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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Royalty on October 11, 2022, 10:19:56 AM
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Must’ve spent too much time on the farm that summer 😂
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
J.J. Marsh is vastly underrated imo. He was always in great condition, great proportions and had the frame to hold more size. I don't think he had a long career. He disappeared by the mid 90's.
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
Didnt he place top 3 in 3 different Olympia’s?
He should be proud
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One of Fortress’ favourites.
A disciplined and strong “little” dude. His workouts were oldschool.
There were a few years there in the nineties when he could have taken an O.
Ray wasn’t bloofy and never had an all-drugs look. He appeared strong, dense and diced. Just a wicked physique.
And a big plus, in retirement he hasn’t embarrassed himself or suffered trashed health. At least as far as we know.
I wish him well.
Unquestionably he would have been one of the better representatives of bodybuilding as its biggest champion.
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
You forget one thing: Ray placed TOP 5 in all but one of his Olympia appearances. Back in the day, placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tiered shows.
Plus, the two shows he did win were the Arnold Classic and the IronMan Invitational, considered the next two biggest shows in the IFBB. So, if he won the 3rd and 2nd biggest shows, why would he waste his time with other Grand Prix shows?
To put it in perspective, Darrem Charles has more pro wins than Shawn Ray. But, NOBODY considers Charles to be a better bodybuilder or to have had a better career, especially considering the highest Charles has placed at the Olympia is 7th (2003). He placed 10th (2004) and 9th (2005). Hence, he was backhandedly called "King of the $10,000 shows", as he had a 7-year streak (2002-2008) of winning at least one lower-tier show a year. But, he often placed in the teens at the Olympia, with three times landing in the top 10.
Marsh's two Olympia placings were "16th" (1991) and 12th (1993). Cottrell placed top 5 at the O once (1994).
So, I don't see how Shawn Ray's being top 5 at the Olympia THIRTEEN YEARS in a row makes him "overrated".
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
ND, you usually make the right call regarding bodybuilding, but in this case I disagree with you. Top five in the nineties was worth a win in a lower show. Shawn was second twice and third three times in the nineties. Respect 8)
1988 Mr. Olympia – 13th Place
1990 Mr. Olympia – 3rd Place
1991 Mr. Olympia – 5th Place
1992 Mr. Olympia – 4th Place
1993 Mr. Olympia – 3rd Place
1994 Mr. Olympia – 2nd Place
1995 Mr. Olympia – 4th Place
1996 Mr. Olympia – 2nd Place
1997 Mr. Olympia – 3rd Place
1998 Mr. Olympia – 5th Place
1999 Mr. Olympia – 5th Place
2000 Mr. Olympia – 4th Place
2001 Mr. Olympia – 4th Place
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
He could have easily won many, many more shows. However, once he got in that top 5 he stopped doing all shows save for the Olympia. Not overrated at all in my opinion.
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Shawn ray was a great bber,gave it his all and posed great too boot.polished overall look.
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Shawn Ray as a person is a douchebag but he had a sick physique there's no denying it and I think he smokes any of the current pros these days.
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Brutal if true
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That video with the horse looked like an intro to a Playboy shoot. Wonder what sort of faggotry went on as the original full length video progressed.
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That video with the horse looked like an intro to a Playboy shoot. Wonder what sort of faggotry went on as the original full length video progressed.
😂😂😂
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One of Fortress’ favourites.
A disciplined and strong “little” dude. His workouts were oldschool.
There were a few years there in the nineties when he could have taken an O.
Ray wasn’t bloofy and never had an all-drugs look. He appeared strong, dense and diced. Just a wicked physique.
And a big plus, in retirement he hasn’t embarrassed himself or suffered trashed health. At least as far as we know.
I wish him well.
Unquestionably he would have been one of the better representatives of bodybuilding as its biggest champion.
X 2
I always thought Shawn Ray was one of the best....had a great look to his build.
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He could have easily won many, many more shows. However, once he got in that top 5 he stopped doing all shows save for the Olympia. Not overrated at all in my opinion.
I think he could have one every show early on too especially grand prix,i think for the most part he did not like the drug aspect of competing 'his words'did what he had to do and it obviously it worked for him.i think he was cleanish more than on for most of the year then ramped up for the mro .
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
He looked better than Yates in 96 ...give him that
WoooSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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He looked better than Yates in 96 ...give him that
WoooSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
He looked like a child next to Yates in 96
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One of Fortress’ favourites.
A disciplined and strong “little” dude. His workouts were oldschool.
There were a few years there in the nineties when he could have taken an O.
Ray wasn’t bloofy and never had an all-drugs look. He appeared strong, dense and diced. Just a wicked physique.
And a big plus, in retirement he hasn’t embarrassed himself or suffered trashed health. At least as far as we know.
I wish him well.
Unquestionably he would have been one of the better representatives of bodybuilding as its biggest champion.
Hasn't embarrassed himself in retirement? Everyone thinks he's a total asshole. Remember him letting his own mother take a drug charge for him? Scumbag
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You forget one thing: Ray placed TOP 5 in all but one of his Olympia appearances. Back in the day, placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tiered shows.
Plus, the two shows he did win were the Arnold Classic and the IronMan Invitational, considered the next two biggest shows in the IFBB. So, if he won the 3rd and 2nd biggest shows, why would he waste his time with other Grand Prix shows?
To put it in perspective, Darrem Charles has more pro wins than Shawn Ray. But, NOBODY considers Charles to be a better bodybuilder or to have had a better career, especially considering the highest Charles has placed at the Olympia is 7th (2003). He placed 10th (2004) and 9th (2005). Hence, he was backhandedly called "King of the $10,000 shows", as he had a 7-year streak (2002-2008) of winning at least one lower-tier show a year. But, he often placed in the teens at the Olympia, with three times landing in the top 10.
Marsh's two Olympia placings were "16th" (1991) and 12th (1993). Cottrell placed top 5 at the O once (1994).
So, I don't see how Shawn Ray's being top 5 at the Olympia THIRTEEN YEARS in a row makes him "overrated".
The whole purpose when entering contests is to win , He failed to win for most of his career. Sure he placed high in the Olympia but really only when the top tier guys were off from competing in the spring shows. When he did venture out in the smaller shows like 1996 he was beaten buy the top tier guys. He was never a legitimate threat to Haney , Yates or Coleman and pretends like he was. Great physique no doubts but overrated. Entered 19 shows and only won 2 of them. Lee Labrada never placed below 5th in any contest placed second place in the Olympia twice! won
7 pro shows so much better than Ray , you NEVER hear him cry about politics or placings on contrast to Shawn.
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Shawn Ray standing by himself is great. Shawn Ray next to a Mr. Olympia, not as great. Much like Cormier, he is the complete package but doesn’t have a knockout body part that puts him over the top. Combine that with a height of only 5’6, I’m not surprised that he never won. Still an incredible bodybuilder and one of the best ever though.
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The whole purpose when entering contests is to win , He failed to win for most of his career. Sure he placed high in the Olympia but really only when the top tier guys were off from competing in the spring shows. When he did venture out in the smaller shows like 1996 he was beaten buy the top tier guys. He was never a legitimate threat to Haney , Yates or Coleman and pretends like he was. Great physique no doubts but overrated. Entered 19 shows and only won 2 of them. Lee Labrada never placed below 5th in any contest placed second place in the Olympia twice! won
7 pro shows so much better than Ray , you NEVER hear him cry about politics or placings on contrast to Shawn.
Of course you dont, he consistantly placed higher... ???
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Shawn Ray standing by himself is great. Shawn Ray next to a Mr. Olympia, not as great. Much like Cormier, he is the complete package but doesn’t have a knockout body part that puts him over the top. Combine that with a height of only 5’6, I’m not surprised that he never won. Still an incredible bodybuilder and one of the best ever though.
a knockout bodypart shows a lack of symettry.
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Of course you dont, he consistantly placed higher... ???
1990 was close Labrada beat him in the prejudging. He could make a legit claim he beat Haney because back then you won the prejudging you won the contest the nightshow was for the fans. Lee doesn't bitch 25 years later about how he was screwed over. Shawn still crying and that's kinda the point I'm making , Lee placed higher he didn't complain about any of his placings. Shawn's whole spiel was the same judges judged him all the time. Yeah when he won he was ok with those judges and when he didn't they need to be rotated.
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The whole purpose when entering contests is to win , He failed to win for most of his career. Sure he placed high in the Olympia but really only when the top tier guys were off from competing in the spring shows. When he did venture out in the smaller shows like 1996 he was beaten buy the top tier guys. He was never a legitimate threat to Haney , Yates or Coleman and pretends like he was. Great physique no doubts but overrated. Entered 19 shows and only won 2 of them. Lee Labrada never placed below 5th in any contest placed second place in the Olympia twice! won
7 pro shows so much better than Ray , you NEVER hear him cry about politics or placings on contrast to Shawn.
Per that logic, Darrem Charles would be considered a better bodybuilder than Shawn Ray. Yet, if you proposed that, many would suggest you get drug-tested for narcotics. Ray's lone ASC win is worth 5 times as much as Charles' small show wins (figuratively and perhaps literally). Charles' biggest win was the NY Pro, the year it stopped being the Night of Champions, in 2005.
Ray was one of the TOP TIER guys; The only ones he didn't beat at the Olympia were Yates and Haney. As far as 1996 goes, Ray beat all those guys at the Olympia that beat him earlier that year. So, the competing-in-the-spring thing doesn't quite make sense.
Again, top 5 in the world, thirteen years straight is hardly overrated. Some consider Ray greater than guys who've actually won the Olympia (i.e. Jackson, Bannout).
Shawn Ray standing by himself is great. Shawn Ray next to a Mr. Olympia, not as great. Much like Cormier, he is the complete package but doesn’t have a knockout body part that puts him over the top. Combine that with a height of only 5’6, I’m not surprised that he never won. Still an incredible bodybuilder and one of the best ever though.
Three men have won the O, at 5'6" (or shorter): Dickerson, Columbu, and Jackson.
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1- If Shawn had been 6 inches taller with the same proportions, he would have been nearly unstoppable.
2 - JJ Marsh is VERY underrated as previously stated.
3 - Darrem Charles only won so many pro shows because he competed against nobodies mostly. Not a bad thing really as the man realized that he couldn't hack it at the top so he did what he had to in order to promote himself and establish a legacy (if you want to call it that).
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Per that logic, Darrem Charles would be considered a better bodybuilder than Shawn Ray. Yet, if you proposed that, many would suggest you get drug-tested for narcotics. Ray's lone ASC win is worth 5 times as much as Charles' small show wins (figuratively and perhaps literally). Charles' biggest win was the NY Pro, the year it stopped being the Night of Champions, in 2005.
Ray was one of the TOP TIER guys; The only ones he didn't beat at the Olympia were Yates and Haney. As far as 1996 goes, Ray beat all those guys at the Olympia that beat him earlier that year. So, the competing-in-the-spring thing doesn't quite make sense.
Again, top 5 in the world, thirteen years straight is hardly overrated. Some consider Ray greater than guys who've actually won the Olympia (i.e. Jackson, Bannout).
Three men have won the O, at 5'6" (or shorter): Dickerson, Columbu, and Jackson.
Per that logic, Darrem Charles would be considered a better bodybuilder than Shawn Ray. Yet, if you proposed that, many would suggest you get drug-tested for narcotics. Ray's lone ASC win is worth 5 times as much as Charles' small show wins (figuratively and perhaps literally). Charles' biggest win was the NY Pro, the year it stopped being the Night of Champions, in 2005.
A better competitive bodybuilder? If he won more shows then why not? And when Shawn won the ASC it was only 3 years old so I don't think it was more prestigious than the other contests at that point? The Night of Champions & Ironman were up there.
Ray was one of the TOP TIER guys; The only ones he didn't beat at the Olympia were Yates and Haney. As far as 1996 goes, Ray beat all those guys at the Olympia that beat him earlier that year. So, the competing-in-the-spring thing doesn't quite make sense.
I'll respectfully disagree. Shawn placed 5th at the Arnold Classic in 1996 and 3rd at the Ironman. I think when the real Top Tier guys were off Shawn beat them and when they were on he didn't.
Again, top 5 in the world, thirteen years straight is hardly overrated. Some consider Ray greater than guys who've actually won the Olympia (i.e. Jackson, Bannout).
In 1988 he was 13th so not really top 5 for 13 years straight. 2 pro wins in 13 years , I would disagree. And people consider a lot of things , you can argue Shawn has a better physique than Dex or Samir but both managed to do something he couldn't and that's won the big one and Dexter's career smokes Shawns BY FAR no contest 26 wins and 1 Olympia title
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Don Ross and his comments after the 1991 Olympia
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a knockout bodypart shows a lack of symettry.
It’s a double-edged sword, my friend.
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won the O, at 5'6" (or shorter): Dickerson, Columbu, and Jackson.
Excluding Dex, many consider those the two worst Mr. Olympias of all time
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1- If Shawn had been 6 inches taller with the same proportions, he would have been nearly unstoppable.
2 - JJ Marsh is VERY underrated as previously stated.
3 - Darrem Charles only won so many pro shows because he competed against nobodies mostly. Not a bad thing really as the man realized that he couldn't hack it at the top so he did what he had to in order to promote himself and establish a legacy (if you want to call it that).
Three top-10 Olympia placing ain't exactly chopped liver. To me, Charles' most notable win was the Maximus Pro in Italy, where he upset Markus Ruhl. I actually saw in person the Orlando Xtreme Pro show in 2004 where Charles won. The guy almost literally grows before your eyes.
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Three top-10 Olympia placing ain't exactly chopped liver. To me, Charles' most notable win was the Maximus Pro in Italy, where he upset Markus Ruhl. I actually saw in person the Orlando Xtreme Pro show in 2004 where Charles won. The guy almost literally grows before your eyes.
That Pro Maximus victory was a huge win because Ruhl had convincingly won the 2002 Night of Champions, and placed a very strong 3rd at the 2003 Arnold Classic. At that time, he was a threat at any show.
If Ruhl didn’t tear his tricep leading up to the 2003 Olympia, he probably would have been 3rd or 4th.
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A better competitive bodybuilder? If he won more shows then why not? And when Shawn won the ASC it was only 3 years old so I don't think it was more prestigious than the other contests at that point? The Night of Champions & Ironman were up there.
Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.
I'll respectfully disagree. Shawn placed 5th at the Arnold Classic in 1996 and 3rd at the Ironman. I think when the real Top Tier guys were off Shawn beat them and when they were on he didn't.
Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.
In 1988 he was 13th so not really top 5 for 13 years straight. 2 pro wins in 13 years , I would disagree. And people consider a lot of things , you can argue Shawn has a better physique than Dex or Samir but both managed to do something he couldn't and that's won the big one and Dexter's career smokes Shawns BY FAR no contest 26 wins and 1 Olympia title
Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.
Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.
As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.
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Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.
Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.
Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.
Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.
As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.
Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.
Again it was only 3 years old when Shawn won it. The Night of Champions started in 1978! Was the ASC more prestigious than the San Jose Pro , Canadian pro? Sure , at that point I think the other premier shows were the NOC and Ironman with the ASC coming up
Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.
I agree but in the rare time he ventured out of the Olympia he wasn't winning the lower contests
Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.
Ray competed in 13 Olympias in 1988 he placed 13th after competing at the NOC where he placed 4th. He placed top 5 in 12 consecutive Mr Olympias. Good for him , he still only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of trying
Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.
Well in his defense he got sick. Whenever a rookie turns pro and cleans house everyone has high expectations on them at the Olympia
As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.
Perhaps He turned pro and entered the 88 NOC he placed 4th. He did well in 1990 in 1996 he tried the Ironman and placed 3rd and the Arnold he placed 5th. He wanted the big paydays and those lower shows he stood away from. He didn't compete on the GP tour either
Shawn had an excellent physique was pretty consistent but 2 wins in 13 years is NOT impressive at all.
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a knockout bodypart shows a lack of symettry.
I think that perhaps Cormier’s knockout bodypart was his quads... his specifically quad separation. Cormier could also do an impressive ab vacuum.
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Haidar had abs for days, but look at the quad separation on CC
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Again it was only 3 years old when Shawn won it. The Night of Champions started in 1978! Was the ASC more prestigious than the San Jose Pro , Canadian pro? Sure , at that point I think the other premier shows were the NOC and Ironman with the ASC coming up
I agree but in the rare time he ventured out of the Olympia he wasn't winning the lower contests
The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.
It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.
Ray competed in 13 Olympias in 1988 he placed 13th after competing at the NOC where he placed 4th. He placed top 5 in 12 consecutive Mr Olympias. Good for him , he still only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of trying
That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).
Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.
There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.
Well in his defense he got sick. Whenever a rookie turns pro and cleans house everyone has high expectations on them at the Olympia
If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).
Perhaps He turned pro and entered the 88 NOC he placed 4th. He did well in 1990 in 1996 he tried the Ironman and placed 3rd and the Arnold he placed 5th. He wanted the big paydays and those lower shows he stood away from. He didn't compete on the GP tour either
Indeed. I believe he didn't compete in any other show but the Olympia in 1995 or 1997 after placing 2nd in 1994 and 1996, respectively.
Shawn had an excellent physique was pretty consistent but 2 wins in 13 years is NOT impressive at all.
But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.
Edit - I stand corrected; Ray skipped the O in 1989 (either that or he didn't qualify).
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The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.
It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.
That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).
Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.
There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.
If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).
Indeed. I believe he didn't compete in any other show but the Olympia in 1995 or 1997 after placing 2nd in 1994 and 1996, respectively.
But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.
The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.
The lower contests were the Pittsburg Pro , Canada Pro , Florida Pro , etc... The higher end shows were the Ironman and NOC and the Arnold was getting there. Shawn could've probably done well in those , he choose to put all his eggs in one basket in hoping for the big one. It didn't work for him
It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.
See above , he gambled and it didn't work out for him
That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).
13 Olympias , he didn't compete in 1989 Mr Olympia
Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.
More weight than winning?
There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.
It's pretty impressive to place in the top 10 however who really remembers Mike Quinn? He's not regarded as one of the best ever? Although he was top 6 in 1988 and Platz is legendary for other reasons
If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).
I disagree , I think him winning his first 4 pro shows as a rookie carries more weight than his Olympia especially beating seasoned pros in the process , Same with Flex in 1993
But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.
I agree. 2 pro wins in 13 years of competing is terrible which is why he's overrated. He's good at marketing himself as something more than what he was
overrated
adjective
US /ˌoʊ.vɚˈreɪ.t̬ɪd/ UK /ˌəʊ.vəˈreɪ.tɪd/
If something or someone is overrated, that person or thing is considered to be better or more important than they really are
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Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.
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I always thought Cormier’s Delts could have been rounder more “ capped” (everyone always says no weaknesses)
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Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.
Spot on.
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I always thought Cormier’s Delts could have been rounder more “ capped” (everyone always says no weaknesses)
I hear you 100% there.
But a lot of pro’s we’re putting enhancing agents in their delts, so perhaps that is something CC was not doing?
Extreme example:
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The lower contests were the Pittsburg Pro , Canada Pro , Florida Pro , etc... The higher end shows were the Ironman and NOC and the Arnold was getting there. Shawn could've probably done well in those , he choose to put all his eggs in one basket in hoping for the big one. It didn't work for him
He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.
See above , he gambled and it didn't work out for him
13 Olympias , he didn't compete in 1989 Mr Olympia
As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.
More weight than winning?
It's pretty impressive to place in the top 10 however who really remembers Mike Quinn? He's not regarded as one of the best ever? Although he was top 6 in 1988 and Platz is legendary for other reasons
Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.
Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.
I disagree , I think him winning his first 4 pro shows as a rookie carries more weight than his Olympia especially beating seasoned pros in the process , Same with Flex in 1993
I agree. 2 pro wins in 13 years of competing is terrible which is why he's overrated. He's good at marketing himself as something more than what he was
overrated
adjective
US /ˌoʊ.vɚˈreɪ.t̬ɪd/ UK /ˌəʊ.vəˈreɪ.tɪd/
If something or someone is overrated, that person or thing is considered to be better or more important than they really are
The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.
Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.
I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.
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He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.
As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.
Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.
Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.
The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.
I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.
He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.
Twice in 13 years. Not impressive
As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.
It was never about those titles. For Ray it was always the Olympia it was his destiny
Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.
I'll agree to disagree
Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.
Mike placed better than expected but one of the best pros of the 89s and early 90s? Mike was good one of the best of that era? I'll disagree
The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.
We're back to agree-to-disagree lol All-time greats? Not even close
I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.
Ray was behind Levrone in 1994 after the prejuding and narrowly edged him out at the night show. Shawn was lucky to place second and he knew it. At the time he said he was happy to be back in the runner-up spot where he belonged it wasn't until later he revised his opinion and claimed he should've won.
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Twice in 13 years. Not impressive
It was never about those titles. For Ray it was always the Olympia it was his destiny
You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?
I'll agree to disagree
A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.
Mike placed better than expected but one of the best pros of the 89s and early 90s? Mike was good one of the best of that era? I'll disagree
Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.
That's the prestige which came with being a top-10 Olympia guy. That's why a number of pros who made top 10 didn't bother competing in lower shows the following year (as they were already qualified for the next year's O).
We're back to agree-to-disagree lol All-time greats? Not even close
How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.
The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.
Ray was behind Levrone in 1994 after the prejuding and narrowly edged him out at the night show. Shawn was lucky to place second and he knew it. At the time he said he was happy to be back in the runner-up spot where he belonged it wasn't until later he revised his opinion and claimed he should've won.
I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?
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3 - Darrem Charles only won so many pro shows because he competed against nobodies mostly. Not a bad thing really as the man realized that he couldn't hack it at the top so he did what he had to in order to promote himself and establish a legacy (if you want to call it that).
King of the $10,000 Shows.
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Fantastic physique
But he was delusional thinking he could beat Haney or Yates
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You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?
A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.
Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.
That's the prestige which came with being a top-10 Olympia guy. That's why a number of pros who made top 10 didn't bother competing in lower shows the following year (as they were already qualified for the next year's O).
How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.
The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.
I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?
You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?
Your point is? He's not overrated because he placed well in the Olympia? His entire mission was to win the Olympia , he failed. He placed well for sure , good for him , what makes him overrated to me is he only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition. key word competition. People carry on like he's one of the all-time greatest , he's not even top 20
A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.
I'll disagree
Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.
Again I'll disagree
How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.
The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.
How is he? By virtue of placing second on a couple of occasions? you're gonna need more than that , including pro wins which he has next to none. I wouldn't put Gaspari as an all-time greatest list even though he has 3 runner-ups and 9 pro wins
I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?
Easy to get straight firsts when you consider the high & low scores are tossed out. Dorian was off from 1993 but he wasn't competing against himself. Shawn was happy to be second in 1994 because of the payday he knew he couldn't compete with Dorian and was happy until years later. He promised to beat Haney , he failed. He promised to beat Dorian , he failed. Had the balls to claim Ronnie shouldn't have beaten him or Flex in 1998. ::) He was NEVER going to beat any of them the sport passed him by he was in the wrong era
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One of the things Shawn was often criticized for was he never really changed over his career. When he turned pro he weighed 196lbs and at his best he was only 205lbs. 9 pounds in 13 years? Although he did compete at 215lbs and his trademark sharpness suffered for it
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
Branch Warren won more pro shows, technically, is he better than Shawn Ray?
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Your point is? He's not overrated because he placed well in the Olympia? His entire mission was to win the Olympia , he failed. He placed well for sure , good for him , what makes him overrated to me is he only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition. key word competition. People carry on like he's one of the all-time greatest , he's not even top 20
They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.
He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?
Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).
I'll disagree
So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?
Again I'll disagree
How is he? By virtue of placing second on a couple of occasions? you're gonna need more than that , including pro wins which he has next to none. I wouldn't put Gaspari as an all-time greatest list even though he has 3 runner-ups and 9 pro wins
By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.
Easy to get straight firsts when you consider the high & low scores are tossed out. Dorian was off from 1993 but he wasn't competing against himself. Shawn was happy to be second in 1994 because of the payday he knew he couldn't compete with Dorian and was happy until years later. He promised to beat Haney , he failed. He promised to beat Dorian , he failed. Had the balls to claim Ronnie shouldn't have beaten him or Flex in 1998. ::) He was NEVER going to beat any of them the sport passed him by he was in the wrong era
How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".
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Not only do we share the same name, I get confused for him quite often.
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They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.
He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?
Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).
So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?
By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.
How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".
They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.
He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?
Says you. You think being consistently good means you're one of the all-time greatest? How is he overrated? he won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition that's how. 15.3% win loss ratio that's pathetic but hey he placed top 5 for a while ::) competition the act or process of trying to get or win something
Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).
The all-time greatest automatically is reserved for Sandow winners. It's the pinnacle of the sport and it depends on what you mean by better? Labrada smokes him physique wise and competitive wise.
So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?
Again depends on what you mean by better? Physique wise? competition wise? See above
By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.
Says you. The whole purpose of competition is to win. winning 6 pro shows is better than 2 that's how competition works
How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".
No he thought Ronnie should NOT have won. It speaks to his delusion. " Ronnie was improved and they should have a award for that and it shouldn't be the overall title. he has flaws on my physique that you just can't find on mine of Flex's " ::) and hundreds of bodybuilders weren't proclaiming they would be Mr Olympia or it was their destiny
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Branch Warren won more pro shows, technically, is he better than Shawn Ray?
Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "
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Says you. You think being consistently good means you're one of the all-time greatest? How is he overrated? he won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition that's how. 15.3% win loss ratio that's pathetic but hey he placed top 5 for a while ::) competition the act or process of trying to get or win something
Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?
The all-time greatest automatically is reserved for Sandow winners.
That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.
Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.
It's the pinnacle of the sport and it depends on what you mean by better? Labrada smokes him physique wise and competitive wise.
I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it.
Again depends on what you mean by better? Physique wise? competition wise? See above
Says you. The whole purpose of competition is to win. winning 6 pro shows is better than 2 that's how competition works
All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!
Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.
Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.
No he thought Ronnie should NOT have won. It speaks to his delusion. " Ronnie was improved and they should have a award for that and it shouldn't be the overall title. he has flaws on my physique that you just can't find on mine of Flex's " ::) and hundreds of bodybuilders weren't proclaiming they would be Mr Olympia or it was their destiny
You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.
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Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "
He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.
That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.
Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "
The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.
Add to that:
Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).
Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".
Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.
Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.
Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).
So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.
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He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.
That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.
The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.
Add to that:
Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).
Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".
Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.
Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.
Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).
So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.
Outstanding post. Agree with it all.
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Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?
That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.
Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.
I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it.
All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!
Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.
Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.
You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.
Of course Bannout was better than Ray.
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Of course Bannout was better than Ray.
That’s why it’s a subjective “sport”
If you ask majority I would reckon Shawn Ray > Samir
If that’s the case with being an O winner then Phil is better than Dorian, flex, Kevin, Jay, haney, Arnold
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Of course Bannout was better than Ray.
No, Shawn was better than Bannout.
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Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.
I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.
The only reason he didn't win more shows is that he only competed at the Olympia after a certain point. If he would have competed in smaller shows he would have won a lot of shows. Probably could have set a record for wins.
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Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?
That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.
Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.
I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it.
All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!
Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.
Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.
You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.
Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?
From a financial standpoint that may be true but there isn't just Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. There was still the premier shows as well. And you got to the Olympia by placing high in or winning a pro show ( or special invite ) and once you got there and placed top 10 you were automatically qualified for the next year. You keep insisting placing high in the Olympia is better than winning actual pro shows and not just the low-tier shows. This may be true from a financial standpoint however you're talking about what makes a a bodybuilder one of the all-time greatest 2 pro wins in 13 years of competition is NOT the benchmark. Why do you think Shawn refers to himself as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder? " because he can't defer to his numerous bodybuilding titles because he doesn't have many. The whole point of competition is to win. Shawn won twice in 13 years which is exactly why he's overrated.
That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.
The Olympia title is still the most coveted bodybuilding title. Before the Olympia it was the NABBA Mr Universe. If you won an Olympia title you cemented your legacy, even if only once you've accomplished something rarely done. So by virtue of this alone Shawn wouldn't be in the top 20 of all-time greatest ( 17 Olympia winners ) in polls of the best bodybuilder to never win an Olympia it's usually Flex or Kevin never Shawn.
Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.
You found one. Both are better because the won the Olympia regardless over who. They won Shawn never did. Do either men have a better physique than Shawn? Whole other question. Neither competed against Shawn so irrelevant. The fulfilled their " destiny " Shawn didn't. They are in very rare company but hey Shawn placed second twice ::) Always a bridesmaid and never a bride.
I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it.
Still better than Ray and his 2 wins
All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!
Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.
Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.
I conceded they're not all the same, however the whole point of competition is to win when you only won 2 contests in 13 years of trying you suck at competitive bodybuilding. Shawn put all his eggs in one basket and gambled he would win the big one. He failed. In hindsight he should've stuck to the spring shows perhaps he would've made more money. Samir is better than Charles because he won the Olympia , Samir is better than Shawn by virtue of this simple fact. Once you win the Olympia title you're automatically one of the greatest bodybuilders of all-time. It doesn't matter if you ever win another pro show ( Which Samir did )
You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.
What resume? 2 pro wins in 19 tries? ::) but hey he was consistent ::) he placed second on a couple of occasions ::) Kevin Levrone has a resume , Flex Wheeler has a resume , Chris Cormier has a resume , Vince Taylor has a resume , Lee Labrada has a resume Shawn has no resume which is exactly why he's overrated. All-time great my ass
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He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.
That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.
The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.
Add to that:
Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).
Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".
Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.
Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.
Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).
So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.
He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.
And? he almost never won any contests. You can't escape that
That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.
So you say. When we're talking about the greatest of all time Shawn isn't in the subject because he almost never won anything. And they just didn't have low-tired shows back then that wasn't the only option. Shawn chose his path it didn't work out for him and when you're talking about the great of all time Shawn's resume is lacking severely. 2 pro wins in 19 contests
The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.
True not either mans fault. Statistically Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( something to consider John Grimek never lost a bodybuilding contest ever ) but I would rate Haney as the GOAT simply because he never had bitch tits & a huge gut and Dorian had a higher win/loss ratio than both but statistically Ronnie is the GOAT based on the numbers but Arnold could've won 10 Olympias if he wanted to so there's that to consider. But in the end Shawn isn't near any of them.
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The only reason he didn't win more shows is that he only competed at the Olympia after a certain point. If he would have competed in smaller shows he would have won a lot of shows. Probably could have set a record for wins.
He put all his eggs in one basket it didn't work out for him. He should've entered more shows because he was NEVER going to win the Olympia. We can only comment on what transpired he won twice in 19 contest, not a great record by any means but he was consistent and placed second twice I'm sure that's just as good as winning the Olympia
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Of course Bannout was better than Ray.
By virtue of winning the Olympia Samir is better than Shawn. So is Dickerson and anyone else who managed to win bodybuildings highest title. Shawn couldn't do it but hey he came close lol but not really. let me amend that he placed second on a couple of occasions.
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Aww crap. Somebody got ND going. This could end up rivaling the Ronnie vs. Dorian thread.
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Aww crap. Somebody got ND going. This could end up rivaling the Ronnie vs. Dorian thread.
Not really, his whole argument is "more titles = better than".
true bodybuilding connoisseurs eschew the judges placings in favor of their own critical evaluations.
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Not really, his whole argument is "more titles = better than".
true bodybuilding connoisseurs eschew the judges placings in favor of their own critical evaluations.
Yeah you can tell he's not a fan of Ray. He plays favorites, and let's it cloud his judgement.
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:'(Titles certainly contribute to the arguement but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs more and with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it again. Shawn was consistently great.
Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won an Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.
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Titles certainly contribute to the argue but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs bigger amd with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it against. Shawn was consistently great.
Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won An Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.
For what it’s worth...
Samir had noticeably weak hamstrings, and that is not a good look
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For what it’s worth...
Samir had noticeably weak hamstrings, and that is not a good look
Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
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Samir obviously did not train his hamstrings with the same intensity as he did his other body parts.
Damn.
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Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
Shawn ran into 2 buzzsaws. He probably gets one in like Dex if he had gone up against Jay.
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Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.
First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition. Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L ???
Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.
Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.
Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a Mr. O.
IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.
Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...
Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.
Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.
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That’s why it’s a subjective “sport”
If you ask majority I would reckon Shawn Ray > Samir
If that’s the case with being an O winner then Phil is better than Dorian, flex, Kevin, Jay, haney, Arnold
Prime Phil IS better than everyone you listed. Of course, in my opinion. When I'm comparing these guys I'm using the best version of each guy. Phil went downhill quickly after winning the O but the 2011 version was amazing. Better than all the guys you listed.
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Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.
First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition. Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L ???
Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.
Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.
Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a Mr. O.
IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.
Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...
Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.
Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.
Good Post. Where do you put Phil Heath?
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Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen. I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists. There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers
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(https://i.postimg.cc/J019cMTh/CDC428-F8-022-E-4-F36-A7-A5-61600-A22-E4-D4.jpg)
this was from a friend, seen in Mexico. If you didnt know that was a multiple Mr O you'd think he was just a random bodybuilder.
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Excuse the triple post but last thought: Phil does have one of the best BDB of all time. But that pose doesnt show his face so it doesnt get associated with him. Even in that poster they opt for his FDB and unimpressive most-muscular instead, because it shows his face off
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I'll say this, like most multi-O winners, Phil didn't deserve all his wins. His physique brought in an era of being full because of his 3d effect. I'd put him right below Arnold, Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.
I still have the best of some 90s guys better than him even though he'd dust them onstage.
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Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen. I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists. There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers
You don't think Phil Heath will make many all time great lists? Cmon
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:'(Titles certainly contribute to the arguement but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs more and with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it again. Shawn was consistently great.
Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won an Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.
You can argue who has the better physique between Shawn and Samir however when it comes to who should be in the greatest of all time Samir by virtue of winning an Olympia title automatically puts him in that category. Shawn NO.
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Good Post. Where do you put Phil Heath?
Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.
But the biggest thing that puts him in the 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.
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Samir obviously did not train his hamstrings with the same intensity as he did his other body parts.
Damn.
Woof! Hamstrings are non existent. Not a good look
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Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.
But the biggest thing that puts him in tge 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.
Great legs too
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Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
Again I'm talking about Samir being better because he's an Olympia winner , you can argue physiques all you want that's another subject and that is a lot closer than you think
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Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.
But the biggest thing that puts him in the 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.
I hear you but think about this, has anyone elevated the sport since Ronnie? That's a tall order considering Ronnie is viewed as the best ever among most.
For me, if he had wider shoulders and smaller obliques, I'd have him in the first group.
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Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen. I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists. There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers
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Again I'm talking about Samir being better because he's an Olympia winner , you can argue physiques all you want that's another subject and that is a lot closer than you think
So statistically speaking he's better but not visually speaking, got it. Lol
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So statistically speaking he's better but not visually speaking, got it. Lol
;D
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Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.
We can't compare titles won because Shawn only has 2
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From a financial standpoint that may be true but there isn't just Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. There was still the premier shows as well. And you got to the Olympia by placing high in or winning a pro show ( or special invite ) and once you got there and placed top 10 you were automatically qualified for the next year. You keep insisting placing high in the Olympia is better than winning actual pro shows and not just the low-tier shows. This may be true from a financial standpoint however you're talking about what makes a a bodybuilder one of the all-time greatest 2 pro wins in 13 years of competition is NOT the benchmark. Why do you think Shawn refers to himself as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder? " because he can't defer to his numerous bodybuilding titles because he doesn't have many. The whole point of competition is to win. Shawn won twice in 13 years which is exactly why he's overrated.
Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.
It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.
The Olympia title is still the most coveted bodybuilding title. Before the Olympia it was the NABBA Mr Universe. If you won an Olympia title you cemented your legacy, even if only once you've accomplished something rarely done. So by virtue of this alone Shawn wouldn't be in the top 20 of all-time greatest ( 17 Olympia winners ) in polls of the best bodybuilder to never win an Olympia it's usually Flex or Kevin never Shawn.
It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.
You found one. Both are better because the won the Olympia regardless over who. They won Shawn never did. Do either men have a better physique than Shawn? Whole other question. Neither competed against Shawn so irrelevant. The fulfilled their " destiny " Shawn didn't. They are in very rare company but hey Shawn placed second twice ::) Always a bridesmaid and never a bride.
They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!
Still better than Ray and his 2 wins
I conceded they're not all the same, however the whole point of competition is to win when you only won 2 contests in 13 years of trying you suck at competitive bodybuilding. Shawn put all his eggs in one basket and gambled he would win the big one. He failed. In hindsight he should've stuck to the spring shows perhaps he would've made more money. Samir is better than Charles because he won the Olympia , Samir is better than Shawn by virtue of this simple fact. Once you win the Olympia title you're automatically one of the greatest bodybuilders of all-time. It doesn't matter if you ever win another pro show ( Which Samir did )
No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins).
What resume? 2 pro wins in 19 tries? ::) but hey he was consistent ::) he placed second on a couple of occasions ::) Kevin Levrone has a resume , Flex Wheeler has a resume , Chris Cormier has a resume , Vince Taylor has a resume , Lee Labrada has a resume Shawn has no resume which is exactly why he's overrated. All-time great my ass
Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.
Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.
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He put all his eggs in one basket it didn't work out for him. He should've entered more shows because he was NEVER going to win the Olympia. We can only comment on what transpired he won twice in 19 contest, not a great record by any means but he was consistent and placed second twice I'm sure that's just as good as winning the Olympia
Strawman argument. Nobody claimed placing second twice is as good as winning. But, your claim that because Ray only won two shows (albeit, the IronMan and ASC), his 12-straight top 5 placing at the Olympia shouldn't count as his being among the all-time greats.
And you repeatedly dismiss the fact that for the bulk of his career, placing top-10 at the Olympia carried more prestige than winning lower shows. A number of guys have won lower shows but got clobbered at the O.
JJ Marsh won the IronMan in 1991; He placed "16th" at the Olympia that same year.
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Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.
First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition. Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L ???
Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.
Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.
Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a Mr. O.
IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.
Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...
Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.
Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.
Where do Heath and Cutler fit on your tiers?
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Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.
It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.
It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.
They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!
No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins).
Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.
Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.
Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.
I know he is and that's what I was referring to and it doesn't take much to get in it either lol he can't defer to his numerous word titles because he has none
It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.
That carries no weight in the scheme of things and I have mentioned that as already.
It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.
The whole contest was to settle who was the best of the best from the inception it was designed to have people who were all champions to see who was the best of all the champions. regardless anyone who won the Olympia automatically qualifies for the greatest of all time and Sergio ran unopposed once and that was 1968
They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!
Ok?
No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins
They all won more titles before the Olympia so entertaining that were true it doesn't matter. The whole point is they won regardless of the title , Shawn twice. And I'm not sure where you're getting the Olympia wasn't the top title at that point?
Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.
I've said as much and that means he's the greatest of all time? He was a consistent loser for 12 years congrats , pretty sure he was trying to win but never could
Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.
No comparison between Shawn and Chris 11 pro wins vs 2 Shawn cased closed
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Strawman argument. Nobody claimed placing second twice is as good as winning. But, your claim that because Ray only won two shows (albeit, the IronMan and ASC), his 12-straight top 5 placing at the Olympia shouldn't count as his being among the all-time greats.
And you repeatedly dismiss the fact that for the bulk of his career, placing top-10 at the Olympia carried more prestige than winning lower shows. A number of guys have won lower shows but got clobbered at the O.
JJ Marsh won the IronMan in 1991; He placed "16th" at the Olympia that same year.
You keep glossing over the fact that he won 2 freaking contests lol in 13 years and you think he's one of the all time greatest ? No way I don't care how consistent he was , he consistently lost that's no prize. Shawn is the textbook definition of the word overrated. Nothing about his career is exceptional or extraordinary
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You keep glossing over the fact that he won 2 freaking contests lol in 13 years and you think he's one of the all time greatest ? No way I don't care how consistent he was , he consistently lost that's no prize. Shawn is the textbook definition of the word overrated. Nothing about his career is exceptional or extraordinary
So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.
Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.
And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.
Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?
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So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.
Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.
And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.
Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?
So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.
Says you. You can't be considered among the best in the business until you win more than 2 professional contests no matter how many times you came in top 5 in the Olympia. See how that works?
Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.
Mike Francois is a better competitive bodybuilder than Shawn Ray because he won more contests. The whole concept of entering bodybuilding shows is to win them , you don't get credit for consistently losing no matter how close you may have come
And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.
Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?
According to who? The whole point of this is Shawn is overrated because he rarely won anything and people are including him the greatest of all-time which is silly you DO NOT get included in this list by winning next to nothing and especially not the Mr Olympia
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Shawn Ray competed in the eras of Haney Yates and Ronnie
They were unbeatable champions to place second when these guys were around was a win.
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Says you.
Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.
You can't be considered among the best in the business until you win more than 2 professional contests no matter how many times you came in top 5 in the Olympia. See how that works?
The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.
Mike Francois is a better competitive bodybuilder than Shawn Ray because he won more contests. The whole concept of entering bodybuilding shows is to win them , you don't get credit for consistently losing no matter how close you may have come
Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).
Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.
According to who? The whole point of this is Shawn is overrated because he rarely won anything and people are including him the greatest of all-time which is silly you DO NOT get included in this list by winning next to nothing and especially not the Mr Olympia
He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.
The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.
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Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.
The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.
Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).
Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.
He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.
The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.
Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.
So you say. again.
The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.
The other shows were a means to qualify for the Olympia as well as making living for people who wasn't really going to win the Olympia. Why do think think Flex always competed in the spring shows? Easy pay day and he had a legitimate chance of winning the Olympia where Shawn never did
Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).
Flex? Labrada? Clairmonte? Nasser? lower-level? Francois won his first 4 pro shows something Shawn never did , in fact he won more pro shows in 2 years than Shawn did in 13
Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.
There are other shows than lower-level that's your strawman. placing top 5 at the Olympia does not hold anymore weight then you know actually winning a professional contest. Francois winning the first 4 pro shows as a rookie and beating seasoned pro in the process with infinitely more impressive than Shawn top 5 at the Olympia. The ultimate goal of entering any pro contest is to win it. Shawn almost never won. You can't escape that
He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.
And that's all he won ever in 19 competitions. Again that's no consolation Shawn bitched & moaned about it the entire time you think he was content with top 5? absolutely not.
The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.
Where do you come up with this nonsense? If you consistently lose , it determine how great you are? What the heck? ??? Wrong , what determined greatness if what you won and how many times. The whole point is to WIN the Olympia and not merely do well. Shawn was NEVER the best bodybuilder , he one one of the best at certain years but NEVER the best. he promised to beat the best he failed. You see it in the video he's not claiming he's there to do well or consistent. He said he was going to beat Haney. Haney is arguably the GOAT Shawn isn't , he's not in the same league , he was never a threat , he's not great in any context of the word. That's why I say he's vastly overrated he's convinced people like you he's in their league and he's NOT , NEVER was NEVER will be. He had an excellent physique did well for himself all things considered was a mediocre competitive bodybuilder with just 2 wins to his credit and that's it.
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Where do Heath and Cutler fit on your tiers?
2nd group. Good arguments can be made for either one. I personally don't care for Heath but his achievements are undeniable. Jay looked incredible in 01 and 09. In fsct 01/09 Cutler looks better than any version of Heath imo but every other year Jay just looked like a fat guy with muscles spray painted on.
Like Wiggs said: no one has elevated the sport since Ronnie.
The Sport was in Arnolds shadow until Lee came along. And everyone was in Lee's shadow until Dorian came along. Everyone has been in 2003 Ronnies shadow for the past 19 years.
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He looked like a child next to Yates in 96
Shopped
Here's the legit pic
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Shawn Ray standing by himself is great. Shawn Ray next to a Mr. Olympia, not as great. Much like Cormier, he is the complete package but doesn’t have a knockout body part that puts him over the top. Combine that with a height of only 5’6, I’m not surprised that he never won. Still an incredible bodybuilder and one of the best ever though.
5'2" tops - see above ;D
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5'2" tops - see above ;D
;D
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2nd group. Good arguments can be made for either one. I personally don't care for Heath but his achievements are undeniable. Jay looked incredible in 01 and 09. In fsct 01/09 Cutler looks better than any version of Heath imo but every other year Jay just looked like a fat guy with muscles spray painted on.
Like Wiggs said: no one has elevated the sport since Ronnie.
The Sport was in Arnolds shadow until Lee came along. And everyone was in Lee's shadow until Dorian came along. Everyone has been in 2003 Ronnies shadow for the past 19 years.
In my opinion Jay looked really good at the 2003 Ironman Invitational
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My Olympia 1st team:
Arnold
Haney
Yates
Ronnie
Phil
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Shopped
Here's the legit pic
Legit lol
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So you say. again.
The other shows were a means to qualify for the Olympia as well as making living for people who wasn't really going to win the Olympia. Why do think think Flex always competed in the spring shows? Easy pay day and he had a legitimate chance of winning the Olympia where Shawn never did
Flex? Labrada? Clairmonte? Nasser? lower-level? Francois won his first 4 pro shows something Shawn never did , in fact he won more pro shows in 2 years than Shawn did in 13
And yet, when he got to the Olympia, Ray placed higher. And while Ray would remain among the top 5 at the O, Francois unfortunately would never improve on his 7th-place finish.
There are other shows than lower-level that's your strawman. placing top 5 at the Olympia does not hold anymore weight then you know actually winning a professional contest. Francois winning the first 4 pro shows as a rookie and beating seasoned pro in the process with infinitely more impressive than Shawn top 5 at the Olympia. The ultimate goal of entering any pro contest is to win it. Shawn almost never won. You can't escape that.
Yes it does. Why do you think Shawn Ray is in the iFBB Hall of Fame, whereas Francois, Charles, and other IFBB pros who have won more shows ARE NOT?
Answer: Top 5 at the Olympia, 12 years straight for Shawn Ray.
And that's all he won ever in 19 competitions. Again that's no consolation Shawn bitched & moaned about it the entire time you think he was content with top 5? absolutely not.
Nobody claimed he was. Again, for most of his career, he competed only in the Olympia.
Where do you come up with this nonsense? If you consistently lose , it determine how great you are? What the heck? ??? Wrong , what determined greatness if what you won and how many times. The whole point is to WIN the Olympia and not merely do well. Shawn was NEVER the best bodybuilder , he one one of the best at certain years but NEVER the best. he promised to beat the best he failed. You see it in the video he's not claiming he's there to do well or consistent. He said he was going to beat Haney. Haney is arguably the GOAT Shawn isn't , he's not in the same league , he was never a threat , he's not great in any context of the word. That's why I say he's vastly overrated he's convinced people like you he's in their league and he's NOT , NEVER was NEVER will be. He had an excellent physique did well for himself all things considered was a mediocre competitive bodybuilder with just 2 wins to his credit and that's it.
A number of guys said they were going to beat Haney but didn't. But, Ray never being a threat? PLEASE!! He was always a threat to win. Unfortunately for him (especially in 1994), it didn't happen.
Mediocre doesn't get you in the top 5 at the Olympia, especially for a decade plus. There was a reason why placing top 10 at the Olympia automatically qualified you for the next Olympia: How you placed there determined how good you really were and that trumped even winning lower shows.
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And yet, when he got to the Olympia, Ray placed higher. And while Ray would remain among the top 5 at the O, Francois unfortunately would never improve on his 7th-place finish.
Yes it does. Why do you think Shawn Ray is in the iFBB Hall of Fame, whereas Francois, Charles, and other IFBB pros who have won more shows ARE NOT?
Answer: Top 5 at the Olympia, 12 years straight for Shawn Ray.
Nobody claimed he was. Again, for most of his career, he competed only in the Olympia.
A number of guys said they were going to beat Haney but didn't. But, Ray never being a threat? PLEASE!! He was always a threat to win. Unfortunately for him (especially in 1994), it didn't happen.
Mediocre doesn't get you in the top 5 at the Olympia, especially for a decade plus. There was a reason why placing top 10 at the Olympia automatically qualified you for the next Olympia: How you placed there determined how good you really were and that trumped even winning lower shows.
And yet, when he got to the Olympia, Ray placed higher. And while Ray would remain among the top 5 at the O, Francois unfortunately would never improve on his 7th-place finish.
And? doesn't change the fact he won more pro shows in 2 years than Shawn did in his entire career. If Mike didn't get sick I'm sure he would've improved his placing at the Olympia
Yes it does. Why do you think Shawn Ray is in the iFBB Hall of Fame, whereas Francois, Charles, and other IFBB pros who have won more shows ARE NOT? Answer: Top 5 at the Olympia, 12 years straight for Shawn Ray.
Mike Francois is in the IFBB Hall of Fame inducted in 2011 guess who else is in it? Porter Cottrell . Al Beckles is in it too , So is Tom Platz and he never won a IFBB pro show must be the 1 time he placed 3rd at the Olympia , So much for that theory. And Shawn refers to himself as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder " because he can't defer to his numerous titles won because he has next to none. And who else refers to themselves as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder "? No one. They haven't inducted anyone since 2011 it's defunct
Nobody claimed he was. Again, for most of his career, he competed only in the Olympia.
Most , not all he tried to win 4 other pro shows and lost. He entered 19 shows and won just 2 of them. Not impressive at all.
A number of guys said they were going to beat Haney but didn't. But, Ray never being a threat? PLEASE!! He was always a threat to win. Unfortunately for him (especially in 1994), it didn't happen.
He was NEVER a threat to Haney , Yates or Coleman. History has proven this correct. 1994? He was behind Levrone after the prejudging he wasn't anywhere near Yates al all. You're out of touch with reality.
Mediocre doesn't get you in the top 5 at the Olympia, especially for a decade plus. There was a reason why placing top 10 at the Olympia automatically qualified you for the next Olympia: How you placed there determined how good you really were and that trumped even winning lower shows.
Mediocre gets you 2 professional wins in 13 years of trying. congrats Shawn was consistently the best loser but hey he's in the " Bodybuilding hall of fame " Shawn couldn't beat Haney , couldn't beat Yates and with Yates out of the picture and no excuses left couldn't beat Coleman. He was NEVER a threat to win the Olympia. Yates in his first Olympia pushed Haney who was at a career best like no one ever has and beat him in the muscularity round. The best Shawn could do is a distant second by edging out Levrone in 94 ::) in all the polls of the best bodybuilder to never win the Olympia Shawn's not at the top of the list. 5'6" 205lbs maybe in 1983 but in reality he never stood a chance.
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I specifically remember a Lee Haney interview from 1991 where he said that Shawn Ray had the potential to be an Olympia winner.
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I specifically remember a Lee Haney interview from 1991 where he said that Shawn Ray had the potential to be an Olympia winner.
History has proven otherwise. 5'6" 205lbs He never stood a chance.
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History has proven otherwise. 5'6" 205lbs He never stood a chance.
I think that Lee Haney may have actually been taking a shot at Lee Labrada when he gave that compliment to Shawn. Haney was basically saying that Labrada had no chance, and if anyone had a chance, it was Shawn.
I remember Haney called Labrada: “Flea Labrada”
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I think that Lee Haney may have actually been taking a shot at Lee Labrada when he gave that compliment to Shawn. Haney was basically saying that Labrada had no chance, and if anyone had a chance, it was Shawn.
I remember Haney called Labrada: “Flea Labrada”
Neither honestly stood a chance. If the 212 was around back then Shawn would've been king or Labrada but open was next level
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;D ;D
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Neither honestly stood a chance. If the 212 was around back then Shawn would've been king or Labrada but open was next level
Yeah, so next level they beat everyone but one guy. 🤨
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Yeah, so next level they beat everyone but one guy. 🤨
Shawn was a good fill in when the top tier guys were off. If Kevin , Flex etc where on Shawn was NOT beating them
quote Ironman Jan 1995 " The battle was between Shawn and Kevin for second "
Kevin has it all but was a little soft in prejudging , which hurt him. He wasn't quite as sharp as Shawn , but it was very close between second and third. It came down to the posedown ( Which Shawn won by a single point ).
1994 a contest people claim Shawn won ::) He barely beat an off Kevin by a single point. Same with Flex in 1993 who was slightly off and still beat a 100% Shawn
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My Olympia 1st team:
Arnold
Haney
Yates
Ronnie
Phil
gayer than having a personal mr olympia "team".
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Very good for 5’6 210LB
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Very good for 5’6 210LB
205lbs and the 1988 Mr Olympia he was 201 1/2lbs He had a phenomenal physique , however he's overrated
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205lbs and the 1988 Mr Olympia he was 201 1/2lbs He had a phenomenal physique , however he's overrated
Overrated would be flex wheeler, started out great at lighter body weight, then funky calves, odd shoulders, arms, failing kidneys, inferior genetics for longevity
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History has proven otherwise. 5'6" 205lbs He never stood a chance.
And people made fun of Phil Heath for being narrow.