because he was the only one who was presented with charges.
And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why?
They did have bodycams. The attorney of the cop who was shot leaked selective footage and says he plans on filing libel/slander suits. The fact that this selective footage leaks AFTER the grand jury verdict re-enforces what a lot of people think about how shady this AG is being with the details of this case.
One thing I want to stress to those who have no experience with firearms is that in a high stress situation you are not counting your shots. You keep firing until you believe the threat is over.
The funny thing is that Walker- whose home was being invaded- shot once.
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What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!
It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!
Bench
Then there's this case too, one of too many. The cops murdered an innocent couple, Dennis Tuttle -a US Navy veteran- and his wife Rhogena Nicholas inside their own home in Houston during a no knock raid. A cop lied to obtain the warrant, no drugs were found and the cops also tampered with evidence.
But of course there were no riots, no looting, no social media hashtags, no t-shirts or graffiti on walls. Why would that be? Possibly this:
I looked this case up, and as suspected, the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.
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You've said this in a couple different posts in this thread, but it is not at all clear that's what happened here. Defense provided a witness that claims he did hear the announcement, but there were approx a dozen who say they heard the commotion, but never heard the cops identify themselves. The witness who claims he heard the identification only claimed this after being interviewed 3 times. The stated purpose of a knock and announce is to make parties on the other side of the door aware of their identity to prevent exactly this type of situation. Walker- who reasonably claims to have believed his home was being invaded- fired once, low to the ground as a warning shot. At the very least, this proves he was not preparing for a shoot out with cops. However, in addition to this, it's being reported that internal ballistics reports can't confirm it was Walker's bullet that hit the cop in the thigh, there is a possibility it was "friendly fire."
But even beyond that, there were other plain procedural failures. There's question whether the warrant should have been issued at all- knock, no-knock or whatever. The suspicious packages that were allegedly sent to Taylor's address (that were used to secure the warrant) were never confirmed and the post master denied he ever flagged them. The language used on the warrant for Taylor was identical to the other warrants served that night, even though it clearly didn't apply to her. After she was killed, there was no evidence of money or drug paraphernalia found at her apartment.
It's apparently standard practice to have medical personnel on standby, but they were sent away prior to the raid here. When they were finally brought back to the scene, the shot officer was prioritized and Taylor wasn't looked at for approx an hour (even though, admittedly, Taylor was probably already confirmed dead.)
There is no evidence that anyone was exonerated. The grand jury proceedings were confidential and the AG has chosen not to release any information or even a statement on it. Because the jury only returned a report on the one officer who was charged with wreckless endangerment, people have speculated that it's because he was the only one who was presented with charges.
They did have bodycams. The attorney of the cop who was shot leaked selective footage and says he plans on filing libel/slander suits. The fact that this selective footage leaks AFTER the grand jury verdict re-enforces what a lot of people think about how shady this AG is being with the details of this case.
The funny thing is that Walker- whose home was being invaded- shot once.
I believe there was a neighbor that said that they heard them announce themselves. It's possible that the others didn't hear anything because they were asleep. There was an argument and fist fight right in my garage in the middle of the night and I was totally unaware of it because I was asleep. I only found out about when my brother told me how come I never seem to be around when the fists start flying. But we have to honestly asked ourselves what is the probability that the cops issuing a knock-only entry would NOT announce themselves?
As far as whether or not he fired a warning shot we have to go by the word of someone for whom has a vested interest in that detail. Nonetheless, how would the cops know it was a warning shot? The only thing they can be sure of is that they were being shot at. None of this would have happened if Walker didn't shoot at them first.
As to whether or not a raid or investigation was justified, there was a definitely connection between Taylor and the ex-boyfriend drug dealer. I don't think whether or not they should even have been there has ever been an issue so it seems irrelevant at this point or a separate investigation. Resources are precious and I don't think they would just do such a raid just to rack up some over time.
I don't know if you are correct that medical personnel on stand by is standard procedure. There was no medical personnel when I was raided and this included a fully armed SWAT team, six at the front door and others surrounding my house. This was not such a raid as Taylor was consider a soft target and there was only three plain clothes officers armed with their service handguns. They did not expect to get into a gun battle with a young women living alone in an apartment.
Maybe I am not intepretating the news right but it was announced that no cops were charged in the death of Breanna Taylor. One of them was indicted on reckless endangerment but that just means that now it goes to trial. An indictment doesn't determine guilt of innocence.
I didn't know if they had bodycams. That would be great to know because that was one of two of the main reasons that Dave felt it was a horribly executed investigation. To me it wouldn't have changed the outcome but it may shed some light to what really happened. Do you have a link or some tangible evidence that confirms this?
I would hope that if someone was shooting at me that I would be quick enough to smother such an attack with a hail of bullets.
My belief is going by the likelihood of the how such situations play out was that the police announce themselves, Walker panic, and fired a shot. Now it is quite possible that he considered his shot a warning shot. But how would the cops know that, especially since one was hit. It is possible, and maybe even probable, that he felt it was a home invasion led by Taylor's ex who is likely involved with a gang or at least some group of fellow criminals taking revenge on being dumped. But even under the best of circumstances, shedding the best possible light on Walker, what do you expect the cops to do when fired upon?
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I looked this case up, and as suspected, the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.
You're correct here. But "what's funny" is that all the cops involved in the Floyd killing were charged, arrested, and locked up. I'm not sure what will happen to the cops who just stood by, even though they were new and subordinates, but I'm sure they will never work in LE and this will follow them for the rest of their lives. As far as Derek Chavin, he will probably do jail time even though it was determined that Floyd was dying due to a drug overdose but I think that is just speculation, not to say that being pinned to the ground by a knee despite saying he couldn't breath didn't hasten or actually caused his death.
So even though the cops were summarily arrested and are now going through the legal process there still was rioting, looting, and businesses being destroyed.
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I looked this case up, and as suspected, the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.
It took 7 months to "expeditiously" charge the cops in the killing of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas. How long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?
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I believe there was a neighbor that said that they heard them announce themselves. It's possible that the others didn't hear anything because they were asleep. There was an argument and fist fight right in my garage in the middle of the night and I was totally unaware of it because I was asleep. I only found out about when my brother told me how come I never seem to be around when the fists start flying.
Most of the witness interviews that were taken into account heard the commotion but did not hear any identification. There was a NY Times documentary released earlier this summer that talked to some of her neighbors. All were awake and some were even outside at the time.
But we have to honestly asked ourselves what is the probability that the cops issuing a knock-only entry would NOT announce themselves?
Pretty high, imo. This is a link to a report about how the Louisville Police Department conducts raids (from 2015) and officers spoken to say that they specifically wait to announce themselves until the first ram to protect themselves and to prevent suspects from destroying evidence. The criminologist who wrote the report observed approx 100 warrants. It's a largely pro-police report. Based on department members' own descriptions of how raids are conducted, I think it's highly probable that the police knocked as a technicality and waited to identify themselves. The one witness who who claims he heard the police identify themselves said he only heard them identify themselves one time, which would line up.
https://www.valorforblue.org/Documents/Knockingonthedoor-policedecisionpointsinexecutingsearch.pdf
As far as whether or not he fired a warning shot we have to go by the word of someone for whom has a vested interest in that detail. Nonetheless, how would the cops know it was a warning shot? The only thing they can be sure of is that they were being shot at. None of this would have happened if Walker didn't shoot at them first.
Well, the cops have a vested interest in painting a particular picture, as well, but my point wasn't whether or not Walker's version of events should be believed. I was relating the FACTS we have to YOUR statement that this was a case of resisting police that could have easily been avoided if Walker complied. What we do know for a fact is that Walker fired his gun ONCE (the police don't dispute that) and that one of the cops was shot in the leg (with a bullet that may not have been from Walker's gun). All of the FACTS support the idea that he was trying to scare away unidentified intruders with a low shot. It defies logic that if he believed cops were on the other side of the door and wanted to engage in a gunfight, that's how he would have chosen to do it. Based on the facts that even the police admit are true, it defies logic that one low-aimed shot is how he would have chosen to resist arrest.
As to whether or not a raid or investigation was justified, there was a definitely connection between Taylor and the ex-boyfriend drug dealer. I don't think whether or not they should even have been there has ever been an issue so it seems irrelevant at this point or a separate investigation. Resources are precious and I don't think they would just do such a raid just to rack up some over time.
I never said there wasn't a connection, I said the investigation didn't establish Taylor as an accomplice. Glover and Taylor dated and stayed in contact, but that isn't proof that they were criminal co-conspirators. Even if you feel that logically they must have been, law enforcement didn't establish that link. When applying for the warrant, one of the points the cops listed for justification was a suspicious package that was allegedly flagged by the postal inspector to get the warrant, but when that was checked out it turned out to be false. The postal inspector said he never flagged it. The police leaked a memo that implied Taylor was involved in some of Glover's criminal activities , but they later admitted that it was inaccurate and taken out of context. So, yes, they obviously knew each other, but there wasn't an established criminal link between them and it has been debated that the warrant may not have been justified.
I don't know if you are correct that medical personnel on stand by is standard procedure. There was no medical personnel when I was raided and this included a fully armed SWAT team, six at the front door and others surrounding my house. This was not such a raid as Taylor was consider a soft target and there was only three plain clothes officers armed with their service handguns. They did not expect to get into a gun battle with a young women living alone in an apartment.
There were 8-10 officers at involved in Taylor's raid. I'm not claiming to know standard procedure for raids, but multiple outlets reported that there was an ambulance on standby that was dismissed prior to the raid at Taylor's.
Maybe I am not intepretating the news right but it was announced that no cops were charged in the death of Breanna Taylor. One of them was indicted on reckless endangerment but that just means that now it goes to trial. An indictment doesn't determine guilt of innocence.
You are the one that used the word "exonerated". I was quoting you. Just as going to trial does not mean automatic guilt, avoiding it does not mean innocence or exoneration. They were not exonerated. We have no idea if the jury was even allowed to consider charging them. The AG set the parameters and there is speculation (that I consider credible) that he took the possibility of charging any of them with high level charges off the table.
I didn't know if they had bodycams. That would be great to know because that was one of two of the main reasons that Dave felt it was a horribly executed investigation. To me it wouldn't have changed the outcome but it may shed some light to what really happened. Do you have a link or some tangible evidence that confirms this?
It would have taken less time to google than to ask me for a link.
I would hope that if someone was shooting at me that I would be quick enough to smother such an attack with a hail of bullets.
My belief is going by the likelihood of the how such situations play out was that the police announce themselves, Walker panic, and fired a shot. Now it is quite possible that he considered his shot a warning shot. But how would the cops know that, especially since one was hit. It is possible, and maybe even probable, that he felt it was a home invasion led by Taylor's ex who is likely involved with a gang or at least some group of fellow criminals taking revenge on being dumped. But even under the best of circumstances, shedding the best possible light on Walker, what do you expect the cops to do when fired upon?
The question for me isn't what should they do when they're shot at, but what role did they play in creating a situation where they got shot at and whether or not it was reasonably within their power to have prevented it. Neither Taylor or Walker have criminal records and, given the facts of the shootings, it is unrealistic to think he was trigger happy and wanted to engage in a gunfight.
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It took 7 months to "expeditiously" charge the cops in the killing of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas. How long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?
Again, significant differences that you seem to be willfully ignoring. For instance, which family member of the Tuttles was arrested as a result of trying to protect their home?
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Here's a complete breakdown of the case & I have personally been involved in the execution of hundreds of no-knock narcotics search warrants:
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Most of the witness interviews that were taken into account heard the commotion but did not hear any identification. There was a NY Times documentary released earlier this summer that talked to some of her neighbors. All were awake and some were even outside at the time.
Pretty high, imo. This is a link to a report about how the Louisville Police Department conducts raids (from 2015) and officers spoken to say that they specifically wait to announce themselves until the first ram to protect themselves and to prevent suspects from destroying evidence. The criminologist who wrote the report observed approx 100 warrants. It's a largely pro-police report. Based on department members' own descriptions of how raids are conducted, I think it's highly probable that the police knocked as a technicality and waited to identify themselves. The one witness who who claims he heard the police identify themselves said he only heard them identify themselves one time, which would line up.
https://www.valorforblue.org/Documents/Knockingonthedoor-policedecisionpointsinexecutingsearch.pdf
The scenario you are describing in the second paragraph seems to me to be describing a no-knock warrant. If you really believe that the cops knocked but did not identify themselves then it's simply a matter of credibility. You believe Walker and I believe the cops. If it's a knock-only warrant what incentive would they have in not annoucing themselves? If they wanted the element of surprise they could just went with the no-knock entry on the warrant.
Well, the cops have a vested interest in painting a particular picture, as well, but my point wasn't whether or not Walker's version of events should be believed. I was relating the FACTS we have to YOUR statement that this was a case of resisting police that could have easily been avoided if Walker complied. What we do know for a fact is that Walker fired his gun ONCE (the police don't dispute that) and that one of the cops was shot in the leg (with a bullet that may not have been from Walker's gun). All of the FACTS support the idea that he was trying to scare away unidentified intruders with a low shot. It defies logic that if he believed cops were on the other side of the door and wanted to engage in a gunfight, that's how he would have chosen to do it. Based on the facts that even the police admit are true, it defies logic that one low-aimed shot is how he would have chosen to resist arrest.
I strongly disagree with this. When someone shoots at you and hits you in the leg there is no way you can tell if it was just a warning shot. I remember a case where a robber had a gun pointed at a cashier. The cashier's son was in the stock room and witnessed that and because he was armed he shot the robber. Pointing a guy at someone is no guarantee that he will shoot you but when your life or the life of a loved one is at stake why should you take the risk? He got off. So if you can shoot someone for pointing a gun at you I would think it would be even more so if they actually shot you. Seriously and honestly, what would you have done if you were shot at and you or your partner was hit? Even if it was just one shot?
I never said there wasn't a connection, I said the investigation didn't establish Taylor as an accomplice. Glover and Taylor dated and stayed in contact, but that isn't proof that they were criminal co-conspirators. Even if you feel that logically they must have been, law enforcement didn't establish that link. When applying for the warrant, one of the points the cops listed for justification was a suspicious package that was allegedly flagged by the postal inspector to get the warrant, but when that was checked out it turned out to be false. The postal inspector said he never flagged it. The police leaked a memo that implied Taylor was involved in some of Glover's criminal activities , but they later admitted that it was inaccurate and taken out of context. So, yes, they obviously knew each other, but there wasn't an established criminal link between them and it has been debated that the warrant may not have been justified.
There were 8-10 officers at involved in Taylor's raid. I'm not claiming to know standard procedure for raids, but multiple outlets reported that there was an ambulance on standby that was dismissed prior to the raid at Taylor's.
Isn't that why they were there? Three plainclothes officers armed only with their issued sidearms. To establish what kind of connection there was?
You are the one that used the word "exonerated". I was quoting you. Just as going to trial does not mean automatic guilt, avoiding it does not mean innocence or exoneration. They were not exonerated. We have no idea if the jury was even allowed to consider charging them. The AG set the parameters and there is speculation (that I consider credible) that he took the possibility of charging any of them with high level charges off the table.
It would have taken less time to google than to ask me for a link.
I did google it. As I understand it, two of the cops were not charged with anything and the one cop is going to be put on trial on reckless endangerment. If that wasn't the case, what were they rioting for?
The question for me isn't what should they do when they're shot at, but what role did they play in creating a situation where they got shot at and whether or not it was reasonably within their power to have prevented it. Neither Taylor or Walker have criminal records and, given the facts of the shootings, it is unrealistic to think he was trigger happy and wanted to engage in a gunfight.
This is again just a simple disagreement and difference in perspective. Whether or not they should have investigated Taylor and whether the cops issued a knock or no-knock warrant still didn't change the fact that they were shot at. Obviously, if they weren't there in the first place or just never enter they wouldn't have been shot at but that's just saying they shouldn't have been performing the duties the were assigned to. It's like saying in a traffic altercation that none of this would have happened if the cop just didn't pull him over for speeding.
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Here's a complete breakdown of the case & I have personally been involved in the execution of hundreds of no-knock narcotics search warrants:
This was great especially coming from someone who actually had done this many, many times. A couple of things stood out for me. The fact that Glover listed Taylor's address as his own home address and received all his mail there. Also, the when cops enter a residence they are screaming constantly that they are the police so the notion that they did not identify themselves on a knock-only warrant just doesn't comport with common sense. Like I said, when I was raided they were yelling at the top of their lungs that they were LE.
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This was great especially coming from someone who actually had done this many, many times. A couple of things stood out for me. The fact that Glover listed Taylor's address as his own home address and received all his mail there. Also, the when cops enter a residence they are screaming constantly that they are the police so the notion that they did not identify themselves on a knock-only warrant just doesn't comport with common sense. Like I said, when I was raided they were yelling at the top of their lungs that they were LE.
Whenever the left trots out these "unjust shootings of innocent black people" you have to wait a few days for the truth to come out. Michael Brown (hands up don't shoot), Traevon Martin, George Floyd, etc, etc, and on and on it goes.
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The scenario you are describing in the second paragraph seems to me to be describing a no-knock warrant. If you really believe that the cops knocked but did not identify themselves then it's simply a matter of credibility. You believe Walker and I believe the cops. If it's a knock-only warrant what incentive would they have in not annoucing themselves? If they wanted the element of surprise they could just went with the no-knock entry on the warrant.
It very clearly says in the report linked that that's the procedure for knock-and announce warrants and the procedure for no-knock warrants is covered in the following pages. Furthermore, the procedure outlined in my post is LITERALLY knocking and then announcing . In your response to Joe Pietaro, you say it doesn't comport to common sense that the cops weren't screaming at the top of their lungs to identify themselves repeatedly, but even the one witness out of a dozen who claims to have heard an announcement, says he only heard it one time. So if it's truly a matter of credibility, the department members' description of how they've done things in the past and their own witness recollection don't comport to what you say you experienced.
I strongly disagree with this. When someone shoots at you and hits you in the leg there is no way you can tell if it was just a warning shot. I remember a case where a robber had a gun pointed at a cashier. The cashier's son was in the stock room and witnessed that and because he was armed he shot the robber. Pointing a guy at someone is no guarantee that he will shoot you but when your life or the life of a loved one is at stake why should you take the risk? He got off. So if you can shoot someone for pointing a gun at you I would think it would be even more so if they actually shot you. Seriously and honestly, what would you have done if you were shot at and you or your partner was hit? Even if it was just one shot?
And, again, as I very clearly said, I was responding to YOUR post that this whole thing was the result of Walker resisting the police. I never said anything about expecting the police to be psychic. The issue is whether or not their actions contributed to how that night turned out. I'm not sure how I can be clearer on that.
In the post on this page where you say Walker resisted the police, you also say that when he was charged with attempted murder, it was a stupid charge that was rightfully dropped. So, why would it be stupid to charge him with attempted murder for shooting at police if you think he was resisting arrest? Were you saying that you think another charge would have been more appropriate? My takeaway was that you were saying he reacted reasonably, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant. What charges do you think would have been more appropriate?
(And just to be clear, because obviously I need to repeat this point over and over, whether or not the police thought it was a warning shot is beside the point. The shot was NOT inevitable, whether it was a warning shot or meant to kill. The point is that Walker was in a position where shooting was a reasonable response and he didn't create those circumstances. )
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Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge.
Things never go well when you resist the police.
I just don't get how these two things line up. It seems like you're saying that Walker's reaction was justified, but you also say you don't think his description of why he reacted as he did is credible?
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It very clearly says in the report linked that that's the procedure for knock-and announce warrants and the procedure for no-knock warrants is covered in the following pages. Furthermore, the procedure outlined in my post is LITERALLY knocking and then announcing . In your response to Joe Pietaro, you say it doesn't comport to common sense that the cops weren't screaming at the top of their lungs to identify themselves repeatedly, but even the one witness out of a dozen who claims to have heard an announcement, says he only heard it one time. So if it's truly a matter of credibility, the department members' description of how they've done things in the past and their own witness recollection don't comport to what you say you experienced.
Again. It's who you believe and who you give credibility to and your perspective of LE. I tend more toward to giving the benefit of the doubt to the police. You don't.
And, again, as I very clearly said, I was responding to YOUR post that this whole thing was the result of Walker resisting the police. I never said anything about expecting the police to be psychic. The issue is whether or not their actions contributed to how that night turned out. I'm not sure how I can be clearer on that.
To be precise, I didn't say Walker resisted the police. That would be contingent on him knowing for sure it was the police. I leave open the possibility that he did not. I believe the police but it hasn't been prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. I said this whole thing occurred because Walker fired the first shot.
I believed the police knocked, announce themselves, broke in, and were shot at. If you are knowledgeable with police procedure I would very much like to hear how you would have conducted this raid. But given the absolute worse case scenario as to the planning and execution how else were the police to react after being shot at?
Given how it played out. What do you think the police should be charge with, if anything?
In the post on this page where you say Walker resisted the police, you also say that when he was charged with attempted murder, it was a stupid charge that was rightfully dropped. So, why would it be stupid to charge him with attempted murder for shooting at police if you think he was resisting arrest? Were you saying that you think another charge would have been more appropriate? My takeaway was that you were saying he reacted reasonably, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant. What charges do you think would have been more appropriate?
You can resist an arrest without intending to murder the police. And, again, murder has to be premeditated. What I think he should be charge with? Again, that depends if we believe him or the police as to whether or not they announce themselves. I just read, after our previous exchange, that the lone witness who claimed the police announce themselves has not recanted.
I don't know the circumstances as to why he now recants his story or why he lied in the first place but I consider this very, very bad news for the police. That being the case then Walker was justified in defending himself. But even in that scenario, the police were justified as well.
Other than the one police that has been charged with reckless endangerment which is now a separate issue. Everyone goes home and it's just another very tragic incident.
(And just to be clear, because obviously I need to repeat this point over and over, whether or not the police thought it was a warning shot is beside the point. The shot was NOT inevitable, whether it was a warning shot or meant to kill. The point is that Walker was in a position where shooting was a reasonable response and he didn't create those circumstances. )
As I pretty much answered this in my previous post I'll just repeat for the sake of the continuity of the format you prefer that if the police did not announce themselves then Walker acted in self-defense.
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I just don't get how these two things line up. It seems like you're saying that Walker's reaction was justified, but you also say you don't think his description of why he reacted as he did is credible?
When I say "Things never go well when you resist the police" I mean it as a general blanket statement. If the police didn't announce themselves, and I don't know why they wouldn't but I can't deny evidence even if it goes against my inherent bias I have in favor of the police, and the fact that the were in plainclothes; then now, in light of new evidence, it is now more reasonable to assume that Walker acted in self-defense.
You said that they infact wore bodycams. This incident is really not big news in here Hawaii. I haven't done any deep investigation into this case. If they wore bodycams it should be easy to determine whether they announce themselves or not and should be big news. Upon further consideration, meaning as I am writing this, if it can be prove that they did not announce themselves then the officers should be charged. With what specifically I do not know at present.
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To be precise, I didn't say Walker resisted the police. That would be contingent on him knowing for sure it was the police. I leave open the possibility that he did not. I believe the police but it hasn't been prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. I said this whole thing occurred because Walker fired the first shot.
You referred to him (or at least the cause of the events of that night) as resisting arrest in multiple other posts. I guess you can say that you didn't use the exact words "Walker resisted arrest", but why would you say that these things happen because of resisting arrest over the course of several posts when discussing this case?
You earlier in this thread:
Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.
And, no, this isn't me harping on a minor detail. Walker being justified in shooting and the shooting being a sign of resisting arrest are completely contradictory ideas. I don't think they can rationally be squared.
You can resist an arrest without intending to murder the police.
Can you SHOOT someone without intending to murder them or seriously harm them? This is some Olympic-level cognitive dissonance.
What I think he should be charge with? Again, that depends if we believe him or the police as to whether or not they announce themselves.
You plainly said in your last post that you believed the cops and err on giving cops the benefit of the doubt.More than once in the same post.. Okay, so depending on the facts you believed when you made the statement that the charges against Walker were stupid and should have been dropped, what should have happened? Based on what you believed when you made that statement, did it make sense to charge him with something else or not charge him at all?
(As an aside, no, this isn't my preferred format. I don't particularly love it, but it is an effective way of responding to a post when you have several points to address. I'll also point out that in previous exchanges with you, I have attempted to pare down long passages by addressing only the points I considered most relevant, and more than once you responded by focusing on the l or 2 points I didn't address, once even starting a separate thread when you didn't feel my response was adequate.)
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You referred to him (or at least the cause of the events of that night) as resisting arrest in multiple other posts. I guess you can say that you didn't use the exact words "Walker resisted arrest", but why would you say that these things happen because of resisting arrest over the course of several posts when discussing this case?
To avoid any ambiguity, I going to state my position plainly and will not address it anymore. As you said, I never stated specifically if Walker resisted an arrest that's because it isn't clear. As I previously stated, if Walker knew they were the police then, yes, he resisted by shooting at them. If he didn't, then it was self-defense.
You earlier in this thread:
And, no, this isn't me harping on a minor detail. Walker being justified in shooting and the shooting being a sign of resisting arrest are completely contradictory ideas. I don't think they can rationally be squared.
Can you SHOOT someone without intending to murder them or seriously harm them? This is some Olympic-level cognitive dissonance.
I just explained the first part of your statement, and as far as the second, you can absolutely shoot someone and not intend to kill them let alone murder them. In one of the strategies used by the V.C. was to shoot to wound and not kill an American because they knew Americans care for their wounded and it would tie up two or three addition soldeirs to care and carry the wounded or draw them out to try and save them. When I was living in Inglewood one of my neighbors who was involved in a gang was shot in the leg as punishment for whatever offense they felt he committed.
You plainly said in your last post that you believed the cops and err on giving cops the benefit of the doubt.More than once in the same post.. Okay, so depending on the facts you believed when you made the statement that the charges against Walker were stupid and should have been dropped, what should have happened? Based on what you believed when you made that statement, did it make sense to charge him with something else or not charge him at all?
Again I had already address this but I will again to clarify. First degree murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person. In other words, you have to plan ahead to kill that person. Whether Walker knew they were cops or not it still would not have been first degree murder because it was not premeditated. If he knew they were cops then it would be some degree of manslaughter charge. If not, it was in self-defense. And, again, in light of the new evidence where the lone witness has now recanted his claim that he heard the police announce themselves then this reflects very bad on the cops and if it can be proven then the cops should be charged with something. I can't give you specifics at this time. But as of now, given the new evidence, Walker acted in self-defense.
(As an aside, no, this isn't my preferred format. I don't particularly love it, but it is an effective way of responding to a post when you have several points to address. I'll also point out that in previous exchanges with you, I have attempted to pare down long passages by addressing only the points I considered most relevant, and more than once you responded by focusing on the l or 2 points I didn't address, once even starting a separate thread when you didn't feel my response was adequate.)
Fair enough.
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Again, significant differences that you seem to be willfully ignoring. For instance, which family member of the Tuttles was arrested as a result of trying to protect their home?
A forensic investigator did not discover any evidence that Dennis Tuttle, who was killed, fired off a round.
Now, how long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?
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This was great especially coming from someone who actually had done this many, many times. A couple of things stood out for me. The fact that Glover listed Taylor's address as his own home address and received all his mail there. Also, the when cops enter a residence they are screaming constantly that they are the police so the notion that they did not identify themselves on a knock-only warrant just doesn't comport with common sense. Like I said, when I was raided they were yelling at the top of their lungs that they were LE.
Thanks, bro. Even playing devil's advocate - the boyfriend made a mistake & didn't know they were cops when he fired, they are justified in returning fire.
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To avoid any ambiguity, I going to state my position plainly and will not address it anymore. As you said, I never stated specifically if Walker resisted an arrest that's because it isn't clear. As I previously stated, if Walker knew they were the police then, yes, he resisted by shooting at them. If he didn't, then it was self-defense.
No, what I said is that you didn't use the exact words "Walker resisted arrest". What YOU DID say is that it is obvious that when these things occur it's because they resisted police. Since you were talking about the Taylor incident, it seemed pretty obvious that you meant that in reference to this case, but now you seem to be backtracking. There was no caveat about whether or not Walker knew they were the police.
So, here's the flaw with this logic, pellius. We're discussing a civilian shooting at the police. You said "the charges were stupid and should have been dropped". So, if we take your amended caveat at face value, then why would you think it would be stupid to charge someone for shooting at the police if he was aware that they were the police? This whole segment seems like a weak attempt at backtracking. The idea that you think the charges were unwarranted if he knew it was the police makes even less sense than how you originally wrote the statement.
I just explained the first part of your statement, and as far as the second, you can absolutely shoot someone and not intend to kill them let alone murder them.
What I actually wrote is "kill or seriously harm". And this is another example of Olympic-level cognitive dissonance. You just spent several pages saying that you didn't believe Walker's version of events that it was a warning shot, you favored the cops' version, there was no way they could know if it was meant as a warning shot, etc. Yet here, to buoy an amended statement that it seems pretty clear you didn't mean, you compare Walker's situation and intentions to examples of people who administered what were essentially warning shots.
These statements didn't clear up any ambiguity. You changed statements you made into something you didn't actually say and, as a result, they are even more contradictory than the original versions. It's too bad you won't be responding anymore, but I guess it's understandable. Everyone knows how much you hate to argue on the internet and it's not like you've ever bragged about how relentless your debating skills are -- as recently as one page ago in this very thread. ::) ::)
And just to repeat what I said earlier, this is not me harping on a minor inconsistency in your post and trying to grind you down to admit it.
If you're going to have a no-knock warrant, then execute a no-knock warrant. If you're going to have a knock-and-announce, then execute a knock-and-announce. If the cops actually knocked for a minute or more without identifying themselves until the first ram, that is the absolute worst option, by orders of magnitude. To give the people behind the door that amount of time to create fear and suspicion would inevitably lead to something like this at some point.
If the cops lied about the justifications for a search warrant, if they didn't do proper pre-raid surveillance (which we know they didn't do because they weren't aware Taylor's boyfriend was with her), if they conducted the raid improperly, I would consider those all procedural breakdowns that may have resulted in Taylor's death. Not to mention the fact that there's a possibility that the grand jury may not have been allowed to charge the cops with any more serious charges and there may be camera footage that can clarify how the raid was conducted, but we don't know. There are so many parts of this case and pieces of evidence that the ag has been cagey about.
On paper this sounds like exactly the type of case some conservatives would support, or at least be interested in- a legal gun owner protecting his significant other's property from possible government overreach. But at the very least it does show how certain lives matter far less depending on things like race and socio-economic status and it is super easy for people to justify the law applying to different people differently. Even when it creates a notable contradiction in their personal beliefs.
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A forensic investigator did not discover any evidence that Dennis Tuttle, who was killed, fired off a round.
Now, how long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?
The cops in the Breonna Taylor case weren't charged with anything related to her death.
In the midst of national protesting, it took a matter of weeks to charge Chauvin, which might be a testament to the power of protesting.
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No, what I said is that you didn't use the exact words "Walker resisted arrest". What YOU DID say is that it is obvious that when these things occur it's because they resisted police. Since you were talking about the Taylor incident, it seemed pretty obvious that you meant that in reference to this case, but now you seem to be backtracking. There was no caveat about whether or not Walker knew they were the police.
So, here's the flaw with this logic, pellius. We're discussing a civilian shooting at the police. You said "the charges were stupid and should have been dropped". So, if we take your amended caveat at face value, then why would you think it would be stupid to charge someone for shooting at the police if he was aware that they were the police? This whole segment seems like a weak attempt at backtracking. The idea that you think the charges were unwarranted if he knew it was the police makes even less sense than how you originally wrote the statement.
What I actually wrote is "kill or seriously harm". And this is another example of Olympic-level cognitive dissonance. You just spent several pages saying that you didn't believe Walker's version of events that it was a warning shot, you favored the cops' version, there was no way they could know if it was meant as a warning shot, etc. Yet here, to buoy an amended statement that it seems pretty clear you didn't mean, you compare Walker's situation and intentions to examples of people who administered what were essentially warning shots.
These statements didn't clear up any ambiguity. You changed statements you made into something you didn't actually say and, as a result, they are even more contradictory than the original versions. It's too bad you won't be responding anymore, but I guess it's understandable. Everyone knows how much you hate to argue on the internet and it's not like you've ever bragged about how relentless your debating skills are -- as recently as one page ago in this very thread. ::) ::)
And just to repeat what I said earlier, this is not me harping on a minor inconsistency in your post and trying to grind you down to admit it.
If you're going to have a no-knock warrant, then execute a no-knock warrant. If you're going to have a knock-and-announce, then execute a knock-and-announce. If the cops actually knocked for a minute or more without identifying themselves until the first ram, that is the absolute worst option, by orders of magnitude. To give the people behind the door that amount of time to create fear and suspicion would inevitably lead to something like this at some point.
If the cops lied about the justifications for a search warrant, if they didn't do proper pre-raid surveillance (which we know they didn't do because they weren't aware Taylor's boyfriend was with her), if they conducted the raid improperly, I would consider those all procedural breakdowns that may have resulted in Taylor's death. Not to mention the fact that there's a possibility that the grand jury may not have been allowed to charge the cops with any more serious charges and there may be camera footage that can clarify how the raid was conducted, but we don't know. There are so many parts of this case and pieces of evidence that the ag has been cagey about.
On paper this sounds like exactly the type of case some conservatives would support, or at least be interested in- a legal gun owner protecting his significant other's property from possible government overreach. But at the very least it does show how certain lives matter far less depending on things like race and socio-economic status and it is super easy for people to justify the law applying to different people differently. Even when it creates a notable contradiction in their personal beliefs.
Al, I've stated my position clearly and plainly. You keep asking the same questions. Everything that I have to say on this case has already been said. There is nothing more for me to add. There are other topics on this board that I am involved with and I can't keep coming back to this and repeating myself.
Unless new evidence is presented I have nothing more to say about this topic. Draw whatever conclusion that you will.
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Al, I've stated my position clearly and plainly. You keep asking the same questions. Everything that I have to say on this case has already been said. There is nothing more for me to add. There are other topics on this board that I am involved with and I can't keep coming back to this and repeating myself.
Unless new evidence is presented I have nothing more to say about this topic. Draw whatever conclusion that you will.
Well, obviously I don't agree with this assessment, but there you have it.