ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!

[pumpster]

Lameass ND continuing to hijack the thread, with no life outside of an apparent obsession with white BBs and pumpster..


ND's Xmas special on Total Gyms & Gazelles kicks off this week, PM him for details..

[pumpster]

Olympic sprinters in all sports do more yards/meters than the average person can handle and they still have size.  They do high intensity for alot of volume, trust me.

Where you a sprinter? I was. Each sprint is analogous to a set. They're not doing high volumes of sprints at 100%.

As far as "still having size" you've completely misunderstood what is a widely used analogy to anyone who reads about training. They have more leg size than any other track athletes, not less, due to the higher-intensity sprints used, which is akin to high-intensity sets.

[pumpster]

Yes.  We trained high intensity sets at increasing levels up to 100%.  Training at 100% and doing less volume would be bad because the body needs to be aclimated to racing one event after the other.  Training higher volume at high intensity does wonders.

In other words, those extra sets are just for warmups, warmup that can be accomplished in various ways. It's just a pyramid, with fewer max. intensity sprints at the top that make all the difference. The warmups aren't doing much towards improvement.

Sprinters who do higher numbers of sprints gain the size from a relatively small number of 100% sprints. The rest of the sprints are either unnecessary or develop endurance.

[pumpster]

My original point was that the length of an athlete's workouts can also lend credit to intensity not about 100% sprints.

Don't know what that means but essentially the sprinter analogy i used is accurate. The size compared to longer distances comes from 100% effort over a moderate number of sprints AKA sets. Sprinting 100% all-out beyond moderate numbers of sprints say 10-12 max. only increases endurance.

[pumpster]

Actually the sprinting analogy to lifting is widely used and is accurate.

[haider]

I'm not gonna speak for him but if someone asked me to define intesity I'd say something like this:

Lets take a movement everyone knows how to do like leg extensions.  If you go into the gym on your first day of training and do...let's say 80lbs.   You rep out until you've reached positive failure-or at least what you consider positive failure since it takes awhile to actually learn to hit failure-you get about 15 reps.   The next time you go into the gym you try just as hard with the same weight but you only get 15 reps again.  Was there intesity?  In your mind sure but you didn't progress, gave your muscles nothing new to work with.  Now if you go in and you bust your balls don't give up and gete 18 reps you've done an "intense" workout.  next time you should strive for more weight...in order for there to be "intesity" you must constantly be moving forward in some aspect of your training.

No thats not the way intensity is defined for these HIT'ers. The concept of intensity that these guys adhere to really is a percieved intensity than the kind u describe- though ur definition is wrong (no offense), it still offers something that can be GAUGED, i.e. there is an element of progression; the idea that I will outperform myself from last workout, whether it is getting more reps or upping the weight.

So if you're feeling better than your previous workout and you outperform yourself from last time, intensity as u described is increased by virtue of doing more even if perceived intensity may not have been as high.

So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
 A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..

[brianX]

Just pick up a heavy weight and lift it. What is so fucking hard to understand?

[bmacsys]

Sureeeeeeeeeeeeee 

Arnold was not a better bodybuilder than the Myth. Arnold was white and charismatic while Sergio was black and not very articulate. That is why Arnold beat Sergio. Many on this board concur with that.

[pumpster]

So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
 A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..

Sounds complicated. Intensity is measurable so don't worry about it.

[pumpster]

That's a bold statement dude.

It's quite obvious actually. Getbig has it's fair share of unquestioning Arnold fanatics who buy into the Schwarzenegger aura unquestioningly, even though Arnold himself as well as Nubret have said the two were comparable. Anything beyond that is just personal preference.

Marketability was a big factor, which took into account personality & skin color. Big difference in who would have the edge in contests. The guy who could sell more product would have an advantage, in the same way that even a current Arnold cover sells mags.

[IceCold]

Pumpster is one of the most knowledgable posters here. He's a true bodybuilder and doesn't just come here to just f**k around like most of the guys here on G&O.

you do know that pumpster doesnt even go to a gym.

he uses a fucking bowflex in his parents basement.

[IceCold]

Good, now do 19 more sets and that is what an Arnold Schwarzenegger workout feels like.

arnold didnt go to failure on every set.

if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.

the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.

the less sets you can only do. 

[Dingleberry]

That bowflex pic is right up there with the 240 naked pose pic. Classic.

[alexxx]

arnold didnt go to failure on every set.

if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.

the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.

the less sets you can only do. 

That isn't accurate. You can go to failure with 100 sets if you wanted to. It all depends of the drive of the person and the resources/goals he has in mind.

[davie]

That isn't accurate. You can go to failure with 100 sets if you wanted to. It all depends of the drive of the person and the resources/goals he has in mind.

The only way u could ever get close to failure on every set would be if u dropped the weight ever single set and didnt mind ur reps getting lower and lower aswell. But even then u couldnt do it for anywer near 100 sets!!

davie

[pumpster]

arnold didnt go to failure on every set.

if he or anyone did, they wouldnt be doing that many sets.

the more often to failure you go, the less sets you do.

the less sets you can only do. 

This dweeb mentioned somewhere that he weights around 160 lb. soaking wet, and is giving advice. 

That bowflex pic is right up there with the 240 naked pose pic. Classic.

Sounds intrigued; PM Icecold & ND they're running a pre-Xmas blowout on Gazelles & Bows.

[natural al]

I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's.  Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities.  I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there.  Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time.  Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part.  Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....it's in Dardens latest book, it's a fun little read.

[pumpster]

I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there.  Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time.  Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part.  Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....

Totally believable, i remember the unnecessarily vindictive Weider articles about Jones & Nautilus in the 70s. As far as Arnold making faces, that's exactly what was seen in Pumping Iron, where the hard sets were done by others for the most part.

No way to know whether volume's most effective without trying alternatives, which Schwarzenegger didn't do. What is sure is that Oliva actually went through it and thought it was highly effective, both HIT AND the increased effectiveness of machines in most cases.

[natural al]

But in reality Arnold could have just responded to volume better I mean damn, look how  his body responded to AAS.

sergio made his most impressive gains while he worked with jones so did viator, even at arnolds level I'd think it wouldn't hurt to look at different things especially since most of the tactics jones was using were new at the time.  I just thought it was a funny story when i read it.

[davie]

sergio made his most impressive gains while he worked with jones so did viator, even at arnolds level I'd think it wouldn't hurt to look at different things especially since most of the tactics jones was using were new at the time.  I just thought it was a funny story when i read it.

Natural Al, i know uv tried various training protocols and i wander if uv ever tried arthur jones type workouts??

One set of failure (positive failure) per exercise, using pre-exhaust, and working whole body per workout??

Do u think it would be hard to recover from soreness from workout to workout?? +was the goal to add weight each workout or each week, or just at every available oppertunity?

davie

[natural al]

Natural Al, i know uv tried various training protocols and i wander if uv ever tried arthur jones type workouts??

One set of failure (positive failure) per exercise, using pre-exhaust, and working whole body per workout??

Do u think it would be hard to recover from soreness from workout to workout?? +was the goal to add weight each workout or each week, or just at every available oppertunity?

davie

I've never done that.  If I were going to do it the first thing I would have to do was get 2 guys to train with on a consistant basis which I haven't had for about 13 years or so.  2nd I'd like to have the gym to myself or at least a few peices of equipemnt to myself so I could do it right.  I don't remember exactly what jones had viator do off the top of my head but it would take me awhile to get used to that type of workout.  I don't know if a natural guy could do it plus I have asthma so I'd have to get my cardiovascular system in shape before I'd even try it.

I've fooled around with alot of metzer's techniques.  There was a little blurb in flex about 13 or 14 years ago about metzer training yates and they did something called "hyper reps".  I did my best to copy that technique for a few months cause my chest is a very weak bodypart for me so I was trying everything to bring it up.  What I would do was set up an Icarian incline bench with as much weight as the machine could handle plus 2 additional 25 lbs plates fastened to the weight stack.  My first rep would take forever to complete, probably 5-6 seconds and then it was nagatives as slow as possible with a nice controlled positive until I failed then I'd strip some weight off and start again...I shot for a 10 second negative for every rep and the set went on for along time until I literally was moving like 40lbs then I would put the pin at the bottom of the stack and have someone lift it all the way up and I'd hold it as long as I could.  It was brutal.  I dont' remember how long I did those for but my wrists would hurt for along time afterwards so I stopped.

[davie]

I've never done that.  If I were going to do it the first thing I would have to do was get 2 guys to train with on a consistant basis which I haven't had for about 13 years or so.  2nd I'd like to have the gym to myself or at least a few peices of equipemnt to myself so I could do it right.  I don't remember exactly what jones had viator do off the top of my head but it would take me awhile to get used to that type of workout.  I don't know if a natural guy could do it plus I have asthma so I'd have to get my cardiovascular system in shape before I'd even try it.

I've fooled around with alot of metzer's techniques.  There was a little blurb in flex about 13 or 14 years ago about metzer training yates and they did something called "hyper reps".  I did my best to copy that technique for a few months cause my chest is a very weak bodypart for me so I was trying everything to bring it up.  What I would do was set up an Icarian incline bench with as much weight as the machine could handle plus 2 additional 25 lbs plates fastened to the weight stack.  My first rep would take forever to complete, probably 5-6 seconds and then it was nagatives as slow as possible with a nice controlled positive until I failed then I'd strip some weight off and start again...I shot for a 10 second negative for every rep and the set went on for along time until I literally was moving like 40lbs then I would put the pin at the bottom of the stack and have someone lift it all the way up and I'd hold it as long as I could.  It was brutal.  I dont' remember how long I did those for but my wrists would hurt for along time afterwards so I stopped.

Haha sounds tough, but did it help ur chest??lol.

I think jones workout started with legs, and worked up the body to the small body parts,arms calves etc.
Legs went like this i think. leg raise, squat then leg press, all for about a 20 rep target. Going straight fromone to another in HIT style, then on to back etc.

davie

[natural al]

Haha sounds tough, but did it help ur chest??lol.

I think jones workout started with legs, and worked up the body to the small body parts,arms calves etc.
Legs went like this i think. leg raise, squat then leg press, all for about a 20 rep target. Going straight fromone to another in HIT style, then on to back etc.

davie

didn't work for my chest.  I've got really strong delts and they tend to take over almost any movement that I do for chest.  I'm doing something right now that seems to be working but I told the guy who set me up with the technique that I wouldn't spill the beans on it, he's helped me out with a couple of odds and ends over the last year and I don't want to burn a bridge with him, lets just say it's f'n brutal.

[natural al]

I still think Arnold came up with a great program that worked for him.  Ronnie uses volume and so does Jay and they get results, so why can't people accept what Arnold did works?

it works but you have to remember that these guys are the "genetic elite" of the population plus joe average isn't gonna be on half the stuff these guys are to "aid" in thier recovery.  All 3 of those guys and most pro's in general have a genetic predisposition for gaining muscle and recovering which is only multiplied by the drugs they take. 

When I talk about training I'm talking about training as a natural guy who doesn't have the resources to go and spend 500+bucks a month on cutting edge supplements to aid in my recovery.

the simple fact is that if 99.9% of the guys on this board went and trained with jay and kept up with him during the workout and did this for a week but ate what they usually ate and took the supplements they usually take and were drug free they'd be burned out in no time flat.  Natural guys can't train like guys on roids and they can't train like pro's on roids...it might work for some guys but it won't work for 99.9% of the population.

[pumpster]

It's hard to tell; he didn't have much intensity in the movie but it's quite possible he trained hard off-camera. Would have to ask someone who was there. With volume though, even when training hard it's only for a certain portion of overall sets; the rest are effectively warmups.