That sounds weird to me, any sources for that? I realize that we need more carbs but less protein?
YES!
I have Many
Recently, the journal club topic was protein needs and two articles were up for discussion. The first was a T-Nation article by John Berardi entitled The
Protein Prejudice (this article can be found on this site). The second was a scientific review article by Stuart Phillips entitled Protein Requirements and Supplementation in Strength Sports. After discussing these articles, the members of the journal club invited Drs. Berardi and Phillips to debate the issue. This debate is what we’ve published below. To get the most out of it, you may want to follow the links above and check out what started the whole fracas.
The Debate
Dr. Phillips’s Response to "The Protein Prejudice"
I've read Dr. Berardi's paper and have found it generally sound, but lacking in sufficient evidence to truly be considered "truth" in some areas (not many to be honest); however, I'm pleased to hear that John is in-line with the general thesis that lifting weights reduces protein "requirements."
As far as "optimization," this is a far more difficult question and even John
knows that this hasn't been answered satisfactorily, or at least not to a degree that would make me offer the advice that lifters should "eat more protein—a lot more".
While it's easy to say "eat more protein" and counsel athletes to do this, what you have to ask at this point is: What are the dividends of eating more protein over and above requirement? Likely few, but then since they'll
never have tried doing anything else, do you get stronger, leaner etc. because of, or in spite of what you do?
In a recent review (Nutrition 20: 689-695, 2004) I examined the evidence for
whether resistance trained athletes "need" more protein. The answer is likely the opposite. On this John and I can agree. I also pointed out in the same review, after taking relevant nitrogen balance data and regressing it through zero nitrogen balance, that resistance trained athletes require more protein than sedentary individuals. The problem is that, by all standards, most milk, egg and meat-eating North American males eat way more protein than they need.
Also, I take issue with Dr. Berardi's interpretation of the requirement (i.e.,
the RDA) being "eating just enough protein to prevent deficiency." In fact, the
basis of the RDA is a much lower protein intake than 0.8g protein/kg/d, but
addition of safety margins means that 97.5% of the population is covered. Thus, it may well be that your individual requirements are far less than the RDA, but you'd have to participate in a study to find out exactly where you are.
The problem with all of this discussion about requirements and using nitrogen balance is the method is badly flawed. Hence, trying to talk about a requirement or even optimizing protein intake based on findings from nitrogen balance studies is like trying to circumnavigate the globe using a map before we knew the earth wasn't flat—the instrument is badly flawed so it'll lead you, ultimately, in the wrong direction.
My feeling on the whole issue of protein consumption is that it appears to be
beneficial to consume a higher than normal protein intake during a period of
weight loss to prevent loss of lean body mass. Lifting weights will only augment this effect and will have the more potent effect in terms of allowing one to hang on to as much protein as possible during energy deficit. I know, the scientist finally agrees with the strategy tried and tested by bodybuilders for years.
Using the logic laid out by John in his argument for how much protein you should consume to "optimize" training, along with the flawed N balance approach, one could argue that athletes can simply consume more and more and more protein since it's impossible to define a true ceiling. I suppose to answer the question of optimization I'd define it thusly: a protein intake that allows maximal functioning of all synthetic processes that require amino acids and that prevents excessive oxidation of amino acids and production of urea.
The closest any study has come to measuring something like this is a study by Tarnopolsky et al in 1992 (J. Appl. Physiol. 93(5): 1986, 1995) in which he
showed that despite an estimated protein intake to maintain nitrogen balance being somewhere around 1.7 g protein/kg/d, but that the synthetic of all body proteins (including muscle) was maximal at a protein intake of 1.4 g protein/kg/d, with no further increase up to 2.4 g protein/kg/d!
It did appear that the RDA for protein wasn't sufficient to maximize the
synthetic rate of body proteins.
Hence, faced with these data I'm not sure that one can argue that a protein intake of more than 1.4 g protein/kg/d is necessary or even beneficial for protein requiring process.
Also, at the recent Experimental Biology conference, data from Mike Rennie’s laboratory showed for the first time a dose response curve of muscle protein synthesis with oral dose of essential amino acids. They reported that oral dose of essential amino acids (EAA) at which muscle protein synthesis (i.e., the controlling and regulated variable determining muscle protein accretion) was only 10g — a similar dose of EAA is present in 500ml of skim milk!
Also, data from Mike Rennie’s lab (Bohe et al. J. Physiol. 532: 575-579, 2001) shows that in the face of available amino acids that muscle protein synthesis is turned off after 1-2 hours. Hence, it doesn't appear that amino acid supply a) has to be large, and b) isn't limiting for the process of synthesizing new muscle proteins.
How about a simple calculation to hammer home my point? Let’s say a hypothetical individual, Fred, weighs 90kg and in one year gains 10kg (22lb) of muscle. Not mass— muscle. That’s a pretty impressive rate of gain and something most of us would be happy with.
Now, that means over a year Fred has gained 10kg of muscle, which is 75% water, so really he's gained 2.5kg of muscle or protein (i.e., 2500g). That means he's gained: 2500g protein / 90kg / 365d or ~ 0.076 g protein/kg/d.
Now, if we assumethat the RDA is sufficient to cover all of Fred’s other protein needs, which is likely a large overestimate, then what Fred would be required to eat on a daily basis is:
0.8 g protein/kg/d + 0.076 = 0.876 g protein/kg/d to gain 22lb of muscle
Whoa, hold on you say, it takes six times as much protein consumption to lay down the equivalent amount of muscle (estimate from Mr. Colgan and the Colgan Institute—a hotbed of muscle research). In truth, I'm never sure where this number comes from since literature from the animal science area indicates that to lay down protein at rates sufficient to support weight gain in a growing steer—who in 180 days will lay down 226kg of mass, of which 60% is protein—you need only consume the mass gained x 2 in terms of protein content, but lets say it’s six. Okay, so now you need to consume:
0.8 g protein/kg/d + 0.456 g protein/kg/d = 1.256 g protein/kg/d to gain 22lb of muscle
Now, what if this person were smart and consumed some extra energy? Well, we know that this spares protein (Garza et al. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 29: 280-287, 1976). Also, we know that resistance exercise, consistent with its anabolic nature, is conservatory for muscle protein. Hence, resistance exercise, as John freely acknowledges, results in a reduction in protein requirements due to overall protein retention. This is particularly true in skeletal muscle when you haven’t eaten (Phillips et al. Am. J. Physiol. 273: E99-E107, 1997).
Now, if all of this true, then my estimates above are even higher than they need to be. So protein requirements to "optimize" muscle mass gains aren't large, certainly no larger than what most lacto-ovo, meat-eating North American males consume on a habitual basis—this was my ultimate point in recent review.
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