Conspiracy theory - Iraq and China

[Tapeworm]

Premise 1 - The war in Iraq is for oil.  Human rights and WMD are the excuses.
Premise 2 - Iraq is a foothold in the Middle East, and the "surge" is a prelude to an invasion of Iran with a view to permanent control of the oil in the Middle East, whether by military presence or puppet governments.
Premise 3 - China is a nearly unstoppable force economically, and no one will fk with them militarily.  They are already powerful enough to write their own rules, such as their human rights policies which everyone quite willingly ignores, and they are growing rapidly.

Conclusion - The war in the sand is a preemptive move to stop China ruling the planet in 20 years time.

Oil is THE  resource to control.  Everything hinges on it.  I can't think of a better way to moderate China's frightening growth.

Comments on my sanity or other views?

[Hugo Chavez]

Not insane, a lot of people put forth this same idea. 

[240 is Back]

I think you're pretty close to nailing it.  Remember Russia, China, and S. America as the players and read on.

Remember when the US gave money/intel/weapons/training to the mujahadeen (al quida) to fight the russians in Afghanistan in the 80s?  (We couldn't fight them head on or it would be WWIII).  If Russia got that Afghan/Iraq/Iran pipeline path, they have $8T worth of oil that we don't, and they don't financially collapse like they did.

Late 80s/90s.  Stall.  We help iraq fight iran, then attack iraq, to stall that oil.  Russia has collapsed but China is growing population and work force faster than we predicted.

July 2001.  We can no longer stall for that black gold hat trick (3 nations in a row).  Afghanistan rejects us and accepts oil pipeline deal from an argentinian firm.  Do we want Hugo Chavez' little conglomerate of nations having their oil, startegic position, AND middle east oil?  no sir.

9/11 happens conveniently and we have a reason to invade afghans, toss out the taleban nullifying that Argentinan oil deal.  Well, we're there already.  Might as well take iraq and iran. It's now or never, as US population and UN ain't gonna tolerate this shit more than once.

By 2008 we'll have taken down afghan, iraq, and iran, and maybe syria.  We will have long term presence in the region - forever - which means the new puppet govts don't make deals which could compromise security.  This coincidentally means no oil bids from RUS, CHI, or S. America.


Is it best for the Americans?  yes.  I used to hate on it but I understand it now.  it's how it has to be.  China is going to be a beast to fck with.  Is N Korea shooting missiles and lighting nukes (proxy china!) in hopes we'll move there, and won't accomplish the goals of iran/syria? maybe.

If we don't do it, China DEFINITELY finds "WMD" in iraq and iran in a few years.  Sucks, but if we want to continue our standard of living, it is the way it has to be (this coming from a former anti-war guy who finally understands the global implications of what we're doing)

[BRUCE]

Premise 1 - The war in Iraq is for oil.  Human rights and WMD are the excuses.
Premise 2 - Iraq is a foothold in the Middle East, and the "surge" is a prelude to an invasion of Iran with a view to permanent control of the oil in the Middle East, whether by military presence or puppet governments.
Premise 3 - China is a nearly unstoppable force economically, and no one will fk with them militarily.  They are already powerful enough to write their own rules, such as their human rights policies which everyone quite willingly ignores, and they are growing rapidly.

Conclusion - The war in the sand is a preemptive move to stop China ruling the planet in 20 years time.

Oil is THE  resource to control.  Everything hinges on it.  I can't think of a better way to moderate China's frightening growth.

Comments on my sanity or other views?

Your theory falls at the first hurdle, if we wanted Saddam's oil we could have just bought it; he was selling it cheap.  Let's not have any more oil theories until someone can overcome this major obstacle.

[headhuntersix]

I agree except...militarily. They have made great strides in some areas. They are behind in some area's. The are trying to build a larger blue water navy. They are trying to become a force in cyber warfare. Chine does not wanta war. We are content to allow hegemony over asia as long as we hav inrounds into thier markets. There will be a Walmart on every corner. No need to go to war if they have smily faced bags, micky d's and starbucks. Hard to fire an AK with a coffee in ur hand.

[240 is Back]

Also, the next time someone says we're in Iraq "to liberate the iraqis", tell them what a dumb cnut they are.

WMD was a lie, period.  But, people understand mushroom clouds, where they certainly do not understand dueling superpower imperialisms and globalization.  

[headhuntersix]

I'm proud of 240..he's coming full circle. If u look at the big picture now and then look at history, it all jives. We have done this before and we will be forced to do it again. We could care less agout the Iraqi people on a strategic level..the oil must flow. On a lower level, we have to try to win heats and minds to achiev the strategic victory. So the average joe in iraq will say, yeah we're here to help the Iraqi people.

[240 is Back]

I agree except...militarily. They have made great strides in some areas. They are behind in some area's. The are trying to build a larger blue water navy. They are trying to become a force in cyber warfare. Chine does not wanta war. We are content to allow hegemony over asia as long as we hav inrounds into thier markets. There will be a Walmart on every corner. No need to go to war if they have smily faced bags, micky d's and starbucks. Hard to fire an AK with a coffee in ur hand.

They can still be pissing on the streets and floating their female children down rivers, but if their Govt is capable of:

1) dropping US defense and comm satellites out of ths sky at will,

2) outsourcing war (how hard would it be for the Chinese to rent a very broke and very motivated N Korean army to storm S Korea and keep us busy for 2 years?)

3) making deals (china gets in bed with Hugo, RUS, or both... yikes)

IMO, China is the elephant in the room - we're not talking about them but they are a billion people who do what they're told.  Scary.

[Tapeworm]

Your theory falls at the first hurdle, if we wanted Saddam's oil we could have just bought it; he was selling it cheap.  Let's not have any more oil theories until someone can overcome this major obstacle.

Viewing the Middle East as an oil shop where anyone with money can come in and buy oil seems a little naive Bruce.  Oil is the highest ground - control it and you have influence on everything.  Sooner or later a bully is going to take up residence and dictate the terms of distribution.  

Seems to me that China is well on it's way to being the bully no one will argue with.  I think the US saw this coming and saw they had to take action.  240... good post.  You had the CIA at your door yet?

[BRUCE]

Viewing the Middle East as an oil shop where anyone with money can come in and buy oil seems a little naive Bruce.  Oil is the highest ground - control it and you have influence on everything.  Sooner or later a bully is going to take up residence and dictate the terms of distribution.  

Seems to me that China is well on it's way to being the bully no one will argue with.  I think the US saw this coming and saw they had to take action.  240... good post.  You had the CIA at your door yet?

So, do you dispute that America could have easily purchased oil from Saddam, or not?  If so, can you explain how buying Saddams oil would have been more difficult than taking it via force?

[240 is Back]

Viewing the Middle East as an oil shop where anyone with money can come in and buy oil seems a little naive Bruce.  Oil is the highest ground - control it and you have influence on everything.  Sooner or later a bully is going to take up residence and dictate the terms of distribution.  

Seems to me that China is well on it's way to being the bully no one will argue with.  I think the US saw this coming and saw they had to take action.  240... good post.  You had the CIA at your door yet?

LOL!  No, it's stil legal to post.  First amendment and all.  Although - they're working on legislation now to require anyone who posts for 250 or more readers to register as a lobbyist.  And if the CIA did come to me door, they'd probably have a job application for a talented guy like me.  

I think this period will be looked back on with smiles.  The forums/blogs have allowed people to see thru the lies of the past ten years.  They don't want this.  Making it so that people can be sued/fined for posts will limit it big time.  



Bruce, Pres. bush said in December that part of the reason we had to invade Iraq was to prevent them from refusing to sell us their oil and hurting us economically.  Remember that speech in the Rose garden?  It took many by surprise as the first real admission that the ability to buy oil weighed into the decision to wage war.

[240 is Back]

So, do you dispute that America could have easily purchased oil from Saddam, or not?  If so, can you explain how buying Saddams oil would have been more difficult than taking it via force?

Dude, i'm almost embarassed to have to explain this to ya 

It has cost $400 billion to gain control of $8 trillion of oil.  Dat be a good deal.

Bush admitted part of war motivation was to keep Sadaam from refusing to sell to us.

[headhuntersix]

240 ur looking at th big picture as far as this war..look at the big picture as far as what we're doing againt China. Alot of what we're doing is to keep th Chinese off balance. They are not happy with an America full of combat experienced soldiers. They have had little if no combat in the last 20 years. Besides the Chinese can accomplish all their goals peacefully. They are very patient. Why risk glowing if they an wait 5-10 years and get what they want anyway. We feel the same way. If India can work as a massive democracy then China can as well. The Chinese were forced to adopt, economic free zones and western business practices to survive. Its proven very sucessful and will continue to as well.  We will soon see Chinese cars on our roads. It will take them far less time to be excepted here and thus the product will get better quicker then it took the Japs. Th more economic ties we have the better.

 We're ready for N. korea. time is on our side there. As long as the old generals die off we'll be ok. The more folks who die off, that remember the 1951 war, the better for us.

[Tapeworm]

Bruce-
I don't pretend to know the ins 'n outs of whether oil is for sale to anyone with money, but it seems reasonable that there are deals being made about oil distribution (like 240's Chavez-Afgan deal, which I didn't know about) which will be to the benefit of some and to the detriment of others.  Being a "presence" in the region is a lot more likely to get you your oil than just turning up with money.

I'm really frightened of China, Bruce!  Hell, Blundstone is moving there now!  In ten or twenty years they will be so powerful... I don't like to think about it.  So ya, I agree that oil was easily for sale to the US (at least I hadn't heard of any lack of oil issues in the US), but the Bush government believed - perhaps rightly, given China's growing power - that it might not always be so.  They chose to solidify their access to oil before availability became an issue.  By then it would have been too late.

Or maybe the US would never have any problems getting oil.  The whole thing could be about limiting China's access to it and crippling their growth.  If the war in Iraq wasn't going on, the #1 issue on the world's mind would be China's growth.  240 - I dig your North Korean theory.

And yes, I'm just speculating here.  I don't have any evidence at all - it's just a conspiracy theory, but I wanted to hear your views.

[Tapeworm]

240-
Doesn't Hugo Chavez's kid post on GetBig?  His signiture is "Long Live Chavez" or something.  Love to get his views on this.

[sandycoosworth]

Premise 1 - The war in Iraq is for oil.  Human rights and WMD are the excuses.
Premise 2 - Iraq is a foothold in the Middle East, and the "surge" is a prelude to an invasion of Iran with a view to permanent control of the oil in the Middle East, whether by military presence or puppet governments.
Premise 3 - China is a nearly unstoppable force economically, and no one will fk with them militarily.  They are already powerful enough to write their own rules, such as their human rights policies which everyone quite willingly ignores, and they are growing rapidly.

Conclusion - The war in the sand is a preemptive move to stop China ruling the planet in 20 years time.

Oil is THE  resource to control.  Everything hinges on it.  I can't think of a better way to moderate China's frightening growth.

Comments on my sanity or other views?

ive been saying this for over 6 months to no avail

kill 3000k in 911 now to avoid 100's of millions dying under chinese rule later on

.

the fact it gets all the people involved rich as fuck doesnt hurt eitehr

[240 is Back]

ive been saying this for over 6 months to no avail

kill 3000k in 911 now to avoid 100's of millions dying under chinese rule later on
.
the fact it gets all the people involved rich as f**k doesnt hurt eitehr

I used to just think eating yellow snow in canada all those years was fking with your mind.

but now i see you were right all along.



ok, hypothetical.  Suppose Bush had gotten on TV on Sept 1st and said "Okay, we want to do these things, here is why, and I want your permission".  What would Americans have said?

[sandycoosworth]

amreekans may have said "yippy kiya" but the rest of the world would be all "thatth not very nithe"

[bmacsys]

Premise 1 - The war in Iraq is for oil.  Human rights and WMD are the excuses.
Premise 2 - Iraq is a foothold in the Middle East, and the "surge" is a prelude to an invasion of Iran with a view to permanent control of the oil in the Middle East, whether by military presence or puppet governments.
Premise 3 - China is a nearly unstoppable force economically, and no one will fk with them militarily.  They are already powerful enough to write their own rules, such as their human rights policies which everyone quite willingly ignores, and they are growing rapidly.

Conclusion - The war in the sand is a preemptive move to stop China ruling the planet in 20 years time.

Oil is THE  resource to control.  Everything hinges on it.  I can't think of a better way to moderate China's frightening growth.

Comments on my sanity or other views?

Ever read Janes Defence weekly? The Chinese now or in the future are so far behind us in so many areas. High tech weapons. Communications. They still rely on WWII vintage artillery, tanks etc.. Most of there soldiers are poorly trained. Our Navy and Airforce are light years ahead. They have no long range bombers, aircraft carriers etc.. They have no jet fighters or pilots on par with us. Their nuclear weapons are very crude compared to ours. Their submarine force is weak. etc...

[240 is Back]

Ever read Janes Defence weekly? The Chinese now or in the future are so far behind us in so many areas. High tech weapons. Communications. They still rely on WWII vintage artillery, tanks etc.. Most of there soldiers are poorly trained. Our Navy and Airforce are light years ahead. They have no long range bombers, aircraft carriers etc.. They have no jet fighters or pilots on par with us. Their nuclear weapons are very crude compared to ours. Their submarine force is weak. etc...

They took down a satelite last week.  They have a billion people.  Their nextdoor neighbor is broke and hates us.  They rule their people with an iron fist.

I wouldn't exactly rule them out of anything.  If they can take down one satellite, they can take down ten and cripple our national defense. 

And their military is actually pretty state of the art:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/index.html

[bmacsys]

They took down a satelite last week.  They have a billion people.  Their nextdoor neighbor is broke and hates us.  They rule their people with an iron fist.

I wouldn't exactly rule them out of anything.  If they can take down one satellite, they can take down ten and cripple our national defense. 

And their military is actually pretty state of the art:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/index.html

Come on 240. They took down one of their own satellites. Don't you think whatever they can do to us the DOD has taken into account? Don't you think we can reply in ways that would be much more efective? I think so. There military is state of the art compared to third world countries. They don't come anywhere near stacking up to us. They are woefully inadequate in lots of important areas. Maybe in 20 or 30 years they could catch up. Building a blue water navy and building an airfore takes two or three decades of intense and incredibly expensive work.

[240 is Back]

dude, look at their weaponry.  they're state of the art.  the people live in squalor, sure.  but their govt is slowly but surely positioining themselves well, with very favorable import/labor agreements, and securement of US property.

Some of the most dangerous governments in the world have a populace which is slow, lazy, weak, and unaware of what their leaders are doing in their own best interests. 

[JOHN MATRIX]

our only chance is to get India on our side, so we can use their masses against china's masses

[240 is Back]

our only chance is to get India on our side, so we can use their masses against china's masses

Or take away all the oil in the region so that millions starve in both countries!

[Camel Jockey]

So, do you dispute that America could have easily purchased oil from Saddam, or not?  If so, can you explain how buying Saddams oil would have been more difficult than taking it via force?

Taking it via force gives us long-term control of the world's most sought after resource. It also helps us to control the growth of India and China.