Author Topic: Legitimate arguements aganst science...  (Read 7566 times)

_Morrison_

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2007, 11:00:31 AM »
You know what funny is we can make the same arguement. Even though I'm no more a scientist than you are, there are plenty of explainations that creationists have that science cannot explain, the fact that ANYTHING can be disputed is one thing, but whe "scientists" have no explaination for facts that are presented is another.

I have read some of the science and it's rhetoric, just like when James Cameron claimed to have found the bones of Jesus, when he said to have all this scientific evidence, it was QUICKLY dismissed by other scientists.

BTW, I'm willing to bet you didn't read any of the links I posted did you?

Give me one good reason why you believe what you believe.  Is it because that's what you were taught all your life?  Or is it due to that fact that you are closed minded as well?  Science can't explain certain things... yet.  But creationism does no better at it.  Rather than trying to explain it (or admitting that you don't know), creationism leaves all the weird science-y stuff up to a pneumatic father figure that'll burn you if you question or defy him.  That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Wikidudeman

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2007, 11:10:40 AM »
Evolution has been pretty much proven to be a fact, the only thing that could disprove it would be a "Static fossil" as you put it that is completely separate from the rest of the gene pool.  This, however would obviously point to an E.T. species is one would leave creationism out of the equation.  The only other explanation would be that the creature or organism came from a Galapagos-like place and has millions of years to be so far ahead of the rest, that too is also unlikely yet possible.

What I meant by "Static fossil record" was a fossil record that didn't show any evolutionary change. For instance seeing humans in the fossil record in present form all throughout earths history would disprove evolution (as it's currently theorized).


Over the course of mankind, we have pretty much explored all the fossils, species, and the like on land (And yet as far as I know we still haven't found a static fossil), the only place that we have left to discover on Earth is the sea, which we have only explored 10% of.

I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume we've explored all of the fossils. There are likely many many more out there to discover. I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "static fossil record".




The universe is a big place, and you'd have to be retarded to blindly hold on to the theory that we are the only intelligent life out there because the universe is infinite.

I agree that it would be very chauvinistic to believe life on earth is the only life in the Universe, However I do not believe the universe is 'infinite'. It's currently expanding and 'infinity' really can't 'expand'.



Wikidudeman

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2007, 11:18:52 AM »
Give me one good reason why you believe what you believe.  Is it because that's what you were taught all your life?  Or is it due to that fact that you are closed minded as well?  Science can't explain certain things... yet.  But creationism does no better at it.  Rather than trying to explain it (or admitting that you don't know), creationism leaves all the weird science-y stuff up to a pneumatic father figure that'll burn you if you question or defy him.  That makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't know what Mr. Intenseone believes, but creationism is the belief that humans, life, the earth and the universe was created by a supernatural deity (in his case Yahweh if he is a Christian or a Jew, Allah if Muslim). Biblical creationists believe that the universe and earth was created in 6 days and humans were created in the current form as well as all life on earth today. I guess he will have to specify his beliefs, but I am assuming he is a biblical young earth creationist. Someone who believes the earth was created by a God about 6,000 years ago and humans and all other life on earth was created in current form and that Evolution(at least macro) does not occur.

_Morrison_

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2007, 02:41:37 PM »
I don't know what Mr. Intenseone believes, but creationism is the belief that humans, life, the earth and the universe was created by a supernatural deity (in his case Yahweh if he is a Christian or a Jew, Allah if Muslim). Biblical creationists believe that the universe and earth was created in 6 days and humans were created in the current form as well as all life on earth today. I guess he will have to specify his beliefs, but I am assuming he is a biblical young earth creationist. Someone who believes the earth was created by a God about 6,000 years ago and humans and all other life on earth was created in current form and that Evolution(at least macro) does not occur.

I concur.
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_Morrison_

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 02:43:41 PM »

I agree that it would be very chauvinistic to believe life on earth is the only life in the Universe, However I do not believe the universe is 'infinite'. It's currently expanding and 'infinity' really can't 'expand'.


But what's outside of it's expanding boundaries?  What void is it filling by expanding?  For it to expand, it has to have space to expand to.

Oh and sorry I misunderstood your meaning of "Static Fossil".
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beatmaster

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2007, 02:56:49 PM »


hmmmmmmmm, what about dinosaurs, caveman, etc? are they 6000 years old, or all the scientists are wrong?.

what about all the asteroids, comets that pass by every 10,000 years, are they wrong again?
if the light from a star take 100,000 years to get here, how come we can see it if the earth and everything else is 6000 years old? (nobody can denied the speed of light!!!, thats science).

prove this wrong, then maybe we can talk about creation!!!
creationist have no proof what so ever!!!........ its a story........ a book!
are you delusional?

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2007, 05:33:07 PM »
Evolution has been pretty much proven to be a fact, the only thing that could disprove it would be a "Static fossil" as you put it that is completely separate from the rest of the gene pool.  This, however would obviously point to an E.T. species is one would leave creationism out of the equation.  The only other explanation would be that the creature or organism came from a Galapagos-like place and has millions of years to be so far ahead of the rest, that too is also unlikely yet possible.  Over the course of mankind, we have pretty much explored all the fossils, species, and the like on land (And yet as far as I know we still haven't found a static fossil), the only place that we have left to discover on Earth is the sea, which we have only explored 10% of.

The universe is a big place, and you'd have to be retarded to blindly hold on to the theory that we are the only intelligent life out there because the universe is infinite.  Even if we go beyond what is outside of our galaxy, there will still be something beyond it, and so on and so forth.  What lies beyond the universe as we know it?  I have no idea, but everything that has boundaries has something beyond those boundaries.  There certainly can't be nothing because if there was nothing beyond the boundaries of the universe then the universe wouldn't be the universe now would it?  So how can anyone argue that life aside from humanity is not possible within this seemingly infinite place in which we live?

when you say the universe is infinite, your implying no boundary, in this case it goes on forever, with no ending. hence, there is no outside.

however, we are not sure if the universe is infinite or finite in size, it is more then likely similar to the shape of a torus. space can expand endlessly, it is a medium that can be strecthed forever. its hard to explain, paul davies does a good job in his book. the universe being infinite or finite doesnt matter to the concept of god.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2007, 05:34:42 PM »





I agree that it would be very chauvinistic to believe life on earth is the only life in the Universe, However I do not believe the universe is 'infinite'. It's currently expanding and 'infinity' really can't 'expand'.




this is incorrect, infinite can expand. read some mathematics ;D ;D

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 05:50:47 PM »
But what's outside of it's expanding boundaries?  What void is it filling by expanding?  For it to expand, it has to have space to expand to.

Oh and sorry I misunderstood your meaning of "Static Fossil".
know one knows. if string theory is right, into other branes possibly. or inflating into hyperspace via multiverse.

but if this is all that exists, and is infinite it is expanding into nothing, literally nothing. like a ballon, there need be nothing outside the universe. if you went in one direction and travelled far enough in the universe you would come back to the same place like on earth. there is no center also.

there are many competing theories. but infinite can expand, some infinites can be bigger then other infinites.

life is a huge mystery, it just boggles my mind. the more i learn about science, the more boggled my mind becomes, its ripe with paradoxes.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2007, 06:21:57 PM »
when you say the universe is infinite, your implying no boundary, in this case it goes on forever, with no ending. hence, there is no outside.

however, we are not sure if the universe is infinite or finite in size, it is more then likely similar to the shape of a torus. space can expand endlessly, it is a medium that can be strecthed forever. its hard to explain, paul davies does a good job in his book. the universe being infinite or finite doesnt matter to the concept of god.


I'll have to read that sometime.  But the definition of "universe" is everything that exists... everything.  So if it is expanding, then there has to be somewhere for it to expand to, which would already be a part of the universe anyway assuming it exists.  For there to be boundaries, there has to be something outside those boundaries, making the universe infinite.  Or maybe there's an infinite multi-verse, either way, we'll probably never know.
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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2007, 06:38:53 AM »

I'll have to read that sometime.  But the definition of "universe" is everything that exists... everything.  So if it is expanding, then there has to be somewhere for it to expand to, which would already be a part of the universe anyway assuming it exists.  For there to be boundaries, there has to be something outside those boundaries, making the universe infinite.  Or maybe there's an infinite multi-verse, either way, we'll probably never know.

thats one definition of the universe, but its a problem with semantics. the universe is all we are privy to by most. for example if string theory, perhaps the leading cosmological(physics) model of the universe is correct. there are many universes or branes, each with weird properties. quantum gravity will tell us if this theory is correct. so the definition of all that exists is incorrect, because there are seperate universes or branes, which are all part of the megabrane.

multiverse, as the name implies , assumes multiple universes. therefore the universe(singular) cannot be all that exists if it's talked about in a plural sense. i would say that the universe is more so all that exists in which we can navigate and measure. due to relativity we cant access other universes, so that definition fits better in my mind.

im not sure i follow you. infinite has no boundaries. space is and infinite medium that can strecth forever, like thought for example. i cant really describe it properly, but its like imagining ripples in a pond in which you can get creating ripples which expand outwards. but your not depleting a stock amount of ripples. its infinite and can be stretched forever.

im not trying to bust your balls morrison ;D ;D. im just discussing this with you. its and interesting topic.

the only problem is we cant conceptualize infinite nor eternal but yet they exist. which is mindboggling. and we all may not be thinking about then in the right way.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2007, 11:35:49 AM »
thats one definition of the universe, but its a problem with semantics. the universe is all we are privy to by most. for example if string theory, perhaps the leading cosmological(physics) model of the universe is correct. there are many universes or branes, each with weird properties. quantum gravity will tell us if this theory is correct. so the definition of all that exists is incorrect, because there are seperate universes or branes, which are all part of the megabrane.

multiverse, as the name implies , assumes multiple universes. therefore the universe(singular) cannot be all that exists if it's talked about in a plural sense. i would say that the universe is more so all that exists in which we can navigate and measure. due to relativity we cant access other universes, so that definition fits better in my mind.

im not sure i follow you. infinite has no boundaries. space is and infinite medium that can strecth forever, like thought for example. i cant really describe it properly, but its like imagining ripples in a pond in which you can get creating ripples which expand outwards. but your not depleting a stock amount of ripples. its infinite and can be stretched forever.

im not trying to bust your balls morrison ;D ;D. im just discussing this with you. its and interesting topic.

the only problem is we cant conceptualize infinite nor eternal but yet they exist. which is mindboggling. and we all may not be thinking about then in the right way.

It just doesn't seem logical for infinite to expand.  If it's infinite it just goes on forever, which makes sense because that would mean that there are no boundaries, making it impossible to expand because expansion requires boundaries or walls, if you will, to expand on.
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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2007, 03:54:54 PM »
It just doesn't seem logical for infinite to expand.  If it's infinite it just goes on forever, which makes sense because that would mean that there are no boundaries, making it impossible to expand because expansion requires boundaries or walls, if you will, to expand on.

your using euclidian geometry to describe something non-euclidean. infinite can expand. i struggled with it too until i read some mathematics. i cant give you the exact reason off the top of my head. its hard to describe mathematics with words as you lose most of the meaning.

but trust me infinite can expand. and some infinites can be bigger then others.

warrior_code

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2007, 08:59:52 PM »
Have any of you guys seen the argument for intelligent design with regards to the flagella motor? 


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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2007, 06:52:26 AM »
Have any of you guys seen the argument for intelligent design with regards to the flagella motor? 



yes its micheal behe's argument for irreducible complex.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2007, 11:04:00 AM »
your using euclidian geometry to describe something non-euclidean. infinite can expand. i struggled with it too until i read some mathematics. i cant give you the exact reason off the top of my head. its hard to describe mathematics with words as you lose most of the meaning.

but trust me infinite can expand. and some infinites can be bigger then others.

Well seeing as how I'm no mathematician, I'll just leave it at I don't know.
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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2007, 06:50:41 AM »
Well seeing as how I'm no mathematician, I'll just leave it at I don't know.

theres no problem with the universe being either infinite, nor finite. even if we figured out every little detail. the question still remains. WHY? why are we here, why is there anything rather then something. nature has no law which states something must exist. it is equally possible nothing could exist.

Wikidudeman

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2007, 02:42:09 PM »
this is incorrect, infinite can expand. read some mathematics ;D ;D

You're right. However I was referring to the universe.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2007, 02:46:41 PM »
theres no problem with the universe being either infinite, nor finite. even if we figured out every little detail. the question still remains. WHY? why are we here, why is there anything rather then something. nature has no law which states something must exist. it is equally possible nothing could exist.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2007, 04:59:41 PM »
You're right. However I was referring to the universe.

im not sure what you mean. explain if you care too.

Wikidudeman

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2007, 05:01:47 PM »
im not sure what you mean. explain if you care too.

Mathematical abstracts which are infinity can expand. Physical entities can't. The universe can't. This is also evidenced by the fact that we can actually see the edges of the universe, which are of course the background radiation of the big bang, in the past.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2007, 05:05:12 PM »
Have any of you guys seen the argument for intelligent design with regards to the flagella motor? 



the argument is flawed, while still holding merit. we dont exactly know how the flagella came together synergistically, it is a bit of a mystery. we know some of the ways, and mechanisms which are plausible but we dont exactly know the answer. however, this is nothing new in science and i dont see how the conclusion is god did it. perhaps we havent figured it out?

also why would god put together something like a flagella, to which we cannot understand, but yet evolution describes everything else? that makes no sense. also, if you beleive in a cosmic intelligence, then you assume his world is a rational one, hence everything should have a answer or be able to be solved. mysteries are congruent with a god that uses intelligence to create. we might know metaphysical questions, nor can we probe closer then logic, but the natural world is so designed or not designed rationally. i find the argument that the world is rational for no apparent reason as a better arguement for god, einstein shared this sentiment, or i shared his. the is no reason the world should be rational, jsut like there is no law saying something must exist. why do mathematics work? its somewhat tautological but requires and answer like the antrophic principle.

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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2007, 05:07:03 PM »
Mathematical abstracts which are infinity can expand. Physical entities can't. The universe can't. This is also evidenced by the fact that we can actually see the edges of the universe, which are of course the background radiation of the big bang, in the past.

you mean the event horizon?


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Re: Legitimate arguements aganst science...
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2007, 08:12:06 PM »

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation


i know what background radiation is and redshift indicating that the universe is in fact moving away from us hence the observation of redshift(red end of the spectrum). the expansion is likely due to dark matter which is just no being figured out to a degree.

however, we cant "see" the edges of the universe, and background radiation hasnt shown us that the universe has an edge. both the shape or topology of the universe is still unknown. as well, we are not sure if the universe is finite of infinite in size. thats why i said event horizon. its the farthest we can observe, we cannot "see" an edge. and the likely shape of the universe is a torus, similar to a donut. which would have no edge.