Some choice quotations from the koran...

[Nordic Superman]

Some of my faves:

007.004:
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.

003.151:
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

004.089:
They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

004.150 - 151:
Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between;
Such are disbelievers in truth; and for disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom.

The above basically means, that if you do not believe EVERYTHING in the koran as 100% truth then you shall feel allahs doom.

This is an interesting one:

005.041:
O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

Allah actually implants evil in people? Hmm... is this God or is this satan we're talking about here?

006.049:
But as for those who deny Our revelations, torment will afflict them for that they used to disobey.

Allah the torturer... again... God or satan?

006:113:
"Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die."

Yeah... I think we can conclude this pig named allah is actually satan...

008.017:
It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

Satanic...

Remember folks... this is the religion of peace!

[haider]

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!   

[Nordic Superman]

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!   

When are you going to jihad camp?

If you don't fight for allah and/or chose to only believe parts of the koran then you will be with me in eternal doom in hell fire.

Can't wait to meet you in the person fella!

[haider]

When are you going to jihad camp?

If you don't fight for allah and/or chose to only believe parts of the koran then you will be with me in eternal doom in hell fire.

Can't wait to meet you in the person fella!

Even an atheist would want ur ass in hell, for the asshole u are

[haider]

Can you also pull out your bible now and deride the christians for what is found in their books? There's certainly some very very violent things present in the bible, that people seem to ignore and instead choose to harp on the Quran for mentioning God's wrath on the unbeleivers. 

[Nordic Superman]

Can you also pull out your bible now and deride the christians for what is found in their books? There's certainly some very very violent things present in the bible, that people seem to ignore and instead choose to harp on the Quran for mentioning God's wrath on the unbeleivers. 

Here's the difference... when was the last act of terrorism in the name of Christ?

What aggressive passages are there in the Bible that quotes Jesus EXACTLY. Where does Jesus say "kill unbelievers", where's the historical evidence of Jesus beheading hundreds of men?

Nothing even compares to islam and it's satanic heritage and rituals.

[haider]

Here's the difference... when was the last act of terrorism in the name of Christ?

What aggressive passages are there in the Bible that quotes Jesus EXACTLY. Where does Jesus say "kill unbelievers", where's the historical evidence of Jesus beheading hundreds of men?

Nothing even compares to islam and it's satanic heritage and rituals.

are u done ranting yet ya whining bitch. Correlation does not equal causation, until proven otherwise. There are absolutely aggressive passages in the bible that describe God's direct wrath upon a people, and the passages aren't very subtle either. There HAVE been acts that were commited in the name of christianity, and it still happens in some countries, just not to the same degree. Obviously this goes against the teachings of Christianity, so one has to wonder whether these acts are solely individual (or the dielogy of a few crazy one) or if its directly attached to the religious doctrine. I think it's very hard to prove that it boils down to religion, given other variables such as education(or lack thereof), economic and political situation, etc. It actually has very little to do with religion, although it may appear on the surface that it has much more to do with religion since theres a lot of religious rhetoric that goes with this kinda thing.

[Nordic Superman]

are u done ranting yet ya whining bitch. Correlation does not equal causation, until proven otherwise. There are absolutely aggressive passages in the bible that describe God's direct wrath upon a people, and the passages aren't very subtle either. There HAVE been acts that were commited in the name of christianity, and it still happens in some countries, just not to the same degree. Obviously this goes against the teachings of Christianity, so one has to wonder whether these acts are solely individual (or the dielogy of a few crazy one) or if its directly attached to the religious doctrine. I think it's very hard to prove that it boils down to religion, given other variables such as education(or lack thereof), economic and political situation, etc. It actually has very little to do with religion, although it may appear on the surface that it has much more to do with religion since theres a lot of religious rhetoric that goes with this kinda thing.

Erm... when it comes to islam (this thread is about koranic verse, don't hijack it) you will find that islam is the "causation". Wars across the middle east, africa and parts of Indonesia are fueled by islamo supremacism.

Check the demographics of muslims world over. Check the educational and employment status's of peoples in India and Britain. I wonder if you will find that there is a correlation between the muslims groups and low levels of education and employment.

What promoted the suppression of education for girls in Afghanistan? Did educated females hinder the economics of the country negatively?

Why do peoples in Pakistan chose to send to kids to islamic schools? Why are Indians more literate than muslims?

WHAT IS THE CONNECTION? NOT ISLAM RIGHT?

[Hedgehog]

Here's the difference... when was the last act of terrorism in the name of Christ?

What aggressive passages are there in the Bible that quotes Jesus EXACTLY. Where does Jesus say "kill unbelievers", where's the historical evidence of Jesus beheading hundreds of men?

Nothing even compares to islam and it's satanic heritage and rituals.

Wrong.

The difference is that the Quran is the EXACT WORDS of Allah.

The Bible only has one passage, the Ten Commandments, that could pass that criteria.

Everything else in the Bible is just a collection of different authors.


So a Christian have much more room for interpretation, he or she can even disagree with parts of the Bible. A true Muslim cannot disagree with one single word of the Quran.


-Hedge

[haider]

Erm... when it comes to islam (this thread is about koranic verse, don't hijack it) you will find that islam is the "causation". Wars across the middle east, africa and parts of Indonesia are fueled by islamo supremacism.

You in effect hijacked your own thread by inserting into it the connection between religion and violence. I was merely responding to what you said. Again, what you are describing is a corelation, not causation. Similar wars and ongoing feuds are/have been the result of "christian supremacism" as well. However, there is not an element in christianity itself that condones this.

Check the demographics of muslims world over. Check the educational and employment status's of peoples in India and Britain. I wonder if you will find that there is a correlation between the muslims groups and low levels of education and employment.

I think in pakistan, on average the christian has a lower social status than muslims = lower education levels. In the middle east there is little distinction between the two groups.  What you fail to mention is the growth spurt of the sciences under Islamic rule. This goes in direct contradiction with your assertion that Islam suppresses education.

What promoted the suppression of education for girls in Afghanistan? Did educated females hinder the economics of the country negatively?

Why do peoples in Pakistan chose to send to kids to islamic schools? Why are Indians more literate than muslims?

WHAT IS THE CONNECTION? NOT ISLAM RIGHT?

The suppression of females in afghanistan is due to the dickhead taliban who have no sense or the concept of female rights. It may even be a cultural thing, since they do seem to have it backwards when it comes to many things. I dont know exactly why indians are more literate than pakistanis, but Im sure muslims within india do not fall behind the hindu's there. I fail to see how religion has anything to do with this.

[haider]

Wrong.

The difference is that the Quran is the EXACT WORDS of Allah.

The Bible only has one passage, the Ten Commandments, that could pass that criteria.

Everything else in the Bible is just a collection of different authors.


So a Christian have much more room for interpretation, he or she can even disagree with parts of the Bible. A true Muslim cannot disagree with one single word of the Quran.


-Hedge

You say that as if it gives the bible more merit than it can be interpreted to one's own likeness to a higher degree. Not everything in the Quran is literal and cut and clear, so there definitely IS room for interpretation. A lot of things have to be understood within the context of history in the Quran also, so one definitely needs scholarly help in order to understand those type of verses. You can't disagree with verses in the Quran but you can definitely argue in favour of your interpretation, if there happens to be that type of disagreement. I think the same goes for the bible. How can you as a christian disagree with the [inspired] word of God?

[Nordic Superman]

You in effect hijacked your own thread by inserting into it the connection between religion and violence. I was merely responding to what you said. Again, what you are describing is a corelation, not causation. Similar wars and ongoing feuds are/have been the result of "christian supremacism" as well. However, there is not an element in christianity itself that condones this.I think in pakistan, on average the christian has a lower social status than muslims = lower education levels. In the middle east there is little distinction between the two groups.  What you fail to mention is the growth spurt of the sciences under Islamic rule. This goes in direct contradiction with your assertion that Islam suppresses education.
The suppression of females in afghanistan is due to the dickhead taliban who have no sense or the concept of female rights. It may even be a cultural thing, since they do seem to have it backwards when it comes to many things. I dont know exactly why indians are more literate than pakistanis, but Im sure muslims within india do not fall behind the hindu's there. I fail to see how religion has anything to do with this.

There were scientific breakthroughs by the nazi's which eclipse the islamic.

Why don't you attack the source i.e. the koran? Oh no... because you believe it is above judgement.

I am not a christian and yes islam is directly linked to numerous attrocities and violence across the globe.

[Camel Jockey]

The suppression of females in afghanistan is due to the dickhead taliban who have no sense or the concept of female rights. It may even be a cultural thing, since they do seem to have it backwards when it comes to many things. I dont know exactly why indians are more literate than pakistanis, but Im sure muslims within india do not fall behind the hindu's there. I fail to see how religion has anything to do with this.

It is the religion, dummy. A religion that proposes a woman to wear a rag around her head at all times can't be a good thing. You and other muslims just pick and choose what you like, but the fact is that there others who take everything literally and it doesn't mix well western ideology, as Islam is out of date. Why don't you grow some balls and abandon Islam? Why do you continue to support and follow it?

[Hedgehog]

You say that as if it gives the bible more merit than it can be interpreted to one's own likeness to a higher degree.

Then you read me wrong.

What I mean is simply that The Bible has less credibility, is easier to question. You can still be a Christian, even if you don't agree with everything that is written in the Bible. You only have to agree on the general concept.

Not everything in the Quran is literal and cut and clear, so there definitely IS room for interpretation. A lot of things have to be understood within the context of history in the Quran also, so one definitely needs scholarly help in order to understand those type of verses.

Right and wrong. Not everything is literal, Allah used allegories in a few instances.

But you don't have to understand the Quran in the "context of history", ie taking the current situation where Muhammed (PBUH) lived into account.

Why? Because Allah is almighty, and the rules and preachings of Allah doesn't need to be customised to a particular era.

Because if they would have to be, then the words of Allah are not complete, and Allah is not almighty.

You can't disagree with verses in the Quran but you can definitely argue in favour of your interpretation, if there happens to be that type of disagreement.

The Quran is the direct word of Allah. If you interpret it, it's like saying Allah didn't know his shyte 100%.



 

I think the same goes for the bible. How can you as a christian disagree with the [inspired] word of God?

Other people claim the Bible to be the word of God. Why should anyone take that for granted, without reviewing the texts?

Read the Bible, and you'll find tons of inconsistencies, I believe you really need to interpret and pick the parts of the Bible that you feel are right, in order for the Bible to make sense.

The rest of the Bible will then only serve as a historical background.

-Hedge

[Nordic Superman]

Haider,

Here's a story of the backwards and primitive thought processes islam has it's adherents believe:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2012124,00.html

He was speaking as it was claimed that a majority of mosques in the UK - around 60% - do not admit women at all.

This is in Britain...

Of course there's no correlation between islam and womens rights is there? But how come... islam is always there? Coincidence?

[Hedgehog]

Haider,

Here's a story of the backwards and primitive thought processes islam has it's adherents believe:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2012124,00.html

This is in Britain...

Of course there's no correlation between islam and womens rights is there? But how come... islam is always there? Coincidence?

Thank you for finally seeing the light and using the mighty sword of hard facts when arguing, instead of the bullshit slurs.

Good post.

-Hedge

[haider]

There were scientific breakthroughs by the nazi's which eclipse the islamic.

Why don't you attack the source i.e. the koran? Oh no... because you believe it is above judgement.

I am not a christian and yes islam is directly linked to numerous attrocities and violence across the globe.

You are welcome to repeat yourself as much as you want.

It is the religion, dummy. A religion that proposes a woman to wear a rag around her head at all times can't be a good thing. You and other muslims just pick and choose what you like, but the fact is that there others who take everything literally and it doesn't mix well western ideology, as Islam is out of date. Why don't you grow some balls and abandon Islam? Why do you continue to support and follow it?

Whatever I said in this thread, I think I would say regardless of whether I support Islam or not.  You do ask good questions, and what you say is true about a lot of muslims, including me. I dont think I'm well equipped to give you a proper reply either, since the same things bother me. It's very complicated, especially if you come from a religious background. Regardless, I think it is not an easy task to discredit religion altogether.

I think at the surface (well, literally) it may appear that Islam oppresses women because the proposed dress code doesn't allow for them to leave much of their body uncovered. I dont think its a good argument for 2 reaons.
#1: It doesn't necessarily follow that women are being oppressed. It is a dress code, a standard of decency, much like westerners also ascribe to a certain standard. For example it is not permissible for a woman to walk around in a bikini top, so in a way she is being forced to put on clothes. I think it follows that there isn't a moral element to this as much as there is a customary/cultural one, atleast in secular terms.
#2: Muslim women, especially if u read stories of women converts, willingly wear the hijab, even describing it as a liberating experience. This not only contradicts the view that Islam oppresses women but also carries with it the claim that western society oppresses women.

[haider]

Then you read me wrong.

What I mean is simply that The Bible has less credibility, is easier to question. You can still be a Christian, even if you don't agree with everything that is written in the Bible. You only have to agree on the general concept.

I guess that is true in some way. Some may say though that such people aren't true christians.

Right and wrong. Not everything is literal, Allah used allegories in a few instances.

But you don't have to understand the Quran in the "context of history", ie taking the current situation where Muhammed (PBUH) lived into account.

Why? Because Allah is almighty, and the rules and preachings of Allah doesn't need to be customised to a particular era.

Because if they would have to be, then the words of Allah are not complete, and Allah is not almighty.

Then I think u may misunderstand the process through which the Quran was revealed to Muhammed(Pbuh). It is true that many verses, if not all, were revealed tp Muhammed in a "timely" or situational manner, i.e. they were revealed as Muhammed and his followers faced new challenges. While I think these verses carry a message with them that can be understood without the historical context, it certainly gives one a deeper understand to know the circumstances surrounding the revelation of the verses. This comes in handy especially when there is enquiring non-muslims.

The Quran is the direct word of Allah. If you interpret it, it's like saying Allah didn't know his shyte 100%.

Human interpretation is inevitable, although probably not required. Its a complicated subject.



 

Other people claim the Bible to be the word of God. Why should anyone take that for granted, without reviewing the texts?

Read the Bible, and you'll find tons of inconsistencies, I believe you really need to interpret and pick the parts of the Bible that you feel are right, in order for the Bible to make sense.

The rest of the Bible will then only serve as a historical background.

-Hedge

Makes sense, since the bible really was written by human beings. I mean no one claims that the bible is the direct word of God, atleast most christians don't.

[haider]

Haider,

Here's a story of the backwards and primitive thought processes islam has it's adherents believe:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2012124,00.html

This is in Britain...

Of course there's no correlation between islam and womens rights is there? But how come... islam is always there? Coincidence?

Again, there is nothing within the religious text that would justify what these people are doing there. It really comes as a shock to me that this is even being allowed to happen in the UK. IMO, this is a typical example of males trying to gain dominance. Christianity has also been plagued with this in the past, I think the effects of which, some argue, can still be seen to this day. So what you are presenring us with here is NOT typical of the layout of a mosque, atleast not outside of the UK. And this type of thing is certainly NOT unique to Islam. Blah.

[haider]

Cracker.

[Camel Jockey]

Whatever I said in this thread, I think I would say regardless of whether I support Islam or not.  You do ask good questions, and what you say is true about a lot of muslims, including me. I dont think I'm well equipped to give you a proper reply either, since the same things bother me. It's very complicated, especially if you come from a religious background. Regardless, I think it is not an easy task to discredit religion altogether.

There's hope for you yet, haider. Learn to leave behind domian/tribial loyalty and you shall be free. 

[Nordic Superman]

So let me get this straight... the koran dictates 100% equality between men and women?

And you're still adamant there's no correlation between the introduction of islam in parts of the world where it is the majority religion and the subsequent acts of violence in those parts of the world?

Can you give me one state where islam is the majority and can be used as an exhibition has how it can be?

[loco]

Read the Bible, and you'll find tons of inconsistencies
-Hedge

Hedge,
That's a very bold statement.  Have you read the Bible from cover to cover, over and over?  Please do tell me where the "tons" of inconsistencies are.  There are none.

Brilliant people like C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, John Clayton, etc. set out to find these "inconsistencies", "contradictions", "error", and in the process, they all became Christians and believers that the  Bible is the Word of GOD.

Read the Bible, and you'll become a believer.

Hedge,
This makes me think that it is indeed the word of God:

1.  Personally, when I decided to start reading the Bible on my own and I applied what I learned to my own life, my life improved tremendously.  My relationships, my health, my finances, my whole outlook in life and my attitude toward my troubles improved tremendously.  And I wasn't even a Christian then.  Once I became a Christian, things got even better.  I have also seen throughout my life many people have the same experience once they decided to read the Bible on their own and applied what they learned to their life.

2. Faith.  The Bible says that the Bible is the word of GOD and I believe it.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" 2 Peter 1:21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

3.  Fulfilled Prophecy.  The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy.  Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/

4. Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html

[Nordic Superman]

Hedge,
That's a very bold statement.  Have you read the Bible from cover to cover, over and over?  Please do tell me where the "tons" of inconsistencies are.  There are none.

Brilliant people like C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, John Clayton, etc. set out to find these "inconsistencies", "contradictions", "error", and in the process, they all became Christians and believers that the  Bible is the Word of GOD.

Read the Bible, and you'll become a believer.

Loco, what's your take on the satanic verses in the koran?

Would your god implant evil in people? Would your god do the torturering of wrong doers? Would your god murder in his own name using people as puppets?

Would your god make a prophet out of a man who beheaded hundreds of men, some of which were kids (those with pubic hair were treated as men)? How about molesting children?

[loco]

Loco, what's your take on the satanic verses in the koran?

Would your god implant evil in people? Would your god do the torturering of wrong doers? Would your god murder in his own name using people as puppets?

Would your god make a prophet out of a man who beheaded hundreds of men, some of which were kids (those with pubic hair were treated as men)? How about molesting children?

Superman,
I don't have a take on that.  You and I have had this discussion before.  You can ask me anything about Christianity and the Bible, even Roman Catholicism, but don't ask me about Islam or the Koran.  I haven't had a chance to study Islam yet.