Author Topic: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?  (Read 26049 times)

student

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2007, 08:31:01 AM »
not every one is getting de la hoya money.  there are a lot of fighters getting their asses kick for three hundred bucks all over the mid west. Plenty of pro's still work full time jobs because they have to.  Promoters, managers , trainers and advisers rape fighters of their money and leave them will not even a pot to piss in. Tyson was a idiot, yet he is the highest grossing fighter of all time.  He filed bankruptcy. Tarver was the undisputed light heavyweight of the world and he had to declare bankruptcy a few years ago.  For every rags to riches tale you hear there are a million stories of fighter exploitation.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2007, 08:43:20 AM »
not every one is getting de la hoya money.  there are a lot of fighters getting their asses kick for three hundred bucks all over the mid west. Plenty of pro's still work full time jobs because they have to.  Promoters, managers , trainers and advisers rape fighters of their money and leave them will not even a pot to piss in. Tyson was a idiot, yet he is the highest grossing fighter of all time.  He filed bankruptcy. Tarver was the undisputed light heavyweight of the world and he had to declare bankruptcy a few years ago.  For every rags to riches tale you hear there are a million stories of fighter exploitation.

this is very true, except, you don't really believe tarver and tyson are broke do you?

btw, imo tyson was the best managed fighter of all time prior to king ie when he was with jacobs and cayton. jews are fucking experts at management and finance. from picking the fights, training, frequency of fights, etc, i can't fault them.

problem was, tyson was so well managed he was spoilt rotten. the guy didn't have a clue how to deal with the sharks, enter don king.


VY_BUFF

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2007, 09:11:51 AM »
MMA is hardcore
Reason why it doesn't make as much money as boxing is because a US senator McCain thought the UFC was too violent for the US.  MMA was crazy popular in Japan and Brazil before the UFC came back.

Mirko Crocop

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Tyson was a great boxer but he was a thug inside out
Crocop was a guy that they called when there was terrorist situation
This was a military man; this guy was trained to take away a human life with his bare hands and feet
And if you think Bob Sapp was a bad ass, Crocop broke his face with one punch.

http://youtube.com/watch_fullscreen?video_id=IP1TMxH8jwI&l=357&t=OEgsToPDskLhVttoH0EeZ626Uu6IzIM6&sk=HpPM-dSfdtPjEn6MzR9rawU&fs=1&title=Mirko%20'Cro%20Cop'%20by%20Wamrage

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2007, 10:31:45 AM »
this is very true, except, you don't really believe tarver and tyson are broke do you?

btw, imo tyson was the best managed fighter of all time prior to king ie when he was with jacobs and cayton. jews are fucking experts at management and finance. from picking the fights, training, frequency of fights, etc, i can't fault them.

problem was, tyson was so well managed he was spoilt rotten. the guy didn't have a clue how to deal with the sharks, enter don king.


The problem with Tyson is that the core people who managed his career early on actually loved him and cared for him...then they died in a short period of time. D'Amato and then Cayton. After that...enter Don King.
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Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2007, 10:49:08 AM »
Respect BOTH sports for the combative art they are!  >:(
Two of THE GREATEST in their respective art. Fedor stands NO chance against Ali in boxing, and Ali NO chance against Fedor under PRIDE/UFC rules.

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dragonheart

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2007, 10:53:17 AM »
UFC is ruining America.  I see so many 160lb wannabes with a shaved head, goatee, pale as a sheet skin tone, and tattoos so you know they're bad.  They come in the gym with a hoodie pulled over their head and do some cardio and shadow boxing.  Nothing is gayer.  Well, maybe a fratboy in a pink shirt but thats it.

onlyme

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2007, 10:54:45 AM »
The problem with Tyson is that the core people who managed his career early on actually loved him and cared for him...then they died in a short period of time. D'Amato and then Cayton. After that...enter Don King.

It really went downhill for Mike when Rooney was no longer in his corner.  He hired those stupid black guys that knew nothign about boxing.  Mike actually called my uncle to manage him back in 88 or 89.  He said no didn't have time.  Kind of wish he did, I am pretty sure Mike wouldn't be in such financial problems.  King fucks with everyone

americanbulldog

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2007, 11:58:06 AM »
Chuck has pretty poor submission skills but walks through the UFC. I'm not saying boxers are better, Fedor is my favorite fighter for any sport. I'm just asking the question, why are we always putting a boxer in an MMA fight and not the other way around? Why should we even compare?

Put Fedor in a boxing match with a heavyweight champ, and he loses. Badly.

I'd still rather have Fedors skills though since it comes in handier.




Chuck is a purple in BJJ under Jon Lewis, Nova Uniao.  He doesn't show sub skills, but has excellent sub defense.  Other than the first Horn fight, when was he subbed.  Chuck does well because he fights wrestling based fighters who chase him.  NOW we will get to see him against more striking based fighters who will stand in front of him and not chase him for the shot.  Whats the point of comparing one aspect of combat to a totality?  Makes no sense to me.  The specialist, under the specialists rules always wins.  Put Michael Jordan up against Steve Kerr in three point shooting, who wins?  In the totality of the game, who wins?  Fedor is the better fighter than any heavyweight boxer, PERIOD.  Have him fight a boxing match, he wouldn't even be Olympic level.  PBF, who talked mad chit about MMA would get schooled by Kid, Shaolin, Sherk, Aoki, Penn, et al. 

BEAST 8692

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2007, 07:45:08 AM »
The problem with Tyson is that the core people who managed his career early on actually loved him and cared for him...then they died in a short period of time. D'Amato and then Cayton. After that...enter Don King.

they didn't 'love him' or 'care for him'. if they did they would have made sure he was prepared for the real world and live a life after the ring.

what they did was make millions from his propensity for violence and attempt to create the ultimate fighting machine.

what occurred was a train wreck that hasn't quite ended yet (much to everyone involved's continuing embarrassment).

btw, it was jacobs that had somewhat of a personal relationship with tyson and died after d'amato, not cayton.

cayton had as little personal interaction with tyson as possible.

maybe that was one of the reasons why he left cayton after jacobs died.

king is extremely shrewd and observed how jacobs managed (hands on) tyson. becoming best friends with tyson (brutha love) whilst taking over management was a brilliant move on his part. hell, he even had tyson and some close friends move in with him - TEAM TYSON did EVERYTHING tyson wanted them to do, which was a big mistake.

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TheEgoCrusher

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2007, 08:17:03 AM »
Do you all realize what a REAL heavyweight fighter like Lennox Lewis would do to ANYONE from the UFC?

Those guys in the UFC can not TAKE A PUNCH like one he would hand them.  That's the biggest difference.  One punch from a REAL HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER and anyone in the UFC is out.  With Lewis' reach advantage due to his height, I'd say no one in the UFC could take him out.  You all can throw this "get him to the ground" crap out there all you want, but his reach would keep people away.

I know a guy who's ranked in the top-10 in his class for UFC that lives here on and off.  He basically says that the punching power is the difference.  They can't take a hit like that.  He said if you matched up weight-classes the professional boxer would win 9 out of 10 times if they fought smart.

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2007, 08:36:34 AM »
Do you all realize what a REAL heavyweight fighter like Lennox Lewis would do to ANYONE from the UFC?

Those guys in the UFC can not TAKE A PUNCH like one he would hand them.  That's the biggest difference.  One punch from a REAL HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER and anyone in the UFC is out.  With Lewis' reach advantage due to his height, I'd say no one in the UFC could take him out.  You all can throw this "get him to the ground" crap out there all you want, but his reach would keep people away.

I know a guy who's ranked in the top-10 in his class for UFC that lives here on and off.  He basically says that the punching power is the difference.  They can't take a hit like that.  He said if you matched up weight-classes the professional boxer would win 9 out of 10 times if they fought smart.
Wrong. You can't avoid a takedown from a great grappler when you don't know how defend against it, and it is a one-on-one scenario where the grappler knows he's fighting on a nice soft surface.

Tito Ortiz is nowhere near the best mma fighter. However in a fight with mma rules I'd give Lennox about two minutes before Lennox would be choked out. The time it takes Tito to walk across the ring and secure the choke.

Boxers definitely punch with devastating power. However, as I said before they are not prepared to defend a takedown. In addition, every punch they throw in a boxing match is not a blow with knockout power. They are used to accumulating points and inflicting damage over time due to the accumulation of punches. That is what happens when you use boxing gloves.

Lennox against a top mma fighter with a great ground game would flick a couple of light jabs that may or may not be eaten but the mma guy would still close in and get a takedown. Once on the ground, it's light's out...game over. Why do you think no heavyweight boxing champ ever took the Gracie's challenges? I bet Royce would be willing to fight Lennox under mma rules right now for $1million. Would Lennox take the challenge if it would be so easy? No.
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The Ugly

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2007, 08:47:40 AM »
Do you all realize what a REAL heavyweight fighter like Lennox Lewis would do to ANYONE from the UFC?

Agreed, but how about Lennox and Couture, wrestling only? MMA clearly deduces the better (indeed smarter) overall fighter. Truer test of the man.

Has this ever really been in question?

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2007, 08:49:29 AM »
Agreed, but how about Lennox and Couture, wrestling only? MMA clearly deduces the better (indeed smarter) fighter. Truer test of the man.

Has this ever really been in question?
It doesn't have to be "wrestling only". Once again...
Quote
Why do you think no heavyweight boxing champ ever took the Gracie's challenges? I bet Royce would be willing to fight Lennox under mma rules right now for $1million. Would Lennox take the challenge if it would be so easy? No.

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The Ugly

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2007, 08:51:38 AM »
The test as I see it: Who wins at the bar?

Thin Lizzy

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2007, 08:53:23 AM »
Do you all realize what a REAL heavyweight fighter like Lennox Lewis would do to ANYONE from the UFC?


This is Renzo Grace vs. Maurice Smith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe46MmMp6-0

Here's some background on Maurice Smith, one of the greatest heavyweight kickboxers ever. Renzo is about 5'10, 180lbs.

Maurice "Mo" Smith (born December 13, 1961) 6'2" 220lbs is first and foremost a kickboxer with a great career in kickboxing, before he crossed over to MMA. He won his first professional world title in 1983 for the W.K.C. World Kickboxing Council against then World Light-Heavyweight champoin Tony Morelli out of Canada, in Hawaii for his title, Maurice won in the seventh round with a kick knock-out, then later that year he won another title for the W.K.A. World Kickboxing Association for their Heavyweight title against then champion out of Mexico, Travis Everett with low kicks KO. Then he went almost 10 years undefeated.

Maurice Smith's punching power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cZY5I8BkRE

The Ugly

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2007, 08:53:51 AM »
It doesn't have to be "wrestling only". Once again...


I don't think we disagree.

The Ugly

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2007, 08:57:37 AM »
What if Mr. Olympia were a 'Best Biceps' contest? Kinda what we're talking here.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2007, 09:25:00 AM »
Wrong. You can't avoid a takedown from a great grappler when you don't know how defend against it, and it is a one-on-one scenario where the grappler knows he's fighting on a nice soft surface.

Tito Ortiz is nowhere near the best mma fighter. However in a fight with mma rules I'd give Lennox about two minutes before Lennox would be choked out. The time it takes Tito to walk across the ring and secure the choke.

Boxers definitely punch with devastating power. However, as I said before they are not prepared to defend a takedown. In addition, every punch they throw in a boxing match is not a blow with knockout power. They are used to accumulating points and inflicting damage over time due to the accumulation of punches. That is what happens when you use boxing gloves.

Lennox against a top mma fighter with a great ground game would flick a couple of light jabs that may or may not be eaten but the mma guy would still close in and get a takedown. Once on the ground, it's light's out...game over. Why do you think no heavyweight boxing champ ever took the Gracie's challenges? I bet Royce would be willing to fight Lennox under mma rules right now for $1million. Would Lennox take the challenge if it would be so easy? No.

sorry, not that simple

1. lewis has stopped guys much much much (add in 100 more much's) better fighters than tito within one minute of the first round as have many other fighters, so that kills the blanco 'accumulation' theory right there.

2. tito ALWAYS wears strikes whilst trying to get in. he is NOT going to wear a strike from lennox. prime lennox would hit tito harder than he's ever been hit before (including car crashes).

3. you are not going to simply shoot in on lennox. sorry, but if billy blow fly smith can tag tito coming in, put the house, your mother and everything else you own on lennox catching him coming him coming in, then refer to point 2.

4. lennox is a huge (6'5" 260lb),very strong, very athletic hw. tito is NOT going to walk over and take him down with ease...please, that's just silly.

5. lennox has excellent movement laterally, forward, back, etc whilst staying extremely well balanced. if all you've got is a shoot then, basically, you're a dead man walking. lewis is precision point accurate and he will see you coming from next week.

what you need to understand here is that a professional fighter of any potential will ALWAYS go where the money is. it's not hard to figure out, make hay while the sun shines because your career is not going to last forever.

this means that the only guys that go to the ufc are rejects, has beens and never weres. the ufc is the trailer trash of the fight business, no secret there.

for fuck's sake, the ufc hw champ only gets a few grand for a fight, of which he has to pay expenses.  

this is why dana white keeps recycling the same fighters over and over again. everyone else is fighting for chump change.

i have no problem with you getting your facts wrong about tyson's managers, but please don't mention tito ortiz and lennox lewis in the same sentence again.

thank you.
 

Mike

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2007, 10:54:00 AM »


for fuck's sake, the ufc hw champ only gets a few grand for a fight, of which he has to pay expenses.  


Try again.

Also, the sport is growing and so is the purse.  With UFC buying Pride look for better fighters and more money.

I do agree with all your other points.

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2007, 01:18:36 PM »
sorry, not that simple

1. lewis has stopped guys much much much (add in 100 more much's) better fighters than tito within one minute of the first round as have many other fighters, so that kills the blanco 'accumulation' theory right there.

2. tito ALWAYS wears strikes whilst trying to get in. he is NOT going to wear a strike from lennox. prime lennox would hit tito harder than he's ever been hit before (including car crashes).

3. you are not going to simply shoot in on lennox. sorry, but if billy blow fly smith can tag tito coming in, put the house, your mother and everything else you own on lennox catching him coming him coming in, then refer to point 2.

4. lennox is a huge (6'5" 260lb),very strong, very athletic hw. tito is NOT going to walk over and take him down with ease...please, that's just silly.

5. lennox has excellent movement laterally, forward, back, etc whilst staying extremely well balanced. if all you've got is a shoot then, basically, you're a dead man walking. lewis is precision point accurate and he will see you coming from next week.

what you need to understand here is that a professional fighter of any potential will ALWAYS go where the money is. it's not hard to figure out, make hay while the sun shines because your career is not going to last forever.

this means that the only guys that go to the ufc are rejects, has beens and never weres. the ufc is the trailer trash of the fight business, no secret there.

for fuck's sake, the ufc hw champ only gets a few grand for a fight, of which he has to pay expenses.  

this is why dana white keeps recycling the same fighters over and over again. everyone else is fighting for chump change.

i have no problem with you getting your facts wrong about tyson's managers, but please don't mention tito ortiz and lennox lewis in the same sentence again.

thank you.
 
You're not welcome, 'cause you don't know shit.  ::)

Every heavyweight boxing champion of the last 50 years has been challenged by the Gracie family to a fight. Not one of them would take the challenge because they know they would be taken out of their element and choked the fuck out. Your hero Lennox Lewis included.

Try to limit your posts to 50 words or less when you type bullshit. Thanks.  ;)
Ortiz would choke out Lennox in record time. Period.
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Earl1972

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2007, 01:25:07 PM »
they didn't take the challenge because it would be a major pay cut and they didn't care about some silly little guy that wrestles around with men

if i'm lennox lewis I wouldn't waste my time and wouldn't care what people thought because I'd be laughing all the way to the bank with my gauranteed 20 million dollar paycheck while some top mma fighter might be lucky to crack a million depending on ppv buyrates

E


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americanbulldog

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2007, 05:41:45 PM »
they didn't take the challenge because it would be a major pay cut and they didn't care about some silly little guy that wrestles around with men

if i'm lennox lewis I wouldn't waste my time and wouldn't care what people thought because I'd be laughing all the way to the bank with my gauranteed 20 million dollar paycheck while some top mma fighter might be lucky to crack a million depending on ppv buyrates

E




Two reasons why people didn't take Rorion's original challenge.  The million dollars offered by Rorion in Playboy was chump change to someone like Tyson.  If he lost (and he would have), the lossed in revenue by getting beaten by an unknown would have been huge.  It was a win-win for Rorion, knowing Tyson's camp wouldn't accept, and if he did, he had Rickson in the wings waiting to make a name for himself in America. 

No heavyweight boxer would be prepared to sprawl on a good D1 level wrestler.  They'd be on their backs after a jab. 

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2007, 06:16:06 PM »
Two reasons why people didn't take Rorion's original challenge.  The million dollars offered by Rorion in Playboy was chump change to someone like Tyson.  If he lost (and he would have), the lossed in revenue by getting beaten by an unknown would have been huge.  It was a win-win for Rorion, knowing Tyson's camp wouldn't accept, and if he did, he had Rickson in the wings waiting to make a name for himself in America. 

No heavyweight boxer would be prepared to sprawl on a good D1 level wrestler.  They'd be on their backs after a jab. 
The point that economically the money offered the heavyweight champ in a Gracie challenge would be chump change is not in dispute. Everyone knows that. Nevertheless it doesn't nullify my REAL point that one of the reasons they would not take the Gracies challenge is that they would lose. Easily and convincingly.

Boxing fans that don't understand or respect high-level grappling and mma fail to understand how difficult it is to avoid being taken down. A one on one confrontation on a comfortable surface with plenty of space to operate is tailor made for a grappler...and the Gracies (as well as top wrestlers) are MASTERS of that scenario. Lennox Lewis and all his great footwork would be flat on his back shortly against Royce Gracie.
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americanbulldog

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2007, 06:41:21 PM »
The point that economically the money offered the heavyweight champ in a Gracie challenge would be chump change is not in dispute. Everyone knows that. Nevertheless it doesn't nullify my REAL point that one of the reasons they would not take the Gracies challenge is that they would lose. Easily and convincingly.

Boxing fans that don't understand or respect high-level grappling and mma fail to understand how difficult it is to avoid being taken down. A one on one confrontation on a comfortable surface with plenty of space to operate is tailor made for a grappler...and the Gracies (as well as top wrestlers) are MASTERS of that scenario. Lennox Lewis and all his great footwork would be flat on his back shortly against Royce Gracie.


Being a Gracie student and a Relson jockrider, Royce's takedowns were terrible compared to fighters like Kevin Randleman, Matt Lindland, Randy.  No one was prepared for the ground game in 1993.  If we look back and see how easily Royce beat some of the "toughmen" who entered the SEG UFC, we can see that someone like Aoki, Penn, Garcia are light years ahead of them.  As the game continues, better and better athletes will be attracted to the sport.  Being good at all ranges, and mastering one seems to be common thread amongst today's champs.  Like it was previously opined, boxing is like HUGE Biceps, it is only one part of the whole.  So in a boxing match, boxer wins, in an all out fight, where you can be thrown on a fire hydrant in the street, or double legged on the pavement, game over...

Benny B

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Re: Do all MMA and UFC fighters think there "hardcore"?
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2007, 06:46:51 PM »
Being a Gracie student and a Relson jockrider, Royce's takedowns were terrible compared to fighters like Kevin Randleman, Matt Lindland, Randy.  No one was prepared for the ground game in 1993.  If we look back and see how easily Royce beat some of the "toughmen" who entered the SEG UFC, we can see that someone like Aoki, Penn, Garcia are light years ahead of them.  As the game continues, better and better athletes will be attracted to the sport.  Being good at all ranges, and mastering one seems to be common thread amongst today's champs.  Like it was previously opined, boxing is like HUGE Biceps, it is only one part of the whole.  So in a boxing match, boxer wins, in an all out fight, where you can be thrown on a fire hydrant in the street, or double legged on the pavement, game over...
I never suggested Royce had the best takedowns. However, he WOULD take down Lennox Lewis.
I also disagree that on the street the grappler always wins. On the street, grappling ain't always the wisest course of action. Try grappling after a confrontation in a crowded niteclub, and you'd be an idiot. In that environment I'd put my money on a pro boxer.  ;)
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