Author Topic: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!  (Read 45730 times)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2006, 01:49:09 PM »
lol that must equate to 150 x 15 reps on the barbell!

pumpster issued me a $100 challenge that I couldn't do 15 full consecutive reps with 410 pounds power rods on the Boex Flex lol needless to say when I was done laughing.

alexxx

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2006, 01:51:07 PM »
pumpster issued me a $100 challenge that I couldn't do 15 full consecutive reps with 410 pounds power rods on the Boex Flex lol needless to say when I was done laughing.

LOL oh man this is hilarious!
just push some weight!

brianX

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2006, 01:51:24 PM »
hahhahaha well what it comes down to is that HIT is definetely not for everyone. It's just an extremely stressful way to train and some people could really suffer from serious pre-workout anxiety.

I consider myself a masochist in the gym. I go all out, which most likely has to do with my personality. I just have to give all of my effort or none at all, especially when it comes to something I have such a passion for like bodybuilding. I have clear goals and am determined to reach them.

Yeah, doing one set of lat pulldowns is incredibly stressful and hard. What a pansy. ::)
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figgs

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2006, 02:37:30 PM »
Yeah, doing one set of lat pulldowns is incredibly stressful and hard. What a pansy. ::)

Thanks for sharing. How much HIT experience do you have?
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2006, 03:01:48 PM »
I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.
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figgs

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2006, 03:14:42 PM »
I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.

I already have.
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Dorian01

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2006, 03:19:05 PM »
mentzer didn't train using the methods he later preached, neither did dorian. And even if they did, they're genetic elite so it wouldn't matter at all. Who cares.

DVSGOD

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2006, 03:55:35 PM »
Mentzer on many occassions did not practice what he preached.
As an example of a chest work out that was wittnessed ,he did 4 -5 differant exercises 3-4 sets each ,15-20 sets total.
When asked had he given up on his HIT training methods and started following Arnolds advice he said "No this is HIT but only the last set counts ,so ive only done 4-5 sets"  ahh yeah right mikie  ::)

On that You tube clip the years of Meth/Speed abuse can clearly be seen with his uncoherent talking , slurring and general spaced out look.I think this abuse had him in a constant state of phsycosis,as he is clearly nuts.

Dorian01

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2006, 04:02:14 PM »
619rules once mentioned a fucked up Mentzer approaching him and his friends and asking "How do you guys get your arms so big?" Lol.

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2006, 04:19:30 PM »
You can't compare juicing techinque and natural techniques. When it comes to training.

nodeal

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2006, 01:11:00 AM »
HIT training is VERY EFFECTIVE. it utilizes the principle of applying intensity to each and every set for maximum muscle growth. working out is(or should be) based around intensity and pushing yourself to the limits. i dont understand how other bodybuilders see this any other way. even while not on a hit program i still apply a high amount of intensity to my sets(low volume) usually with forced reps. the primitive instinct of a bodybuilder should be to do a set until absolutely failure is reached. wtf is wrong with you people...

Bodies

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2006, 01:47:47 AM »
Mentzer on many occassions did not practice what he preached.
As an example of a chest work out that was wittnessed ,he did 4 -5 differant exercises 3-4 sets each ,15-20 sets total.
When asked had he given up on his HIT training methods and started following Arnolds advice he said "No this is HIT but only the last set counts ,so ive only done 4-5 sets"  ahh yeah right mikie  ::)

On that You tube clip the years of Meth/Speed abuse can clearly be seen with his uncoherent talking , slurring and general spaced out look.I think this abuse had him in a constant state of phsycosis,as he is clearly nuts.

there are a lot of anectdotal reports like this that indicate that what Mentzer acually practiced was pyramiding up to one heavy intense set which is what most of us do anyway

VIENIO

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2006, 12:53:37 PM »
A lot of us are already doing a 'kind' of HIT, we usually do 2-3 'warm up' sets building up to the heaviest weight that we are going to do on the last set.

bmacsys

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2006, 04:33:28 PM »
Maybe that is why Franco was so small compared to Arnold?

Besides I really doubt Arnold couldn't keep up... ::)

Alexxx, you gotta bone up on your training history. Arnold couldn't hack the training that Arthur Jones threw at him so he packed his shit and left Deland Florida in a huff. Franco did well. After a bit Sergio adapted and thrived and should have won the 1972 Olympia. He was at his best and he owned Arnold that day.
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DVSGOD

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2006, 01:21:03 AM »
After a bit Sergio adapted and thrived and should have won the 1972 Olympia. He was at his best and he owned Arnold that day.
Who won the 72 Olympia  :D

davie

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2006, 03:58:59 AM »
Although relatively nwe to HIt style training theories and practices, i am finding it very challenging adn worthwhile.
I differ from figgs in that my training is based arouhd compound moves done to failure ratehr than pre-exhaust. (except for shoulders and quads).

This doesnt mean i disagree with him, im just experimenting and have taken the advice of 'myesone.'

I dont use static holds or many forced reps. My trainnig is different in that i go to failure.... wen this occurs during a rep my partner helps me complete that rep and mayb another, i then rest for 10-15 seconds or about 10 deep breathes (rest/pause), then try and go again, probably resulting in me only getting like 1-4 more reps, on failure my partner halps me get another 1-2 more reps, then i stop. I then drop the weight about 35% and go again, fail then rest/pause then go again. Once i fail again the set is over, and after about 20 seconds i begin my second exercise for that body part.

(all body parts have 2 exercise for them except quads and back which have 3). On the heavy set b4 and afetr the rest/pause i go to absolute positiv failure, i do the same on the drop set.

I dont feel what i do is better or worse than figgs or nodeal, they train very hard, and with impressive will power.
B/c i am not using static failure (tho i do use sum static holds) and negative failure, that is why i think i am able (tho it is very tuff) to do rest/pause and drop set.

Iv done 15 sest a body part, 12, 8 and now 2 extended sets.

It comes down to different strokes for differnt folks.

davie
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2006, 04:23:02 AM »
I have enough experience to know that most HIT trainees couldn't bench 225 or squat 315 if their life depended on it.

Because most of them aren't doing it properly.

natural al

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2006, 04:52:02 AM »
I find it funny when someone says HIT training is easy.  Either they've never attempted it before or they just don't know how to do it.  Go read up on the CAsey Viator colorado experiment training articles that are out there.  Go get a couple of Metzers earlier books or even ellington dardens latest HIT book.  the workouts if done the right way are very, very hard.  Do they produce results?  Of course they do in most cases.  It comes more down to the things you do outside of the gym that dictate what type of results you're gonna have, eating, resting etc.  all play a much bigger role.  Volume training works for some people, depends how the program is set up and how heavy and intense they are going to go releative to thier recovery ability.

I've done every type of training in the world you can think of.  Back in the late 80's early 90's everybody was about "feeling" the muscle.  Nobody trained super heavy-that I knew of-what most guys I knew did was follow more or less what Haney and Gaspari were preaching.  Medium wieghts, medium reps for 4-5 sets of each exercise, 4-5 movements per bodypart on a push-pull rotation.  I remember doing 4 sets of flat, 4 sets of inline, 4 sets of pec deck and 4 sets of dips for my chest.  I weighed about 165lbs, up from 140 a few months earlier-this was the weight I wrestled at throughout highschool.  This guy I knew came in and wanted to know why I trained so light, I told him what I was doing and he told me to come train with him.  The next day I came in and he had me going nuts moving weight that I never thought I could move.  the sets were down but still high by todays standards.  I ended up being about 185-190 a few months later-no roids, no supplements just heavy training.  I decided to start to get ready for the jr. michigan which my buddy was doing, I was just toying with the idea but 3 weeks before the show I had alot of guys telling me I was gonna win.  I got really, really sick 10 days out from an infection that was airborn-I worked with the public alot and the doctors thought someone must have had it and coughed on me without me knowing it.  I sepent about a week in the hospital and went from a pretty ripped 175 down to 132lbs by the time I could go out of the house.  I was on bedrest for about 4-6 months.  To get back up in weight once I started training I did the "dorian type" of training and got very, very strong.  I got back up to 190ish.

Since then I've been an on again off again trainer.  I went to school fulltime so I cut waaaay back on my training to concentrate on school.  In that time I've done a ton of different types of training just to experiment and see what works, I've done tons of reading on different types of training etc.  I love to research this type of stuff.  I've done HIT, max-ot, volume, double pre-exhaust, push-pull routines, powerlifting type of BB training..you name it.

it's my opinion that a program that is most effective for a natural guy is one that focuses on getting in the gym, going nuts for a short period of time with heavy ass weight and getting out so you can recover.  The natural guy must train as heavy as possible always trying to progress, there can be no backwards momentum in terms of training effectiveness.  You must learn to let yourself recover and you must learn what works best for you from a dietary standpoint-something I'm still trying to figure out but I have issues that I've had to work aroiund so my situation is a little different than joe average in terms of what I can eat and what I can't.  

Volume works for some guys but most natural guys will find that following a HIT type of training routine or at least looking at the protocol with an open mind can get them some great results.  

max-ot training is very well laid out, heavy ass weight, sort intense workouts and allowing the body to recover.  I used this for awhile and really enjoyed it.  I think I did some things wrong in terms of allowing myself to accimilate to the training and maybe my warm ups were not all they could have been..  I would like to try this again in the future if I get a chance.  

I'm an advocate of DC training bacause I feel it's a system that is set up almost perfectly for a natural guy.  If you take the time out to read up on it and follow it to a "t' you really can't fail.  You're weights are always progressing and once they stop you switch movements so you never go stale.  You cycle your training so you really can't overtrain on a consistant basis.  You limit your number of movements so again you can't overtrain...I could probably write a book on the pro's of this type of training.  I can't do the diet as it's laid out for the most part...even though the diet itself has never been posted on the net the basics are high protien etc.  I have digestive issues that I have to work around so I have to diet a little differently but the program is still damn effective.  I'm not saying I'm gonna win the natural mr. o using this type of training but for what I put into it and what I want ot acomplish at this point in my life this is a great routine.

I'd love to try Trevor Smith's BFT training one day and maybe re-address volume at a later time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that HIT is not better than volume and volume is not better than hit.  it all depends on what you can mentally and physically put into your training that will determine what works for you.  If you do volume for 6 months nd it ain't working, switch it up but read about what you are planning to do cause-for instance-most guys who fail at DC say something like "I tried DC and it didn't work for me"   Ok, well what did you do?  "well I followed the program but I added a couple of movements here and there and I added a training day...I didn't do any cardio and I didn't even read up on the diet...I kept my reps a litttle higher and didnt' bother following the blast and cruise techniques"  hmmmmmm....wonder why you failed.  Same with max-ot, I wouldn't say I failed using it but I didn't follow it to the letter and that's where the problem probably was.

anyway...that's it for now.
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2006, 05:06:52 AM »
HIT training is VERY EFFECTIVE. it utilizes the principle of applying intensity to each and every set for maximum muscle growth. working out is(or should be) based around intensity and pushing yourself to the limits. i dont understand how other bodybuilders see this any other way. even while not on a hit program i still apply a high amount of intensity to my sets(low volume) usually with forced reps. the primitive instinct of a bodybuilder should be to do a set until absolutely failure is reached. wtf is wrong with you people...
So you're saying "intensity" itself induces muscle growth?

Define intensity.

Now quantify intensity.

Let this be a starting point.
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natural al

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2006, 05:17:37 AM »
So you're saying "intensity" itself induces muscle growth?

Define intensity.

Now quantify intensity.

Let this be a starting point.

I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:

Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions.  If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs.   You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps.   The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again.  Was there intesity?  In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with.  Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout.  next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.
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davie

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2006, 05:29:30 AM »
I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:

Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions.  If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs.   You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps.   The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again.  Was there intesity?  In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with.  Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout.  next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.

My target wen doing elg extensions is 15 reps in one go before i will up weight next workout, though i want to get more than 15 reps, and i certainly dont stop wen i get there. Since starting a high intensity workout i have upped the weight each week over the last few weeks, Now i know there is going to be a week wer iv upped the weight and i cant get 15 reps and i fail and cannot get another rep  no matter how hard i try. I might fail at 12 reps. thats fine as long as i know i could not have tried harder, and i also know that next workout im gonna get at least one more rep until i reach 15 reps and can up the weight again.

(ON LEG EXCTENSIONS......after i fail i rest/pause then go again, then fail,rest/pause then go again, hopefully getting near 20 sumthing reps by the end of the extended set).

davie
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2006, 05:52:12 AM »
Who do you think was able to generate the greatest intensity and why? Any witnesses?

Personally I don't think Mentzer is anywhere close to Arnold training wise.
I say whatever works best for you. Personally, I always prefured multiple sets and volume.

PB

natural al

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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2006, 05:54:35 AM »
My target wen doing elg extensions is 15 reps in one go before i will up weight next workout, though i want to get more than 15 reps, and i certainly dont stop wen i get there. Since starting a high intensity workout i have upped the weight each week over the last few weeks, Now i know there is going to be a week wer iv upped the weight and i cant get 15 reps and i fail and cannot get another rep  no matter how hard i try. I might fail at 12 reps. thats fine as long as i know i could not have tried harder, and i also know that next workout im gonna get at least one more rep until i reach 15 reps and can up the weight again.

(ON LEG EXCTENSIONS......after i fail i rest/pause then go again, then fail,rest/pause then go again, hopefully getting near 20 sumthing reps by the end of the extended set).

davie

that's a good way to look at it.  If you set a target rep range and always try to hit it and/or move up in wieght you should progress nicely.  If you start with 50lbs-just a number off the top of my head and you get 15 reps but you believe that you hit positive failure on the 15th rep next time you should shoot for 15 reps with 55lbs.  now if you get 12 reps with 55lbs I would not get to worked up about it but if you don't hit 15 reps the second time then I'd start to think if I was working as hard as I can or perhaps I'm just not built for this movement and maybe think of using something else that allows me to progress how I want to.  

I started hack squatting a few weeks ago for the first time in years.  I started really, really light cause I didn't know how my lower back would take it.  The weight I started with was kinda pathetic but I shot for 20 reps, next time I upped the weight and got another 20 reps...now I'm still getting higher reps but my weight is getting respectable cause I've pushed myself everytime I do the movement....
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2006, 08:19:22 AM »
The stuff Menzter says on the video make sense but he sound like a punch drunk boxer.
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Re: ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2006, 08:25:06 AM »
The stuff Menzter says on the video make sense but he sound like a punch drunk boxer.

Irrelevant, as unimportant as gauging Schwarzenegger by recent pics.