Where are the high intensity champions if HIT works?

[pumpster]

2. you're saying you got more experience than mentzer, one of the more experienced in bodybuilding history. that makes me an asshole? how the hell can you claim to have more experience than him? how can you claim him, his brother and a lot more people supporting his ideas and using them, for year and years, we're talking hundreds, if not thousands of people, would rest 7, 10 or even 14 days when they could've stuck with 2-3 days? to this question you have no answer.

I never said that, you are trying desperately to create this impression because you get off on being a troll.

Expand in great detail on your HIT training..

[Bluto]

I never said that, you are trying desperately to say this in lieu of content, because you get off on being a troll.

Expand in great detail on your HIT training..

"First of all, Mike didn't have way more experience than me,"

This is an actual quote.

Not only do you say that Mike doesn't have way more experience, you also claim that he was wrong in ordering his clients to more rest as the intensity went up, you claim that that extra rest was totally unecessary.

[pumpster]

"First of all, Mike didn't have way more experience than me,"

This is an actual quote.

Not only do you say that Mike doesn't have way more experience, you also claim that he was wrong in ordering his clients to more rest as the intensity went up, you claim that that extra rest was totally unecessary.

You're boring and have nothing of substance to contribute.

Still waiting for your detailed account of HIT training since you know so much about it..

[Bluto]

As for my experience of HIT I've told you. I've also told you why I don't think it's optimal. You on the other hand told NOONE about your training, your experience etc. all we know is this:

1. Pumpster is as experienced, or at least not far behind, Mike Mentzer. Possibly MORE experienced.
2. Pumpster works out with a Boxflex.

That's it.

[pumpster]

I want details of "Bluto's" HIT training..not "i don't think it's optimal" which by itself is as empty as all of his other posts.

[slaveboy1980]

The first serious discussion I've read on here (lol)

I myself have combined elements from all schools, being a high frequency of bodypart training, intensity and volume
I do a push-pull split 2 on-1 off, 1 compound movement per musclegroup per session, 3 sets to failure of which one for each fiber type (6-10, 3-5 and 10-15 reps)

Reason for this combination: I needed intensity to grow but not too much (so no negative failure etc, too taxing), I still needed SOME volume (this comes out to 9 sets per musclegroup every 8 days as you see) and I needed rest too ofcourse so 2 on 1 off was the way to go

lol well im a slut but sometimes cock inflamed and you have to use the other head instead:

as for freqeuncy..frequency cant be taken to the absurd. also (same as intensity).i know some people say workout a muscle 3 times a week with low volume and avoid failure. sure im against failure training most of the time too..but..if you try to use too high freqeuncy you will have to lower the volume per training session too much which isnt good either so i think you have to find a happy medium: high enough volume to break down muscle fibers and do it often enough..i personally think once a week training isnt optimal but i dont think one set of bench press per day mon to friday is good eitehr. hope you understand what i mean.

[Bluto]

You're boring and have nothing of substance to contribute.

You were caught lying since I got an actual quote. your comeback - im boring?

that's too bad, i thought we had a pretty interesting discussion going here for a number of pages, it's just too bad you cant give credit and have to resort to namecalling, troll-calling etc whenever you feel your losing an argument.

[Bluto]

I want details of "Bluto's" HIT training..not "i don't think it's optimal" which by itself is as empty as all of his other posts.

no problem, what is it you wanna know? unlike you i have no problem sharing my experience. or answering questions.

[pumpster]

Go into detail..for how long, how many sets, results..

[slaveboy1980]

Go into detail..no need for me to spell it out.

guys come on drop the prestige shit..lets go back to discussing training theory. its not about winning the argument its about bringing opinions to the table.

[pumpster]

guys come on drop the prestige shit..lets go back to discussing training theory. its not about winning the argument its about bringing opinions to the table.

What planet are you from? I'm asking him for training specifics. DUH!

[slaveboy1980]

What planet are you from? I'm asking him for training specifics. DUH!

well you havent explained your personal experience more than he has..he has tried high intensity and told you what he thought and you told us about you training to failure using both high and medium and low volume. (but not non failure) 

[Bluto]

What planet are you from? I'm asking him for training specifics. DUH!

and why do you do that? ive explained why volume would work better. both in theory and my personal experience, and by monitoring others. at the end of the day 99% doesnt train HIT. so it's really the hit-fans that need to show support for their methods, not the other way around.

[slaveboy1980]

to summarize:

dont go to failure.

[Bluto]

http://www.drweitz.com/scientific/hit.htm

 

[slaveboy1980]

bluto: what do you think about freqeuncy...i think that once a week is probably not optimal but some guys are taking high frequency too far and wanan do 2 sets of bench press per week 4 days aweek. in my opinion that is taking it to far if your a bodybuilder yuo should have enough volume per training session but not so much that you gotta wait 10 days before training it again. id say working a muscle 2 times aweek with some volume would be good advice to most people. (no failure)

if you wanna keep it simple you can do once a week (per muscle group) but you gotta increase the volume then and really pump the muscle

[Vince B]

Slaveboy is quite something. He admonishes me about being a know it all and then pontificates about training like he is a bona fide expert.

The debate between Slaveboy and Pumpster is going nowhere because the terms used are not defined or they might have different meanings. If we reduce this discussion to time under tension then we might be able to come to some agreement about how much tension is required. Intensity is a word that should be discarded when discussing training. It is almost meaningless in most gyms. How much resistance is needed and for how long and then when is it optimal to retrain that muscle? The basics are quite simple yet look at the heated discussions that occur on these boards.

What exactly does training to failure mean? I rather doubt that Jones was right about this requirement but it seemed logical. It appears that just because a theory seems to make sense is no guarantee that it is true.

Let me demonstrate something. Some guys train so 'hard' that they recruit spotters to assist them lift a weight. If this was a requirement of getting huge then no one would be able to get really big without a spotter. That is plainly absurd so it follows that spotters are not necessary. I think this business of training to failure is also probably mistaken. What is required is that the target muscles be stimulated to grow. Whatever is sufficient to stimulate the muscles is adequate. I doubt absolute failure is necessary but it could well be sufficient. Experience suggests that one set will not keep a muscle growing ever bigger. That is a pipedream and a mighty dangerous one, too.

We also have to consider safety when choosing training methods. Some extreme methods are too dangerous because they can lead to muscle tears, etc. I suspect that HIT is probably dangerous for advanced trainees and that is probably why most have discarded such a method.

[slaveboy1980]

Slaveboy is quite something. He admonishes me about being a know it all and then pontificates about training like he is a bona fide expert.

The debate between Slaveboy and Pumpster is going nowhere because the terms used are not defined or they might have different meanings. If we reduce this discussion to time under tension then we might be able to come to some agreement about how much tension is required. Intensity is a word that should be discarded when discussing training. It is almost meaningless in most gyms. How much resistance is needed and for how long and then when is it optimal to retrain that muscle? The basics are quite simple yet look at the heated discussions that occur on these boards.

What exactly does training to failure mean? I rather doubt that Jones was right about this requirement but it seemed logical. It appears that just because a theory seems to make sense is no guarantee that it is true.

Let me demonstrate something. Some guys train so 'hard' that they recruit spotters to assist them lift a weight. If this was a requirement of getting huge then no one would be able to get really big without a spotter. That is plainly absurd so it follows that spotters are not necessary. I think this business of training to failure is also probably mistaken. What is required is that the target muscles be stimulated to grow. Whatever is sufficient to stimulate the muscles is adequate. I doubt absolute failure is necessary but it could well be sufficient. Experience suggests that one set will not keep a muscle growing ever bigger. That is a pipedream and a mighty dangerous one, too.

We also have to consider safety when choosing training methods. Some extreme methods are too dangerous because they can lead to muscle tears, etc. I suspect that HIT is probably dangerous for advanced trainees and that is probably why most have discarded such a method.

bla bla bla..write something that we dont know already. we had some tangible ideas atleast.you just write alot of crap that doesnt mean anything i think you would love kafka. and i never claimed i know everything as you can always learn new things. but you just go on and on..give us some practical advice. and please try not to write an essay.

[Bluto]

bluto: what do you think about freqeuncy...i think that once a week is probably not optimal but some guys are taking high frequency too far and wanan do 2 sets of bench press per week 4 days aweek. in my opinion that is taking it to far if your a bodybuilder yuo should have enough volume per training session but not so much that you gotta wait 10 days before training it again. id say working a muscle 2 times aweek with some volume would be good advice to most people. (no failure)

if you wanna keep it simple you can do once a week (per muscle group) but you gotta increase the volume then and really pump the muscle

yup you could also do variations, like if you do benchpresses twice a week you could do once with low reps, more sets. and once with fewer sets and higher reps.

[Moen]

lol well im a slut but sometimes cock inflamed and you have to use the other head instead:

as for freqeuncy..frequency cant be taken to the absurd. also (same as intensity).i know some people say workout a muscle 3 times a week with low volume and avoid failure. sure im against failure training most of the time too..but..if you try to use too high freqeuncy you will have to lower the volume per training session too much which isnt good either so i think you have to find a happy medium: high enough volume to break down muscle fibers and do it often enough..i personally think once a week training isnt optimal but i dont think one set of bench press per day mon to friday is good eitehr. hope you understand what i mean.

Ofcourse, that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish too 

[Bluto]

ive touched on the subject before that going to failure means the risk of injury increases:

"In a recent review Stone et al. (1998) noted that training to failure produces considerable fatigue. Fatigue increases the risk of injury, probably through changes in movement patterns. Additionally, the work of Nimmons et al. (1995) suggests that training to failure and beyond (e.g., forced reps) on a consistent basis can lead to overtraining."

[alexxx]

Calves must be contracted as well as hams so their not always there.

Do you currently train with Arnolds system, if so have you noticed your muscles coming alive when you contract them?

Law

My muscles always come alive when I train them. Even if it is one set. I have that mind muscle connection that most people do not. I also built my base training Arnold style and am getting back into his system as we speak.

[natural al]

ive touched on the subject before that going to failure means the risk of injury increases:

"In a recent review Stone et al. (1998) noted that training to failure produces considerable fatigue. Fatigue increases the risk of injury, probably through changes in movement patterns. Additionally, the work of Nimmons et al. (1995) suggests that training to failure and beyond (e.g., forced reps) on a consistent basis can lead to overtraining."

ummm.....that's why you rest more if you're doing any type of HIT training, higher intesity=lower volume, more rest, more time to recover.  If anyone is stupid enough to train using any of the accepted HIT protocols, like max-ot, BFT, DC or even pure HIT as perscribed by Arthur Jones and don't be mindfull of recovery then of course you're gong to overtrain and get hurt.

There are tons of studies that support HIT and tons of studies that denounce it, depends where you look and who did the studies.  If we're talking practical experience than that's one thing but if we turn this into who can post more studies to back our side than this thread will become a train wreck.  Not saying that's what you did I'd just hate to see it turn into that.

[bmacsys]

Yes, HIT is crazy. The work involved could really stress some guys out. This type of training is not for everyone.

I've always wondered what it is required of a person's personality to be able to train this way. hmm

Figgs, I have been a fan of Mentzer and his ideas about training since I started lifting in my friend Gaetano's basement in his house in Brooklyn in 1978.

[The Squadfather]

Figgs, I have been a fan of Mentzer and his ideas about training since I started lifting in my friend Gaetano's basement in his house in Brooklyn in 1978.

did you ever train at that gym that Ferrigno trained at in Pumping Iron, bmacys?