Author Topic: Muscle Soreness  (Read 2500 times)

GoneAway

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Muscle Soreness
« on: January 07, 2007, 12:24:26 AM »
I just saw on the TV that muscle soreness isn't due to your muscles being torn (microtears), but due to the lactic acid built up from working out and not getting rid of it after the workout (obviously).

I can believe this, but is there any proof either way of what causes muscle soreness?

D-bol

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2007, 03:03:41 AM »
its lactic acid bro...its a well known fact...thats why certain items like creatine and detox vitamins help muscle recovery by reducing lactic acid buildup

Princess L

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2007, 03:13:10 PM »
its lactic acid bro...its a well known fact...

There are many theories, although the precise cause of DOMS is still unknown.  However, lactic acid is definitely NOT one of them.
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GoneAway

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2007, 07:12:52 PM »
There are many theories, although the precise cause of DOMS is still unknown.  However, lactic acid is definitely NOT one of them.

That's why I came here to check. :)

D-bol

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 09:42:54 PM »
There are many theories, although the precise cause of DOMS is still unknown.  However, lactic acid is definitely NOT one of them.

whatever

u want to read theories or you wont to optimize your training?

Princess L

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 12:52:53 PM »
DOMS is not due to lactic acid. This was proven at least a decade ago.

Anytime you do a new movement, you cause microdamage, which causes inflammation, which releases inflammatory factors, which stimulates pain receptors and you get DOMS.


whatever

Good argument tho.
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pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 12:59:34 PM »
I just saw on the TV that muscle soreness isn't due to your muscles being torn (microtears), but due to the lactic acid built up from working out and not getting rid of it after the workout (obviously).

I can believe this, but is there any proof either way of what causes muscle soreness?
Microtears is the most convincing argument. Lactic acid's a convincing explanation for the burn that happens during exercise.

More important is the question of whether DOMS during conventional weight training is significant. Again nothing conclusive; intuitively i think it matters, is beneficial to to have it as frequently as possible.

Princess L

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 01:07:50 PM »
Lactic acid's a convincing explanation for the burn that happens during exercise.

I don't think that is ever argued  :-\
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pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 01:35:10 PM »

I don't think that is ever argued  :-\


Right!  ::)

D-bol

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 06:07:35 AM »
DOMS is not due to lactic acid. This was proven at least a decade ago.

Anytime you do a new movement, you cause microdamage, which causes inflammation, which releases inflammatory factors, which stimulates pain receptors and you get DOMS.


Good argument tho.

]

the mircodamage generates lactic acid buildup...

Tapeworm

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 06:19:39 AM »
Heavy cardio will produce lactic acid too, but I've never had DOMS from it.

GoneAway

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 06:41:20 AM »
DOMS is not due to lactic acid. This was proven at least a decade ago.

Anytime you do a new movement, you cause microdamage, which causes inflammation, which releases inflammatory factors, which stimulates pain receptors and you get DOMS.

So, this is why I get when I come back from a break in training. But it doesn't explain why some people get it after every workout.

Princess L

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 08:34:18 PM »
So, this is why I get when I come back from a break in training. But it doesn't explain why some people get it after every workout.

...volume, frequency, adaptation...
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Princess L

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 08:40:41 PM »
Physiology 101

The expression "lactic acid" is used most commonly by athletes to describe the intense pain felt during exhaustive exercise, especially in events like the 400 metres and 800 metres. When energy is required to perform exercise it is supplied from the breakdown of Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP). The body has a limited store of about 85 grms of ATP and would use it up very quickly if we did not have ways of resynthesising it. There are three systems that produce energy to resynthesise ATP: ATP-PC, lactic acid and aerobic.
The lactic acid system is capable of releasing energy to resynthesise ATP without the involvement of oxygen and is called anaerobic glycolysis. Glycolysis (breakdown of carbohydrates) results in the formation of pyruvic acid and hydrogen ions (H+). A build up of H+ will make the muscle cells acidic and interfere with their operation so carrier molecules, called nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+), remove the H+. The NAD+ is reduced to NADH which deposit the H+ at the electron transport gate (ETC) in the mitrochondria to be combined with oxygen to form water (H2O).
If there is insufficient oxygen then NADH cannot release the H+ and they build up in the cell. To prevent the rise in acidity pyruvic acid accepts H+ forming lactic acid which then dissociates into lactate and H+. Some of the lactate diffuses into the blood stream and takes some H+ with it as a way of reducing the H+ concentration in the muscle cell. The normal pH of the muscle cell is 7.1 but if the build up of H+ continues and pH is reduced to around 6.5 then muscle contraction may be impaired and the low pH will stimulate the free nerve endings in the muscle resulting in the perception of pain (the burn). This point is often measured as the lactic threshold or anaerobic threshold or onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA).
The process of lactic acid removal takes approx. one hour, but this can be accelerated by undertaking an appropriate warm down which ensures a rapid and continuous supply of oxygen to the muscles.
The normal amount of lactic acid circulating in the blood is about 1 to 2 millimoles/litre of blood. The onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA) occurs between 2 and 4 millimoles/litre of blood. In non athletes this point is about 50% to 60% VO2 max and in trained athletes around 70% to 80% VO2 max.

Lactic acid (lactate) is not:
•   responsible for the burn in the leg muscles when exercising very fast
•   responsible for the soreness you experience in the 48 hours following a hard session
•   a waste product


Lactate, which is produced by the body all day long, is resynthesized by the liver (Cori Cycle) to form glucose which provides you with more energy. Sounds like a friend to me.
Lactate Shuttle
The lactate shuttle involves the following series of events:
•   As we exercise pyruvate is formed
•   When insufficient oxygen is available to breakdown the pyruvate then lactate is produced
•   Lactate enters the surrounding muscle cells, tissue and blood
•   The muscle cells and tissues receiving the lactate either breakdown the lactate to fuel (ATP) for immediate use or use it in the creation of glycogen
•   The glycogen then remains in the cells until energy is required
65% of lactic acid is converted to carbon dioxide and water, 20% into glycogen, 10% into protein and 5% into glucose

Read more here:

Essentials of Exercise Physiology (2nd Edition) - W.D. McArdle et al - page 108
Principals of Anatomy and Physiology (6th Edition) - G. J. Tortora & N. P. Anagnostakos - page 241
Disposal of Lactate during and after Strenuous Exercise in Humans, Journal of Applied Physiology, Vol 61(1), pp338-343, 1986
http://www.physorg.com/news64680736.html
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big L dawg

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 05:57:16 AM »
So, this is why I get when I come back from a break in training. But it doesn't explain why some people get it after every workout.



      if im not sore the next day after a workout then I'm not happy.those people who only get sore after a layoff but aren't sore on a normal basis after that just don't push themselves hard enough.
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pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 07:41:06 AM »


      if im not sore the next day after a workout then I'm not happy.those people who only get sore after a layoff but aren't sore on a normal basis after that just don't push themselves hard enough.

Agreed, it's something to try for. No proof yet whether it matters but intuitively it makes sense to me plus if you want to cover all bases in the absence of conclusive proof it's playing the odds.

slaveboy1980

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2007, 08:47:54 AM »
you dont need to be sore to grow

if you work a muscle with high frequency soreness will be gone in a couple of weeks

pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2007, 09:05:45 AM »
you dont need to be sore to grow

if you work a muscle with high frequency soreness will be gone in a couple of weeks

Even with high frequency there are ways to sustain some degree of soreness, takes a little more thought though.

As far as not needing it, bottom line since all of this is speculation either way (1) if you want to cover all bases try to get sore because it might matter, and (2) intuitively it does matter, IMO.

slaveboy1980

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2007, 09:30:36 AM »
Even with high frequency there are ways to sustain some degree of soreness, takes a little more thought though.

As far as not needing it, bottom line since all of this is speculation either way (1) if you want to cover all bases try to get sore because it might matter, and (2) intuitively it does matter, IMO.

hmm..with high frequency training you will not get as sore...just first few sessions  and you just have to work thru the soreness then it will be pretty much gone...

also im not advocating you to train so that you get sore when doing high frequency training...it shouldnt be a goal at all. just as failure isnt needed to grow..soreness isnt needed either. but of course if you do something completely new that the body isnt used to soreness will be there.

pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2007, 09:37:04 AM »
Nope; i use high frequency training and can still manage to get sore at least some of the time even months or years later. As i said it takes a little more thought & nuance to do it but it's definitely possible.

That's completely aside from using periodization to shock the muscles, which you've completely discounted, apparently. ;D

big L dawg

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 10:51:40 AM »
i agree with pumpster totally. iv been lifting for 15 years now. Im 30 years old so half my life,and im sore almost every day.personaly i love it.
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pumpster

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 11:44:44 AM »
just as failure isnt needed to grow..soreness isnt needed either. but of course if you do something completely new that the body isnt used to soreness will be there.

Completely disagree with the flawed premise that failure's unnecessary, as if doing what you can already do is gonna help! The no-failure crowd's what Coleman correctly refers to as "the lazys" AKA it's too hard!  :'(

big L dawg

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »
no doubt.some guys are trying to build a great physic but there scared to get sore?or push themselves to failure?those are the same ones that look in the mirror year in and year out and still look the same.
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slaveboy1980

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2007, 06:35:08 AM »
Nope; i use high frequency training and can still manage to get sore at least some of the time even months or years later. As i said it takes a little more thought & nuance to do it but it's definitely possible.

That's completely aside from using periodization to shock the muscles, which you've completely discounted, apparently. ;D


well its because your looking to get sore, which i find unnecessary. periodization i use myself so i havent discounted that.

slaveboy1980

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Re: Muscle Soreness
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 06:36:08 AM »
i agree with pumpster totally. iv been lifting for 15 years now. Im 30 years old so half my life,and im sore almost every day.personaly i love it.

sure you love it..but question is if its necessary...which it isnt..as alot of people grow without being sore, me included.