Author Topic: DISGUSTED: Bodybuilding Guru?  (Read 59522 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #350 on: January 29, 2007, 05:23:41 PM »
Low-carb diets get thermodynamic defence
Biochemists argue that food calories are not all equal.
by Helen Pearson
news@nature.com

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The fiery debate over the worth of low-carb regimes is being fuelled by two US researchers. They are using the laws of thermodynamics to argue that calories from protein are better for losing weight than those from carbohydrates.

The idea that eating a diet rich in protein will help you shed more pounds than one stuffed with carbs is driving a vast diet industry. But many nutritionists dispute this view, saying that a calorie is a calorie regardless of where it comes from. Formally, a calorie is the amount of energy needed to heat one kilogram of water by 1ºC.

Now Richard Feinman of the State University of New York and Eugene Fine of Jacobi Medical Center in New York are turning to physics to assert that calories differ. They use the laws of thermodynamics: fundamental rules that describe how heat, work and energy change in a system.

The first law of thermodynamics says that energy is always conserved. In slimming terms, this means that protein, fat and carbohydrate calories are equivalent because none of their energy is magically destroyed when you eat them. Feinman and Fine are not arguing with this idea.

“To say a calorie is a calorie all the time is false.”
Richard Feinman


State University of New York
But the second law of thermodynamics says that energy spontaneously disperses if it is not hindered. Feinman and Fine point out that protein and carbohydrate are metabolized in different ways and their energy is therefore dispersed in different forms. When protein is broken down by the body, for example, more energy is released as heat than is converted into chemical energy.
The upshot of their argument is that, while a hunk of steak and a slice of bread may carry equal calories, the amount of energy the body actually gleans from them, to fuel movement or store as fat, is different. "To say a calorie is a calorie all the time is false," says Feinman.

Energy burn
“The epidemic of obesity isn't a small biochemical defect," he says, "it's large portions of food eaten by inactive people.”
George Bray


Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge
The theoretical argument has some experimental support. In 2002, Arne Astrup of Denmark's Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, and his team put 12 men in a room and measured precisely how much energy each burned when fed different diets. Those on a regimen rich in pork protein burned 4% more energy than those on a higher carbohydrate diet, the team found, because they lost more energy as heat. So Astrup says he agrees with Feinman "to some extent".
But when it comes to dieting, Astrup and other experts say that Feinman is missing the point. Even if protein and carbohydrate are processed differently in the body, what really matters is whether low-carb diets actually help people lose more weight than other eating plans.

In this regard, studies are scant and conflicting. Some of the best evidence comes from two trials published in the New England Journal of Medicine in May 2003, which showed that those on a low-carb, high-protein diet shed around three times as much weight as those on a low-fat diet after six months. However, the difference was minimal after a year,.

The main reason that some people shed extra weight on a low-carb diet is because they eat fewer calories overall, experts say, probably because protein makes them feel more full. They may also stick to the diet more rigidly or for a longer time.

Compared with these factors, any differences in the way the different foods are metabolized are negligible, argues George Bray, an authority on obesity at Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge. "The epidemic of obesity isn't due to a small biochemical defect," he says, "it's due to large portions of food eaten by inactive people."

Food science and nutrition researcher Donald Layman of Illinois State University in Urbana-Champaign argues that different diets suit different people. Eventually, decisions about which regime is most appropriate will be based on a range of health factors, such as risk of heart disease or diabetes. "That to me is where nutrition is going," Layman says.


1 Feinman R. D. & Fine E. J. Nutrition Journal 3, 9. (2004).
2 Mikkelsen P. B., Toubro S. & Astrup A. A. Am J Clin Nutr, 72. 1135 - 1141 (2000).
3 Samaha F. F, et al. N Engl J Med, 348. 2074 - 2081 (2003).
4 Foster G. D., et al. N Engl J Med l, 348. 2082 - 2090 (2003).

troponin

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #351 on: January 29, 2007, 05:24:37 PM »
The problem with trying to use Feinman`s study is that he has an agenda.

His brother markets a well known Low-Carb diet.

I don't know who Feinman is. 
I don't follow low carb diets. 

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Stavios

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #352 on: January 29, 2007, 05:24:52 PM »
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AA

Adonis telling one of the most knowledeable guy in the country about training and nutrition that he needs to need to "educate himself a bit further"

damn it that was priceless  ;D

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #353 on: January 29, 2007, 05:25:43 PM »
Also, what TROPONIN is failing to see is that IN A CALORIC DEFECIT ALL PROTEIN,CARBOHYDRATES and FAT will be used.


IT WOULD MATTER NOT anyways since the goal of a Caloric Defecit is to pull from stored fat, stored potential kinetic energy.

I am trying to be simplistic so all understand.

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #354 on: January 29, 2007, 05:26:49 PM »
I don't know who Feinman is. 
I don't follow low carb diets. 



He is the one who authored the study that is getting butchered.

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #355 on: January 29, 2007, 05:27:24 PM »
Also, what TROPONIN is failing to see is that IN A CALORIC DEFECIT ALL PROTEIN,CARBOHYDRATES and FAT will be used.


IT WOULD MATTER NOT anyways since the goal of a Caloric Defecit is to pull from stored fat, stored potential kinetic energy.

I am trying to be simplistic so all understand.

Right, but what is to stop the body from using stored muscle?

Stavios

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #356 on: January 29, 2007, 05:28:41 PM »
Adonis, why weren't you more muscular in the mr.getbig contest if your "method" works so well ?

you clearly lost a couple of pounds of muscle even if you are delusional about that fact

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #357 on: January 29, 2007, 05:29:31 PM »
Right, but what is to stop the body from using stored muscle?

As long as you are training heavy you won`t lose any, even then, it STILL would be difficult.

You would have to be bed-ridden or have a muscle wasting disease in order to lose a noticable amount.

EL Mariachi

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #358 on: January 29, 2007, 05:30:54 PM »
I have a question for Mr True Adonis...im 85 kg and i want to loose some fat, how much calories should i take in? i train 3/4 times a week with an hour of cardio afterwards.

Today i ate 6 small meals

meal 1 koffie and cigarettes

meal 2 zinger and red bull drink

meal 3 1 whole egg + 3 eggwhites

meal 4 sandwich with white cheese

meal 5 30 grams of Pure Whey

meal 6 2 sendwiches with a little salami and cheese


i think all of this is something like 1200 calories?

troponin

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #359 on: January 29, 2007, 05:31:59 PM »
Also, what TROPONIN is failing to see is that IN A CALORIC DEFECIT ALL PROTEIN,CARBOHYDRATES and FAT will be used.


IT WOULD MATTER NOT anyways since the goal of a Caloric Defecit is to pull from stored fat, stored potential kinetic energy.

I am trying to be simplistic so all understand.

Honestly, I don't care what type of diet people follow.  If a diet works, it works.  There are a million ways to get in shape.  

It is very easy to over-simplify the incredible complex workings of human digestion.  

If you refined your points, it would be perfectly relevant.  
You say that the GOAL of a caloric deficit is to pull from stored fat.  I doubt anyone would question that.  But, you cannot guarantee the pulling of stored fat.  

For example, burning fat for energy is physiologically impossible in the presence of large bursts of insulin.  
So, if your hypocaloric diet contains nutrients that will potentiate the release of insulin in any large amount, fat utilization will be blunted, even if the total caloric intake over that given time is below your metabolic rate for that given time.  
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The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #360 on: January 29, 2007, 05:32:30 PM »
Adonis, why weren't you more muscular in the mr.getbig contest if your "method" works so well ?

you clearly lost a couple of pounds of muscle even if you are delusional about that fact

I was the most Muscular I had ever been!

I used to follow conventional diets....You can see my logs on Musclemayhem....1.5- 2 grams of protein, Carb Cycles, no cheating.

I was smaller and weaker.


My method I was about 5 lbs heavier and leaner.  

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #361 on: January 29, 2007, 05:33:53 PM »
I have a question for Mr True Adonis...im 85 kg and i want to loose some fat, how much calories should i take in? i train 3/4 times a week with an hour of cardio afterwards.

Today i ate 6 small meals

meal 1 koffie and cigarettes

meal 2 zinger and red bull drink

meal 3 1 whole egg + 3 eggwhites

meal 4 sandwich with white cheese

meal 5 30 grams of Pure Whey

meal 6 2 sendwiches with a little salami and cheese


i think all of this is something like 1200 calories?


You don`t have to go that low, with that said,  I would need a constant to determine your total amount once I apply my formula.

Stavios

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #362 on: January 29, 2007, 05:34:08 PM »
I was the most Muscular I had ever been!

I used to follow conventional diets....You can see my logs on Musclemayhem....1.5- 2 grams of protein, Carb Cycles, no cheating.

I was smaller and weaker.


My method I was about 5 lbs heavier and leaner.  

of course your were 5lbs heavier, you gained muscle while bulking

The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #363 on: January 29, 2007, 05:39:32 PM »
of course your were 5lbs heavier, you gained muscle while bulking

How do you know?  hahahaha  (Playing Devil`s Advocate)

swilkins1984

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #364 on: January 29, 2007, 05:39:42 PM »
Adonis, do you believe that the body burns fat at the same rate when insulin levels are higher or even "spiked" compared to when blood sugar levels are low in a calorie deficit? Long sentence ;D. Insulin supposedly is a fat storing/anabolic hormone.

EL Mariachi

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #365 on: January 29, 2007, 05:40:15 PM »
You don`t have to go that low, with that said,  I would need a constant to determine your total amount once I apply my formula.


what do you need to know?

in the past a ate everything, and ate a lot of sugars like chocolate before going to bed. so i have now a beer-belly and saggy tits. but now i want to get ripped as nails for the summer, i think i need to loose 20 pounds of fat.

troponin

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #366 on: January 29, 2007, 05:41:51 PM »
An example of over simplifying complex human digestion and energy utilization are the compounds acetyl-CoA carboxylase 1 and acetyl-CoA carboxylase 2.   These two are involved in the production of malonyl-CoA.  malonyl-CoA is important in the formation of fatty acids, and also fat burning.

Aceyl-CoA carboxylase 2 is very important in fat burning, it regulates how fatty acids are transfered to the Mitochondria (can go back to oxidative coupling from a previous post).  
If you could block Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase 2, you could burn fat continuously in the mitochondria.

Insulin production by the body actually stimulates the production of both of those.  The first one which has to do with fat storage (Absolutely necessary for growth and development), and the second blunts fatty asid transfer to teh mitochondria.  

If a calorie is a calorie, and in a hypocaloric deficit, the body will burn off body fat no matter what macronutrients are ingested.....what about Acetyl-Coa carboxylas 2's actions from teh sugars you may have ingested in your hypocaloric meal?
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The True Adonis

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #367 on: January 29, 2007, 05:41:58 PM »
Adonis, do you believe that the body burns fat at the same rate when insulin levels are higher or even "spiked" compared to when blood sugar levels are low in a calorie deficit? Long sentence ;D. Insulin supposedly is a fat storing/anabolic hormone.

I believe that the question is irrelevant when in a Caloric defecit.

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #368 on: January 29, 2007, 05:42:08 PM »
How do you know?  hahahaha  (Playing Devil`s Advocate)
¸

how do you know you didn't gain any muscle ?  ;) ;)

EL Mariachi

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #369 on: January 29, 2007, 05:42:39 PM »
and by the way this is not me, i found this pic at bodybuilding.com just for laughts ;D  

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #370 on: January 29, 2007, 05:43:32 PM »
of course your were 5lbs heavier, you gained muscle while bulking

If Adam's methods truly worked he wouldn't have looked like complete shit in the offseason..You seen the pictures... :'(

He looked depleted even in the offseason.. :(

troponin

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #371 on: January 29, 2007, 05:43:39 PM »
I believe that the question is irrelevant when in a Caloric defecit.

I answered that question in my previous post.  The answer is the usage of fatty acids for energy is most definitely lower (and essentially physiologically impossible) in the presence of insulin.
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chainsaw

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #372 on: January 29, 2007, 05:43:50 PM »
Paul Dillet had mcdonalds bfast lunch and dinner.  He was following the adonis principle.  lol....  

lol....   lol.....



lol.....  lol......


Adonis Principle at work...   lol
Most are all show no go!

chainsaw

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #373 on: January 29, 2007, 05:44:59 PM »
And he got freakin fat, and lost all his muscle...

Most are all show no go!

the choad

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Re: DISGUSTED-----------OBVIOUSLY THE MOST EDUCATED "GURU".
« Reply #374 on: January 29, 2007, 05:45:59 PM »
I answered that question in my previous post.  The answer is the usage of fatty acids for energy is most definitely lower (and essentially physiologically impossible) in the presence of insulin.

Hey trop Adam's principles don't account for insulin at all, only calories in versus out..