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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: The_Hammer on October 06, 2006, 12:55:05 AM
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(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre2/images/aabj0358.jpg)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106516;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=98144.0;attach=106785;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106517;image)
10 years from now Mr. O will be incredible
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(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre2/images/aabj0358.jpg)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106516;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=98144.0;attach=106785;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106517;image)
10 years from now Mr. O will be incredible
u must be on crack
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Dorian by a light year.
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Doesnt even come close to Dorian
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Actually it's Ronnie it's just not in that condition anymore.
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Your photos prove what a ridiculous statement that is..
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The most hunched back of all the Mr Olympians.
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Go hammer yourself
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u are smoking crack...not even top 5
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Atwood has the widest ever with Jay a close second but Dorian's blows Jays away in terms of overall muscle...And Ronnies also in terms of overall muscle blows jays away and IMOP beats Dorian a bit(of course not 2006 Ronnie)
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Massive, but not even the best back in last week's show. ::)
(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre2/images/aabj0335.jpg)
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Dorian is still the best we have ever seen, light years ahead of Coleman and Cutler, just not a yank, so wont get any support from you lot.
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Dorian is still the best we have ever seen, light years ahead of Coleman and Cutler, just not a yank, so wont get any support from you lot.
Sooo, because the others are Yanks, you support Doz, great sense of logic there...
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(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre2/images/aabj0358.jpg)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106516;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=98144.0;attach=106785;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97886.0;attach=106517;image)
10 years from now Mr. O will be incredible
I wouldn't go that far. Franco? Dorian? Ronnie before his pinched nerve in his lat?
PB
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Dunno bout of all time.... I think doz and 98 ronnie hold that title/ The 06 jay is most def in the top 5! Hammer replace those pics with these....
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pic number 2(the first yates pic), its not even close. i like cutler, but he will never get as dry as yates and is gettting blown away. yates is just as thick and way more separated.
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He has one of the WIDEST backs, but greatest ... his Mr. O back isnt even top 20 !!
He lacks seperation and detail !!!
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;D
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This back is not in the top 20? Stop being an idiot. Def not better than doz or an old school Coleman. Most def better than most all the other people you listed. Jay was 270. Mr o's that weighed 180 are automatically out of the list. Samir was good but it aint hard to be detailed at 190 lbs.
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8)
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Best back right now is...................
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Jay's not even in the top 10 of all time!
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most improved back on a bodbuilding stage maybe
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Jay's not even in the top 10 of all time!
Amen!!!!!!!
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Amen!!!!!!!
Yes the 270 lb 2006 jay Cutler is not even in the top ten backs.... O brother ::)
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;D
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Just a joke hulk!! Dont take it serious ;)
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u must be on crack
I second that.
You need a new pair of glasses if you think Jay has the greatest back of all time
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and why should there be a weight limit before being considered having a great back? that is stupid. Samir, Ronnie, Yates, Haney and even Flex and Shawn all had better backs than Jay in their prime.
This back is not in the top 20? Stop being an idiot. Def not better than doz or an old school Coleman. Most def better than most all the other people you listed. Jay was 270. Mr o's that weighed 180 are automatically out of the list. Samir was good but it aint hard to be detailed at 190 lbs.
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and why should there be a weight limit before being considered having a great back? that is stupid. Samir, Ronnie, Yates, Haney and even Flex and Shawn all had better backs than Jay in their prime.
My point is this. Having extreme detail is not hard to do when you are 200 lbs. Samir flex and sean all had amazing backs. But the detail they showed was more due to the fact they where in BB terms "small". The "smaller" guys are always on the ones with the extreme detail. BB is not all about size. But to say this level of thickness and detail at 270 lbs @ 5'9 is not one of the best backs ever is not unbaised. It is cutler hating. Alot of jelous Ronnie fans on here. Cutler was the better man that night at the O and he just beat Ron again at the grand prix.
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Even if we take weight into consideration, Jay's lack of separations in his back and folds of skin on his lower back prevent him from being on the list of greatest backs of all-time.
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theres too many noobs here who don't know shit, If you compiling a list of the greatest backs in bodybuilding, you gotta include the following:
the "mighty" mike quinn
gary strydom
nasser el sonbaty
victor richards
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theres too many noobs here who don't know shit, If you compiling a list of the greatest backs in bodybuilding, you gotta include the following:
the "mighty" mike quinn
gary strydom
nasser el sonbaty
victor richards
if you were referring to my comment, sorry i was only willing to consider bodybuilders who are in the upper tier of the sport. and please, i hope youre not saying Strydom has one of the best backs ever, if you are then youre just contradicting youself. and i didnt say i was compiling a list of the greatest backs i was using the names to make a point, completely different.
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Not the best back; maybe the best Jay\'s back has been.
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u must be on crack
dont quote all the pictures fucktard, you make the fucking thread annoying.
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theres too many noobs here who don't know shit, If you compiling a list of the greatest backs in bodybuilding, you gotta include the following:
the "mighty" mike quinn
gary strydom
nasser el sonbaty
victor richards
;)
But Mike really had a strong as hell back.
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theres too many noobs here who don't know shit, If you compiling a list of the greatest backs in bodybuilding, you gotta include the following:
the "mighty" mike quinn
gary strydom
nasser el sonbaty
victor richards
Tell me that post was a joke. Nasser got smoked in 97 Olympia for the reason that he couldnt get hard in the back department. Nasser was awful when he turned around. Alot like Cutler was until this year.
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interesting comparison:
Jay's back compared to the REAL greatest back of all time, in almost the same pose (with two different years, 98 and 99):
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99988.0;attach=108138;image)
(http://body.builder.hu/imagebank/pictures/974182578.jpg)
(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/1999britishgrandprix/41.jpg)
Jay's back is wide, but it lacks good detail and his lower back is soft with rolls of loose skin.
A fantastic back needs more than just width - it needs detail, hardness and symmetry too.
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Light Weight......Baby
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i26/new187/LightWeight.gif)
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Jays back is not on par with Ronnie's there. But to say jays 2006 back is not in the top 20 greatest backs is laughable. plain hating. He weighs 270 lbs. The sheer size of his back puts him in the running. Couple that with good detail.. Not amazing, good. Massive size. Extreme thickness. That is a very thick back. And good condition ( his lower back is dry he has a cosmetic fault with the skin) and you have one of the best backs ever. Not the greatest one of the best. Flex wheelers back was ultra detailed. It was also extremely narrow. So jay not having extreme detail of guys weighing 70 lbs less than him is a minnor fault. His detail is plenty good. Top 10 ? Maybe not. Top 20? Of course.
It is not hard to be ultra detailed at sub 230 lb bodyweight. Nevermind 188 or 205 ::) You could argue the greats like Samir, Flex and Shawn where undersized. You could combat the detail accusations against Jay with the same principle. Doz and Ronnie had ultra detailed backs at over 250... Flex and co where just to small to compete. it is all relative. The back jay brought was one of the top 20 ever.
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Top 20 (15-20) is the best he's gonna get, no god damn lower back guarantees that.
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Check out Dorian's back relaxed...
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that pic is photoshoped. Here is the original.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Dorian%20Yates/DorianYates5.jpg)
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Jays back is not on par with Ronnie's there. But to say jays 2006 back is not in the top 20 greatest backs is laughable. plain hating. He weighs 270 lbs. The sheer size of his back puts him in the running. Couple that with good detail.. Not amazing, good. Massive size. Extreme thickness. That is a very thick back. And good condition ( his lower back is dry he has a cosmetic fault with the skin) and you have one of the best backs ever. Not the greatest one of the best. Flex wheelers back was ultra detailed. It was also extremely narrow. So jay not having extreme detail of guys weighing 70 lbs less than him is a minnor fault. His detail is plenty good. Top 10 ? Maybe not. Top 20? Of course.
It is not hard to be ultra detailed at sub 230 lb bodyweight. Nevermind 188 or 205 ::) You could argue the greats like Samir, Flex and Shawn where undersized. You could combat the detail accusations against Jay with the same principle. Doz and Ronnie had ultra detailed backs at over 250... Flex and co where just to small to compete. it is all relative. The back jay brought was one of the top 20 ever.
no detail is no detail i dont care how heavy you are. so are you now going to say the heavy competitors dont need to be in the same condition as the sub 230 lbs. bodybuildrs also? thats your reasoning. are you going to say " its easy to be ripped when youre 225 lbs.!, try beng ripped at 270?" youre not making sense. youre giving the big guys to much credit for just being big. its the total package that wins the show. and i believe Dorian was able to be detailed and big so was Ronnie in his prime. im not a Jay hater, im happy he won, he deseved it. but saying he has a great back=youre on crack.
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obviously your a jay's fan, so do i, but to say jay has the greatest back OF ALL TIME.... sorry, no!!!
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and using your logic bantam weights should be the most detailed bbder's then right?
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no detail is no detail i dont care how heavy you are. so are you now going to say the heavy competitors dont need to be in the same condition as the sub 230 lbs. bodybuildrs also? thats your reasoning. are you going to say " its easy to be ripped when youre 225 lbs.!, try beng ripped at 270?" youre not making sense. youre giving the big guys to much credit for just being big. its the total package that wins the show. and i believe Dorian was able to be detailed and big so was Ronnie in his prime. im not a Jay hater, im happy he won, he deseved it. but saying he has a great back=youre on crack.
Yet flex is on the all time best list based on detail alone? No thickness no width.
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Ownage on this supposed best back
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Arnold_Classic/2004/Arnold_Classic_2004_141.jpg)
Now this is top 10 material
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_040.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_008.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_012.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Mr_Olympia/1999/Mr.Olympia_1999_008.jpg)
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and using your logic bantam weights should be the most detailed bbder's then right?
No.... Show me one BB that was more detailed at a higher bodyweight. Prime example Ronnie C. His back in 98 99 was the best back ever. Look at him in 03....
My point was it is alot harder to be detailed and ripped at 270 than 220.
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Ownage on this supposed best back
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Arnold_Classic/2004/Arnold_Classic_2004_141.jpg)
Now this is top 10 material
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_040.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_040.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Ironman/2002/Ironman_011.jpg)
(http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/picture_gallery/Mr_Olympia/1999/Mr.Olympia_1999_008.jpg)
I said jays back in 06 ::) Learn how to read boss. Jays back is in the top 20. Pretty simple. Not the greatest ever or even top 10. Top 20 without a doubt.
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Yet flex is on the all time best list based on detail alone? No thickness no width.
no Flex is not on the list on detail alone. he is on the list because he had a great combination of both. which is my original point. if you think his back is not in the upper tier then so be it. that still doesnt equate to Jay having a great back.
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No.... Show me one BB that was more detailed at a higher bodyweight.
Ok
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no Flex is not on the list on detail alone. he is on the list because he had a great combination of both. which is my original point. if you think his back is not in the upper tier then so be it. that still doesnt equate to Jay having a great back.
I do think it is in the upper teir. But one cannot have balence with a narrow back and zero thickness. Ronnie had width thickness and detail. Not flex. His back was narrow hence making my point. You say Jay lacks detail. Well flex lacked size and def thickness.
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Ok
Wrong.... The detail doz sported at 230 especially in the midsection was incredable. Narc post the pics. So you are trying to tell me I am wrong. You think Ronnie was more detailed in 03 than in 99? O brother.
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DAVID HENRY
SERIOUSLY
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Dunno bout of all time.... I think doz and 98 ronnie hold that title/ The 06 jay is most def in the top 5! Hammer replace those pics with these....
I said jays back in 06 ::) Learn how to read boss. Jays back is in the top 20. Pretty simple. Not the greatest ever or even top 10. Top 20 without a doubt.
earlier you said his back was top 5 of all time.
now your saying top twenty?
hmmm...
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No.... Show me one BB that was more detailed at a higher bodyweight. Prime example Ronnie C. His back in 98 99 was the best back ever. Look at him in 03....
My point was it is alot harder to be detailed and ripped at 270 than 220.
ok, Victor Martinez. he was at his heaviest this Olympia and his back and overall conditioning was the best it has ever been.
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Wrong.... The detail doz sported at 230 especially in the midsection was incredable. Narc post the pics. So you are trying to tell me I am wrong. You think Ronnie was more detailed in 03 than in 99? O brother.
Jays midsection looked odd at the Olympia. Ronnie did not look more detailed in 03 than in 99 but mass blew away the field that year. No one could compete with him on any level. Asthetics may have lacked but once he walked onstage he blew everyone else off of it. Thats what counts in bb. The eyes win competitions not always asthetics.
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I do think it is in the upper teir. But one cannot have balence with a narrow back and zero thickness. Ronnie had width thickness and detail. Not flex. His back was narrow hence making my point. You say Jay lacks detail. Well flex lacked size and def thickness.
if he lacked so much size and thickness how was he able to be so prolific?
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body88 -Jay definitely deserved to win the O this year dont get me wrong. he was the best and i know youre not a Jay homer, just a difference of opinion.
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I saw Yates in person in 1995 and I saw in person Cutler in 2006.
Yates' back was better.
Jay has certain bodyparts on Yates, but not the back.
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I saw Yates in person in 1995 and I saw in person Cutler in 2006.
Yates' back was better.
Jay has certain bodyparts on Yates, but not the back.
I've seen Dorian in person....& I have a hard time believing there's a better back.
I will say Ron is a close #2
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no question Dorians back was better. and i didnt even like his phisique.
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Jay has a great back. Him and Joel Stubbs now have the top two backs in the pros, but while Jay has incredible size and density he has yet to display it as tight and separated as Doz or Ronnie. He does have quite a few years left to try and make this happen, but he's not number one right now. I do think Vic will eventually have the best back of all time.
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that pic is photoshoped. Here is the original.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Dorian%20Yates/DorianYates5.jpg)
Well it still is impressive nonetheless.
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(http://img24.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-10124/loc309/58690_DSCF7068_122_309lo.JPG)
Jay has pathetic back compared to Colemans. And chichek legs the result of pussie training. In everything else yeah he's the champ.
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pathetic, yeah , hmm hmm, ooooooook........
Well, we are all blinds i guess, thank you! I see you are a real coleman fan!
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body88 -Jay definitely deserved to win the O this year dont get me wrong. he was the best and i know youre not a Jay homer, just a difference of opinion.
No worries man I respect your argument.
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Ps I just got in... Absolutly hammered... Time for sleeeeeeeeep
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No.... Show me one BB that was more detailed at a higher bodyweight. Prime example Ronnie C. His back in 98 99 was the best back ever. Look at him in 03....
My point was it is alot harder to be detailed and ripped at 270 than 220.
03 was pretty stellar . . . this year is the first time his back has been truly sub-par.
yates had incredible separation and detail at a weight similar to Jay's.
do you really want to rank Jay over Samir just b/c jay weighs more?
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03 was pretty stellar . . . this year is the first time his back has been truly sub-par.
yates had incredible separation and detail at a weight similar to Jay's.
do you really want to rank Jay over Samir just b/c jay weighs more?
No.. I wanted to prove Jay was in the top 20 backs ever. I agree my top 5 claim was a bit much. But those claiming that back is not in the top 20 off all time are being unfair IMO. I say this because Jay lacks detail compared to the top backs. But guys like flex lacked thickness and width. So I found it hypocritical to dismiss Jay but accept wheeler.
Samir was one of the greats. His back was crazy detailed and conditioned. But it did lack size and thickness. So to say a guy with a gigantic back.. Very thick.. Good condition (not great) and great detail (not amazing) is not in the top 20 is nuts! Jay lacks the opposite of the others. So it works out to be the same in the end. Jay has them all on width and thickness (minus Ronnie and Doz which are about even).. But they have Jay on detail.. Jay was dry. The skin is a cosmetic fault. That is not water. His condition was good.
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69359.0;attach=77944;image)
(http://forum.bodybuildingpro.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1634&stc=1)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99988.0;attach=108138;image)
I think the problem is that detail goes a long way into making a back look impressive than width.
eg. Flex was narrow but was so detailed it was hard to notice.
Width is good, but if you don't have that road map look, your back will not look really impressive no matter what.
markus is a great example - super wide, lacking detail.
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I see your point hulk. I remember looking at the pics of wheeler and thinking his back was amazing. But then when you see him next to Ronnie in 98 or Maybe 99 the width difference and lack of thickness kill wheeler. To be fair Jay is in transition of poses and has not yet flexed like in the shots of ray and wheeler. You can see wheeler straining while flexing. Flex was ultra detailed. His triceps where rediculous. You could see them perfectly in his bicep shots.
I think Jay is in the top 20 backs ever. But what the hell do I know ;)
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No.. I wanted to prove Jay was in the top 20 backs ever. I agree my top 5 claim was a bit much. But those claiming that back is not in the top 20 off all time are being unfair IMO. I say this because Jay lacks detail compared to the top backs. But guys like flex lacked thickness and width. So I found it hypocritical to dismiss Jay but accept wheeler.
Samir was one of the greats. His back was crazy detailed and conditioned. But it did lack size and thickness. So to say a guy with a gigantic back.. Very thick.. Good condition (not great) and great detail (not amazing) is not in the top 20 is nuts! Jay lacks the opposite of the others. So it works out to be the same in the end. Jay has them all on width and thickness (minus Ronnie and Doz which are about even).. But they have Jay on detail.. Jay was dry. The skin is a cosmetic fault. That is not water. His condition was good.
samir wasn't as wide as jay . . . w the exception of ruhl and that new guy from england, nobody is as wide as jay. but samir had a lot of density . . . he was very strong in the back movements and you could tell.
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samir wasn't as wide as jay . . . w the exception of ruhl and that new guy from england, nobody is as wide as jay. but samir had a lot of density . . . he was very strong in the back movements and you could tell.
Samir never struck me as a powerful dense looking back. It was great and I could never have a back like that but it did not look thick to me imo.His back detail was unreal.Samir was perfect in 83. Robby r looked thick and dense imo. Just the claim of jay being the widest guy ever with good detail, awesome thickness and good condition give him a claim at the top 20. Ruhl is wide but his back looks atrocious.
In my mind this is perfection when it comes to physiques.
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In my mind this is perfection when it comes to physiques.
Word bro 8)
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Samir never struck me as a powerful dense looking back. It was great and I could never have a back like that but it did not look thick to me imo.
I thought it looked thick and dense.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Samir%20Bannout/SamirBannout48a.jpg)
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Coleman has the biggest back ever!!!!
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(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/ronnie-coleman-2001-arnold-classic/32.jpg)
studio shot from 2001 :o
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For me its a toss up between Ronnie (at his peak) and Dorian for greatest back ever. Then Haney and then Samir. But after all those greats heres the next guy for whoever needs a reminder............... The Dominator!!!!!!
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(http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/ronnie-coleman-2001-arnold-classic/32.jpg)
studio shot from 2001 :o
That is the way Coleman's back is suppose to look. It didn't look like that last yr, nor this year. Jay's back this year would never match this back. Damn, Jay beat a subpar Ronnie. I beat Shawn Ray is kicking himself, because he never beat a subpar Dorian.
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I thought it looked thick and dense.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/NeoSeminole/Samir%20Bannout/SamirBannout48a.jpg)
His back looks fantastic there. But IMO not very thick and powerful looking. This is in relative terms obv. His back in incredable compared to the average pro bb.
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That is the way Coleman's back is suppose to look. It didn't look like that last yr, nor this year. Jay's back this year would never match this back. Damn, Jay beat a subpar Ronnie. I beat Shawn Ray is kicking himself, because he never beat a subpar Dorian.
Jay did bear a sub-par Ronnie and Shawn couldn't beat a sub-par Dorian because he was 60 pounds lighter! Jay was 274lbs at the O and Ronnie was close to 300 compensating for the height difference the edge in size was negated .
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Zoom the pic in and see for yourself Jay's back is pathetic and the legs from the rear also pathetic the result of pussy training. Ronnie is the king. The jay's back my be wide but its from its blocky stocky body structure.
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99988.0;attach=108367;image)
(http://www.dennis-james.com/Gallery/01ac/images/full/djames_AC02e.jpg)
Jay is VERY LUCKY that he was able to stick around long enough to wait until Father Time caught up with Ronnie...
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Jay is VERY LUCKY
no such thing a luck.
(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre1/images/aabj0475.jpg)
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no such thing a luck.
(http://www.flexonline.com/06contests/06olympia/menpre1/images/aabj0475.jpg)
yes, I would say that beating a former champion (that dominated you) by sticking around until he was 43 years of age is very lucky.
Jay could never ever come close to beating ronnie when he was
1. in shape
2. not old (for a pro)
3. not injured.
If I were Jay, the victory would be bitter sweet:
everyone kwows that Jay didn't beat Ronnie.
Father Time beat Ronnie.
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Victor was Robbed for the Olympia. This is an olympian quality back. Looking at cutler is an embarrasment
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yes, I would say that beating a former champion (that dominated you) by sticking around until he was 43 years of age is very lucky.
Jay could never ever come close to beating ronnie when he was
1. in shape
2. not old (for a pro)
3. not injured.
If I were Jay, the victory would be bitter sweet:
everyone kwows that Jay didn't beat Ronnie.
Father Time beat Ronnie.
Jay Hasnt lost a major contest to anyone, that wasnt named Ronnie, in over 5 years.
Jay isnt depending on "luck"
He is getting bigger and better each year. "Luck" has nothing to do with it.
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Victor was Robbed for the Olympia. This is an olympian quality back. Looking at cutler is an embarrasment
Victor had no thigh cuts
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,
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Jay is a bottle of oil and he has no maturity or thickness in his back..
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69359.0;attach=77944;image)
(http://forum.bodybuildingpro.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1634&stc=1)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99988.0;attach=108138;image)
I think the problem is that detail goes a long way into making a back look impressive than width.
eg. Flex was narrow but was so detailed it was hard to notice.
Width is good, but if you don't have that road map look, your back will not look really impressive no matter what.
markus is a great example - super wide, lacking detail.
jay dwarfs flex and shawn, and now ronnie :D
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jay dwarfs flex and shawn, and now ronnie
So? Nasser's back at his prime would dwarf Jay's. I guess that means Nasser's back is better. ::)
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Jay Hasnt lost a major contest to anyone, that wasnt named Ronnie, in over 5 years.
Jay isnt depending on "luck"
He is getting bigger and better each year. "Luck" has nothing to do with it.
Jay may not need to be lucky in order to beat Gunter, Rhul and Gastavo, but he certainly needed luck to beat Ronnie Coleman.
When Ronnie is ON and uninjured, Jay is not close. Come on Royalty, you should know that.
(http://www.bigroncoleman.com/media/GrandPrix2/GP03B.jpg)
eg. for all this talk of how much Jay's back got wider, he is damn lucky that this didn't step onstage beside him! It would put things into persective very quickly. Remember, this shot is a mere 2 years old.