JOHN GRIMEK

[Dingleberry]

Who gives a shit about what you have?

LOL

[Heywood]

anabolic steroids were first mentioned in Strength and Health magazine in 1938.   Grimek worked for Hoffman and Strength and Health.   Grimek's physique in 1939 and 1940 was like no one elses.   It is certainly possible that the first Mr America was also the first to do it with steroids.

If you want to read more about Grimek, get the book Muscletown USA: Bob Hoffman and the Manly Culture of York Barbell

Tim, yes, and John Fair also wrote a treatise on the history of anabolic steroids.  He documents the who, what, where, why and WHEN, that Grimek, and the others at York had the opportunity to experiment with the first pharmateutical use of the drug.  The only other use documented usage was anecdotal data supplied from Nazi records and the Russian W/L team in the mid-1950's, and by Dr. Ziegler himself on patients.  Ziegler learned from the Russians.  Who do we have before him tied to drug use before his documented experiments?  Both Fair and Starr are in agreement on this history in separate papers (articles).

The concept that some German scientist isolated an element in a laboratory, and the next moment he was thinking of helping out his newphew win the Jr. Mr. Germany contest is very imaginative.  Bodybuilding wasn't very important then, now or 25 years ago.

Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone in the late 1800's, but it was over 100 years later before we started walking around with cell-phones.  Technology doesn't happen overnight, medical or otherwise.

[timfogarty]

Both Fair and Starr are in agreement on this history in separate papers (articles).

what's your point?   What did Fair and Starr agree upon?

Technology doesn't happen overnight, medical or otherwise.

trends in the general population is different that what is being done by elite eindividuals.  Dianabol became widely available in the late 1950s.   The average guy at the gym would not have had access to testosterone esters or syringes.   But world class athletes would have.

[jr]

I think 1) those poundages are greatly exaggerated or 2) those were dummy weights (ie. fake weights) there's no f**king way a guy in those times (let alone now) could lift up 300lbs. over his head with one arm...

I wonder what the weight of this dumbbell is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivikmAzBNJ4

Looks at least 250lbs.

[jong_1]

= old Grimek video, looks like he's just messing around.

[Heywood]

what's your point?   What did Fair and Starr agree upon?

trends in the general population is different that what is being done by elite eindividuals.  Dianabol became widely available in the late 1950s.   The average guy at the gym would not have had access to testosterone esters or syringes.   But world class athletes would have.

I'm referring to Fair's account and Starr's account regarding the timeframe for the development of the first steroid and how it occurred historically.  That is, Ziegler's dealings with CIBA, York, etc.  Both accounts are the same, no discrepancies on the development of the drug or the experiments.  (It didn't simply pop out of someone's gymbag one day.)  There were experiments undertaken by a doctor with test subjects.  Ziegler is quoted by Fair at one point as stating "that these tiny pink pills could actually increase strength" was not imaginable at the time.  I'd have to get the actual quote if you'd like.  But that was the mindset.

Dianabol became available by prescription in 1961, I believe, not before that point in time.

That some of us believe that a secret (i.e. steroid use, 20 years before its historical development) of that magnitude could have been kept a secret all this time, and still today, is outside my own perception of human behavior.

[timfogarty]

That some of us believe that a secret (i.e. steroid use, 20 years before its historical development) of that magnitude could have been kept a secret all this time, and still today, is outside my own perception of human behavior.

as I've pointed out before, testosterone propinate is first mentioned in Strength and Health in 1938.  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid, under History, but that's not exactly proof, as I wrote that line in the wikipedia entry)

and Dianabol was released by CIBA in 1956

[bmacsys]

Have you ANY idea when steroids was invented? Before WW2, in 1930- something...and day after that first atheletes were there to test that stuff.

Steroids didn't come into vogue in bodybuilding in the USA till the early 60's. I seriously doubt anything was widely available in the 30's or 40's or even after WWII when pharmaceuticals were very scarce.

[Heywood]

as I've pointed out before, testosterone propinate is first mentioned in Strength and Health in 1938.  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid, under History, but that's not exactly proof, as I wrote that line in the wikipedia entry)

and Dianabol was released by CIBA in 1956

Tim, the fact that S&H mentioned a substance is clearly not enough evidence to prove a point more than something was picked up from a news report.  The mags, especially IM, always tried to alert readers of new supplements.  It's no different that saying, for example, that Yohimbe Bark was mentioned in a sentence or paragraph in the Readers' Roundup section of a 1945 Iron Man, if that were the case.  To me, it's not significant.

Secondly, I'm not tying any importance whatsoever to anything written in Wikipedia.  Why bother with historians (PhD's or otherwise) when I can write my own version of history and post it?  I'm not trying to belittle your efforts, or others' efforts, but I've been down this path before.  My belief is that Dianabol was not available for physicians to write scripts till 1961 at the earliest.

Again, I think if you're going against Fair's & Starr's accounts regarding Ziegler's history with CIBA & York, you'll need to come up with some type of valid evidence.

And to believe some alternative theory is to believe that a group of individuals have all kept this a secret, and all have done so to perfection, and all have done so for over 50 years.

[bmacsys]

I suppose people will chime in Sandow was a juicer too?

[timfogarty]

Tim, the fact that S&H mentioned a substance is clearly not enough evidence to prove a point more than something was picked up from a news report. 

it's proof that it existed.

it was in a Letter to the Editor written by a medical doctor offering it as a treatment to cure homosexuality!  (and anyone who's been to South Beach knows how much that works)

It's proof that testosterone esters were known and available in the US in the late 1930s.  It wasn't common knowledge, but it was out there.  And if the knowledge was out there, why is it so hard to believe that someone would take advantage of that knowldege?

[stuntmovie]

I sat with Mr Grimick is a national contest once. This was in those days when bodybuilding was preceeded by many long hours of olympic lifting.

I do recall that he was pissed off most of the time by anything and everything that went on that day. Especially when he was introduced and asked to come to the mic and say a few words.

When responding to anyone except Bob Hoffman, he reminded me of a grizzley old Drill Instructor who had major cause to be pissed off at Joe Shithead who was lower than whale turd and asking for headspace because he couldn't find any in the piece he had.

Well, maybe ya had to be there, but I do recall him just being miserable in that second row seat at the old Embassy Auditorium in downtown Los Angeles at one of the bigger lifting/bodybuilding events held back then.

He could have been pissed cause his son had just joined the Marines, but .....

[timfogarty]

in that second row seat at the old Embassy Auditorium in downtown Los Angeles at one of the bigger lifting/bodybuilding events held back then.

that would have been the AAU National Weightlifting Championships and Mr America contest, June 11-12, 1965. 

(from the Musclememory wiki)

[Heywood]

it's proof that it existed.

it was in a Letter to the Editor written by a medical doctor offering it as a treatment to cure homosexuality!  (and anyone who's been to South Beach knows how much that works)

It's proof that testosterone esters were known and available in the US in the late 1930s.  It wasn't common knowledge, but it was out there.  And if the knowledge was out there, why is it so hard to believe that someone would take advantage of that knowldege?

How is a single letter written to the editor of S&H the "missing link?"  You're saying that the substance was not believed to influence size & strength, but rather influence one's sexual behavior.  

I don't know if what existed in the late 1930's:
(1) did, in fact, increase size & strength,
(2) was KNOWN to increase size & strength,
(3) was investigated, to find out if it increased size & strength,
(4) and was available in enough quantity to be taken for that use.

And why did Ziegler need to investigate the Russian O/L team, and experiment on the York lifters if what he was looking for was right under his nose 15 years before he began his own investigation?

According to John Fair, Ziegler, Hoffman, Riecke, March, and Garcy didn't know what these pills did.  They kept records, and found out that it wasn't the new training principles (isometrics), but rather the tiny pills that caused the improvements.  Some might claim that York knew what the pills did, all in a plot to sell more $70 power racks.  

Fair writes: "The lifting gains were obvious: that they came from steroids was not.  That tiny pink pills could make you strong was still incomprehensible in the early sixties."  [Page 7, Isometrics or Steroids? Exploring New Frontiers of Strenth in the Early 1960s, Journal of Sport History, Vol. 20 No. 1, Spring 1993]

If it was known in 1939, why was it not known in 1960?

[stuntmovie]

I don't have any personal knowledge about roid usage in the 30's and 40's but it is my understanding that steroids were widely depended upon for burn patients who suffered serious injuries while fighting in the Pacific during WWII. I've also been advised by a good number of military medical professionals that Tripler Army Hospital had great success useing steroids for burn recovery but for some unknown reason on my part it took many years for the AMA to claim that they were effective.  (Sorry for my inept medical terminology here!)

And I am thoroughly convinced that bodybuilders were not the first athletes to use them to great advantage.

Many years later into the 70's, most of the pros were convinced that roids were 10% of the effort in increasing muscle size ...... but you have to remember that dosages were so much lower then.

I have no idea what percentage of the effort the pros would attribute to them today.

TIM, I believe you are correct on that date ..... I think Jerry Daniels won it that night b eating Bob Gadja and Sergio. Am I close? And who was that superheavy, young guy (back then) who did some spectacular lifting that nite?

[stuntmovie]

Tim,

 I can't respond to most of your latest post but I can tell you for a fact that the following statement was incorrect........
"That tiny pink pills could make you strong was still incomprehensible in the early sixties." 

I was just a young kid in 1961 (or 62?) heading down to Camp Pendleton and made a stop at a seaside pharmacy to get some of those little pink pills to increase my lifting strength.

I wasn't entirely in the loop back then but I knew that those little pink pills were effective.

In fact the only ones who insisted that they were not effective was the AMA.

Anyone involved in any athletic endeavor requiring strength and muscle had some idea that those little pills were helpful, but for some reason many doctors and publications were doing their best to prove otherwise.

It took the athletes themselves to prove otherwise for many in the medical profession. One prominent doctor even apologized for his unbelieving attitude and hostility to me in a medical publication relating to the subject.

I'd like to read anything available and factual about athletic use of roids in the 30's and the 40's and the 50's. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't really come to athletes' attention until the early 60's regardless of many unsupported claims made on here.

[Vince B]

I want to join in this discussion. The main contest associated with weight lifting was the Mr America contest that followed the lifting. They also had a requirement that contestants demonstrate athletic ability and some of them did weight lifting. In England they had the NABBA Mr Universe which was a pure bodybuilding contest.

I was in York in 1965 and saw Bill March do a standing press with 375 pounds. Very impressive. Grimek always talked against the use of steroids. He laughed at the IFBB because he said Larry Scott's name was engraved on the Mr Olympia trophy. He was grumpy but always candid and honest. It could have been that the winner was known and then they had Larry's name engraved before the finals.

What I recollect from reading the magazines over the years is that Ziegler helped introduce a steroid to burn victims during WWII and that patients could help gain weight after surgery, etc. He supervised the use of Dianabol to some of the weight lifters at York but became disenchanted when some guys used way more that he recommended.

We can wonder who used Dianabol and when that started. I started bodybuidling in Jan 1959 and by time I went to university in 1960 I had heard about steroids. No one admitted using them and there was a denial culture existing. Only those in the drug subculture knew about them and where to get them. Few bodybuilders would approach doctors to get prescriptions because there was a stigma about using them. In those days it was considered cheating and contemptible. Also, it was believed to be a dangerous thing to do because you could get cancer, etc. Clearly, little information was available and the literature from research did not support the idea that they even worked. So one had to be reckless to use those drugs. The weightlifters and some Mr Universes did use them but no one really knew who did and who didn't. Those of us who couldn't win the top titles assumed the winners had better genetics. By 1970 it was obvious you couldn't compete against the top guys without taking drugs. Sergio Oliva and Arnold appeared on the scene in the late 60s and dominated the sport for some time.

Jerry Daniels won a Mr America in 1965 and didn't seem impressive, but Bob Gadja beat Oliva in 1966 in that contest and after that Sergio abandoned the AAU and enterred Joe Weider's contests. 

It remains a conjecture that some of the top guys in the 1940s used gear. Not one person from that era has ever confessed to using steroids. I leave it open as a possibility that someone might have been told of the wonder drug and might have used testosterone or something like it long before such use became known among athletes. Do we presume the champions to be innocent until proven guilty? That seems fair but others will insist that is naive. What is the test of the truth of any early drug use? Well, we need more than hearsay or speculation. Until some real evidence appears we will have to remain ignorant about what bodybuilders did in the old days.

If we go back to the late 1940s there were several champions who stood out. Eiferman developed huge pecs and won Mr America in 1948. Reeves developed a magnificent physique without apparently training very hard. Clancy Ross also was called the King of bodybuilders and had huge pecs as well. Then Leroy Colbert had an absolutely huge chest and arms before 1960. I am not accusing any of those guys of drug use. However, they sure stood out for some features that were not seen by most bodybuilders for decades.

Ironically, Grimek beat Reeves, Ross and Eiferman in the Mr USA in 1949 and was undefeated in bodybuilding contests. From looking at his physique it doesn't show much evidence of drug use. So who knows what the heck those guys did or didn't do. All I know is that I and plenty of other guys trained a lot and didn't get anywhere near as big as the guys who hung around Muscle Beach in those days. No one from those days showed any drug side effects such as gynecomastia.

[timfogarty]

You're saying that the substance was not believed to influence size & strength, but rather influence one's sexual behavior. 

No, I'm saying the person who wrote the letter was using it in his practice in the belief that it would turn you into a man.

I don't know if what existed in the late 1930's:
(1) did, in fact, increase size & strength,

it was testosterone propinate, a testosterone ester still used today.

(2) was KNOWN to increase size & strength,
(3) was investigated, to find out if it increased size & strength,
(4) and was available in enough quantity to be taken for that use.

it was available.  so certainly someone would try it out. 

think about the lengths that world class athletes today go to get that edge.  it was no different back then.

If it was known in 1939, why was it not known in 1960?

the knowledge was never lost.   but very few people would have had access to it because it was injectible.   Didn't have disposable syringes and needles back then.   Dianabol changed everything because it was in pill form and could be distributed to the masses.


Eiferman won Mr America in 48, Delinger won it in 49.  There are two articles in Strength and Health, one about Eiferman and a year later a similar one about Delinger, describing how they went out to Yarick's Gym in Oakland California for the summer and returned back to York 30-40 pounds heavier.     Now I can see an 18 year old learning how to train and eat right for the first time and gaining 30 pounds in 3 months.  But Eiferman and Delinger were both already world class athletes.   World class athletes don't suddenly gain 30 pounds by changing their diet or training methods.

it's circumstantial, but it's pretty compelling

btw, Yarick's was also Reeve's home gym.

[Richard2004]

anabolic steroids were first mentioned in Strength and Health magazine in 1938.   Grimek worked for Hoffman and Strength and Health.   Grimek's physique in 1939 and 1940 was like no one elses.   It is certainly possible that the first Mr America was also the first to do it with steroids.

If you want to read more about Grimek, get the book Muscletown USA: Bob Hoffman and the Manly Culture of York Barbell

But, according to Fair's monumental book Muscletown USA , Grimek only "dabbled" with the steroids in conjunction with the pioneer of steroid administration to U.S. athletes, Dr. John Zielger.  Dr. Ziegler administered steroids to Olympic weightlifters and bodybuilders...e.g. Bill March, Louis Riecke, Grimek and Jim Park.  March and Riecke used the AAS extensively (1960's), however, Grimek and Park's usage ('40's-'50's) was much more limited.

At the time John Grimek was able to perform a "loose" Olympic barbell press with approximately 350-360 lbs.(of course, that was after cleaning the 350-360 lb. bar to his shoulders and not just taking the bar from the squat rack!), the WORLD RECORD in the stricter version of the Olympic Press (i.e. with less much back bend and/or body heave) was around 310-330 lbs!  Grimek's bodyweight was around 200-210 at the time!!

John Davis was the world heavyweight Olympic weightlifting champion of Grimek's era.  Davis could not match Grimek's loose pressing poundages, but could outlift Grimek on the "quicklifts" (snatch and clean and jerk).  In the late 30's and early 40's, Grimek had to decide whether he wanted to pursue bodybuilding or Olympic weightlifting.

At the time ('38-'41), Grimek was very competitive (particularly in the Olympic/military press) with the top U.S. Olympic weightlifters of his era...John Davis, Steve Stanko and Louis Abele.  And, then along came World War II!

[brianX]

anabolic steroids were first mentioned in Strength and Health magazine in 1938.   Grimek worked for Hoffman and Strength and Health.   Grimek's physique in 1939 and 1940 was like no one elses.   It is certainly possible that the first Mr America was also the first to do it with steroids.

If you want to read more about Grimek, get the book Muscletown USA: Bob Hoffman and the Manly Culture of York Barbell

You act like you've made some great discovery. It is a historical fact that testosterone was discovered in 1935 by Dr. Leopold Ruzicka. The September 23, 1935 issue of Time Magazine ran a short article about his breakthroughs in isolating male hormones.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,749085,00.html

This doesn't change the fact that male hormones were never used by bodybuilders until the late 1950's, and were not widely available until around 1964. Ask anyone who was involved in bodybuilding/powerlifting during that time period. Your assertion that guys like Grimek, Park, and Eiferman used steroids during the 40's and early 50's is pure fantasy.

[Richard2004]

todays bodybuilders are not as hardcore, they dont go half naked out in the snow posing

Grimek had this great photo taken as sort of as a "humorous stunt" and the photo was subsequently used on the cover of a winter issue of Strength and Health magazine in the mid-late 50's, as I recall.

No, today's bodybuilders are too busy shooting up on BB and rec. drugs, dealing illegal drugs, and falling over dead in their 30's and 40's (at half of "hardcore" Grimek's lifespan) to "go out and pose half-naked in the snow"!!

[Vince B]

Bill March bet me $ that John Grimek's calves still measured at least 17 1/2 inches when I visited York in 1965. I figured if he was willing to bet me that it must be true so I declined. In those days anything over 17 inches was remarkable on a guy of 5-8.

[stuntmovie]

Vince, good to see you posting on here. We need more intelligence on this board so your input is appreciated. Most of these GetBiggers are relatively new to the "sport", so they probably don't recognize your name, but a few of us old timers certainly do.

Thanks, Vince

[The Squadfather]

Vince, good to see you posting on here. We need more intelligence on this board so your input is appreciated. Most of these GetBiggers are relatively new to the "sport", so they probably don't recognize your name, but a few of us old timers certainly do.

Thanks, Vince

how could we not know who Vince is, he was Mr. Canada 1970.

[Figo]

First the stuff was only around in the late 50's(Ziegler)

Then, its rumoured Reeves may have dabbled even before.

Now Grimek is a supposed user/experimenter.

One of these days Eugene Sandow is gonna be documented as "experimenting".

The puritans are going ballistic, but who give a shit, it doesnt take away from their achievements.

I dont care if they took drugs, performed fellatio on each other, abused small furry animals, or walked around the house in tutus and high-heels.

These guys achieved a lot, and were forerunners in their field, and as such paid their dues, and should get appreciation and admiration. But, they're not Gods, just normal guys that excelled at what they did.