Author Topic: Periodization involving different training protocols  (Read 3473 times)

pumpster

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Periodization involving different training protocols
« on: December 11, 2006, 10:51:52 AM »
Please share results & experiences with each program, in terms of:

1/ Short-term 4-12 weeks approx.

2/ Longer-term

3/ Results using it a second time, later after a break from it.


There are usually a number of different approaches that will work for anyone, once they've been discovered. Most don't try enough alternatives to find out all those that will work, are therefore limited in assumptions as to what works best.

A little experimentation involving trial & error of each program's a huge advantage. Another approach would be to slightly alter existing programs using personally appealing variations, then gauge which version works better after a reasonable trial period.

Another key is motivation-if two approaches work but one is much more appealing to do long-term, that's the one to use. The only caveat: there may be other approaches out there that are equally appealing that haven't yet been tried.

Volume as an example: moderate sets with more effective use of each set using higher intensity can be as or more effective, while still being similar enough to appeal to volume trainers. Some who've used volume might appreciate moderate volume even more because there's more intensity & workouts aren't as drawn-out. From experience, i can't say that standard volume proved any discernible advantage over moderate volume, was just more work and more time-consuming. Volume might help when refining for a contest.

Therefore:

1/ Try every system for a decent amount of time: 4-8 or 12 weeks.

2/ After using the basic version for a while, modify each program slightly, see what the effrects  are.

3/ Keep the programs that work. Stick to one, or:

4/ Rotate the effective ones in and out over time using each equally, or:

5/ Retain one "core" program and provide occasional 4-6 week shocks by rotating in another program that has been found effective.

6/ Post detailed experiences/results here.

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Re: Periodization & trying every training method
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 11:43:45 AM »
Good idea pumpster...should be a sticky?? Takes a lifetime to figure training out so if people of all ages are posting their progress it kind of narrows it down.
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pumpster

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Re: Periodization & trying every training method
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 11:45:18 AM »
Would like to see lots of posts sharing experiences with any program.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 10:51:59 AM »
Ok Pumpster this is for my HIT cycles.


1/ Short-term 4-12 weeks approx.

I experienced some harder than hard workouts when I began, the change form volume was mind blowing but as the rest took its toll guess what i got heavier!!! it seemed greek to me at the time but it worked, but I worked damn hard and initailly put on 7 or so lbs.


2/ Longer-term

Well this is where I built my mass, (i'm no mass monster, i'm clean) but as a 16 year old trusting this is hard when everyone else is battering away rep after rep hour after hour wheras me, well I would do chest and bi's in 20 mins!!!

I built mass as well as anyone but and this is important there will come a poin twhere unless you are a freak you will need to change your training to make new gains and this is why I have taken up firstly HST (got injured on it) now OST and am making new gains and surprising myself!

3/ Results using it a second time, later after a break from it.

well I always come back to it and that says one thing it works! Now like I said I'm into OST and its excellent too, but no doubt what i'll be back to  soon!!!

PUmpster you have blocked me on pms I tried to say i would do it but would take a while!

Any questions feel free!!

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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 09:52:38 PM »
Any serious lifter will tell you that you have to change up, or lose ground. I train my bodybuilders with a variety of methods including a short period of time where they are doing nothing but powerlifting lifts. I use several different phases in the year.
#1 Endurance:  reps of 15 to 20
#2 Hypertrophy: reps of 10 to 12
#3 Strength : reps of 6 to 8
#4 Power : reps of 3 to 6  plus 1 time a week do RM1 on one lift
All of these rep quotes are to failure...
I have found that, not only do I steadily gain size and strength, my clients have also prospered and won shows.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2006, 12:57:47 AM »
15-20


I totally disagree on this, I have found this range completely useless and cannot see the benefit.

What are you supposed to gain from this?

If I were and endurance athlete i may incorporate that but not otherwise


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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2006, 01:27:06 AM »
15-20






I totally disagree on this, I have found this range completely useless and cannot see the benefit.

What are you supposed to gain from this?

If I were and endurance athlete i may incorporate that but not otherwise




 First let me state my credentials:
Bachelors degree in HEALTH AND HUMAN PERFORMANCE, minors in Psychology and Nutrition
8 years experience in training all populations including Boxers, National level bodybuilding competitors, powerlifters, and little old ladies with osteoperosis, fitness and figure girls. Nationally certified Personal Trainer. I am also an ex Golden Gloves fighter. I have also been recruited for the womens pro football league. I pulled a 3.5 in college, just graduated 2 years ago, learned all my rehab techniques from the A.T. from the Red Sox. My Athletes have never taken less than 3rd at any show. I'm a pro powerlifter with 3 state records and 1 world record, besides being a national level competitor in bodybuilding with an Overall and many 1st place trophies under my belt. So now, if you can top those credentials, BRING IT!!!! Otherwise shut the f**k up...

ta ta

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 09:07:13 AM »
meltdown.


Now my Love I have a masters in sports science you twat so you pathetic credentials are not an issue for me.

Secondly I was not even rude to you, you just simply used all this a a vehicle to show your "resume" online and think that now you have dished it out we must bow down to your superior knowledge and not debate anything.

Now you fat crack whore, i'll ignore all of your fake credentials and again ask you why would you use the 15-20 rep range?

It IS MY OPINION that this zone is useless except for legs, now please explain to this to me, don't worry you will not baffle me with science! hahaha

ta ta nerd


ps what is your world record in im dying to know!
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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 07:59:42 PM »
Ah name calling...how mature...so what exactly have you done with your piece of paper? Do you do anything with it???Or does it hang on the wall of your nice little office that you go to every day bypassing the gym...Just let me know what trailer park you live in and I'll swing by with all my credentials in hand. I may have gotten a little too pissed off at you, but I am already tired of people questioning my cred. Most of them are not educated, they only know what they read in the muscle magazines, and as professionals we know those mags are geared towards selling products. And just as an FYI, I use the 15 to 20 reps for athletes such as boxers, martial artists, marathoners, etc...as their main training range. Every type of athlete has a different training protocol. The four training protocols I mentioned are used in all programs but to different degrees. Also incorporated into the programs are plyometrics and functional training.My athletes also receive AIS (Active Isolated Stretching) post workout, of the part they worked the day before. Does that answer your question????

Hedgehog

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2006, 11:22:57 PM »
Ah name calling...how mature...so what exactly have you done with your piece of paper? Do you do anything with it???Or does it hang on the wall of your nice little office that you go to every day bypassing the gym...Just let me know what trailer park you live in and I'll swing by with all my credentials in hand. I may have gotten a little too pissed off at you, but I am already tired of people questioning my cred. Most of them are not educated, they only know what they read in the muscle magazines, and as professionals we know those mags are geared towards selling products. And just as an FYI, I use the 15 to 20 reps for athletes such as boxers, martial artists, marathoners, etc...as their main training range. Every type of athlete has a different training protocol. The four training protocols I mentioned are used in all programs but to different degrees. Also incorporated into the programs are plyometrics and functional training.My athletes also receive AIS (Active Isolated Stretching) post workout, of the part they worked the day before. Does that answer your question????


 
Any serious lifter will tell you that you have to change up, or lose ground. I train my bodybuilders with a variety of methods including a short period of time where they are doing nothing but powerlifting lifts. I use several different phases in the year.
#1 Endurance:  reps of 15 to 20
#2 Hypertrophy: reps of 10 to 12
#3 Strength : reps of 6 to 8
#4 Power : reps of 3 to 6  plus 1 time a week do RM1 on one lift
All of these rep quotes are to failure...
I have found that, not only do I steadily gain size and strength, my clients have also prospered and won shows.


Explain why a 15 to 20 rep range would be of any use to bodybuilders.

Also, I would be interested in seeing your argument for training to failure.

-Hedge
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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2006, 11:47:16 PM »

 

Explain why a 15 to 20 rep range would be of any use to bodybuilders.

Also, I would be interested in seeing your argument for training to failure.

-Hedge

Certainly. With the beginning bodybuilder, I start them out with light weight and high reps to build up some endurance. Then they are quickly moved into the hypertrophy stage (12 reps, heavier weight) which is much longer. As stated before, all four protocols are used with all athletes but with different periodizations. With bodybuilders, the 15 rep range is useful pre-contest when the athlete is at their weakest and helps to "cut up" for a show. As to the "to failure" question:  To Failure implies that the lifter cannot safely and with good form perform another rep. This is where the forced reps come into play. Forced reps and heavy negatives are where you get the most improvement. You are pushing the envelope of what you can do. The overload principle: more weight: body adapts = bigger and stronger physique. These methods have worked great for me and my clients. I'm not saying I have all the answers and that my methods are the only ones of value, but I have developed my own training style over time, and I am constantly seeking new and improved ways to better myself as a trainer and as a competitive bodybuilder. I'm always open to new ideas and training styles.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 01:01:59 AM »
Ah name calling...how mature...so what exactly have you done with your piece of paper? Do you do anything with it???Or does it hang on the wall of your nice little office that you go to every day bypassing the gym...Just let me know what trailer park you live in and I'll swing by with all my credentials in hand. I may have gotten a little too pissed off at you, but I am already tired of people questioning my cred. Most of them are not educated, they only know what they read in the muscle magazines, and as professionals we know those mags are geared towards selling products. And just as an FYI, I use the 15 to 20 reps for athletes such as boxers, martial artists, marathoners, etc...as their main training range. Every type of athlete has a different training protocol. The four training protocols I mentioned are used in all programs but to different degrees. Also incorporated into the programs are plyometrics and functional training.My athletes also receive AIS (Active Isolated Stretching) post workout, of the part they worked the day before. Does that answer your question????

Trailer park? Highly original, now i know your lying as you have a limited mental capacity. I asked a question YOU answered agressively like I had been rude but you took offence to me questioning your pathetic argument.

Secondly my dear we are talking about BODYBUILDING! You stated you use 15-20 reps as a phase in the year!

Now your saying and I quote "And just as an FYI, I use the 15 to 20 reps for athletes such as boxers, martial artists, marathoners, etc...as their main training range.

So we are changing our story now as I have highlighted the stupidity are my scientific world record holder?

15-20 may be useful for pre contest I agree however your bringing that up now as a way to cover your ass because of flaws in your posts.

ta ta

PS WHAT IS YOUR WORLD RECORD IN!!! DO TELL.
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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006, 01:10:13 AM »
Trailer park? Highly original, now i know your lying as you have a limited mental capacity. I asked a question YOU answered agressively like I had been rude but you took offence to me questioning your pathetic argument.

Secondly my dear we are talking about BODYBUILDING! You stated you use 15-20 reps as a phase in the year!

Now your saying and I quote "And just as an FYI, I use the 15 to 20 reps for athletes such as boxers, martial artists, marathoners, etc...as their main training range.

So we are changing our story now as I have highlighted the stupidity are my scientific world record holder?

Ya know, if you wouldn't act like a jackass I might want to talk to you. I did apoligize for getting pissed off, you again acted like a jerk so I really don't feel the need to prove myself to you. To prove my stats I'd have to give you my name and the Powerlifting federations I belong to. I just don't feel like I want to give you that info. Why not act like a gentleman and not a condescending jerk-off? It's really no matter to me if you believe me or not. I have a life, I have a man, I have clients, I don't need to sit on this site for hours at a time just to get some attention and to pretend I have friends...

15-20 may be useful for pre contest I agree however your bringing that up now as a way to cover your ass because of flaws in your posts.

ta ta

PS WHAT IS YOUR WORLD RECORD IN!!! DO TELL.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 01:16:31 AM »
Darling you spoke to me rudely first! I asked politely and disagreed thats all!

Its too late anyway I dislike you and now you will regret it, you offer nothing here really your defensiveness is suspicious to say the least and now not gining me your world record smacks of lies.

Also when qouting do not do it inside the with the other post type after the
Quote
thig is difficult to see what bullshit your typing next.

Dont try and dig your way out of this, you must know saying your a world record holder then not proving it is the silliest thing you could do here don't you!!

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Hedgehog

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2006, 03:38:18 AM »
BuffGoddess, read this thread:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=96932.msg1399856#msg1399856

Your Maa, you may too.

In short: if the two of you want to "go at it", do it elsewhere.

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body88

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2006, 07:12:29 AM »



Post proof of these claims. Until then you are another "talker". In a place where "talking" is as common as meltdowns.

Devon97

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2006, 07:50:58 AM »
Certainly. With the beginning bodybuilder, I start them out with light weight and high reps to build up some endurance. Then they are quickly moved into the hypertrophy stage (12 reps, heavier weight) which is much longer. As stated before, all four protocols are used with all athletes but with different periodizations. With bodybuilders, the 15 rep range is useful pre-contest when the athlete is at their weakest and helps to "cut up" for a show.

Lifting exclusively in 15 rep pre-contest approach makes no sense. Pre contest you want to lift heavy ( 85% 1RM) to maintain muscle and myogenic tone. You will look flat lose muscle lifting high rep on an extreme cutting diet in pre-contest diet mode.

Let me ask you Buff Godess...... since you are an acomplished powerlifter, Please tell me what the most successful periodization model used by powerlifters is?

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2006, 08:03:57 AM »
pump...have you heard of a book

Hardcore Bodybuilding : A Scientific Approach
by Frederick C. Hatfield


that has a periodization program. I was wondering what you thought of it if you have read it before.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2006, 10:23:50 AM »
Lifting exclusively in 15 rep pre-contest approach makes no sense. Pre contest you want to lift heavy ( 85% 1RM) to maintain muscle and myogenic tone. You will look flat lose muscle lifting high rep on an extreme cutting diet in pre-contest diet mode.

Let me ask you Buff Godess...... since you are an acomplished powerlifter, Please tell me what the most successful periodization model used by powerlifters is?

My friend she knows absolutley zero and will not answer, if she proves me wrong then great.


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BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2006, 05:02:54 PM »
Lifting exclusively in 15 rep pre-contest approach makes no sense. Pre contest you want to lift heavy ( 85% 1RM) to maintain muscle and myogenic tone. You will look flat lose muscle lifting high rep on an extreme cutting diet in pre-contest diet mode.

Let me ask you Buff Godess...... since you are an acomplished powerlifter, Please tell me what the most successful periodization model used by powerlifters is?


Since I havn't made myself clear let me answer that. I use the 15 rep range in the last 2 to 3 weeks. If you have ever prepared for a competiton you know you can barely move in the last couple of weeks. You look awesomes but can't fight your way out of a paperbag. So yes I do train heavy until the very end. I really don't mind clarifying myself if you don't understand where I'm coming from. These methods have worked great for me, I'll be competing in 3 National level contests this year. I'll post pics after the shows.

As for the powerlifting question: I get most of my training knowledge from old-school powerlifters who swear by the West Coast Barbell training program. Yes I have competed in powerlifting, but my main focus now is bodybuilding.

Devon97

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2006, 05:23:27 PM »
It doesnt matter if you are in the last 2 weeks before a show or 6 weeks out, and it doesnt matter if you are too weak to fight your way out of a paper bag..... you should STILL lift as heavy as you can in the 4-6 rep range. Lifting heavy is defined as ( 85%1RM or more). So if you are lifting in the 12-15 rep range that is NOT heavy.
Let me ask you Buffgoddess.... If someone 2 weeks out from a show is very weak and depleated with very low muscle glycogen stores, why then would you want to do high reps( 12-15) which will burn up more muscle glycogen and is more metabolicly demanding? It is common knowledge to always have a person in pre-contest diet mode lift as heavy as they can for 4-6 reps... but NEVER high reps....thats how you lose muscle when in a pre-contest diet and depleated state.
Showing me photos of you from a national level show does not prove that doing high reps is better then low reps and heavy weight when in pre-contest diet mode.

Well if you dont even know the most effictive model of periodization used by powerlifters today then I will give you a hint. Louie Simmons from West Side uses it.

One more question Buff Goddess....... How would you define " periodization?"

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2006, 11:04:55 PM »
It doesnt matter if you are in the last 2 weeks before a show or 6 weeks out, and it doesnt matter if you are too weak to fight your way out of a paper bag..... you should STILL lift as heavy as you can in the 4-6 rep range. Lifting heavy is defined as ( 85%1RM or more). So if you are lifting in the 12-15 rep range that is NOT heavy.
Let me ask you Buffgoddess.... If someone 2 weeks out from a show is very weak and depleated with very low muscle glycogen stores, why then would you want to do high reps( 12-15) which will burn up more muscle glycogen and is more metabolicly demanding? It is common knowledge to always have a person in pre-contest diet mode lift as heavy as they can for 4-6 reps... but NEVER high reps....thats how you lose muscle when in a pre-contest diet and depleated state.
Showing me photos of you from a national level show does not prove that doing high reps is better then low reps and heavy weight when in pre-contest diet mode.

Well if you dont even know the most effictive model of periodization used by powerlifters today then I will give you a hint. Louie Simmons from West Side uses it.

One more question Buff Goddess....... How would you define " periodization?"




Well let me go here for a minute: Powerlifting is NOT my main focus as stated before, I have records, they still stand, and so please feel free to inform me of anything you feel I'm lacking knowlegewise on these issues. It may come in handy later if I ever feel like doing another meet. As for the rest of it we're done. You are just trying to pick fights and I'm not going there with you or anyone else. Have a nice day

Devon97

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 04:52:27 AM »


Well let me go here for a minute: Powerlifting is NOT my main focus as stated before, I have records, they still stand, and so please feel free to inform me of anything you feel I'm lacking knowlegewise on these issues. It may come in handy later if I ever feel like doing another meet. As for the rest of it we're done. You are just trying to pick fights and I'm not going there with you or anyone else. Have a nice day

Ok some knowledge that may come in handy in the future if you feel like doing another meet would be beneficial to follow conjugated periodization and read up on Louie SImmons from WestSIDE Barbell and Dave Tate at Elitefts.com
How is me asking your definition of something trying to pick a fight?
YOU LISTED YOUR CREDENTIALS in an effort to recognize yourself so if someone asks you a question then you should br prepared to answer it.

BuffGoddess

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2006, 05:15:59 PM »
Ok some knowledge that may come in handy in the future if you feel like doing another meet would be beneficial to follow conjugated periodization and read up on Louie SImmons from WestSIDE Barbell and Dave Tate at Elitefts.com
How is me asking your definition of something trying to pick a fight?
YOU LISTED YOUR CREDENTIALS in an effort to recognize yourself so if someone asks you a question then you should br prepared to answer it.

Excuse my mistake on the WestSIDE barbell... I listed my credentials so people would know I'm not quoting from some magazine I read. I have real LIFE experience, and I know what works for me and my clients, as our vast array of trophies prove. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest. If you have a valid question that you would like my opinion on, please ask.

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Re: Periodization involving different training protocols
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2006, 06:10:28 PM »
Excuse my mistake on the WestSIDE barbell... I listed my credentials so people would know I'm not quoting from some magazine I read. I have real LIFE experience, and I know what works for me and my clients, as our vast array of trophies prove. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest. If you have a valid question that you would like my opinion on, please ask.

I have asked you 3 valid questions.

I will ask again.....

How would you define periodization? .... based on your real LIFE experience and vast array of trophies.