The Truth About Raw Foods For Our Dogs and Cats

[~flower~]

some of this stuff is going to take days to read.

Is there cliff notes available?

No, there is no time limit on learning.   

   Feeding is simple, but sorry, no cliff notes on educating yourself.   

[Butterbean]

some really good info here and on the Vaccine Thread too.  Thanks for the time and effort at presenting the information everyone it is very appreciated

[Vet]

No, there is no time limit on learning.   

   Feeding is simple, but sorry, no cliff notes on educating yourself.   

Flower, you've made a couple of very good posts in this thread....especially the one about dogs being carnivores.  I will admit, I was trying to lead you with that question and you shot me down...in a ball of flames.   Very good.   

  I will say I don't disagree with an owner who is willing to take the time to formulate a "homemade"  (I'm changing my terminology here for Knny's benefit) diet that is nutritionally complete for their pets.  The one problem I've encountered with it is the same one I mentioned before, owners, when using these types of diets MUST take the time to formulate a diet that is nutritionally compete for their pets.  Nutrition will not be the be all or end all for preventing disease, but it will help, and considering the recent pet food recall, is something that needs to be looked at very closely by both veterinarians and pet owners.   A well formulated homemade diet is great.  The problem comes with owners who do not take the time to do that and who cut corners or they stubbornly cling to unfounded beleifs that result in nutritional disease in our pets.   Nutritional diseases encountered amoung our pets in the 1930's and 40's have been virtually eliminated with commercial dog foods (I'm refering to ricketts, metabolic bone diseases, and other gross nutritional imbalances).  Unfortunately it appears as if we have come full circle with commercial diets where the manufacturer, or worse yet the manufacturer's suppliers, have managed to cut costs (and enhance profit) in a way that has resulted in the deaths of many family pets.   Its a sad case of the dollar governing things once again with little regard for who or what is hurt.   

The other big problem is human laziness.   Lets be honest, people are lazy.   Thats why ready made meals are such big sellers.   If a person won't cook for themselves, how can you demand that they cook for their pet?   It just doesn't happen that often.   

One study I'd like to see involving homemade diets is the incidence of obesity in relationship to the dog eating only a homemade diet and a dog fed a commerical food with "table scraps".   I'd also like to see the incidence of obesity in domestic cats allowed to hunt (or conversely a diet composed of whole rodents, other mammals and birds---a comparative small cat "wild" diet) as their sole source of food vs domestic cats fed commercial cats.  I'm not aware of such a controlled study existing, but I'll also admit I haven't taken the time to do a full literature search on it.   

[knny187]

The other big problem is human laziness.   Lets be honest, people are lazy.   Thats why ready made meals are such big sellers.   If a person won't cook for themselves, how can you demand that they cook for their pet?   It just doesn't happen that often.   
 

I agree

[~flower~]

Vet, I agree with a lot you said.  Though I think that it is much easier to feed a raw diet than is thought.   A home cooked diet is another story.  That type of diet can easily lead to deficiencies.  I would probably steer someone to a better quality kibble over home cooking. 

  I have come across a few people (no one on here!) that have mentioned raw feeding but I could tell they weren't going to do any research and thought throwing some hamburger down every day would be sufficient.  That makes me cringe. 

  When you say home made, I think cooked, btw.   Raw fed dogs fed raw meaty bones, muscle meat, and some offals, usually are not obese.  I think home cooking which usually includes some grains  or something may lead to obesity.

  The whole point IMO, is to get away from the grains.  Unfortunately kibble needs some kind of grain or something to give it it's shape.   Some of the freeze dried raw products (Wysong) are not that bad, but are costly.  Same with buying preground (Bravo, Oma's, aplaceforpaws).  I bet I can feed my 4 dogs for the same cost or cheaper than if I was feeding them a high quality kibble.  You just have to have a freezer so you can buy in bulk!

[knny187]

I would like to reiterate that....

Raw diets with bones do NOT mean the bones are cooked.


For the longest time, I was one of those people that was afraid of giving a dog a bone because of the horror stories that I would hear (or personally experienced).  We've all heard of a dog swallowing chicken bones, splintering, & then dying....very painfully.

I did NOT know for the longest time...

COOKED bones splinter

RAW bones do not.


I know there's some people on here that already know this....but for those that don't...this is FYI




When making up a raw diet or even as VET suggests "Whole Food" diets...DO NOT cook bones & give them to your dogs.

[Vet]

Vet, I agree with a lot you said.  Though I think that it is much easier to feed a raw diet than is thought.   A home cooked diet is another story.  That type of diet can easily lead to deficiencies.  I would probably steer someone to a better quality kibble over home cooking. 

  I have come across a few people (no one on here!) that have mentioned raw feeding but I could tell they weren't going to do any research and thought throwing some hamburger down every day would be sufficient.  That makes me cringe. 

  When you say home made, I think cooked, btw.   Raw fed dogs fed raw meaty bones, muscle meat, and some offals, usually are not obese.  I think home cooking which usually includes some grains  or something may lead to obesity.

  The whole point IMO, is to get away from the grains.  Unfortunately kibble needs some kind of grain or something to give it it's shape.   Some of the freeze dried raw products (Wysong) are not that bad, but are costly.  Same with buying preground (Bravo, Oma's, aplaceforpaws).  I bet I can feed my 4 dogs for the same cost or cheaper than if I was feeding them a high quality kibble.  You just have to have a freezer so you can buy in bulk!

I apologize for the confusion with terminology.  Unfortunately, I do think what I use may be something that is confusing for the people who post on this board.... 

If one of you wants to take the time to set up some definitions, I'll do what I can to try to keep things consitant with my posts. 

[Vet]

I would like to reiterate that....

Raw diets with bones do NOT mean the bones are cooked.


For the longest time, I was one of those people that was afraid of giving a dog a bone because of the horror stories that I would hear (or personally experienced).  We've all heard of a dog swallowing chicken bones, splintering, & then dying....very painfully.

I did NOT know for the longest time...

COOKED bones splinter

RAW bones do not.


I know there's some people on here that already know this....but for those that don't...this is FYI




When making up a raw diet or even as VET suggests "Whole Food" diets...DO NOT cook bones & give them to your dogs.

The biggest problem with bones isnt' that they splinter but that they can break the dogs teeth or become wedged between the teeth.   I've only removed one "bone intestinal foreign object"---a porkchop bone that wasn't lodged, but did perforate the small intestine-- but I've fixed many a broken tooth and many a dog with an oral abcess from bones wedged in their teeth. 

 I used to give knuckle bones to my pits.... until my male slab fractured his carnasial tooth and I ended up having to pull the tooth.  Hard, large bones, like cow leg bones (even raw bones) can play hell with some dogs teeth--especially those that are really aggressive chewers.   You need to think about that before giving one to your dog.   

And just so you know, I think cow hooves are much, much worse, especially the boiled ones available in pet stores.  They will destroy a dogs teeth.   

[knny187]

The biggest problem with bones isnt' that they splinter but that they can break the dogs teeth or become wedged between the teeth.   I've only removed one "bone intestinal foreign object"---a porkchop bone that wasn't lodged, but did perforate the small intestine-- but I've fixed many a broken tooth and many a dog with an oral abcess from bones wedged in their teeth. 

 I used to give knuckle bones to my pits.... until my male slab fractured his carnasial tooth and I ended up having to pull the tooth.  Hard, large bones, like cow leg bones (even raw bones) can play hell with some dogs teeth--especially those that are really aggressive chewers.   You need to think about that before giving one to your dog.   

And just so you know, I think cow hooves are much, much worse, especially the boiled ones available in pet stores.  They will destroy a dogs teeth.   

True...

I do have to stop & think that one dog I had growing up was an aggressive chewer.  When he was an "old guy" he basically wore his teeth down to the gums.

Never had an oral abcess....but maybe he was lucky.

[Princess L]

Hard, large bones, like cow leg bones (even raw bones) can play hell with some dogs teeth--especially those that are really aggressive chewers.   You need to think about that before giving one to your dog.   

I was wondering about that.  Scout has many of these, and he loves them  ( I believe they're sterilized shin bones).  He is an aggressive chewer when he gets going on them.  They haven't splintered, but he has managed to make groves in them.  Should I take them away?  What would be a good alternative?

[~flower~]

I give them marrow or soup bones.  Mine are mostly concerned with getting the flesh off the bones and the marrow out.  They don't usually try and "eat" them.  After about a week (or when I get sick of kicking them) I throw them out. By then they have started to dry out and they have gnawed down the edges.  I don't like the long femur bones because then they can't get to the marrow as easily and may try and crack them.  Sometimes a femur cut in half is fine though. 

  If your dog trys to actually chew them up, they might not be a good idea except under supervision, but I have had no problems.

  I think Tad makes the bigger dogs jealous because he can get his head in some bones and if not he will stick his paw in, get some marrow, lick it off and repeat. The others rely on their tongues.

[Butterbean]

Tad! lol!

The biggest problem with bones isnt' that they splinter but that they can break the dogs teeth or become wedged between the teeth.   I've only removed one "bone intestinal foreign object"---a porkchop bone that wasn't lodged, but did perforate the small intestine-- but I've fixed many a broken tooth and many a dog with an oral abcess from bones wedged in their teeth. 

 I used to give knuckle bones to my pits.... until my male slab fractured his carnasial tooth and I ended up having to pull the tooth.  Hard, large bones, like cow leg bones (even raw bones) can play hell with some dogs teeth--especially those that are really aggressive chewers.   You need to think about that before giving one to your dog.  

And just so you know, I think cow hooves are much, much worse, especially the boiled ones available in pet stores.  They will destroy a dogs teeth.  

My vet once told me that teeth problems in dogs are not nearly as painful as the same type of problem in a human.  Is this true?

[Butterbean]

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf

This link says you can feed rat carcasses.  RAT CARCASSES?  RAT CARCASSES?

RAT CARCASSES?

[~flower~]

This link says you can feed rat carcasses.  RAT CARCASSES?  RAT CARCASSES?

RAT CARCASSES?

I believe cat and ferret raw feeders feed rats, mice, etc.     

[Vet]

Tad! lol!


My vet once told me that teeth problems in dogs are not nearly as painful as the same type of problem in a human.  Is this true?

I think thats pure bullshit.  I get seriously pissed at veterinarians that make those type of stupid assed statements because it shows an old-school close minded mentality.

The problem with assessing pain in an animal is that we often attempt to assign "human" emotions to that animal with little concern for the animal itself in question.  Teeth in dogs and humnas both contain nerve rich pulp.  The gums contain nerve rich mucosa.  If there is sufficient dental disease that causes exposure of the pulp or that causes significant alteration of the gingival mucosa, then those nerves will be stimulated.    Is it the same pain as a human has?  Its irrelevant, the bottom line is pain nerves will be stimulated.  That warrants pain medication and treatment of the originating cause irrelevant of the species. 

[Vet]

I believe cat and ferret raw feeders feed rats, mice, etc.     

Mice and rats are commonly fed to European ferrets. 

[knny187]

I think thats pure bullshit.  I get seriously pissed at veterinarians that make those type of stupid assed statements because it shows an old-school close minded mentality.

The problem with assessing pain in an animal is that we often attempt to assign "human" emotions to that animal with little concern for the animal itself in question.  Teeth in dogs and humnas both contain nerve rich pulp.  The gums contain nerve rich mucosa.  If there is sufficient dental disease that causes exposure of the pulp or that causes significant alteration of the gingival mucosa, then those nerves will be stimulated.    Is it the same pain as a human has?  Its irrelevant, the bottom line is pain nerves will be stimulated.  That warrants pain medication and treatment of the originating cause irrelevant of the species. 

I think dogs & cats hide pain better than humans.

Whenever a dog or cat (IMO) expressed pain....they were really...really hurt.

really....really

 

[Vet]

I think dogs & cats hide pain better than humans.

Whenever a dog or cat (IMO) expressed pain....they were really...really hurt.

really....really

 

This is true, but you also need to consider that humans are by and large, very,very poor at assessing pain in any species....  including other humans.

I'd rather error on the side of caution with my patients and keep them as comfortable as I can. 

[~flower~]

  EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR IN HIM OR HER; WE JUST HAVE TO HELP IN ITS
WORK. THE NATURAL HEALING FORCE WITHIN EACH ONE OF US IS THE GREATEST
FORCE IN GETTING WELL. OUR FOOD SHOULD BE OUR MEDICINE. OUR MEDICINE
SHOULD BE OUR FOOD. (Hippocrates, a Greek physician, and the Father
of Medicine, 460-377 B.C.)

[Hedgehog]

  I think Tad makes the bigger dogs jealous because he can get his head in some bones and if not he will stick his paw in, get some marrow, lick it off and repeat. The others rely on their tongues.

What makes you think dogs are capable of being jealous?

-Hedge

[Princess L]

I give them marrow or soup bones. 

On the carpet 

[~flower~]

On the carpet 

  Yes.    I find them in the couch and chairs sometimes.   The downstairs is the dog's area.  They (except for Tad if I sleep with him) stay downstairs and are not allowed upstairs.  I have a baby gate that blocks the kitchen off and they are not allowed in there either.  The other 2 downstairs rooms are theirs, the dining and living room. 

  I finally got a new dining room table, a metal one with a glass top that they couldn't chew the legs up!

   I've got to find that sign that says something like 'Dogs Live here, if you don't like it tough" or something like that, because that is the way it is in our house.

 

[~flower~]

  Trying out a new supplier Saturday.  Getting some Tripe,  heart, liver, and beef chunks.

    Picking up 135 pounds, the doggies are gonna love me even more!   


    It's harder to find beef products that won't break the bank so I am hoping this turns out good.
    

[~flower~]

I just picked up 135# of beef products!      I have some yummy tripe defrosting now.  yum yum good stuff! 

 And yesterday I just went to the butcher and picked up 140 pounds of stuff there!!

  My freezer is so full and I still have 40# of chicken that needs to dethaw a bit more so I can break it down!!

   Good thing I have a lock on my freezer, the door won't stay shut!!  (I definitely recommend a freezer with a lock if you have a freezer, you don't close the door completely and you ruin everything in it!)
 
   I will have to put some stuff in the upstairs freezer on the fridge, no way is there room for 40# more pounds in there. 

     I will take a picture later and show everyone what real dog food looks like.

           

[Butterbean]

How much did all that cost?