Athiests are more noble than god believing folks...cause...

[ToxicAvenger]

Sorry Toxy.  I guess I'm just trying to understand if you decide if someone is considered "good" by them committing more "good" acts than the number of "bad."

So would you think the 2 acts negate each other or does the one not count because you were unaware of the full situation?



I do all of the above and I do them so often (except for the drugs part [now ]) that I KNOW that if they counted against me I'd be considered more bad than good. 

i'll go with what my dad once told me what mohammed said " actions r judged by intentions"

Also, each time you break the law (speeding, rolling through a stopsign, using illegal drugs etc),  does that negate some of the good things you've done or not?

i dont consider any little traffic violation as bad...if i'm going 90 mph on an empty highway i'm not really hurting anyone else...so why is that bad?

[a_joker10]

The basis of morality  amongst religious types is fear of god...

atheists are good because its in their nature to be good...they make their choice to be good without fear of going to hell...


Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell...so it still leaves to beg whether these same folks would still be good if god ws taken out of the equation?

who knows...


all i know is...I'm an atheist...and i still do good without expecting a heaven as reward in the end.

doing good without expecting reward is more noble in my eyes


thankyou

Goodness has little to do with religion.
Hitler was very religious and so was Ghandi.

Stalin and Pol Pot were not religious.
Mother Teresa and the Dhali Lama are both religious and good people.
War and slavery is part of both the rational of religious and non-religious.

Most acts are due to factors that have little to do with religion, but religion can help you do good acts.

Christian morality isn't based in religion of fear because as a Christian I already know I failed.
My morality is based on the fact that through good deeds I will bring enjoyment to others.

There is no greater gift than seeing someone enjoy something that you did for them, this especially true if they don't know it was from you.

Only through sacrifice and suffering can you truly understand joy.

That is point of both Lent and Ramadan.

[Necrosis]

id also like to re-iterate that there is no such thing as good or bad, merely choices and outcomes we label. you make a choice and our inherent morality decides the nature of the act.

[a_joker10]

id also like to re-iterate that there is no such thing as good or bad, merely choices and outcomes we label. you make a choice and our inherent morality decides the nature of the act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

Society dictates morality.

[Necrosis]

i dont think it does for many reasons, however they have already been talked about out the ass, so go back and read them if you want but there are faults in your society schema.

[a_joker10]

i dont think it does for many reasons, however they have already been talked about out the ass, so go back and read them if you want but there are faults in your society schema.

Morality is based on a few things.
A basic first year ethics class would tell you what they are.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

You can argue with Stanford. Personally I don't know enough about the topic to argue with someone with a doctorate in Philosophy.

If you don't agree with them and you can prove to me that you know more then the Stanford Philosophy department, then I will listen to you.

[Hedgehog]

Can you please explain how this helps your side and not mine?   :$  <-----see what I tried to do there

Christians believe in a "Good" and a "Bad".

Eg, an action could be deemed good or bad. Killing a man is bad, and littering is as well. They are not equally bad though.

Forgiving someone and to open the door for a retard, are examples of good actions.

I thought you, as a Christian, knew this?

YIP
Zack

[loco]

srry steller but what toxic wrote, s'tru

Sorry Clubber Lang, but what STella wrote is the truth!

[loco]

Christians, Jews and Muslims are good because they believe if they r not good they r gonna end up in hell

ToxicAvenger,
That is not what Christianity teaches.  In fact, this is what makes Christianity unique.  All other religions are based on "human achievement", while Christianity is based on "God's intervention".  It is not what we do, but what Jesus Christ did for us.

Christians seek doing good and avoid evil out of love, faith and respect for God, out of love and respect for others, out of a thankfulness for what Jesus did for us, out of a desire to be more like Jesus.  And even this love, faith, respect, thankfulness, and desire to be more like Jesus, even the power and desire to do good and avoid evil does not come from ourselves.  It comes from God and we have nothing to boast about.  Christianity teaches this:
 
Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 5:8
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Habakkuk 2:4
but the righteous will live by his faith

Romans 1:17
"The righteous will live by faith."

Galatians 3:11
"The righteous will live by faith."

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 1:13
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

Acts 1:8
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
 
Romans 8:9
"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[OzmO]

And the cool part about it is...............  no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as  your savior!

So  sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!

[ToxicAvenger]

And the cool part about it is...............  no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as  your savior!

So  sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!

not in islam though...some sins are never forgiven..and your muslim ass goes to hell..

dunno about how judaism works...

[loco]

And the cool part about it is...............  no matter how many sins you commit you are still going ot heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as  your savior!

Correct

So  sin to your hearts desire young grasshopper!

Who told you this?  Christianity does not teach that accepting Jesus Christ gives you license to sin to your heart's desires.  We follow Jesus and try to be like him.  Jesus was a perfect example of doing good out of love for God and out of love for others.  Jesus never told us to sin to our heart's desires. 

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

1 Peter 2:15-16
“For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.”

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law

1 John 2:3-4
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One

Romans 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!

Romans 6:12-14
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 6: 20-23
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

[Hedgehog]

Who told you this?  Christianity does not teach this.  We follow Jesus and try to be like him.  Jesus was a perfect example of doing good out of love for God and out of love for others.  Jesus never told us to sin our hearts desire.

You will go to heaven regardless, as long as you admits God and Jesus as his son.

God wants us to follow Jesus, but Jesus died for our sins, and we are forgiven.

An extreme example: If Hitler accepted God and Jesus before he died, he went straight to heaven. That's the way Christianity works.

The same goes for Gandhi: He wasn't Christian, so despite living a life that many would consider true to the Christian Ways, he is bound to burn in hell forever.

YIP
Zack

[loco]

You will go to heaven regardless, as long as you admits God and Jesus as his son.

God wants us to follow Jesus, but Jesus died for our sins, and we are forgiven.

An extreme example: If Hitler accepted God and Jesus before he died, he went straight to heaven. That's the way Christianity works.

The same goes for Gandhi: He wasn't Christian, so despite living a life that many would consider true to the Christian Ways, he is bound to burn in hell forever.

YIP
Zack

Agreed,
"no matter how many sins you commit you are still going to heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as  your savior!"...however, as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be made a new person, a person who will NOT want to sin, a person who will suddenly care for others like never before and desire doing good things for others.  A Christian has no fear of death, hell or God's wrath.  Yet, a Christian will try to avoid evil and will try to do as much good as possible, not out of fear, but out of holiness which comes only from God, again as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.

[Necrosis]

to joker, you miss the point that we are wired for morality that is our brains have a internal sense of morality. read some neuroethics for more info, your definition is of a broader sense, we are  inherently moral, our brains are made to be moral. now this doesnt mean god did it, it has evolutionary adaptations, however they are tautological in nature.

i didnt pick any particular link for you to view but there is a ton of info on the site. people miss the point that to be moral requires a moral brain, or to be wired to be moral, society did not create morality, in that the first person would have to be self moral inherent, see my point. morality is a natural human function, an inherent function not a make beleif societal constraint.

http://neuroethics.upenn.edu/

[ATHEIST]

ummmm..... Toxy...... Christianity does not teach that being good earns you heaven for a reward.

In fact it teaches that none are righteous...no, not one.

It teaches that the only thing that can get you into heaven is what Jesus Christ did for you.

That is clearly written in Ephesians 2:8,9:

"FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST."




And just out of curiosity, have you ever done anything bad?  Assuming that you will admit that yes, you have done something bad (just like the rest of us), does that mean you are no longer "good?"  What percentage of bad vs good acts and thoughts makes a person "bad" or "good?" 

 so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims. while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.

[Necrosis]

i think you have a point, the bible huggers can have at it, your reason is the reason i dont prescribe to a religion, if god is all loving, all knowing he doesnt care if you accept him, why would he.

question for religious people, why did god create us, what compelled him to create us?

joker, society does dictate what is wrong or right in a hard wired sense, laws etc, but we have a internal presupposition to morality that is inherent or soft wired per se. morality is part of the human condition not a dictated by society, by constrained by it into what is acceptable. basically we are wired to be moral, plato was right about society but in so far as the question asked in which i never asked what dictates morality but why are we moral to begin with, why do we feel there is a right and wrong in the end there are merely choices with labels, because of us.

[a_joker10]

Usmokepole,
A sense of right and wrong is important for the survival of any intelligent species.

As creatures humans are weak and would not survive without a collective thought. It is collective thought that makes us strong.

Normative behaviour is moderated through society and it is in this sense that I argue what morality is.

[Necrosis]

so you are agreeing that morality is inherant yet you evoke an external force to moderate it. im simply arguing that morality is a common human trait like empathy and is not created by society but in spite of. morality is a human condition, we have come pre-programmed to be moral, but society dictates what is right according to the majority,it still doesnt determine what right and wrong essentially is, that is inherent.

i dont understand your position you said morality is because of society yet you say it is important for survival thus a genetic predisposition essentially. collective thought has nothing to do with survival, intelligence does, individuals are intelligent, groups of people not so. groups cause groupthink, collectives cause subordination, deinvidualization and waivering of morals with aminity. intelligence is important but not collective thought, i dont even know what you mean by "collective thought" do you mean ideas, since thought is a personally entity, opinions or ideas can be shared but are substrates of individual thoughts. similar thoughts can be shared perhaps, but why does collective thoughts register any more importance then individual thoughts, that is why good is it for two people to think of the wheel when one would suffice.

clarify what your stance is im a little confused by your position, and what you mean by collective thought, and how does collective thought help a species. evolution occurs on the species level not idividual. single celled organsims know right and wrong according to our definitions, we just call it morality and justice and police it.

[a_joker10]

so you are agreeing that morality is inherant yet you evoke an external force to moderate it. im simply arguing that morality is a common human trait like empathy and is not created by society but in spite of. morality is a human condition, we have come pre-programmed to be moral, but society dictates what is right according to the majority,it still doesnt determine what right and wrong essentially is, that is inherent.

i dont understand your position you said morality is because of society yet you say it is important for survival thus a genetic predisposition essentially. collective thought has nothing to do with survival, intelligence does, individuals are intelligent, groups of people not so. groups cause groupthink, collectives cause subordination, deinvidualization and waivering of morals with aminity. intelligence is important but not collective thought, i dont even know what you mean by "collective thought" do you mean ideas, since thought is a personally entity, opinions or ideas can be shared but are substrates of individual thoughts. similar thoughts can be shared perhaps, but why does collective thoughts register any more importance then individual thoughts, that is why good is it for two people to think of the wheel when one would suffice.

clarify what your stance is im a little confused by your position, and what you mean by collective thought, and how does collective thought help a species. evolution occurs on the species level not idividual. single celled organsims know right and wrong according to our definitions, we just call it morality and justice and police it.

Collective thought has been seen in many species including Bees and other collective organisms.
These organisms wouldn't exist without a collective mindset.

Humans have a collective mindset. This is based on the fact that every person in the collective assumes a role and works for the common good of society. This is how tribes work. People hunt others cook, and some gather. All work for the collective good of the group.

With the advent of farming and herding we have developed more free time to spend on human thought. However collectivisn is still a part of human nature.

Right and Wrong is subjective and is moderated by society. Slavery, Canibalism, Mass suicides, human sacrifice and tribal killings have been a part of various societies throughout history. These acts would have been considered moral at that time.

[Necrosis]

ok altruism in a sense. yes there is no basis for morality i agree, but it is instilled in us ala neuroethics, do you see my point. we arent hardwired to say eat babies bad, have sex good but are programmed to decipher right and wrong.

[OzmO]

Agreed,
"no matter how many sins you commit you are still going to heaven if you accepted Jesus Christ as  your savior!"...however, as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be made a new person, a person who will NOT want to sin, a person who will suddenly care for others like never before and desire doing good things for others.  A Christian has no fear of death, hell or God's wrath.  Yet, a Christian will try to avoid evil and will try to do as much good as possible, not out of fear, but out of holiness which comes only from God, again as a result of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.

really?  you'll be made a new person?  Like this church leader who bought meth and reportedly had gay sex with a man?  That's GOD's power?  Or run of the mill weekday sinner - weekend church goer?


I have no fear of death save my family's greif.  And that has nothing to do with accepting Jesus as my savior.  Further more the "good deeds"  i do are not attached to trying to make it to heaven.  I am choosing to live by God's will.  (not the gibberish you call the BIBle but much of what you and i find in it that is GOD, just not every word)

Where is GOD as my very good friend, PASTOR, who had spent the last 15 living a a near perfect life, now finds himself getting divorced, and whoring around drinking and getting drunk all the time?  Was GOD ever truely in his heart?   I question that, becuase of his anger with GOD, he has thrown away all the principles he has been preaching all those years?  If that was the only holding him back then he was never that person to begin with.


Accepting Jesus Christ seems more like a get out of Jail free card that indirectly encourages you not to be accountable for your choices and actions.   It makes a weak christain IMO.

Christians need to start acting more like christians.

[Necrosis]

well said, i agree.people need to see that IF there is a god, he created us with all the capabilities we have, that is choice, and in that choice creates good or evil. god did not create good or bad he created free will and seperation.either god cares what we do or he doesnt, but an all loving god wouldnt punish me in my estimation, nor if he cared would he allow such a crap out, it is illogical of him to allow us the get out of jail free card, we learned nothing in the end and god shouldnt be illogical.

heres a crazy concept, in NDE'S everyone says we are one, we are all the same. quantum physics, ie quantum entanglement says the same thing, there is only one thing, we are all of one, physicists have actually used this argument to support monism. anywho i contend(or stole better yet) that we are all one in a spiritual sense and the reason for life is to know seperation, that is become unique so in this one we still are US or I. without this experience individuals would not occur.

but one question i always ask myself is why did god create us, why did he create anyway. why would he create us, cant answer it and i dont know of any philosophical approaches that suffice.

[ToxicAvenger]

so basically someone could live his entire life killing, robbing, raping and minutes before he dies he can accept God into his heart and he will be sitting in heaven next to some of his victims. while some poor mother in Africa who was never introduced to western christianity who spent her entire life working her fingers to the bone from sun up to sun down all while raising two kids who are always near death will go to hell. god is good.

no no no..works like that ONLY in christanity...in islam the poor mother goes to heaven..and the rapist goes to hell..

hense i say all the time...if i DID believe in god..i'd choose islam..more so because if ya actually read some of the koran its prety scientific....most folks wont read the actual book and instead choose to listen to the likes to nordic...cause its fun to it hate..it is..it really is...i've done it before..   ..back in the day i used to go around making christians fill like crap by bringing up them " let a snake bite me" christians... ....i ws less tolerant then...

"calling the moon a satellite...telling people to eat a high protein meal in the morning (higher l-tryosine levels =  more alertness) and high carb meals at nite( higher slin levels = easier sleep)

[ATHEIST]

no no no..works like that ONLY in christanity...in islam the poor mother goes to heaven..and the rapist goes to hell..

thats why im not a christian. growing up in the U.S all you are exposed to is western christianity. i think people need to see the forest from the trees and look at christianity objectively.