ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER OR MIKE MENTZER? REGARDING TRAINING!

[natural al]

I'm that is true AL, not sure about the 99% part though.  I think most natural guys don't recover or eat enough and that is where they mess up.  Volume in workouts is a secondary problem IMO.

I was kinda talking in a very broad sense, that's why I said if a guy from this site trained with jay but after the workout was left to his own devices he'd probably fail.  Jay eats an enormous amount of food from what I've seen, most guys can't afford to eat that way or it's just not practical for them.  

that's one of the reasons I'm willing to give a guy like Jeff Willet the benefit of the doubt.  He's working with guys who have PHd's in nutrition and excercise, they watch his every move..if you read his old training journals on the ast site, they monitor pretty much everyhting he does...he's put himself in a "can't fail" situation.  I'm not saying he's natural and that's actually for another thread but think about the assets he has at his disposal.

[natural al]

But wouldn't you agree that Arnold's chest/back supersets are intense as hell?  He is known to have buried alot of guys in the gym.  Doesn't that show intensity?  Dbol isn't going to give the endurance that he had in the gym.

I guess I'd have to know who he buried and what they did leading up to that particular workout.  Was it the first time they trained in that fashion?  Like I said, you learrn to train hard, if these guys were novices to training intesity then it's very believable that he could bury them...if it's a seasoned pro that's used to training that way well that might be a different story.

[bmacsys]

I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's.  Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities.  

I mentioned it. Arnold couldn't hack it in Deland. Franco did well. Sergio got in tremendous shape training under Jones supervision.

[TheEgoCrusher]

One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train.  It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out.  Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.

[pumpster]

One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train.  It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out.  Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.

That's hilarious, you are clueless if you think it's easy. Seems most here don't really understand HIT. Think of it as compressing a lot of the work done in volume into 1-2 very extended sets using a variety of means. It's not for you to say what the correct way is, or to try to diminish it with speculation about gear use.

[natural al]

One heavy set to failure is NOT the way for the common man to train.  It doesn't work unless you are on gear (unless you consider being fat with no lines "working) and it's the lazy man's way out.  Taking the lazy way out is not the right way to do things.

EC....do you honestly think that if someone decides to do a HIT workout they're gonna do one heavy straight set and that's it?  That was perhaps the dumbest most uninformed post in the entire thread.

[Rome]

intensity is not important

- What a statement! that's only true if you're using lots of gear. Too many people rely on that instead of training hard.

[TheEgoCrusher]

That's hilarious, you are clueless if you think it's easy. Seems most here don't really understand HIT. Think of it as compressing a lot of the work done in volume into 1-2 very extended sets using a variety of means. It's not for you to say what the correct way is, or to try to diminish it with speculation about gear use.

It is the LAZY MAN'S WAY TO TRAIN.  Why would you INTENTIONALLY do as LITTLE as possible, risking UNDER-TRAINING, rather than do more VOLUME?  Your chances of OVER-TRAINING are MUCH less probable than those of UNDER-TRAINING.

HIT is slang for "I'm lazy and just don't want to put the work in that I'm capable of...I like trying to get more out of less"

[haider]

No thats not the way intensity is defined for these HIT'ers. The concept of intensity that these guys adhere to really is a percieved intensity than the kind u describe- though ur definition is wrong (no offense), it still offers something that can be GAUGED, i.e. there is an element of progression; the idea that I will outperform myself from last workout, whether it is getting more reps or upping the weight.

So if you're feeling better than your previous workout and you outperform yourself from last time, intensity as u described is increased by virtue of doing more even if perceived intensity may not have been as high.

So basically IMO, "perceived" intensity is a crock of shit since it can't really be measured. Your workouts revolve around how "intense" they are supposed to be instead of how much weight is lifted (or repitions/sets performed with a particular weight).
 A pound of weight is always a pound of weight. A pound of intensity....wait..

bump for discussion

[brianX]

I don't know if anybody has brought this up but Arnold went to train with Arthur Jones back in the early 70's.  Both him and Franco went down to the nautilus facilities.  I've read where jones said arnold trained like a pussy while he was there.  Jones said something like he knows when a guy is reaching failure and when they are faking it and he was convinced arnold was faking it most of the time.  Arnold would make all of these faces and moan but jones felt that he stopped waaaaaay short of failure for the most part.  Arnold then went and denounced all of jones theories in a muscle builder article cause I think weider had a bone to pick with jones over something....it's in Dardens latest book, it's a fun little read.

Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source.

[davie]

It is the LAZY MAN'S WAY TO TRAIN.  Why would you INTENTIONALLY do as LITTLE as possible, risking UNDER-TRAINING, rather than do more VOLUME?  Your chances of OVER-TRAINING are MUCH less probable than those of UNDER-TRAINING.

HIT is slang for "I'm lazy and just don't want to put the work in that I'm capable of...I like trying to get more out of less"

You couldnt be more wrong, i mean u could try but i think this is about as wrong as u can possibly be.

Iv worked with higher volume, moderate volume, and if a good diet/work ethic is applied i made sum progress.
But now i am on a HIT style routine i do not think i have worked harder in shorter time periods ever.

I have carried out leg session in 1/2 an hour including warm-ups and stretching and have had people walk up to me and wer surprised i hadnt been training for hours, b/c i looked so completely wiped out. I just told them i did extended set for 3 exercises on quads and 1 for hams and i was dunzzo!!

Too many times in the past wen i did more volume i would leave thinking i had worked hard b/c id beat targets etc, but in essence i had taken 2 min breaks between sets and had done lots of sets....maybe squatting a weight 6 times wen now i am forcing myself to do it 12.

I think the people in this thread who believe HIT can work are not dismissing the effects of volume on some trainers, but it seems weird that volume trainers are however dismissing the effects that HIT can have on some trainers.
Yes i feel volume can work, but i hope that HIT will work better for me.
You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.

davie

[natural al]

Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source.

why do you say that?  I honestly don't know if he's credible or not...he's written a ton of books so why isn't he credible?

[TheEgoCrusher]

You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.

Yes you should...when you're correct...

[natural al]

You shouldnt just put the shutters down and have such closed minded opinions of things.

Yes you should...when you're correct...

[davie]

My thoughts exactly!!

Thats the thing about bodybuilding, no one person is absolutely correct. its pretty impossible!! As different things work for different people. So i go back to my statement that you shouldnt be so close minded!!

davie

[bmacsys]

He couldn't hack it or he didn't like it?

He didn't like it because he couldn't hack it.

[natural al]

He didn't like it because he couldn't hack it.

that's what the book said, I only scanned it but I think I'm gonna get it for a christmas gift so I'm gonna read it and then I'll know more.  Jones seemed to think arnold stopped way short of training as hard as he could,  judging by what I've read about Casey's training it seems to me Jones knew how to make dudes bust thier balls in the gym, wether you think the techniques work or not is irrelevent you can't argue with the intesity levels that are described during the "colorado experiment" as soon as CAsey would finish a set jones would have guys literally grab him and carry him over to the next machine and away he would go.  I would have loved to see video of this stuff if it exists...

[pumpster]

Yeah, because Ellington Darden is such a credible source.

Let's believe "Brian X" instead. 

[UK Gold]

How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.

Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.

[davie]

How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.

Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.

Dogg crapp isnt really HIT....
And am i right in saying u cant think of any famous bodybuilder u used HIT or HIT style workouts??

What about mentzer (mike and ray), dorian yates, casey viator, sergio, i believe franco trained with arthur jones.

They seems like some of the most famous names in bodybuilding.

Also dorian is multiple olympia winner, and a high intensity training advocate!!

davie

[natural al]

How many Mr Olympias used HIT? NONE!!!!!! Its just an excuse to be lazy and eat lots of food.

Come on, natrual al, pumpster etc, name some fucking names. The only 'bodybuilder' i can think of is that fat turd doggcrapp. No one in their right mind would want to look like him.

I'm not even going to get into the whole DC debate.  HIT has many forms, max-ot is hit orientated so are alot of other programs.  I'm not saying hit is the be all end all of anything and I'm not saying it works for everyone.  What I am saying is that I think natural guys can look at hit and try certain things and probably benefit from it.

do you honestly think that joe average BB can train like the guys that are in the olympia do and succeed?  Like I said earlier, those guys are the "genetic elite", now wether we define genetic elite as guys who are pure mesmorphs or guys who just respond to drugs better than the average guy that's what they are.  if 90% of the guys on this site trained like jay they would be burned out in a week cause you could never recover from that.  Jay's got it down to a science, from his drug intake to his diet to his sleep and recovery.  Joe average just does not, I've been working out along time and I'm still working on things.

the bottom line is that certain things will work for certain guys, some things won't but if you don't look at everything you'll never figure out what works best for you.  If you look at hit type of training and as soon as your done reading about it you decide it's crap then what you've done is miss an opportunity, maybe it'll work for you maybe not but 9 times out of 10 you'll walk away after trying a program no matter how out there it is and learn something.  BB is about learning, you can't learn if you close a door before even looking in the room.

[UK Gold]

Dorian did not use HIT. He has said on may occaisions that the Mentzer way did not use enough sets for a "proper workout". His words, not mine.

Actually, the only people to use HIT are internet nobodies that never post a pic of themselves. No offense guys.

I find that when i'm clean volume traing works best, but when i'm 'on' Dorian style ultra intense [but NOT hit] works.

[natural al]

Dorian did not use HIT. He has said on may occaisions that the Mentzer way did not use enough sets for a "proper workout". His words, not mine.

Actually, the only people to use HIT are internet nobodies that never post a pic of themselves. No offense guys.

I find that when i'm clean volume traing works best, but when i'm 'on' Dorian style ultra intense [but NOT hit] works.

you just kinda proved my point for me.  Dorian didn't use hit in the purest sence of the word or concept but he did educate himself on the subject and take certain aspects and apply them which is exactly what I've been saying for all of my posts.  It's what the guys at AST did when they came up with max ot, it's what DC did-or at least what I think he did when he came up with his principles.  It's what Trevor Smith did when he came up with BFT training.

I'm not saying volume won't work what I'm saying is it's my opinion that for a natural guy, taking certain aspects of HIT type of training might work better than doing volume for the sake of doing volume.

[bmacsys]

that's what the book said, I only scanned it but I think I'm gonna get it for a christmas gift so I'm gonna read it and then I'll know more.  Jones seemed to think arnold stopped way short of training as hard as he could,  judging by what I've read about Casey's training it seems to me Jones knew how to make dudes bust thier balls in the gym, wether you think the techniques work or not is irrelevent you can't argue with the intesity levels that are described during the "colorado experiment" as soon as CAsey would finish a set jones would have guys literally grab him and carry him over to the next machine and away he would go.  I would have loved to see video of this stuff if it exists...

I love reading about Arthur Jones and the Nautilus stuff.

[bmacsys]

What would Tom Platz style of training be called? Legend has it he trained harder than any bigtime bodybuilder in history.