Author Topic: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)  (Read 2051 times)

chainsaw

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Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« on: December 21, 2006, 06:00:22 AM »
I always hear that you can't spot reduce by training with weights.  As I was squating this morning on an empty stomach, I noticed that I couldn't do near as much weight.  Obviously, one reason is because I didn't have glycogen stores in my blood, hence muscles. 

Now, lets say I used all the glycogen in my leg muscles, would the muscles in turn, turn to the fat in that area to replentish that glycogen?  If so, than fat in that area would have to get reduced correct?

I wasn't able to pinpoint this in any book or online.  I always hear you cannot spot fat reduce, but I don't know.

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lovemonkey

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2006, 06:59:31 AM »
no no and no. First of all, fat can not turn into glycogen and second, fat goes out in the blood circulation before it gets absorbed by your muscles. So the fat can basically come from anywhere and there is no higher tendencie for the leg fat to be used in the legs.

Third, your glycogen is in fact restored although it may not feel like it. Just a smaller amount due to bad nutrition. As you problaby know that glycogen comes from the restproducts of muscle atrophy(since your backup glycogen storage in the liver is pretty much depleted after a whole night of starvation. If your leg muscles used fat only during squats, you would be weak as fuck.
from incomplete data

YoungBlood

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2006, 08:05:12 AM »
Charles Poliquin had a seminar once, I believe Milos Sarcev posted about this, where Charles scientifically proved that spot reduction IS possible.
I have not seen any information about it other than message boards, and have seen zero information backing his claim. I'd certainly like to, however.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2006, 08:07:32 AM »
no no and no. First of all, fat can not turn into glycogen and second, fat goes out in the blood circulation before it gets absorbed by your muscles. So the fat can basically come from anywhere and there is no higher tendencie for the leg fat to be used in the legs.

Third, your glycogen is in fact restored although it may not feel like it. Just a smaller amount due to bad nutrition. As you problaby know that glycogen comes from the restproducts of muscle atrophy(since your backup glycogen storage in the liver is pretty much depleted after a whole night of starvation. If your leg muscles used fat only during squats, you would be weak as f**k.

so you're saying that doing squats and such in the morning without food is very catabolic?

i don't buy that. arnold himself would train weights in the morning w/o food.

personally i just go with a stimulant and hope that the end result is more fat burnt.

chainsaw

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2006, 08:13:38 AM »
so you're saying that doing squats and such in the morning without food is very catabolic?

i don't buy that. arnold himself would train weights in the morning w/o food.

personally i just go with a stimulant and hope that the end result is more fat burnt.

That's what I do.  I have to be sellin at 6am so I sleep in my gym clothes on, wake up to my coffee that has an alarm on it, an ephedra, and out the door.  If I can hit the gym 2x in a day, I'll just do cardio in the morning.  Otherwise, weights as well.  I eat after training with the weights, maybe wait an hour or two after a cardio only session.
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BEAST 8692

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2006, 08:51:07 AM »
That's what I do.  I have to be sellin at 6am so I sleep in my gym clothes on, wake up to my coffee that has an alarm on it, an ephedra, and out the door.  If I can hit the gym 2x in a day, I'll just do cardio in the morning.  Otherwise, weights as well.  I eat after training with the weights, maybe wait an hour or two after a cardio only session.

one thing i always do is drink as much water as i can upon rising.

i always have at least 2 litres in me prior w.o

buffbodz

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2006, 09:21:10 AM »
The old sane goes, training on en empty stomach will burn fat.  Glycogen is the body's preferred fuel and once that's gone it starts look for another source of ATP.  Fat will be burned only when glycogen (carbs) has been used up.  I'm not a believer in spot training but by building up your legs and chest.  Cardio will burn what ever fat is stored which for many is belly fat.  Muscle also increases metabolism.  For every lb. of muscle you will need 50 extra calories a day to keep it.  If you can't train on an empty stomach a protein shake won't do you any harm but any carb drink like gatoraid is a no, no till after weight training and cardio.  That's the time to refuel muscles and the carbs won't be stored as fat.  If you overdue it on cardio, it will result in a muscle loss.  So know the zone your body is in during cardio.  Either fat burning or heart conditioning, but overdue it and muscle will be burned and that sucks.
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lovemonkey

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2006, 10:21:47 AM »
The old sane goes, training on en empty stomach will burn fat.  Glycogen is the body's preferred fuel and once that's gone it starts look for another source of ATP.  Fat will be burned only when glycogen (carbs) has been used up.  I'm not a believer in spot training but by building up your legs and chest.  Cardio will burn what ever fat is stored which for many is belly fat.  Muscle also increases metabolism.  For every lb. of muscle you will need 50 extra calories a day to keep it.  If you can't train on an empty stomach a protein shake won't do you any harm but any carb drink like gatoraid is a no, no till after weight training and cardio.  That's the time to refuel muscles and the carbs won't be stored as fat.  If you overdue it on cardio, it will result in a muscle loss.  So know the zone your body is in during cardio.  Either fat burning or heart conditioning, but overdue it and muscle will be burned and that sucks.

actually, you burn more fat when glycogen is present. The two go together and create a synergistic effect. It nots like "uh oh, no glycogen, gotta find some fat". The fat burning process does not benefit from a lack of glycogen, more like the opposite. So from what I understand, there really is no point in doing cardio on an empty stomach (especially in BB, eat something will ya). And weightlifting on a empty stomach... well not exactly the most optimal thing to do.

Eating protein only as a meal is a complete waste btw. 18 out of 20 amino acids can be turned into glycogen and if there is no carbs present in your meal, the body much more prefer transforming the protein into glycogen.
from incomplete data

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2006, 11:45:32 AM »
so you're saying that doing squats and such in the morning without food is very catabolic?

i don't buy that. arnold himself would train weights in the morning w/o food.

personally i just go with a stimulant and hope that the end result is more fat burnt.

he also did two full workouts twice a day, six days a week, and couple of hours every time. Should you train like they did in 1970 - 1980, or should you try to get some benefit from the knowledge which is learned from those mistakes?

Adam Empire

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2006, 11:59:50 AM »
That's what I do.  I have to be sellin at 6am so I sleep in my gym clothes on, wake up to my coffee that has an alarm on it, an ephedra, and out the door.  If I can hit the gym 2x in a day, I'll just do cardio in the morning.  Otherwise, weights as well.  I eat after training with the weights, maybe wait an hour or two after a cardio only session.

How can you lift like that so early.  I just don't have a "psyched up" feel that early...
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Sergio Rules 77

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »
I always hear that you can't spot reduce by training with weights.  As I was squating this morning on an empty stomach, I noticed that I couldn't do near as much weight.  Obviously, one reason is because I didn't have glycogen stores in my blood, hence muscles. 

Now, lets say I used all the glycogen in my leg muscles, would the muscles in turn, turn to the fat in that area to replentish that glycogen?  If so, than fat in that area would have to get reduced correct?

I wasn't able to pinpoint this in any book or online.  I always hear you cannot spot fat reduce, but I don't know.



AFAIK the only way you can lose fat of any kind without losing hard earned muscle is with Hydroxycut :).

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BEAST 8692

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 04:41:03 AM »
he also did two full workouts twice a day, six days a week, and couple of hours every time. Should you train like they did in 1970 - 1980, or should you try to get some benefit from the knowledge which is learned from those mistakes?

yes, you make a good point, but i honestly have never felt the need to. i believe i have enough glycogen from the day before.

all eating before training really does is raise your blood sugar levels, it doesn't give you instant glycogen.

if it were true what some of you believe then there would be no way i could do 550 lb squats and 400lb rows or run sprints/intervals for 5 miles first thing in the morning.

don't believe all the hype you hear from supplement pushers like milos and cell tech.

if milos knew how to build muscle so efficiently with food supplements then he wouldn't have had to rely so much on chemicals and synthol now would he? ;)

DK II

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2006, 04:44:52 AM »
actually, you burn more fat when glycogen is present. The two go together and create a synergistic effect. It nots like "uh oh, no glycogen, gotta find some fat". The fat burning process does not benefit from a lack of glycogen, more like the opposite. So from what I understand, there really is no point in doing cardio on an empty stomach (especially in BB, eat something will ya). And weightlifting on a empty stomach... well not exactly the most optimal thing to do.

Eating protein only as a meal is a complete waste btw. 18 out of 20 amino acids can be turned into glycogen and if there is no carbs present in your meal, the body much more prefer transforming the protein into glycogen.

Good post.

chainsaw

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2006, 04:52:37 AM »
How can you lift like that so early.  I just don't have a "psyched up" feel that early...
[/quote

We'll, lets put it like this very simply.  I hate bodyfat, as well as being weak and small more than I hate getting up and catching a pump.  It is that simple, and I use that mindframe to my complete advantage in everything I do.
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SteelePegasus

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2006, 06:08:56 AM »
so you're saying that doing squats and such in the morning without food is very catabolic?

i don't buy that. arnold himself would train weights in the morning w/o food.

personally i just go with a stimulant and hope that the end result is more fat burnt.

I always wondered about this...I never see a discussion on lifting weights first thing in the morning and the nutritional protocol for it.

I too lift first thing in the morning and I struggle with the empty stomach vs pre work out shake  debate.

as of lately I have been doing the emty stomach (BCAA, Glumtamine)  and Post work out = 30g whey/60g maltodextrin.  I am getting leaner but I always wonder about having that shake pre.....
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SteelePegasus

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2006, 06:11:30 AM »
Just to add more info..

although he is speaking about cardio first thing AM, I would think that he would apply the same theory to lifting weights first thing AM.

once again there is no consistant answer. Here is something that I that Lane said...


"Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.
"

I copied it from here
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=233400
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buffbodz

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2006, 08:48:11 AM »
actually, you burn more fat when glycogen is present. The two go together and create a synergistic effect. It nots like "uh oh, no glycogen, gotta find some fat". The fat burning process does not benefit from a lack of glycogen, more like the opposite. So from what I understand, there really is no point in doing cardio on an empty stomach (especially in BB, eat something will ya). And weightlifting on a empty stomach... well not exactly the most optimal thing to do.

Eating protein only as a meal is a complete waste btw. 18 out of 20 amino acids can be turned into glycogen and if there is no carbs present in your meal, the body much more prefer transforming the protein into glycogen.

Their are so many different theories on this it gets confusing.  Some say do cardio first thing on an empty stomach, others say fuel the body first to save muscle.  This article is pretty good but it seems that every day someone else publishes another article on burning fat and what should be in your stomach.  Bill Phillips preaches first thing with just water to burn fat, while others just the opposite.  I got my best fat loss when I would get up and run 3 miles with out anything but a cup of coffee.  So like I have said before.  It's a science, but not an exact science.  What works for one will not work for another and visa versa.
It's not necessarily "good" or "bad" to eat before practice or a game — it really depends on what and when you've eaten that day. Ideally you want to eat so you have energy, but you don't want to eat so that you feel too full and/or experience discomfort. It's a matter of balance. Research shows that eating before exercise, as opposed to exercising on an empty stomach, improves athletic performance. Generally, a snack taken before an activity will help fuel you for that practice or game (depending on how long the sport lasts), and also help you from becoming over hungry after the workout.

That being said, consider the following:

    * It usually takes our bodies about three or four hours to digest a moderate sized meal and about one or two hours to process a light snack (these numbers depend a lot on the type of food you're eating, not to mention your very own metabolic rate). It's a good idea to allow some time for digestion prior to any strenuous activity.
    * If you have practice or a game late in the afternoon, eat breakfast and lunch. Include plenty of complex carbohydrates, such as whole grain cereals, fruit, and vegetables. These replace muscle glycogen (our bodies' storage form of carbohydrates), and are important, especially if you exercise every day. Without replacing glycogen, your muscles will feel weak and performance may suffer.
    * Remember to keep well hydrated. Our muscles are approximately 70 percent water and dehydrated muscles perform poorly, too. Drink water throughout the day.
    * One meal or one snack isn't going to make up for a generally unhealthy lifestyle. Eating well helps contribute nutrients your body needs on a continual basis. Apply some of these suggestions regularly. Choose mostly whole grains, fruit, veggies, lean meats, and low-fat dairy. Drink plenty of fluids all the time — it's really important to replace losses from exercise. Don't go longer than 4 hours without eating, and plan healthy or energy boosting snacks in-between larger meals.

Snack ideas for pre-game or pre-practice:

    * fruit (e.g., bananas, oranges, apples, or grapes)
    * fruit juices
    * unsalted crackers
    * graham crackers
    * bagels
    * non- or low-fat yogurt
    * pretzels (preferably with little or no salt)
    * low-fat soup, such as vegetable

High in carbohydrates, these foods are quickly digested and absorbed. Finish eating at least one hour before your practice. Foods high in fat, protein, and fiber take longer to digest and may cause discomfort. Experiment with various options. And, NEVER try a new food before a competitive event... just in case.



http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/3644.html
6 meals lift heavy and 1/2 hr cardio

DK II

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Re: Spot Training (spot fat reducing)
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2006, 01:55:47 AM »
Just to add more info..

although he is speaking about cardio first thing AM, I would think that he would apply the same theory to lifting weights first thing AM.

once again there is no consistant answer. Here is something that I that Lane said...


"Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.
"

I copied it from here
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=233400


good post.