Back in 1991 when Shawn Ray thought that he was going to defeat Lee Haney

[King Shizzo]

Not only do we share the same name, I get confused for him quite often.

[NarcissisticDeity]

They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.

He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?


Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).

So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?

By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.

How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".

They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.

He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?

Says you. You think being consistently good means you're one of the all-time greatest? How is he overrated? he won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition that's how. 15.3% win loss ratio that's pathetic but hey he placed top 5 for a while    competition  the act or process of trying to get or win something

Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).

The all-time greatest automatically is reserved for Sandow winners. It's the pinnacle of the sport and it depends on what you mean by better? Labrada smokes him physique wise and competitive wise.

So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?

Again depends on what you mean by better? Physique wise? competition wise? See above

By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.

Says you. The whole purpose of competition is to win. winning 6 pro shows is better than 2 that's how competition works

How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".

No he thought Ronnie should NOT have won. It speaks to his delusion. " Ronnie was improved and they should have a award for that and it shouldn't be the overall title. he has flaws on my physique that you just can't find on mine of Flex's "    and hundreds of bodybuilders weren't proclaiming they would be Mr Olympia or it was their destiny

[NarcissisticDeity]

Branch Warren won more pro shows, technically, is he better than Shawn Ray?

Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "

[MCWAY]

Says you. You think being consistently good means you're one of the all-time greatest? How is he overrated? he won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition that's how. 15.3% win loss ratio that's pathetic but hey he placed top 5 for a while    competition  the act or process of trying to get or win something

Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?

The all-time greatest automatically is reserved for Sandow winners.

That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.

Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.

 It's the pinnacle of the sport and it depends on what you mean by better? Labrada smokes him physique wise and competitive wise.

I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it. 

Again depends on what you mean by better? Physique wise? competition wise? See above


Says you. The whole purpose of competition is to win. winning 6 pro shows is better than 2 that's how competition works

All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!

Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.

Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.

No he thought Ronnie should NOT have won. It speaks to his delusion. " Ronnie was improved and they should have a award for that and it shouldn't be the overall title. he has flaws on my physique that you just can't find on mine of Flex's "    and hundreds of bodybuilders weren't proclaiming they would be Mr Olympia or it was their destiny

You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.

[MCWAY]

Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "

He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.

That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.

Absolutely. Just like Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( technically ) because he has the most pro wins and tied Haney for most Sandows. The entire purpose of competition is to determine a winner , Shawn won rarely. But hey consolation prize he placed high regularly I'm sure that's just as good as fulfilling his " destiny "

The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.

Add to that:

Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).

Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".

Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.

Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.

Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).

So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.

[AbrahamG]

He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.

That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.

The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.

Add to that:

Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).

Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".

Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.

Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.

Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).

So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.

Outstanding post.  Agree with it all.

[ChristopherA]

Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?

That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.

Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.



I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it. 

All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!

Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.

Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.

You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.

Of course Bannout was better than Ray.

[Bevo]

Of course Bannout was better than Ray.

That’s why it’s a subjective “sport”

If you ask majority I would reckon Shawn Ray > Samir

If that’s the case with being an O winner then Phil is better than Dorian, flex, Kevin, Jay, haney, Arnold

[Wiggs]

Of course Bannout was better than Ray.

No, Shawn was better than Bannout.

[Humble Narcissist]

Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.



I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.

The only reason he didn't win more shows is that he only competed at the Olympia after a certain point. If he would have competed in smaller shows he would have won a lot of shows. Probably could have set a record for wins.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?

That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.

Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.



I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it. 

All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!

Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.

Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.

You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.

Again, TOP 10 at the Olympia >> winning Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. How do you think guys like Mike Quinn and Tom Platz ended up competing at multiple Olympias, despite not winning a single pro show?

From a financial standpoint that may be true but there isn't just Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. There was still the premier shows as well. And you got to the Olympia by placing high in or winning a pro show ( or special invite ) and once you got there and placed top 10 you were automatically qualified for the next year. You keep insisting placing high in the Olympia is better than winning actual pro shows and not just the low-tier shows. This may be true from a financial standpoint however you're talking about what makes a a bodybuilder one of the all-time greatest 2 pro wins in 13 years of competition is NOT the benchmark. Why do you think Shawn refers to himself as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder? " because he can't defer to his numerous bodybuilding titles because he doesn't have many. The whole point of competition is to win. Shawn won twice in 13 years which is exactly why he's overrated.

That's only the case when the Olympia was the top title in all of bodybuilding. So, that rules out Scott and Oliva, unless you factor other titles they won. Schwarzenegger won the O when it wasn't the top title; but he also won the NABBA Universe multiple times, when it was the top show. So, he's indeed an all-time great.

The Olympia title is still the most coveted bodybuilding title. Before the Olympia it was the NABBA Mr Universe. If you won an Olympia title you cemented  your legacy, even if only once you've accomplished something rarely done. So by virtue of this alone Shawn wouldn't be in the top 20 of all-time greatest ( 17 Olympia winners ) in polls of the best bodybuilder to never win an Olympia it's usually Flex or Kevin never Shawn.

Good luck finding anyone who thinks Samir Bannout or Chris Dickerson is better than Shawn Ray.

You found one. Both are better because the won the Olympia regardless over who. They won Shawn never did. Do either men have a better physique than Shawn? Whole other question. Neither competed against Shawn so irrelevant. The fulfilled their " destiny " Shawn didn't. They are in very rare company but hey Shawn placed second twice  Always a bridesmaid and never a bride.

I already mentioned Labrada as one of the few guys who won multiple pro shows and placed top 5 at the O multiple times, without winning it. 

Still better than Ray and his 2 wins

All pro shows are NOT created equal. You really think the Orlando Pro Invitational is equal to the Arnold Classic? Nope!

Even by your own logic, why is Samir Bannout better than Darrem Charles, despite Charles having won 7 shows to Bannout's two? Bannout won the Olympia; Charles did not.

Bannout's win ratio is even WORSE than that of Shawn Ray. Yet, you declared Bannout an all-time great! Why? Bannout won the Olympia.

I conceded they're not all the same, however the whole point of competition is to win when you only won 2 contests in 13 years of trying you suck at competitive bodybuilding. Shawn put all his eggs in one basket and gambled he would win the big one. He failed. In hindsight he should've stuck to the  spring shows perhaps he would've made more money. Samir is better than Charles because he won the Olympia , Samir is better than Shawn by virtue of this simple fact. Once you win the Olympia title you're automatically one of the greatest bodybuilders of all-time. It doesn't matter if you ever win another pro show ( Which Samir did )

You act as if Shawn Ray was the lone guy to make such a proclamation. A number of top IFBB pros did such but fell short. Few have the resume that Ray has.

What resume? 2 pro wins in 19 tries?  but hey he was consistent  he placed second on a couple of occasions  Kevin Levrone has a resume , Flex Wheeler has a resume , Chris Cormier has a resume , Vince Taylor has a resume , Lee Labrada has a resume Shawn has no resume which is exactly why he's overrated. All-time great my ass

[NarcissisticDeity]

He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.

That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.

The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.

Add to that:

Haney's Olympia winning percentage - 89% (8 of 9) vs Coleman's Olympia winning percentage - 53% (8 of 15).

Haney debuted in 3rd place; Coleman debuted "16th".

Haney never lost the title; Coleman did.

Haney won on his 2nd try; Coleman won on his 6th try.

Haney ascended to the throne, beating the defending Mr. O (Samir Bannout); Coleman won a vacated title (Yates retired, due to injury).

So, it's a question as to whether Coleman's non-Olympia wins overshadow his lower Olympia placings, as compared to those of Haney.

He placed high regularly (as in 12 straight times) at the BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD, not merely some-run-of-the-mill pro show.

And? he almost never won any contests. You can't escape that

That's why, he didn't even have to compete in a lower-tiered show, as he was automatically qualified. Again, the concept seems to be lost that top 10 Olympia placings TRUMP winning lower-tiered shows, back in the day.

So you say. When we're talking about the greatest of all time Shawn isn't in the subject because he almost never won anything. And they just didn't have low-tired shows back then that wasn't the only option. Shawn chose his path it didn't work out for him and when you're talking about the great of all time Shawn's resume is lacking severely. 2 pro wins in 19 contests

The counter to that is there weren't as many pro shows during Haney's era as there were for Coleman's era.

True not either mans fault. Statistically Ronnie is the greatest of all-time ( something to consider John Grimek never lost a bodybuilding contest ever ) but I would rate Haney as the GOAT simply because he never had bitch tits & a huge gut and Dorian had a higher win/loss ratio than both but statistically Ronnie is the GOAT based on the numbers but Arnold could've won 10 Olympias if he wanted to so there's that to consider. But in the end Shawn isn't near any of them.

[NarcissisticDeity]

The only reason he didn't win more shows is that he only competed at the Olympia after a certain point. If he would have competed in smaller shows he would have won a lot of shows. Probably could have set a record for wins.

He put all his eggs in one basket it didn't work out for him. He should've entered more shows because he was NEVER going to win the Olympia. We can only comment on what transpired he won twice in 19 contest, not a great record by any means but he was consistent and placed second twice I'm sure that's just as good as winning the Olympia

[NarcissisticDeity]

Of course Bannout was better than Ray.

By virtue of winning the Olympia Samir is better than Shawn. So is Dickerson and anyone else who managed to win bodybuildings highest title. Shawn couldn't do it but hey he came close lol but not really. let me amend that he placed second on a couple of occasions.

[King Shizzo]

Aww crap. Somebody got ND going. This could end up rivaling the Ronnie vs. Dorian thread.

[ProudVirgin69]

Aww crap. Somebody got ND going. This could end up rivaling the Ronnie vs. Dorian thread.

Not really, his whole argument is "more titles = better than". 

true bodybuilding connoisseurs eschew the judges placings in favor of their own critical evaluations.

[King Shizzo]

Not really, his whole argument is "more titles = better than". 

true bodybuilding connoisseurs eschew the judges placings in favor of their own critical evaluations.

Yeah you can tell he's not a fan of Ray. He plays favorites, and let's it cloud his judgement.

[Wiggs]

 :'(Titles certainly contribute to the arguement but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs more and with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it again. Shawn was consistently great.

Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won an Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.

[Royalty]

Titles certainly contribute to the argue but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs bigger amd with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it against. Shawn was consistently great.

Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won An Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.

For what it’s worth...

Samir had noticeably weak hamstrings, and that is not a good look

[Wiggs]

For what it’s worth...

Samir had noticeably weak hamstrings, and that is not a good look

Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
 

[Royalty]

Samir obviously did not train his hamstrings with the same intensity as he did his other body parts.

Damn.

[G_Thang]

Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
 

Shawn ran into 2 buzzsaws. He probably gets one in like Dex if he had gone up against Jay.

[beakdoctor]

Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.

First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition.  Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L

Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.

Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.

Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a  Mr. O.

IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.

Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it  or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...

Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.

Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.

[ChristopherA]

That’s why it’s a subjective “sport”

If you ask majority I would reckon Shawn Ray > Samir

If that’s the case with being an O winner then Phil is better than Dorian, flex, Kevin, Jay, haney, Arnold

Prime Phil IS better than everyone you listed. Of course, in my opinion. When I'm comparing these guys I'm using the best version of each guy. Phil went downhill quickly after winning the O but the 2011 version was amazing. Better than all the guys you listed.

[Wiggs]

Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.

First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition.  Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L

Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.

Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.

Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a  Mr. O.

IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.

Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it  or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...

Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.

Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.

Good Post.  Where do you put Phil Heath?