Weak chest...after 8 years.

[Overload]

Pumpster - you cannot isolate a muscle period. your bodybuilding magazine articles do not overpower the function of our anatomy. you can concentrate on a muscle while contracting it and make it do most of the work but other muscles will always come into play. for every movement you have a "series" of muscles contracting while others assist and/or support, this is common knowledge in my field of study. yes having a degree in Kinesiology means i understand the anatomy of the human body more than anything else, i also have a degree in Civil Engineering and i doubt anyone would argue with me about hydrology just because i learned it in school and it's based on math. i have no problem with you besides the fact that you delete my posts that prove you wrong over and over. food for your brain - the bicep "concentration" curl involves over 10 muscles...think about that.

cand - you have no idea what you are talking about. when doing benchpress you will extend both parts of the arm(causing the elbow to approach a locked position, even if you do not lock out completely) no matter what. you cannot press a weight without using your triceps and delts. the "focus" of the pec contraction is important and i agree you must do this but to say you can bench press with only your pec major and minor(when they tie into other muscles and work as a unit) shows how uneducated you are. it's impossible to relax your delts and do a chest movement, they work as a unit, at least if you are a human. please study some anatomy or kinesiology, it is fascinating stuff and is not based on theory. it's all proven facts from years of actual evidence.

i will not dispute this information with two guys who have never studied in this field.

[Overload]

You are right, I've always been told to pinch the shoulders back and when I do I cant bench as much so it always frustrating.  

This is because your chest is weak, which helps explain your problem. by using this form you are placing more load on the pecs, which is what you want. the fact that you are weaker in this position should help indicate that you should train this way to bring the chest up to par.

Bench correctly for a few months and i bet you are stronger and your chest will improve.

[candidate2025]

alright overload, so you are saying that there is no possible way for the forearm to extend with out having a tricep contraction?

[Overload]

alright overload, so you are saying that there is no possible way for the forearm to extend with out having a tricep contraction?

Explain why you think it wouldn't? please use some documented notes from the medical field, not a bodybuilding theory.

i've already answered your question. for our anatomy to move "in any way" it requires a muscle to contract to a degree.

[pumpster]

Pumpster - you cannot isolate a muscle period. your bodybuilding magazine articles do not overpower the function of our anatomy. you can concentrate on a muscle while contracting it and make it do most of the work but other muscles will always come into play. for every movement you have a "series" of muscles contracting while others assist and/or support, this is common knowledge in my field of study. yes having a degree in Kinesiology means i understand the anatomy of the human body more than anything else, i also have a degree in Civil Engineering and i doubt anyone would argue with me about hydrology just because i learned it in school and it's based on math. i have no problem with you besides the fact that you delete my posts that prove you wrong over and over. food for your brain - the bicep "concentration" curl involves over 10 muscles...think about that.

Those who get hung up on this argument always dwell on semantics. Whether a muscle can be completely, technically isolated is an aside. In practice of course a muscle can be isolated more in some exercises than others, relatively speaking. That's what's meant, rather than technical arguments about whether it's 100% possible.

I've deleted very very few posts, so be honest and mention that as well as the fact that you had something to do with the deletions, if you're going to dwell on history again.

[candidate2025]

Explain why you think it wouldn't? please use some documented notes from the medical field, not a bodybuilding theory.

i've already answered your question. for our anatomy to move "in any way" it requires a muscle to contract to a degree.

see. this is where i will ave to say that i dont really know the answer for certain, but; i am pretty sure that a bone CAN move without a contraction happening.
watch. rest your arm down to your side. now contrat your bicep so you pull your forearm up., now release all bicep tension, and let your arm be still.    what happened? IT FELL. BECAUSE YOU CONTRACTED YOUR TRICEP? NO, BECAUSE THE FORCE OF GRAVITY PULL IT DOWN.  BUT YOUR FOREARM EXTENDED, AND YOU DIDNT CONTRACT YOUR TRICEP? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? (sorry about the caps, i didnt mean for that to happen).   

its basicly the same thing happening with the chest contraction...  you are pushing your humerous bone up, and as that happens you forearm is sliding in its joint outward, not as a result of a tricep contaction, but as a result of physics... because it HAS to move that way if your hand is gripped onto a weight, and your humerous is extendding upward.


the key is to LET this sliding hapening, not to force it with the tricep. if you relax al the muscles other than your chest...this wil happen naturally; and you will not be using any other muscle.



there you go.

you cant learn everything from college professors.

[Overload]

see. this is where i will ave to say that i dont really know the answer for certain, but; i am pretty sure that a bone CAN move without a contraction happening.
watch. rest your arm down to your side. now contrat your bicep so you pull your forearm up., now release all bicep tension, and let your arm be still.    what happened? IT FELL. BECAUSE YOU CONTRACTED YOUR TRICEP? NO, BECAUSE THE FORCE OF GRAVITY PULL IT DOWN.  BUT YOUR FOREARM EXTENDED, AND YOU DIDNT CONTRACT YOUR TRICEP? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? (sorry about the caps, i didnt mean for that to happen).   

its basicly the same thing happening with the chest contraction...  you are pushing your humerous bone up, and as that happens you forearm is sliding in its joint outward, not as a result of a tricep contaction, but as a result of physics... because it HAS to move that way if your hand is gripped onto a weight, and your humerous is extendding upward.


the key is to LET this sliding hapening, not to force it with the tricep. if you relax al the muscles other than your chest...this wil happen naturally; and you will not be using any other muscle.

Wrong. A BONE CANNOT MOVE WITHOUT SOME SORT OF CONTRACTION!!! THAT IS HOW OUR BONES MOVE! even while falling due to gravity there will be a contraction to some degree. i'm just going to laugh about the rest of your post as it has ZERO merit.

show me some anatomy or just let it be, you are wrong.

please don't bring physics into this, i know WAY more about that than you do.

this is my last reply to you.

[Overload]

Whether a muscle can be completely, technically isolated is an aside. In practice of course a muscle can be isolated more in some exercises than others, relatively speaking. That's what's meant, rather than technical arguments about whether it's 100% possible.

Finally i agree with you and you understood my point, which was that muscles always work together.

Yes it can be more isolated "relatively" speaking, causing more tension on that certian muscle.

I never post in here anyway so the deleted post don't matter.

[pumpster]

Finally i agree with you and you understood my point, which was that muscles always work together.

Yes it can be more isolated "relatively" speaking, causing more tension on that certian muscle.

I never post in here anyway so the deleted post don't matter.

Actually my point is that what you're saying is only one side, the other being a less literal interpretation that doesn't agree. What creates disagreement is the definition but in fact bottom line a muscle can be isolated, using a less narrow perspective.

[Herc]

I dont believe it is possible that you were getting much stronger but not getting any size.  You probably just didnt notice the size because its not always obvious to ourselves.  I never think I look bigger after my lifts go up but usually someone else will notice.  You cant get stronger without more muscle and therefore more size.  Maybe a slight increase is possible with no size by just training your already existing muscles to be more powerfull but any substantial strength gain will get you size

Forget all this 5 second pause.  Go heavy and try to bench as much as you can.  Its not a good mentality in the gym to not care about what you are lifting.  Pumps dont mean shit either.  I could do 200 pushups and I gurentee Ill have a great pump but this wont do anything for my pec development.  I could curl 15lbs dumbells for 50 reps and get a pump but its just blood going to the muscles and the burn is just lactic acid buildup which has no bearing on getting stronger or a better physique.  You need to bust your ass and go as heavy as possible.  If you once did 300 set out to do more at a much lower wieght. 

Honestly after years of lifting I have to say your genetics play the major role on the shape of your muscles and you really cant make drastic changes in your muscle shape in my opinion.  I have the same problem with my chest.  When I only benched 200lbs it was really bad and I had almost no upper chest at all, now that I can do much more I have at least some upper chest and seperation although it will always be and issue.  What im saying is you answer isnt so much cables or incline flys but is to get your strength up.  There was a time I tried every isolation exersise possible and I got no growth.  For me power movements like bench or incline dumbell press are the only things that will make my chest grow.  Find what ever makes you stronger but go intense with a fast and powerfull positive contraction and almost no pause because it just tires you out.

[pumpster]

Honestly after years of lifting I have to say your genetics play the major role on the shape of your muscles and you really cant make drastic changes in your muscle shape in my opinion.  I have the same problem with my chest.  When I only benched 200lbs it was really bad and I had almost no upper chest at all, now that I can do much more I have at least some upper chest and seperation although it will always be and issue.  What im saying is you answer isnt so much cables or incline flys but is to get your strength up.  There was a time I tried every isolation exersise possible and I got no growth.  For me power movements like bench or incline dumbell press are the only things that will make my chest grow.  Find what ever makes you stronger but go intense with a fast and powerfull positive contraction and almost no pause because it just tires you out.

Where i disagree is when it comes to size, getting your strength and increasing poundages works on any exercise, isolation or compound. Work your way up to heavy flys and you'll get as much development as your potential allows.

As far as pump, it can be indicative of effectively hitting the muscles IMO IF it's achieved using moderate reps and heavy weights, not endless pumping motions with no resistance.

Ya, forgot those long pauses, don't know where you got that.

[The Squadfather]

Where i disagree is when it comes to size, getting your strength and increasing poundages works on any exercise, isolation or compound. Work your way up to heavy flys and you'll get as much development as your potential allows.

As far as pump, it can be indicative of effectively hitting the muscles IMO IF it's achieved using moderate reps and heavy weights, not endless pumping motions with no resistance.

Ya, forgot those long pauses, don't know where you got that.

exactly, it always makes me laugh when you get this macho meathead mentality that benches and inclines are the only "hardcore" movemnts you can do, heavy db flyes are at least as hard as benches if not more so.

[candidate2025]

even while falling due to gravity there will be a contraction to some degree.

why? if thats true, can you please explain it to me.

[Herc]

Its not some macho meathead mentality, it has just been after years of trail and error finding things that work and things that dont.  Like I said "for me power movement work best" and to find whatever works best for you.  I personally have gotten no reall gains from doing flys and machines but if others do then do it.  I for whatever reason get better growth from compound freewieght exersises.  As far as pumps go ive had times where im really pumped from a workout and get no gains and others where I only do 2 sets per body part and have had great gains.  Im not saying there is no validity as to whether it proves you are working the muscle but am saying it has no value in judging whether a workout went well or not.  If a workout went well you know because you can lift more the next time not having swollen arms for 15 minutes.  Ive heard people say things like "wow that work out gave me a good pump" but they look the same a month or two later so what is the purpose of getting a good pump unless it is to try to get some girls within a few minutes of after your workout if it has no correlation in strength and size gains.

[lilbg]

Holy crap what happened to my post lol.  I got my chset workout in yesturday and had a hard time keeping my shoulders pinched back.  I felt like I had to lift my self up then pinch the shoulders back and lay down.  I didnt feel a full contraction on my chest with my shoulders pulled back but im sure im just not used to it yet.  I had to do less weight but I am keeping my reps 8 and higher for now to see how that does.  I am also adding a day in for cable work alone.  Thank for all the advice.

[pumpster]

Holy crap what happened to my post lol.  I got my chset workout in yesturday and had a hard time keeping my shoulders pinched back.  I felt like I had to lift my self up then pinch the shoulders back and lay down.  I didnt feel a full contraction on my chest with my shoulders pulled back but im sure im just not used to it yet.  I had to do less weight but I am keeping my reps 8 and higher for now to see how that does.  I am also adding a day in for cable work alone.  Thank for all the advice.

Ya pinching the shoulders back is good in theory but sometimes isn't practical, ESPECIALLY later in the set when you gut out some extra reps. Most important thing is feeling it in the muscle, whatever form accomplishes that. Dumbbell presses help i think in working the muscles more with less stress on the joints. You can use different grips - neutral, palms out or in, etc. all of which will work the muscle differently.

[coltrane]

i don't have much trouble training chest, but one little thing extra i do are flat flyes, only the bottom half of the rep.  Go a little heavier than you normally would, but just go a little more than half way up. (or "around" the tree as they say).

Also, cut down your time between sets.

[pumpster]

i don't have much trouble training chest, but one little thing extra i do are flat flyes, only the bottom half of the rep.  Go a little heavier than you normally would, but just go a little more than half way up. (or "around" the tree as they say).

Also, cut down your time between sets.

I'm big on partials, they're seriously under-rated and can be better for size than full strict reps. Lower part of flys, middle part of curls (cheats basically amount to partials), box squats for quad size, the beginning half of chins and pulldowns, etc.

[coltrane]

yes, plus you can use a little more weight

[Get Rowdy]

If my chest is lagging, would you guys reccomend training it twice a week? or is it too large of a muscle group to recover in time?

[pumpster]

If my chest is lagging, would you guys reccomend training it twice a week? or is it too large of a muscle group to recover in time?

No there's definitely enough time to recover. Try twice a week for a few months and see if it helps. Most top BBs of the last 4 decades hit each muscle twice a week, regardless of size.

[Get Rowdy]

Great.  I'll definately start that.