Author Topic: Don't Support The Troops  (Read 7419 times)

ribonucleic

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Don't Support The Troops
« on: February 03, 2007, 01:21:17 PM »
edited from "Don’t Support the Troops" by Brandon J. Snider - http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/snider1.html

The US has an all-volunteer army now. These aren’t the days of the draft, where men are ordered to kill-or-be-killed. (Though even in the days of the draft, it was possible to peacefully resist). Still, many arguments abound against criticism of troops:

1) The troops were lied to by the administration - specifically with regards WMDs.

What a revolutionary idea, that politicians lie. Strange that we never believed those lies. Strange that we knew from the second that they escaped Colin L. Powell’s lips. That it was, as Powell himself said, "bullsh!t."

When has the US military ever been used as a defensive force? The US is not in danger of invasion, has never been in danger of invasion, and does not require a standing military. Even with these obvious truths, the US has had a standing military of ever increasing size since before the Cretaceous period.

The US military is, was, and ever shall be, an offensive force - existing at the meddlesome whims of political masters. If GI Joe joined the military thinking he would only be used if the US were attacked, he was suffering from an incurable form of galactic foolishness. Let’s not lionize a fool, especially one with a gun.

2) They’re naïve; they didn’t understand what they were getting into when they signed up.

And yet, again, we do seem to understand. We did not sign up, because we didn’t want to kill or be killed, for the state. What have we been doing right that they have not? Is the information so hidden that they cannot seek out and determine for themselves what they’re getting themselves into?

Certainly there is no substitute for experience, which they certainly lack. But is it not their responsibility, given what they do know about their impending duties, to seek out and inform themselves of what awaits? They are, after all, being asked to take a weapon and kill other human beings. They know that much. That’s not the sort of thing one would do in Sunday school. How much more pathetic and contemptible does it make them that they didn’t properly investigate the situation before they volunteered?

It is also reasonable to assume that many of them do understand and are happy to carry out their orders. The fact that the troops continue to obey orders, and some no doubt enjoy their jobs, clearly reflects their attitudes – and suggests what level of sympathy they deserve.

3) In joining, they’re acting in their financial best interests, like we all do. It’s not their fault, it’s the system.

Some equate the military to being on a public works project. Before you continue with this easy, lazy line of thought, be sure to draw a clear moral demarcation point between building a road and blasting someone’s head off.

4) Troops are victims of military planners.

If so, they share equal responsibility for their victimhood. What do we call someone who’s killed by an invading force? We usually try not to call them anything at all. We usually ignore them and focus on our own casualties. They are, however, clearly victims. The troops who have victimized them share responsibility with the military planners. Troops are not mindless machines, automatons carrying out prearranged instructions as if without free will. At any time, they can lay down their weapons and refuse to kill.

5) War is just one big insane disaster; blaming individual troops for what happens is not fair.

If you and I know that war is an insane kill-fest, then why doesn’t GI Joe know it beforehand? And isn’t it his responsibility to know?

Conclusion

We hold brutal killers like John Wesley Hardin or Charles Manson in the lowest regard, but the difference between these killers and military troops is semantic and symbolic. It’s time to address the issue of the troops with the brutality it richly deserves. It’s time to deconstruct the myth of the glorious military adventure.

It’s long past time we shame people who think about military service. Perhaps then fewer young people will throw their lives away. Shame people into refusing to join and the supply of cannon fodder will atrophy to the point where foreign adventures will not be possible without a draft.

Anal Iceman Lubeth

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 01:39:43 PM »
Interesting.  I almost joined last year.
Chadwick Mower in 2008

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 07:08:31 PM »
Actually, no-one was 'lied to' in regards to WMD.  The entire western world's intelligence agencies believed Saddam had WMD.  A mistake (granted, a large one) is still not a lie.
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ribonucleic

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 08:31:28 PM »
Actually, no-one was 'lied to' in regards to WMD.  The entire western world's intelligence agencies believed Saddam had WMD.

Really?  ::)

<< The Downing Street memo...  contains an overview of a secret July 23, 2002 meeting among United Kingdom Labour government, defence and intelligence figures, discussing the build-up to the war—including direct reference to classified United States policy of the time. It clearly states that, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." >>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo

A mistake (granted, a large one) is still not a lie.

OK, let's humor you for a moment. If a US general committed a mistake that resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops [not to mention wasting half a trillion dollars], wouldn't you at least expect him to be relieved of command?

That's really all I'm asking for. For the military commander whose actions resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops to be relieved of command.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 08:39:06 PM »
Really?  ::)

<< The Downing Street memo...  contains an overview of a secret July 23, 2002 meeting among United Kingdom Labour government, defence and intelligence figures, discussing the build-up to the war—including direct reference to classified United States policy of the time. It clearly states that, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." >>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo

OK, let's humor you for a moment. If a US general committed a mistake that resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops [not to mention wasting half a trillion dollars], wouldn't you at least expect him to be relieved of command?

That's really all I'm asking for. For the military commander whose actions resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops to be relieved of command.

Er, you rely on Wikipedia for your indictment of world leaders?  I'm sorry, I know believing Bush used WMD as an excuse for entering Iraq qualifies for one of your conspiratorial wet-dreams, but it just isn't so.  Tell me, if he was happy to lie about weapons being in Iraq; why not then actually plant them in Iraq with his billions of dollars worth of resources?  Then what would you come up with?

Better yet, my friend, instead of asking about the needless death of the 3,000 brave American troops you mention - why not ask about the thousands of gassed Kurds, dead Kuwaitis and Iranians from Saddam’s regime?  Or why not the Israelis and Kuwaitis saved from harm by removing this despot?

You reveal yourself as a pro-retreat coward with your posts.

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ribonucleic

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 09:31:23 PM »
Er, you rely on Wikipedia for your indictment of world leaders?  I'm sorry, I know believing Bush used WMD as an excuse for entering Iraq qualifies for one of your conspiratorial wet-dreams, but it just isn't so.  Tell me, if he was happy to lie about weapons being in Iraq; why not then actually plant them in Iraq with his billions of dollars worth of resources?  Then what would you come up with?

Better yet, my friend, instead of asking about the needless death of the 3,000 brave American troops you mention - why not ask about the thousands of gassed Kurds, dead Kuwaitis and Iranians from Saddam’s regime?  Or why not the Israelis and Kuwaitis saved from harm by removing this despot?

You reveal yourself as a pro-retreat coward with your posts.

"Coward", huh? Ouch.  ::)

You're posting on Getbig from your barracks in Fallujah, I take it? Or is the keyboard your weapon in this war against the Supreme Evil Of All Time?



You seem to have conveniently forgot (or perhaps are too ignorant to have learned in the first place) that the Kurds were gassed with chemical weapons we sold Saddam Hussein back when he was our pal. See Rumsfeld shaking hands with him?



Seems to me a simpler way of defending the Kurds would have been not to sell Saddam Hussein the chemical weapons he used to kill them. Hmm?

But in the end, we're all about defending innocent people, damn it! [Though there are those strange reports coming out that more people are dying and being tortured now than under Hussein...  :-\] So those poor black bastards in Darfur can rest assured that the cavalry will be riding over the hill any time now... as soon as ExxonMobil discovers some exploitable oil reserves.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 09:43:27 PM »
"Coward", huh? Ouch.  ::)

You're posting on Getbig from your barracks in Fallujah, I take it? Or is the keyboard your weapon in this war against the Supreme Evil Of All Time?



You seem to have conveniently forgot (or perhaps are too ignorant to have learned in the first place) that the Kurds were gassed with chemical weapons we sold Saddam Hussein back when he was our pal. See Rumsfeld shaking hands with him?



Seems to me a simpler way of defending the Kurds would have been not to sell Saddam Hussein the chemical weapons he used to kill them. Hmm?

But in the end, we're all about defending innocent people, damn it! [Though there are those strange reports coming out that more people are dying and being tortured now than under Hussein...  :-\] So those poor black bastards in Darfur can rest assured that the cavalry will be riding over the hill any time now... as soon as ExxonMobil discovers some exploitable oil reserves.

Oh, the US sold those weapons to Saddam did they?  Well, actually no, let's try and do a little research next time.  For anyone reading this that is concerned, as I'm sure this fellow won't, please read this excellent debunking of the Iraq/US chemical weapons illusion:

http://proteinwisdom.com/index.php?/weblog/entry/22227/
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JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 09:48:07 PM »
But in the end, we're all about defending innocent people, damn it! [Though there are those strange reports coming out that more people are dying and being tortured now than under Hussein...  :-\] So those poor black bastards in Darfur can rest assured that the cavalry will be riding over the hill any time now... as soon as ExxonMobil discovers some exploitable oil reserves.
hahahah BRUCE has been ravaged once again.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 09:50:50 PM »
hahahah BRUCE has been ravaged once again.

You'll, no doubt, read my above posted link and agree, in fact, that the US was one of Iraq's staunchest opponents in developing chemical weapons - based on the facts, of course.

Or not.
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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 12:30:26 AM »
That's really all I'm asking for. For the military commander whose actions resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops to be relieved of command.

LOL! 

Promotions for everyone!

BRUCE, ribo is dismantling you.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 02:32:44 PM »
That's really all I'm asking for. For the military commander whose actions resulted in the needless death of 3,000 American troops to be relieved of command.

LOL! 

Promotions for everyone!

BRUCE, ribo is dismantling you.

Whoops, another one that didn't read my link.  Why is 'Ribo' lying, 240?
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headhuntersix

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2007, 02:38:50 AM »
Wow what a bunch of bullshit....RIBO please leave my country.
L

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 07:39:25 AM »
Wow what a bunch of bullshit....RIBO please leave my country.

Second! 

24KT

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2007, 12:43:46 PM »
Wow what a bunch of bullshit....RIBO please leave my country.

Maybe you oughtta make him... oh, but wait... you can't... 'cause your ass is tied up in Afghanistan.  :-*
w

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2007, 12:46:02 PM »
he's securing american oil interests.  the whole world knows it.

you can WIKI it using the keywords "spreading democracy".

;)

ribonucleic

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2007, 12:53:23 PM »
he's securing american oil interests.  the whole world knows it.

He'll be in my thoughts when I gas up my car on the way home from work.  :(

Camel Jockey

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2007, 12:58:10 PM »
Wow what a bunch of bullshit....RIBO please leave my country.

OH BROTHER! The 'anti-American' and 'You hate America' defense.  ::)

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2007, 05:31:26 PM »
wow

american troops target and kill armed resistors. they follow the established rules on warfare, too much IMO.  they make sure they go out of their way to avoid killing bystanders. many soldiers, way before Iraq and way after, spend their time protecting and passing out aid to the poor and oppressed all over the world.

how can you possibly compare that to charles manson, someone who fed his followers LSD and then convinced them he was the messiah, then made them kill innocent people?

you disgust me
Valhalla awaits.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 05:34:19 PM »
wow

american troops target and kill armed resistors. they follow the established rules on warfare, too much IMO.  they make sure they go out of their way to avoid killing bystanders. many soldiers, way before Iraq and way after, spend their time protecting and passing out aid to the poor and oppressed all over the world.

how can you possibly compare that to charles manson, someone who fed his followers LSD and then convinced them he was the messiah, then made them kill innocent people?

you disgust me

You're right, this method of debate is nothing short of repugnant.  Such hate for The US can't be taken as serious contribution here.
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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2007, 05:37:49 PM »
His point is that soldiers know they are entering hell, to kill or be killed, for an aggressive agenda of decision makers in DC.

is he wrong, Bruce and cav?

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2007, 05:39:23 PM »
His point is that soldiers know they are entering hell, to kill or be killed, for an aggressive agenda of decision makers in DC.

is he wrong, Bruce and cav?

He's wrong to use such an example.  Why not just say what you have above, 240?
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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2007, 05:58:34 PM »
He's wrong to use such an example.  Why not just say what you have above, 240?

People could argue my statement.  Pick it apart. 
What he does it lay down - in harsh language - proofs for each chunk of my sentence.
It's not politically correct.  But every word in his post was accurate.  The truth hurts.

it all comes down to the huge divide in labeling the same thing.  The US takes aggressive measures in other nations to ensure we maintain our way of life.  Is it "spreading democracy and removing bad guys"?  Or is it "controlling where oil flows and keeping our puppets in power"?

it's both.

BRUCE

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2007, 06:11:00 PM »
People could argue my statement.  Pick it apart. 
What he does it lay down - in harsh language - proofs for each chunk of my sentence.
It's not politically correct.  But every word in his post was accurate.  The truth hurts.

it all comes down to the huge divide in labeling the same thing.  The US takes aggressive measures in other nations to ensure we maintain our way of life.  Is it "spreading democracy and removing bad guys"?  Or is it "controlling where oil flows and keeping our puppets in power"?

it's both.

He's told us to not support our troops, and stated he wants the coalition to lose.  He has also mocked a dead soldier's family.  Why do you offer him your friendship here?  Do you support what he has said?
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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2007, 06:13:16 PM »
Obviously I don't mock dead soldier's famalies.  Hell, 90% of my rants here are because I think it's bullshit our men are dying in baghdad when they should be playing cards and watching grids as they guard the pipeline, after pulling out of the cities.

He and I differ in some areas of course.  From what i can tell, he's anti-war.  I was okay with the war in Afghan (not because of 9/11 but because the taleban ripped us off for the pipeline the US needed).

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Re: Don't Support The Troops
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 06:17:52 PM »
Obviously I don't mock dead soldier's famalies.  Hell, 90% of my rants here are because I think it's bullshit our men are dying in baghdad when they should be playing cards and watching grids as they guard the pipeline, after pulling out of the cities.

He and I differ in some areas of course.  From what i can tell, he's anti-war.  I was okay with the war in Afghan (not because of 9/11 but because the taleban ripped us off for the pipeline the US needed).

You should distance yourself from him, you're better than some of the comments he has made.  Don't become guilty by association.
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