Hussein men 'buried inmates alive'

[OzmO]

yes we are the richest country in the world so according to you we should
be #1 in education- we are not..never were. so we should be # 1 in everything across the board then huh? becuase we have the money. well we have always been the riches country in the world but never # 1 across the board which is what your train of thought is.

No, i just think we could do much better and there are better places for 800 Billiion to be spent.  We could be number 2 or 4 of 5.  Point is, does the average kid get a good education in America?  NO.  What do you think would happen if class room size never was over 18 students per class?  Do you think teachers could teach and help students better?  Money can make that happen.  800 billion canmake that a reality.  Wouldn't you want your kid to be able to learn a musical insturment in school if he wanted? 

[OzmO]

No I don't believe the U.S. put people in the Iraqi government who will ensure whatever private contracts Iraq has with private U.S. companies will never be broken.  That's an example of the wild innuendo I mentioned earlier.  We might influence Iraq's imports/exports, like we probably do with many other countries, but the only thing they have of any real value is oil, and we don't control their oil. 

Also, we already had a military presence in Germany, Spain, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, so we didn't need a base in Iraq.  That isn't why we went to war. 

It happens in the US in a similar way right now.  How do you think Haliburton got a no-bid contract?   Hmm could it be Cheney?

Also, putting people who will do our bidding (indirectly and directly) in government positions in a new government is a very pruduent thing to do anyway.  You really don't believe we are so silly as to leave things like this to chance?

BB, it's not a wild innuendo.  It's a fact.  It sound long term stratagey.

AND........

Our military presence in Germany is a result of the cold war.  But in Turkey, suadi and kuwait......... That's not a military presence....  maybe 10k per country if that.   150k!  now that's a military presence.  along with a new government we strongly influenced in setting up.

[Dos Equis]

It happens in the US in a similar way right now.  How do you think Haliburton got a no-bid contract?   Hmm could it be Cheney?

Also, putting people who will do our bidding (indirectly and directly) in government positions in a new government is a very pruduent thing to do anyway.  You really don't believe we are so silly as to leave things like this to chance?

BB, it's not a wild innuendo.  It's a fact.  It sound long term stratagey.

AND........

Our military presence in Germany is a result of the cold war.  But in Turkey, suadi and kuwait......... That's not a military presence....  maybe 10k per country if that.   150k!  now that's a military presence.  along with a new government we strongly influenced in setting up.

Come on Ozmo.  It's not a fact at all that the U.S. placed puppets in the Iraqi government to control contracts with private U.S companies.  I understand the strategy and how it would possibly work, but this claim is pure supposition.

Yes we have a huge presence in Iraq now, because we're still at war.  There will be a reduction in force in the gulf over time.  There has to be.  We don't have the manpower to keep over 150,000 soldiers on the ground in Iraq.  (They've had to use Honolulu police officers to man the gates at Schofield Barracks because so many soldiers were gone.)  I think when all is said and done we will have one division (12-15,000 soldiers), some air force, some marines, and a ship somewhere nearby.   

I think what we agree on is the war was poorly planned and in part poorly executed.  Not enough manpower.  Those who said we needed more manpower were silenced (e.g., General Shinseki).  Some of our equipment was inadequate.  Our PR campaign was terrible.  We're not trained to effectively fight a guerilla war.  We've lost too many service members.   

We disagree on whether we should have gone in to begin with and what our motivations were/are. 

[OzmO]

Come on Ozmo.  It's not a fact at all that the U.S. placed puppets in the Iraqi government to control contracts with private U.S companies.  I understand the strategy and how it would possibly work, but this claim is pure supposition.

It's not as straight forward as that.  They will place people in those postiions who will protect their interests by the mere fact those people's interests are the same or otherwise.  They aren't puppets in the straight forward sense of the word.  But they are bought and paid for in the sense of those words.

Yes we have a huge presence in Iraq now, because we're still at war.  There will be a reduction in force in the gulf over time.  There has to be.  We don't have the manpower to keep over 150,000 soldiers on the ground in Iraq.  (They've had to use Honolulu police officers to man the gates at Schofield Barracks because so many soldiers were gone.)  I think when all is said and done we will have one division (12-15,000 soldiers), some air force, some marines, and a ship somewhere nearby.   

There's the quandry at present...............Wi ll it ever be stable?  So far it looks like it's getting worse.  If they are using police officers to man gates then we are spread very thin..........dangerousl y thin.   

There is only 2 scenarios that we will leave under:

1.  The country stablizes and the insurgency is crushed.  (doesn't look like our present actions are working) 

2.  The American people get fed up enough and public opinion forces them out.   (more likely this will happen)

I think what we agree on is the war was poorly planned and in part poorly executed.  Not enough manpower.  Those who said we needed more manpower were silenced (e.g., General Shinseki).  Some of our equipment was inadequate.  Our PR campaign was terrible.  We're not trained to effectively fight a guerilla war.  We've lost too many service members.   

I agree.

 

[ATHEIST]

No, i just think we could do much better and there are better places for 800 Billiion to be spent.  We could be number 2 or 4 of 5.  Point is, does the average kid get a good education in America?  NO.  What do you think would happen if class room size never was over 18 students per class?  Do you think teachers could teach and help students better?  Money can make that happen.  800 billion canmake that a reality.  Wouldn't you want your kid to be able to learn a musical insturment in school if he wanted? 

the average kid in the U.S also doesnt take advantage of the things he already has. my point is that kids with much less around the world make do with what they have and excel. i dont know if it would be possible to make class sizes no larger than 18, it would greatly benefit them though. how would they do that? there are far more kids now than ever right? and yes playing a musical instrument is directly related to overall intelligence and is proven to increase IQ. all kids should play an instrument for at least a year it should be required.

[OzmO]

the average kid in the U.S also doesnt take advantage of the things he already has. my point is that kids with much less around the world make do with what they have and excel. i dont know if it would be possible to make class sizes no larger than 18, it would greatly benefit them though. how would they do that? there are far more kids now than ever right? and yes playing a musical instrument is directly related to overall intelligence and is proven to increase IQ. all kids should play an instrument for at least a year it should be required.

If teachers made more money it would encourage more people to teach.  With more money, schools could build more class rooms and school districts could require higher standards of teachers.  THat's how we could get to 18 per class.

[24KT]

Contracts can always be broken. 

{giggle} And as soon as they are, ...that nation comes off the list of democratic free societies or allied partner states, and get's put on the list of terrorist nations, or nations that support & harbour terrorists and need to be bombed into oblivion, ...or at least destabilized to such an extent, the government is overthrown in favour of a US hand-picked appointee (sanctioned by free elections of course.)   

Beach Bum, ...you're so cute in a naive sorta way. How have the girls wrapped you round their pinky's lately?

[Dos Equis]

{giggle} And as soon as they are, ...that nation comes off the list of democratic free societies or allied partner states, and get's put on the list of terrorist nations, or nations that support & harbour terrorists and need to be bombed into oblivion, ...or at least destabilized to such an extent, the government is overthrown in favour of a US hand-picked appointee (sanctioned by free elections of course.)   

Beach Bum, ...you're so cute in a naive sorta way. How have the girls wrapped you round their pinky's lately?

I see.  The U.S. invades Iraq so it can allow Halliburton to obtain a "no-bid" contract with the government of Iraq.  The contract doesn't give the U.S. control of Iraq's oil, but it allows Halliburton to earn substantially increased profits.  The U.S. puts a puppet in the Iraqi government to ensure the contract is not broken.  If the contract is broken, the U.S. government puts Iraq on a terrorist list and starts the bombing all over again.  Geeze Louise.   

My girls don't have me wrapped around anything.      Maybe the little one, who likes to say "goodnight" to me about three separate times a night so she can keep giving me sugar.   

[24KT]

My girls don't have me wrapped around anything.      

Sha right! 

Delusional in a loveable sorta way. Truth is... they OWN you.

Maybe the little one, who likes to say "goodnight" to me about three separate times a night so she can keep giving me sugar.   

She's softening you up, ...wait til she goes for the juggular... starts rolling out the heavy artillery on you,
...looks up at you with those big brown eyes and says "Please Daddy". You'll be toast. Might as well stick a fork in ya

[OzmO]

I see.  The U.S. invades Iraq so it can allow Halliburton to obtain a "no-bid" contract with the government of Iraq.  The contract doesn't give the U.S. control of Iraq's oil, but it allows Halliburton to earn substantially increased profits.  The U.S. puts a puppet in the Iraqi government to ensure the contract is not broken.  If the contract is broken, the U.S. government puts Iraq on a terrorist list and starts the bombing all over again.  Geeze Louise.   

My girls don't have me wrapped around anything.      Maybe the little one, who likes to say "goodnight" to me about three separate times a night so she can keep giving me sugar.   

OK  BB,  do you really think the US will be OK with people in high ranking government positions in the new Iraqi government who do not share US interests? I'd be willing to bet many of those people who hold high ranking positions have stock in some of these companies who are "rebuilding" Iraq.   Do you think they would be OK with a person who thinks Iraq should profit where haliburton is?  Becuase really they should.

Com on, BB.  These Galant ethical ideals by our government you seem to take for granted are not the real world and never have been.  It's what been spoon fed to the American public for years................  com on, do you really think arabs "HATE DEMOCRACY?"  Of course not.  They hate the American Government and it's stupid people who back it's aggressive and oppressive actions.  Becuase they know the truth, they have to live with it.  We on the other hand live in a protected capsule isolated from it all and are fed BS like "Sadaam was a monster and we are obligated to do something about it as justification for spending 800 billion and losing 2700 US soldiers......  Nam all over again but worse.    Haven't we as a people learned yet? 

[Dos Equis]

OK  BB,  do you really think the US will be OK with people in high ranking government positions in the new Iraqi government who do not share US interests? I'd be willing to bet many of those people who hold high ranking positions have stock in some of these companies who are "rebuilding" Iraq.   Do you think they would be OK with a person who thinks Iraq should profit where haliburton is?  Becuase really they should.

Com on, BB.  These Galant ethical ideals by our government you seem to take for granted are not the real world and never have been.  It's what been spoon fed to the American public for years................  com on, do you really think arabs "HATE DEMOCRACY?"  Of course not.  They hate the American Government and it's stupid people who back it's aggressive and oppressive actions.  Becuase they know the truth, they have to live with it.  We on the other hand live in a protected capsule isolated from it all and are fed BS like "Sadaam was a monster and we are obligated to do something about it as justification for spending 800 billion and losing 2700 US soldiers......  Nam all over again but worse.    Haven't we as a people learned yet? 

The U.S. will not get to determine who controls Iraq, so it's sort of a moot point.  The Iraqi elections will determine who runs the country.  I'm sure we'll do everything we can to influence the outcome of those elections, but that is a far cry from selecting a person who will be placed in the government for the sole purpose of safeguarding contracts with private U.S. companies. 

I don't trust the government.  I don't trust them with my money and I don't trust them to safeguard my liberties.  That's why the courts and the media play such an important role (even though I detest the media).  I understand our government is not beyond doing very bad things.  What I don't buy is the theory that we went to war to steal oil or  to benefit Halliburton.  You cannot follow the theory from start to finish without including some rather absurd propositions.  It doesn't make any sense.

I don't automatically discount conspiracy theories, but all of the dominos have to line up for me to start believing.     
 

[Dos Equis]

Sha right! 

Delusional in a loveable sorta way. Truth is... they OWN you.

She's softening you up, ...wait til she goes for the juggular... starts rolling out the heavy artillery on you,
...looks up at you with those big brown eyes and says "Please Daddy". You'll be toast. Might as well stick a fork in ya

How do you know she has brown eyes? 

She already gives me the "sad face," which works much too often. 

[OzmO]

The U.S. will not get to determine who controls Iraq, so it's sort of a moot point.  The Iraqi elections will determine who runs the country.  I'm sure we'll do everything we can to influence the outcome of those elections, but that is a far cry from selecting a person who will be placed in the government for the sole purpose of safeguarding contracts with private U.S. companies. 

The U.S. will determine what group gets elected.  That's a certainty.  They will fund the group they want in power and they will undermine the group(s) they don't want in power.  The message wll be clear:  You want US aid?  Then this group (the one America wants, the one that will uphold contracts and pay offs to companies from America) will be in power.  If they ever stablize the country and that's a big IF, America will influence the elctions via financial funding, media campaigns, and a partnership with the rich and powerful of Iraq.  Opposition groups won't have a chance. 

This isn't palistine, where HAMAS was the popular elected group and won the election and the US ended it's fanancial aid as a result.  this is Iraq where America has invested economic interests in it's resources.    The ONLY way for that not to happen in Iraq is if the insurgency wins.  The insurgency knows they cannot win in a fiancial media war in a democratic arena with the united states backed groups in Iraq.  So they are doing what America has failed to stop in Nam and now in Iraq.

I don't trust the government.  I don't trust them with my money and I don't trust them to safeguard my liberties.  That's why the courts and the media play such an important role (even though I detest the media).  I understand our government is not beyond doing very bad things.  What I don't buy is the theory that we went to war to steal oil or  to benefit Halliburton.  You cannot follow the theory from start to finish without including some rather absurd propositions.  It doesn't make any sense.

One thing that seems to find it's way into converstions is "conspiracy".  This is no conspiracy.  It's the nature of the beast.  It's what we do.  It's how we control things and protect our interests.  I used to view our government and it's actions much like you do.  then about 10 years ago i started looking at alternantive sources of news and information and began to realize a few things:

"The Government of the United States is continually in the act of spewing propaganda in order to manipulate and or manage public opinion"

Here's some basic propaganda regarding this war:

-  WMD's
-  We are there to establish democracy
-  People in the middle east don't want democracy
-  Sadaam was a (real time) threat to the security of the United States

All of that is BULL Cha Cha.

We are not going to do anything unless there is something in it for us.

Be that:

-  controlling oil distribution
-  Geo-political influence
-  Military influence

We didn't go in there on a charity mission. 

Concerning Haliburton:  (Haliburton is one of the many things we are there to benefit from)  Just use some common sense:

-  How ethical is a "no-bid" contract in the first place?
-  Don't you think there is a serious conflict of interest with Dick Cheney being that he has strong ties with Haliburton?
-  If Dick Cheney had 1 shread of integrity he would have insisted on a "bidding contract" and discourage the government from awarding Haliburton the contract.

That is plain curruption at the highest level of Governement.

Do you really think for 1 second during the time from 9/11 to the start of the Iraq war that Haliburton and Dick Cheney didn't know how a US invasioin and take over of Iraq would benefit Haliburton and how Dick Cheney could arrange "no-bid" contracts for them? 

Do you think that there wasn't any motivation on the Part of Cheney and Bush in that regard to invade Iraq?  It's was all part of the fruits of conquest.  Do you think this Halaburton thing happened by chance?

It's simple common sense here. 

this is what is soo gauling to me:  They have pretty much waved this corruption in front of our faces and the American people are soo Glazed over by their TV shows and Movie stars to pay any mind to it.