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Author Topic: Epic Tool "Squatting"  (Read 8874 times)
MisterMagoo
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« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2007, 12:31:53 PM »

How do you mean I take pot shots?

And what assumptions? I wondered what you based your red lighting statement on, that was all.

As far as the uneven lockout rule, I am in favor of removing it altogether actually. I wouldn't be surprised if it was. There has been a few rule changes as of late in the USAPL, some done to get rid of the extreme arches (like press command), some done to make the sport more logical.

I don't agree with all of these changes, but as a whole, the IPF is moving in the right direction.

IPF in Sweden is generally very consistant. If there are red lights, you will definitely know why.

It's the same depths as back in the 70-80's and the 90's.

-Hedge

you made assumptions on what type of powerlifting i'm a fan of. i was merely saying that either you go APF style or raw, somehow you took that to believe that i only endorse all-out gear feds despite my earlier admission that i enjoy raw lifting better.

the uneven lockout rule is a good one, but it should only apply to severe cases. minor wobble is unavoidable because no one has a symmetrical body. it's sort of like hitching your pull. if you lean back a lot it'll touch your thighs, but as long as you aren't using the lean to take the weight off you're good.

i'm not a fan of the arch removal, though. not because it inflates numbers, after all the best shirted and raw benchers have far less arch than many (chabot, henderson, rychlak, kennelly), but because not arching kills my shoulders.

belly benching only really comes about in geared lifting, there aren't many lifters who touch their stomachs in a raw press. siders at the NERB was right on his sternum when he got the 625 and he does a belly sink frequently in training. i bench to the bottom of my sternum roughly but in a shirt it was lower than that.
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« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2007, 12:57:29 PM »

you made assumptions on what type of powerlifting i'm a fan of. i was merely saying that either you go APF style or raw, somehow you took that to believe that i only endorse all-out gear feds despite my earlier admission that i enjoy raw lifting better.

the uneven lockout rule is a good one, but it should only apply to severe cases. minor wobble is unavoidable because no one has a symmetrical body. it's sort of like hitching your pull. if you lean back a lot it'll touch your thighs, but as long as you aren't using the lean to take the weight off you're good.

i'm not a fan of the arch removal, though. not because it inflates numbers, after all the best shirted and raw benchers have far less arch than many (chabot, henderson, rychlak, kennelly), but because not arching kills my shoulders.

belly benching only really comes about in geared lifting, there aren't many lifters who touch their stomachs in a raw press. siders at the NERB was right on his sternum when he got the 625 and he does a belly sink frequently in training. i bench to the bottom of my sternum roughly but in a shirt it was lower than that.

The reason I want to see changes in arching, is to get rid of the extreme arches of some of the Japanese female lifters. They've managed to arch so extreme, that it's basically only a slight twist of their shoulders and elbows to get the bar to touch. But the kind of arching you do, that's perfectly fine IMO.

As far as the uneven lockout, or not allowing for lowering the bar, it doesn't make the lift any easier. So why not allow it?

When the general public see a powerlifting meet, it should be fairly easy to understand why a lift isn't passed IMO.


-Hedge
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« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2007, 01:15:18 PM »

The reason I want to see changes in arching, is to get rid of the extreme arches of some of the Japanese female lifters. They've managed to arch so extreme, that it's basically only a slight twist of their shoulders and elbows to get the bar to touch. But the kind of arching you do, that's perfectly fine IMO.



It really seems to me that the extreme arch that some of these women do actually decreases the maximum weights they can use.  It shortens the stroke, but it also decreases the mechanical advantages of the lats and the legs.  Not to mention the question of if their glutes are on the bench or not. 

There was one woman (I cant remember her name, but I think she was Japanese or Chinese) who really looked to me like she had her glutes off the bench, but it got passed in an IPF contest. 

I wish I could remember her name.......... 
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« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2007, 01:17:18 PM »

The reason I want to see changes in arching, is to get rid of the extreme arches of some of the Japanese female lifters. They've managed to arch so extreme, that it's basically only a slight twist of their shoulders and elbows to get the bar to touch. But the kind of arching you do, that's perfectly fine IMO.

As far as the uneven lockout, or not allowing for lowering the bar, it doesn't make the lift any easier. So why not allow it?

When the general public see a powerlifting meet, it should be fairly easy to understand why a lift isn't passed IMO.


-Hedge

sounds good to me. i do agree that it does get rather extreme, but it's tricky to make a rule for that. as far as i can tell that's where the belly rule came into place but outside of that it's hard to make a rule that limits the amount of bend in one's back.

i'm ambivalent on uneven lockout, but on that second point about understanding why a lift isn't passed, but just by their own devices they don't see a huge difference between a paused bench and touch and go, nor do they understand what a hitch is.
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« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2007, 01:39:33 PM »

It really seems to me that the extreme arch that some of these women do actually decreases the maximum weights they can use.  It shortens the stroke, but it also decreases the mechanical advantages of the lats and the legs.  Not to mention the question of if their glutes are on the bench or not. 

There was one woman (I cant remember her name, but I think she was Japanese or Chinese) who really looked to me like she had her glutes off the bench, but it got passed in an IPF contest. 

I wish I could remember her name.......... 

 Yukako Fukushima?

She got redlighted through all her three lifts at the world champs in Stockholm in 2005, for not touching her ass in the bench.

She would not be able at all to lift the kind of weights she does (250+ lbs in the 105 lbs class) if she would have to lift off the weight on her own.

It's a bit of a problem. Taking away the hand off will make the benchpress quite difficult, but it would remove the extreme arches.

We're talking extreme arching, not big arches like most benchpressers do.

-Hedge
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« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2007, 05:35:15 PM »

take away the handoff and my max is gonna go way down. i take a handoff for anything over 275 because it's physically impossible for me to do so myself while maintaining my shoulder blades pinched back and any semblance of an arch in my lower back. it'd be like forcing squatters to lift the bar off the supports while leaning forward at a 30 degree angle, your body is just at a horrendous place mechanically when it comes to taking the bar off the supports. it's not like a walkout, because in a walkout you still pick the bar up from a mechanically advantageous position, it's just getting into your stance that's tricky then.
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2007, 12:21:46 AM »

Taking away the handoff is the worst idea I've ever heard.
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2007, 12:56:38 AM »

Taking away the handoff is the worst idea I've ever heard.
I love it. Come on: it's about lifting a weight out of a rack at arms length. How hard can that be?
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« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2007, 02:45:39 AM »

I think the handoff should stay, and I'm not sure about if that will be a new rule, I know it was up for discussion at least.

The lift will be very difficult without the handoff, then again, somehow it does make sense that you should do the lift by yourself, from the start.

It would be interesting to see a RAW federation incorporate such a rule. I'm sure lifters would get accustumed after awhile, the numbers would definitely go down at first, but I'm not so sure that injuries would increase.

But like I said, I would be interested to see it on a trial basis only.

-Hedge
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« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2007, 06:00:30 AM »

I think the handoff should stay, and I'm not sure about if that will be a new rule, I know it was up for discussion at least.

The lift will be very difficult without the handoff, then again, somehow it does make sense that you should do the lift by yourself, from the start.

It would be interesting to see a RAW federation incorporate such a rule. I'm sure lifters would get accustumed after awhile, the numbers would definitely go down at first, but I'm not so sure that injuries would increase.

But like I said, I would be interested to see it on a trial basis only.

-Hedge
What is so difficult about not getting a hand-off? Seems to me most people use it as a crutch. Now, I am not a great bencher by anyone's standards, but can easily unrack 450+ AND stay in position. Note: my raw max at the moment is only 370-ish.
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« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2007, 12:49:09 PM »

Some guys have short arms and in some competitions they can't move the bench rack height so you must get a hand off. i don't see a problem with it, as long as you "press" the weight you are doing a bench press.

some gyms don't have adjustable bench rack height either so if you have short arms how the fuck are you supposed to unrack heavy weight in a safe manner with your shoulders back and a good arch?

it's really a non-issue.

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« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2007, 02:25:10 PM »

Some guys have short arms and in some competitions they can't move the bench rack height so you must get a hand off. i don't see a problem with it, as long as you "press" the weight you are doing a bench press.

some gyms don't have adjustable bench rack height either so if you have short arms how the fuck are you supposed to unrack heavy weight in a safe manner with your shoulders back and a good arch?

it's really a non-issue.

Cool

Come think of it, that rule was never put into effect in the IPF. There's been a few changes though, to get rid of the Extreme Japs.

Eg, the press signal again being used, the head has to touch and the whole sole has to be touching.

Things like that.

Some things have been made more liberal, eg uneven press is allowed, it's only the lockout that has to be even. I'm sure that may change in the future as well.

In the squat and deadlift, you're allowed to pause the bar on the way up, but you're not allowed to lower it, ie hitch it. That's a change for the better.

-Hedge
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« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2007, 03:02:55 PM »

Come think of it, that rule was never put into effect in the IPF. There's been a few changes though, to get rid of the Extreme Japs.

Eg, the press signal again being used, the head has to touch and the whole sole has to be touching.

Things like that.

Some things have been made more liberal, eg uneven press is allowed, it's only the lockout that has to be even. I'm sure that may change in the future as well.

In the squat and deadlift, you're allowed to pause the bar on the way up, but you're not allowed to lower it, ie hitch it. That's a change for the better.

-Hedge
I dont see the point of not allowing your head to raise.  I can understand the flat feet as that will make the extreme arching almost impossible but the head thing doesnt make sense.
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« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2007, 03:07:20 PM »

I dont see the point of not allowing your head to raise.  I can understand the flat feet as that will make the extreme arching almost impossible but the head thing doesnt make sense.

I've been thinking about the reason for it during the last 5 months, and haven't been able to come up with a good explanation. Grin

My guess is that this rule will be removed next year or so though, because it doesn't make sense. Nobody gets it. It's not you or I who are stupid. Wink

-Hedge
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« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2007, 03:45:55 PM »

Since it was mentioned in this thread, I thought I'd post Mike "Mule" Miller's squat as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwNlUTekYWA

He later asked for the record to be removed. Standup move.


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« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2007, 05:04:33 PM »

What is so difficult about not getting a hand-off? Seems to me most people use it as a crutch. Now, I am not a great bencher by anyone's standards, but can easily unrack 450+ AND stay in position. Note: my raw max at the moment is only 370-ish.

well... how is it a crutch? if it's a raw press, what's the problem? good for you being able to unrack 450+ and stay in position. i can't, but i'm still lowering the bar to my chest and pressing it up all on my own.
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« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2007, 11:02:31 PM »

well... how is it a crutch? if it's a raw press, what's the problem? good for you being able to unrack 450+ and stay in position. i can't, but i'm still lowering the bar to my chest and pressing it up all on my own.
Well, looking at it from that position I would assume that you also prefer the monolift? (No attack; serious question)

I prefer as little interference as possible. I do not want to be a strong squatter only when I have a monolift at my disposal. Nor do I want to be a strong bencher only when I have my favorite hand-off guy. I want to be strong always and under all conditions. Meets, gyms, wherever. The bigger the reliance on assistance, the weaker I will be when I suddenly do not have that assistance.

Plus it's easy at meets: I just show up all alone and don't have to worry about handling at all. Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2007, 04:22:44 AM »

Sorry.  The handoff in a bench press is not the same as a monolift.  The squat is a lift that you should be able to walk the weight out that you squat with.  A handoff in the bench is a safety issue.  Not taking a handoff on a max bench attempt is just plain stupid.  Your shoulders and whole body for that matter, are at a mechanical disadvantage taking the bar off a rack at that angle.  Raw or shirted.  ANYONE should be able to walk out what they can squat.  That is my opinion and that is why I only compete in push/pull meets now.  There is too much banter over what is a legal squat and what is legal equipment....Let alone the Monolift and guys that couldnt squat 500 raw but put up 800 or over squats.  I think its bullshit.........Handoff s in the benchpress are perfectly acceptable and should be part of any feds rules.  The Monolift is going to stay but I dont agree with it.
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« Reply #118 on: April 30, 2007, 06:56:12 AM »

A handoff in the bench is a safety issue.  Not taking a handoff on a max bench attempt is just plain stupid.  Your shoulders and whole body for that matter, are at a mechanical disadvantage taking the bar off a rack at that angle.  Raw or shirted.
Nonsense. I will agree that 99.99% of all lifters (PL or otherwise) have no idea how to properly take the bar out of the rack. But ignorance in no excuse. It is definitely possible, but it has to be trained. It is a skill like everything else. By "mechanical disadvantage" I am assuming you mean shoulder rotation? With proper technique your shoulder will start off in the lockout position. It can be learnt, just like anything else.
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« Reply #119 on: April 30, 2007, 02:32:06 PM »

Nonsense. I will agree that 99.99% of all lifters (PL or otherwise) have no idea how to properly take the bar out of the rack. But ignorance in no excuse. It is definitely possible, but it has to be trained. It is a skill like everything else. By "mechanical disadvantage" I am assuming you mean shoulder rotation? With proper technique your shoulder will start off in the lockout position. It can be learnt, just like anything else.

Or he could mean a disadvantage of the small pectoralis minor with arms over head, increasing the likelyhood of a tear. 

Look, anyone can un-rack 300lbs.  That's not the thing.  If you think Mendy should have to pull 700lbs off the rack on a raw attempt, you're thinking about two different worlds.

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« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2007, 04:13:21 PM »

Nonsense. I will agree that 99.99% of all lifters (PL or otherwise) have no idea how to properly take the bar out of the rack. But ignorance in no excuse. It is definitely possible, but it has to be trained. It is a skill like everything else. By "mechanical disadvantage" I am assuming you mean shoulder rotation? With proper technique your shoulder will start off in the lockout position. It can be learnt, just like anything else.
THat is completely false.  Almost any bench that you use you will have to actually press the bar a little to get it out of the uprights.
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« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2007, 04:17:28 PM »

Also you are pulling a loaded bar over your face.  That is a safety issue. 
     
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« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2007, 04:24:04 AM »

Well, you do of course have to press the bar up a little bit when unracking it. However, please note I mentioned shoulder rotation, not arm extension. Two completely different things. And I can't see straightening your arms the top 2" as something dangerous.

And when you do it properly you do not pull the bar over your face. At least: not in the sense that you rotate you shoulders.
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« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2007, 02:04:38 PM »

Look.  When going for a max single in the bench, shirted or raw, it makes much more sense to have somone hand the bar off to you.  I also cant see how it would take away from the lift since you still have to bring the weight down to the body and press it back up then rerack it.  The monolift however takes so much out of the actual squat.
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« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2007, 05:03:34 PM »

Well, you do of course have to press the bar up a little bit when unracking it. However, please note I mentioned shoulder rotation, not arm extension. Two completely different things. And I can't see straightening your arms the top 2" as something dangerous.

And when you do it properly you do not pull the bar over your face. At least: not in the sense that you rotate you shoulders.

Do you have any understanding of anatomy and physiology? 
Have you even heard the word "biomechanics?"

If by "rotate your shoulders," you mean the acromioclavicular joint, then you most certainly understand how dangerous that is, and what a mechanical disadvantage that joint is in during that situation.

If by "rotate your shoulders," you mean something else...then you don't understand the physiology of the shoulder joint, and I can just skip over your posts, understanding you are ignorant in the matter.
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