Treasonous Officer Just Can't Keep His Mouth Shut

[Dos Equis]

Exactly.  That ol' boys club has one another's back like you wouldn't believe.

I'm not sure it's the boys club so much as survival.  If the CG says he wants to punish someone and the charges have to originate with the company commander, you better believe the company commander will prefer those charges (I think that's what it's called, but I've been out for a while, so my terminology is a little rusty). 

[Dos Equis]

this guy is clearly under your skin.

so he put the value of speaking his opinion and leaving the war, above his freedom from jail.

He made a choice and he's living with it.

you've posted quite a few articles about it.  You seem pretty upset.

I'm posting updates as they happen.  Of course I'm upset.  I place great value on honor and an oath and military service.  There are few higher callings.  It's over your head. 

[240 is Back]

I'm posting updates as they happen.  Of course I'm upset.  I place great value on honor and an oath and military service.  There are few higher callings.  It's over your head. 

I guess a high school dropout who entered the military, flew bombing missions over Korea before returning for hid GED, AA, AS, BS, MBA, and PhD in an area he cannot answer... working weekends as a marine biologist and sex advice counselor where he naively believes that no one drinks or has sex until they're 30 "because they told him so"...

a man like that would understand.

[Dos Equis]

I guess a high school dropout who entered the military, flew bombing missions over Korea before returning for hid GED, AA, AS, BS, MBA, and PhD in an area he cannot answer... working weekends as a marine biologist and sex advice counselor where he naively believes that no one drinks or has sex until they're 30 "because they told him so"...

a man like that would understand.

   LOL. 

[tu_holmes]

Hero??  Only by liberals.  He's a coward.

I don't think you can call someone a coward be cause they choose not to go to war... He's obviously dealing with his actions... there will come a time where he will either win his case or go to Prison... I'm fairly sure he knows that.

That's not the act of a coward... on some level, you have to admit that a coward will do whatever they are told blindly... knowing that no matter what happens, he's just doing what he's told and can not be held responsible for them.

[Dos Equis]

I don't think you can call someone a coward be cause they choose not to go to war... He's obviously dealing with his actions... there will come a time where he will either win his case or go to Prison... I'm fairly sure he knows that.

That's not the act of a coward... on some level, you have to admit that a coward will do whatever they are told blindly... knowing that no matter what happens, he's just doing what he's told and can not be held responsible for them.

I see it differently.  I think he is afraid to die.  Instead of placing his life on the line, like he took an oath to do DURING the war, he sent his subordinates to die in his place.  That's cowardice in my book.  What he should have done is taken his sorry butt to Iraq, served his combat tour, then got out.  I have a friend on the ground in Iraq right now.  He's getting out, AFTER his combat tour is over.  He was actually afraid to go.  But he's there and doing great things.  That's what honorable people do.   

[ribonucleic]

I see it differently.  I think he is afraid to die.  Instead of placing his life on the line, like he took an oath to do DURING the war, he sent his subordinates to die in his place.  That's cowardice in my book.  What he should have done is taken his sorry butt to Iraq, served his combat tour, then got out.  I have a friend on the ground in Iraq right now.  He's getting out, AFTER his combat tour is over.  He was actually afraid to go.  But he's there and doing great things.  That's what honorable people do.   

I thought he expressed a willingness to serve in Afghanistan.

I could be wrong.

[tu_holmes]

I thought he expressed a willingness to serve in Afghanistan.

I could be wrong.

I too thought so... perhaps we are both wrong... I feel that we have lost site of the goal... Where is Bin Laden? Why don't we have him? Shouldn't that STILL be our focus?

Could you imagine how WWII would have been had we decided to take a detour from Berlin, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki?

[ribonucleic]

Where is Bin Laden? Why don't we have him? Shouldn't that STILL be our focus?

Q:    Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden.  Why is that?

THE PRESIDENT:   You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

... another left-wing rag   

[Dos Equis]

I thought he expressed a willingness to serve in Afghanistan.

I could be wrong.

I think that's true from what I recall, but so what?  That wasn't his mission.  Also, Afghanistan is not nearly as dangerous as Iraq.  I'm not even sure there are artillery battalions/brigades there?  Headhunter would know?  But he's probably so short he cannot reach his keyboard.  

[tu_holmes]

I think that's true from what I recall, but so what?  That wasn't his mission.  Also, Afghanistan is not nearly as dangerous as Iraq.  I'm not even sure there are artillery battalions/brigades there?  Headhunter would know?  But he's probably so short he cannot reach his keyboard.   

But it certainly SHOULD have been the mission... Are you going to argue that?

[ribonucleic]

I think that's true from what I recall, but so what?  That wasn't his mission.

His oath would have been to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

Right now, the Constitution's biggest enemy isn't in Iraq or Afghanistan.



"It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

[Dos Equis]

But it certainly SHOULD have been the mission... Are you going to argue that?

Am I going to argue that his men from Fort Lewis should have gone to Afghanistan instead of Iraq?  No.  I don't have enough information to reach that conclusion.  And that's a red herring anyway.  His unit was ordered to deploy to Iraq.  That was their mission.  That was his mission. 

[tu_holmes]

Am I going to argue that his men from Fort Lewis should have gone to Afghanistan instead of Iraq?  No.  I don't have enough information to reach that conclusion.  And that's a red herring anyway.  His unit was ordered to deploy to Iraq.  That was their mission.  That was his mission. 

I don't think it's a "red herring" as you put it... I think it's highly important. I don't care where his unit was, and I'm not exactly talking about "him" at the moment.

I'm talking about how as far as I'm concerned... I haven't seen a completed mission SINCE we started fighting anyone... and it seems to me, that the American public in general, doesn't seem to care... I do not think the people in America are stupid, but I do think they're a bit A.D.D. when it comes to what we should be focusing on at any given time.

[Dos Equis]

I don't think it's a "red herring" as you put it... I think it's highly important. I don't care where his unit was, and I'm not exactly talking about "him" at the moment.

I'm talking about how as far as I'm concerned... I haven't seen a completed mission SINCE we started fighting anyone... and it seems to me, that the American public in general, doesn't seem to care... I do not think the people in America are stupid, but I do think they're a bit A.D.D. when it comes to what we should be focusing on at any given time.

Then we're focusing on different things.  I'm talking about Watada and his obligations.  Sounds like you're really talking about the war in Iraq in general. 

And "the mission" was to deploy and provide support.  The mission for his unit is completed when they return home, like many other units have done. 

[tu_holmes]

Then we're focusing on different things.  I'm talking about Watada and his obligations.  Sounds like you're really talking about the war in Iraq in general. 

And "the mission" was to deploy and provide support.  The mission for his unit is completed when they return home, like many other units have done. 

Perhaps, but it is often difficult to seperate the two, when they are so closely entwined.

If you look back, I have both defended (based upon principle) Lt. Watanda, and also condemned him for not fulfilling his obligation... I myself, can see both sides and find it difficult to support or criticize him... These matters, to me, are just not so black and white I suppose.

[Dos Equis]

Perhaps, but it is often difficult to seperate the two, when they are so closely entwined.

If you look back, I have both defended (based upon principle) Lt. Watanda, and also condemned him for not fulfilling his obligation... I myself, can see both sides and find it difficult to support or criticize him... These matters, to me, are just not so black and white I suppose.

I think there is lots of black, white, and gray in many areas.  This one is black and white to me.     And I'm a little wrapped up in this because I'm a vet and very close to the military.  We have a very large military presence in my church.  My closest friend is in Iraq.  One of my neighbors is in the military and was in Iraq for over a year.  Makes it very hard for me to sympathize with Watada.  He has been pretty much universally condemned by active duty and retired military.  I know lots of active duty members who didn't want go, and don't want to be there.  But they understand and honor their commitment. 

I was just talking to the wife of one of my friends who is in Iraq.  She hates Bush.  Thinks we never should have invaded.  But she also condemns Watada. 

[240 is Back]

Beach bum,

Let's say you were serving in Iraq.  You'd spent the whole week helping a dozen families move into a new building.  You laughed with them, worked with them, ate and slep twith them.  On the last day, a sniper runs into their building and shoots one US soldier, wounding him.

Your CO orders you to take out the building.  "but but, i recommend"... you retort.  He doesn't care.  he has a deadline and you're getting that man and leaving that town now.  As you prepare your ordinance to level the building, the families open the windows and beg you not to fire.

You have to choose.  Follow orders (the right thing!) and likely kill 60 people including the sniper.  Or, refuse (the wrong thing?) and not fire.

What do you do?  And if there's a 1% chance you follow your conscience, how you can fault this man who refuses to go to iraq?   You called this man "treasonous", right?  Is there even a 1% chance you'd commit treason?

[tu_holmes]

I think there is lots of black, white, and gray in many areas.  This one is black and white to me.     And I'm a little wrapped up in this because I'm a vet and very close to the military.  We have a very large military presence in my church.  My closest friend is in Iraq.  One of my neighbors is in the military and was in Iraq for over a year.  Makes it very hard for me to sympathize with Watada.  He has been pretty much universally condemned by active duty and retired military.  I know lots of active duty members who didn't want go, and don't want to be there.  But they understand and honor their commitment. 

I was just talking to the wife of one of my friends who is in Iraq.  She hates Bush.  Thinks we never should have invaded.  But she also condemns Watada. 

That's not an uncommon response... My cousin is in Iraq right now... I think that if I were a person in the military I too would see it as a slap in the face.

I guess at it's most simplest is the idea that you have committed to serving and doing what your superiors tell you... It's not about legality... It's whether you're right or wrong in your actions... While his premise is right... his actions do seem wrong.

Like I said... I find it difficult to condemn or praise him.

[Dos Equis]

Beach bum,

Let's say you were serving in Iraq.  You'd spent the whole week helping a dozen families move into a new building.  You laughed with them, worked with them, ate and slep twith them.  On the last day, a sniper runs into their building and shoots one US soldier, wounding him.

Your CO orders you to take out the building.  "but but, i recommend"... you retort.  He doesn't care.  he has a deadline and you're getting that man and leaving that town now.  As you prepare your ordinance to level the building, the families open the windows and beg you not to fire.

You have to choose.  Follow orders (the right thing!) and likely kill 60 people including the sniper.  Or, refuse (the wrong thing?) and not fire.

What do you do?  And if there's a 1% chance you follow your conscience, how you can fault this man who refuses to go to iraq?   You called this man "treasonous", right?  Is there even a 1% chance you'd commit treason?

Not the wild hypothetical again.  Sorry.  Won't bite.   

[Dos Equis]

That's not an uncommon response... My cousin is in Iraq right now... I think that if I were a person in the military I too would see it as a slap in the face.

I guess at it's most simplest is the idea that you have committed to serving and doing what your superiors tell you... It's not about legality... It's whether you're right or wrong in your actions... While his premise is right... his actions do seem wrong.

Like I said... I find it difficult to condemn or praise him.

I hear you.  I can respect that. 

[240 is Back]

Not the wild hypothetical again.  Sorry.  Won't bite.  

Half of this board is hypotneticals on future situations and solutions.  Suppose I gave you the hypothetical: "Would you chop off your arm for a big Mac"?

The answer would be an easy "NO".

I guess this answer didn't come so easy to you.  If there's any doubt, then you really shouldn't question this man's actions, because you open up the same door of doubt.

If you could level the building without blinking, I think you would have just admitted it.  I think you're a better man for not admitting your willingness, although it does leave you vulnerable in this argument.

[headhuntersix]

I think that's true from what I recall, but so what?  That wasn't his mission.  Also, Afghanistan is not nearly as dangerous as Iraq.  I'm not even sure there are artillery battalions/brigades there?  Headhunter would know?  But he's probably so short he cannot reach his keyboard.  

Not as dangerous..well that depends on where u are. This place is the forgotten war. But u can ask any of my soldiers how "easy" this place is. All of them have been IED'd, ambushed or seen combat in one form or another. It is different from Iraq....We don't get IED'd at the same rate and u know more less where u can go and can't go. U have a better idea of where ur going to get lit up. The terrain makes it difficult to fight and there are few urban sprawls like Iraq. I leave in 3 days.

[tu_holmes]

Not as dangerous..well that depends on where u are. This place is the forgotten war. But u can ask any of my soldiers how "easy" this place is. All of them have been IED'd, ambushed or seen combat in one form or another. It is different from Iraq....We don't get IED'd at the same rate and u know more less where u can go and can't go. U have a better idea of where ur going to get lit up. The terrain makes it difficult to fight and there are few urban sprawls like Iraq. I leave in 3 days.

Stay safe until you get out!!

[headhuntersix]

Well getting home anyway..got plenty of years left until I get out.