Side laterals.

[jpm101]

Cheating laterial raises can be favorable for increased deltoid thickness. Laterial raises need not be preformed by the book or have any special hand position to be a mass builder. Quite a bit of weight can be used in these extension exercises, allowing for a slght to moderate cheat at the start . Can do these also, one arm at a time, for a better mental focus. Grip a support with the free hand and start from in front of the body with the DB. May be surprises as too how much weight can be used after awhile.

Can also do laterial raises while lying side ways on an incline bench or even a flat bench. Some guy's prefer lying on a mat and will start the first rep from behind the body. Than from the top position, lower the DB to the front. From that position they raise the DB up and lower it to behind the body again. Gives different angles to the delts with the same exercise. Might also try negative laterals.  Try pressing a light DB overhead  and just lowering the DB to the sides, like a reverse lateral raise. Can be very effective. Though not for everyone, I will jerk a BB behind the neck and lower it in a negative, slow fashion to behind my neck. Can build up to quite a respectable weight after awhile. Hit's the shoider girdle very well.

With that lying DB raise, while lying on their sides (on a bench, matt or even a incline bench), some will have the DB straight out in front of them and raise the DB to overhead. Seems to focus well on the posterior delts, also. Good Luck.

[GoneAway]

seriously.  If you go to the gym and try to do all this stuff like twist your wrist at the top of side laterals and get that mind muscle connection going you know where it's gonna get ya?  No where.  Why?  Simple, let's say you go into the gym and do everything as textbook as possible, now let's say that you get up to the 25lbs db's before you start loosing form.  now since you want to keep eveything as close to perfect form as possible your really never gonna lift any heavier than that on that movement and guess what?  You've stopped progressing.  There's no new stimilus to get that muscle growing.  Form is important but not the give all end all.  The average natural-or even juiced guy-that's trying to get bigger should worry about lifting heavier and heavier weights not about twisting thier wrist while doing laterals. 

I can only imagine how many injuries you've had.

[pumpster]

I can only imagine how many injuries you've had.

LOL

[natural al]

I can only imagine how many injuries you've had.

from BB?  none.  From Wrastlin in high school?  2, shoulder and wrist.  in practice I got slammed and screwed both up.  Didn't go to the doctor and regret it everyday but I was only in 10th grade, I don't even think I told my parents.

heavy movements will not in themselves lead to injury.  Improper form, failure to warm up and generally not knowing what your doing will lead to injury.  When I have a problem with a movement my first quesiton is "what are my body mechanics like?"  9 out of 10 it's something your doing wrong that you dont' even know.  When I introduce a new movement into my routine the first few times it's kept light-if I experience a problem I'll look at what I mght be doing wrong and make an adjustment.  If I still am having problems or if something does not feel right the movement is dropped. 

You also have to give yourself enough time to recover, the heavier you lift the more you have to be aware of recovery.


I think people in general that have stagnated in the gym need to look at what they are doing and trim the fat so to speak.  Are doing laterals as prescribed originally a good idea?  Well, if your getting ready for a show-yes.  If you're a 130lbs kid with no mass to speak of then what's the point? 

[GoneAway]

True, good points. I see people doing the side laterals with the biceps practically facing up, and throwing the weights back as if they're doing a row. That may not lead to injurty (though it's stress on the rotator cuff) but that kind of form won't do much for building the delts. There has to be a medium I think, inbetween perfect form and just being sloppy, as far as lifting heavy goes.

[natural al]

True, good points. I see people doing the side laterals with the biceps practically facing up, and throwing the weights back as if they're doing a row. That may not lead to injurty (though it's stress on the rotator cuff) but that kind of form won't do much for building the delts. There has to be a medium I think, inbetween perfect form and just being sloppy, as far as lifting heavy goes.

I'll agree with you on the form part.  i can't tell you how many times I've  at some of the things I see.  I think the majority of guys who walk into the gym for the first 2 years are wasting thier time if they are not sticking to heavy, basic compound movements.  problem is people read a magazine article and see how..well in my case Lee Labrada trains delts and figures "he's a pro, I've gotta train like that" and ignores the simple fact that the person reading that article is not a pro.  yeah, strydom's got great delts, what he says has merit FOR SOME, not for the majority of guys out there. 

I dont' know if I articulated that right but I think you get what I'm trying to say.

[pumpster]

I disagree that compounds somehow afford more protection; there's no proof that compounds either reduce injury potential or are more effective for gaining size. As for "going heavy", this can be one of the most dangerous aspects. The caveat there should be lifting heavy within the context of moderate reps and reasonably short rests between sets, to keep the area warm.

As far as doing everything possible to avoid injury-good warm up, keeping the weight under control, etc. this will maximize but will not remove the possibility of injury. Sometimes injuries just happen, no matter what.

[GoneAway]

I'll agree with you on the form part.  i can't tell you how many times I've  at some of the things I see.  I think the majority of guys who walk into the gym for the first 2 years are wasting thier time if they are not sticking to heavy, basic compound movements.  problem is people read a magazine article and see how..well in my case Lee Labrada trains delts and figures "he's a pro, I've gotta train like that" and ignores the simple fact that the person reading that article is not a pro.  yeah, strydom's got great delts, what he says has merit FOR SOME, not for the majority of guys out there. 

I dont' know if I articulated that right but I think you get what I'm trying to say.

I get what you mean. The pros should post more to what they used to build the most mass in the early days when they were less hormonised and put on the greatest amount of muscle. But as you said, everyone reacts differently, so whose to say a routine that Dugdale uses for the Ironman 2007 wouldn't work for a newbie lifter, provided they're doing everything else right.

[natural al]

I get what you mean. The pros should post more to what they used to build the most mass in the early days when they were less hormonised and put on the greatest amount of muscle. But as you said, everyone reacts differently, so whose to say a routine that Dugdale uses for the Ironman 2007 wouldn't work for a newbie lifter, provided they're doing everything else right.

if your just using Mark as an example then I think your logic is wrong.  No offense.  If you took a newbie put him in the gym and told him to do what dugdale did he'd never be able to do it.  Intesity is learned, just cause Mark says to use forced reps and heavy weight doesn't mean anything until you actually learn how to do it.  9.9/10 people will never "get everything else right", it's almost impossible for a newbie to grasp all of the concepts. 

the way Mark trains could be used as an example to a young guy-train heavy, ignore the fluff and get alot of rest but to do exactly what he does would be a disaster.  One of the reasons a guy like DC says "don't do my routine unless youv'e been lifting seriously for at least 3 years" is because a newbie just does not know.  I know this isn't exactly the same thing but you dont' just jump into Calc III, you start off slow with basic mathmatical concepts and grow from there, BB should be the same.  you need to build a good foundation using the basics and then as you progress you can look at other things. 

I see guys spending over an hour training arms.  why?  unless your at the very genetic top end your wasting your time and if your training for an hour chances are your not putting forth any intesity what so ever.  I dont' care how hard they're supinating thier wrists they're wasting thier time.  keep in mind that these are "clean" guys and they weigh about 125lbs, follow up thier workouts with mountain dew.......so much is wrong I dont' even know where to start.

[jpm101]

All the proof in the world that compounds build the ultimate muscle size. Compounds also insure that the whole unit of a muscle worked will become stronger and less likely to be injured. All things being equal, with a proper warm-up, stretch and not rushing the weight when beginning a set for a given exercise. Heavy lifting need not cause any more potential for injury as lighter, moderate lifting would. As the Mod suggested "Sometimes injuries just happen, no matter what". Whatever precautions are taken before a lift (be it a 3 rep max or a 15 rep light, so called isolation exercise) there is not always a guarantee than an injury (slight or serious) will not happen. It's not a perfect world when it comes to working out or with any thing else.

One of the reasons that the modern athlete trains with compound, heavy exercises is to strengthen the body against potential career shorting injuries. Not to mention the increase in power and stamina gained for their selected sport. If an injury occurs, than a period of rehab is required with lighter weight/machines and where controlled stretching is encouraged. After healed, the athlete will resume the compound lifting exercises. Go to any team training center and observe the power racks, lifting platforms, Olympic bars, etc that are geared for heavy compound lifting. That should be proof enough for anyone about the value of heavy, compound exercises. And how it can build very rapid muscle size and joint strength. Good luck.

[pumpster]

If compounds were better, *no one* would do curls or pullovers or extensions or calf raises. Just to be clear, biceps curls of all varieties are not compounds. Pullovers, one of THE BEST and most fundamental lat exercises, are not compounds. Calf work does not involve compounds. Flys, one of the best chest exercises, aren't compounds. Lateral raises, one of the two best size builders, aren't compounds.

Compounds for for BB purposes differs from athletic applications, hence lat pulldowns emphasizing the elbows not the hands. The net result of the nuance is a compound that is skewed towards isolation as much as can be done with a compound. Same for rows, benches, etc. - in effect the modifications done to these exercises to make them better for development removes as much of the other muscles as possible, transfers it to the target muscle & greater isolation.

Of course going heavy can be problematic; this is common sense. Keep the reps moderate to avoid injury as well as to maximize development, as most BBs do.

Compounds for athletic training's are an aside, nothing to do with BB training. Compounds generally make more sense for athletic applications.

[natural al]

pumpster, I respect what your saying and I'll agree with you that some isolation movements are required for BB.  That said I think the average beginner places far to much emphasis on isolation movements.  I did it...hell everyone does it.  I remember seeeing a shot of Lou Ferrigno during his early 90's comeback doing a kind of cable concentration curl...well if it was good for him it must be good for me.  Truth is I probably got zero from doing that cause a base was not built up at that point.  That's just one example.

I guess to answer the original post in this thead, if you wanna go ahead and do laterals just like Gary strydom, more power to ya.  Sooner or later you're gonna see that you just wasted that much time. 

[jpm101]

Let's see here....We could give a new trainee a workout plan of flys (extensions), straight arm pullovers (extensions), curls, lateral raises (extensions) and calf raises.

We could give another trainee (roughly the same bwt, muscle size and height as the other guy) squats, BB rows, benches, that's it. All compound (two joint or more movement).

Wonder which one would make the most gains in muscle mass and strength?

Power lifters are included among the athlete group, of course. Very huge muscle size and strength, gained from compound squat, DL & BP training. I don't think  the future of PL'ing will replace these fine compound exercises with the DB fly, pullover and calf raise. And if they did, how large would the lifters(?) be I wonder.

Don't care how much anyone would try modification on a compound exercise, it's still a compound exercise by it's nature. The lat pull, for example, will involve the elbows and shoulder joints= compound exercise. Actually there are no pure isolation movements. Any muscle acts with-in a unit. Even when trying to isolate biceps, the triceps and full range of muscle links all the way down to the finger tips come into action, to a lesser degree. The delts also.Good luck.

[pumpster]

Let's see here....We could give a new trainee a workout plan of flys (extensions), straight arm pullovers (extensions), curls, lateral raises (extensions) and calf raises.

We could give another trainee (roughly the same bwt, muscle size and height as the other guy) squats, BB rows, benches, that's it. All compound (two joint or more movement).

Wonder which one would make the most gains in muscle mass and strength?

Vince Gironda was big on isolations as well as the use of the modified compounds i've described. Someone named Larry Scott did just fine on arm training using 90% isolations. LOL

[metalruler]

Ok guys....I wanna ask u how on bloody earth do u go heavy when ur suffering from a lower back injury bear in mind this is not from improper form but wear and tear due to yrs of training. I think pumpster knows where I'm coming from becos we both experienced the same problem, Now give me a solution?

[natural al]

Ok guys....I wanna ask u how on bloody earth do u go heavy when ur suffering from a lower back injury bear in mind this is not from improper form but wear and tear due to yrs of training. I think pumpster knows where I'm coming from becos we both experienced the same problem, Now give me a solution?

my low back is screwed not cause of training but cause of a job I had in the past.  A good belt and common sense let me trian shoulders without any problem.  I look at a movement, where the potential problems are for my back and eliminate them if possible.  When doing military presses, they're done on a smith with the chair angled slightly back to take all pressure off the low back.  I've been working around this for years.

[jpm101]

MentalRuler did not say what type back injury he was dealing with. Disk, ligament, tendon, muscle strain, pulled, etc. Is the back getting better or worse? Is he under medical care? If he has reached  the age  where moderation is the general training rule, than that's what it should be. Try to train around an injured back, if you can. Lighter weight and no sudden moves, like cleans, Hi-pulls, etc. You can still get in productive workouts, with a little planning and caution (GVT comes to mind, where even a moderate weight give an outstanding workout). Hyper extensions/GoodMornings will strengthen the muscles around the lower back. But if a ruptured disk or any ligament problems, direct exercise should be avoided until back is somewhat normal. That may take time. Sport and deep tissue massages can help also, as can light stretching exercises.

I had a major operation on my #4 & #5 disk while in college. I'm lifting more than ever before at the age of 34 but I do have my bad day's on occasion. Took a little less than a year to get back into somewhat normal shape ater that operation.

If you have any back trouble doing any overhead lifts, you might try placing one foot ahead of the other and have a slight bend to both knees. Reduces stress on the lower back. Sitting, while overhead pressing, may not be the best idea for some. Too much direct pressure on that lower back from the mechanics/leverage of that position.  Just trying to hold the lower back in a stable position, while pressing overhead, may cause undo tension. Good luck.