Author Topic: Prayer and Religion in Public Life  (Read 634675 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #375 on: July 04, 2018, 12:08:45 PM »
This happened in Australia but it showcases how widespread the problem of religious sexual abuse is and how lightly several of these religious abusers are treated. Another case of he's too important to be punished like ordinary people "oh he's too old and frail to go to prison" (we heard similar excuses about Arpaio and other criminals as well). If he's "too old" and "in poor health" then what can be said about his victims?  Certainly they were too young and exploited but that doesn't seem to count when the abuses comes from religious figures and institutions.

Archbishop Philip Wilson sentenced for concealing child sex abuse

A Catholic archbishop in Australia has been given a maximum sentence of 12 months in detention for concealing child sexual abuse in the 1970s. Philip Wilson, now archbishop of Adelaide, is the most senior Catholic globally to be convicted of the crime. He was found guilty by a court last month of covering up abuse by a paedophile priest in New South Wales.

On Tuesday, the court ordered Wilson to be assessed for "home detention" - meaning he will probably avoid jail. Magistrate Robert Stone said the senior clergyman had shown "no remorse or contrition". He will be eligible for parole after six months.

In May, a court found he had failed to report his colleague James Patrick Fletcher's abuse of altar boys to police. Wilson, then a junior priest in the Maitland region, had dismissed young victims in a bid to protect the Church's reputation, Magistrate Stone ruled.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-44692396



What he did was outrageous and inexcusable.  Regarding his sentence, here is the context:  "The archbishop's lawyers had sought to have the case thrown out on four occasions, citing the 67-year-old's diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease."

Skeletor

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #376 on: July 04, 2018, 03:55:10 PM »
What he did was outrageous and inexcusable.  Regarding his sentence, here is the context:  "The archbishop's lawyers had sought to have the case thrown out on four occasions, citing the 67-year-old's diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease."

He didn't seem to have Alzheimer's disease when these abuses happened so he knew what he was doing. He was conveniently diagnosed just before the trial.

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #377 on: July 04, 2018, 06:17:59 PM »
He didn't seem to have Alzheimer's disease when these abuses happened so he knew what he was doing. He was conveniently diagnosed just before the trial.

I have no idea if he is faking it.  If he isn't, I understand why the judge wouldn't put him in prison. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #378 on: July 04, 2018, 07:04:52 PM »
I have no idea if he is faking it.  If he isn't, I understand why the judge wouldn't put him in prison. 

I don't understand why a sexual predator shouldn't be institutionalized under any circumstances. To diagnose Alzheimer disease, doctors do a thorough medical history, mental status and mood testing and a physical and neurological exam. Tests (such as blood tests and brain imaging) are done to rule out other causes of dementia-like symptoms.

Alzheimer disease does not excuse child sexual abuse, IMO. It sickens me when religious leaders and organizations cover up child sexual abuse.

The Catholic religion seems to do this more often than do other churches or maybe it is that sexual abuse is more rampant among Catholic priests. Western or Latin-Rite Church priests and sisters take a vow of celibacy. Imposed celibacy is unnatural and for some unsustainable.

In recent times, the Church has allowed for married priests if they were married prior to becoming Catholic priests. Should their spouses die, they are not permitted to remarry.

Both my children were raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. My son was an altar boy and sang in the choir. As parents, my wife and I made clear to them that certain behavior was not acceptable no matter who the perpetrator was. Father C. was gay. Never did he try any funny business with my son. I know this because my son would have immediately reported it to my wife and me.

If there is a lesson in my post, it is that parents must give their children all the tools and support they need to survive whatever assaults they might encounter.

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #379 on: July 04, 2018, 08:49:48 PM »
I don't understand why a sexual predator shouldn't be institutionalized under any circumstances. To diagnose Alzheimer disease, doctors do a thorough medical history, mental status and mood testing and a physical and neurological exam. Tests (such as blood tests and brain imaging) are done to rule out other causes of dementia-like symptoms.

Alzheimer disease does not excuse child sexual abuse, IMO. It sickens me when religious leaders and organizations cover up child sexual abuse.

The Catholic religion seems to do this more often than do other churches or maybe it is that sexual abuse is more rampant among Catholic priests. Western or Latin-Rite Church priests and sisters take a vow of celibacy. Imposed celibacy is unnatural and for some unsustainable.

In recent times, the Church has allowed for married priests if they were married prior to becoming Catholic priests. Should their spouses die, they are not permitted to remarry.

Both my children were raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. My son was an altar boy and sang in the choir. As parents, my wife and I made clear to them that certain behavior was not acceptable no matter who the perpetrator was. Father C. was gay. Never did he try any funny business with my son. I know this because my son would have immediately reported it to my wife and me.

If there is a lesson in my post, it is that parents must give their children all the tools and support they need to survive whatever assaults they might encounter.

Of course his medical condition does not excuse his conduct.  It's only relevant to what we do with him when he has lost his senses and cannot take of himself.  We don't keep people like that in prison.  If he's a danger to anyone he should be in a medical facility for criminals, not a regular prison. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #380 on: July 04, 2018, 10:59:54 PM »
Of course his medical condition does not excuse his conduct.  It's only relevant to what we do with him when he has lost his senses and cannot take of himself.  We don't keep people like that in prison.  If he's a danger to anyone he should be in a medical facility for criminals, not a regular prison. 

This is why I chose the term institutionalized instead of imprisoned. Someone actually in the later stages of Alzheimer's wouldn't last a day in prison. Putting someone like this in prison would be inhumane. It would save a bunch of taxpayer money though.

I should probably be more sensitive to the subject of Alzheimer's since the older I get, the more likely something like this could happen to me. If it does, I'm determined to fake it for as long as possible. It helps that I'm already pretty eccentric.  ;D

Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #381 on: July 06, 2018, 09:58:52 PM »
Because you develop an illness issue common in the elderly shouldn't give you a pass

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #382 on: July 09, 2018, 02:30:31 PM »
Because you develop an illness issue common in the elderly shouldn't give you a pass

People with dementia shouldn't be in prison. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #383 on: July 09, 2018, 04:13:10 PM »
People with dementia shouldn't be in prison. 

Depends on the crime. I truly don't care if a rapist or child abuser develops dementia in prison. But I would be open to putting them down rather than keeping them locked up.

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #384 on: July 09, 2018, 04:29:21 PM »
Depends on the crime. I truly don't care if a rapist or child abuser develops dementia in prison. But I would be open to putting them down rather than keeping them locked up.

Good thing things like life, liberty, and due process parts of the Constitution disagree with you.  We do compassionate releases all the time for prisoners who are sick or dying. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #385 on: July 09, 2018, 09:58:04 PM »
Good thing things like life, liberty, and due process parts of the Constitution disagree with you.  We do compassionate releases all the time for prisoners who are sick or dying.  

I'm just stating my opinion. IF bleeding hearts want to release pedophiles and rapists... thats up to the bleeding heart liberals like you 

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #386 on: July 09, 2018, 11:51:18 PM »
I'm just stating my opinion. IF bleeding hearts want to release pedophiles and rapists... thats up to the bleeding heart liberals like you 

Only in a movie or novel would someone be convicted of a crime, not sentenced to death, then killed when they become sick or have dementia.  Or in Hitler's Germany.  Or your little twisted liberal mind. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #387 on: July 10, 2018, 01:08:14 AM »
Only in a movie or novel would someone be convicted of a crime, not sentenced to death, then killed when they become sick or have dementia.  Or in Hitler's Germany.  Or your little twisted liberal mind.  

Defending pedophiles now? Any minute Soulcrusher and Coach and all those conservatives are going to be jumping on you about being a soft libtard

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #388 on: July 10, 2018, 10:27:13 AM »
Defending pedophiles now? Any minute Soulcrusher and Coach and all those conservatives are going to be jumping on you about being a soft libtard

Defending the Constitution from radical leftists like you, Adolf. 

IroNat

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #389 on: July 10, 2018, 11:33:05 AM »
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #390 on: July 10, 2018, 12:25:46 PM »
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.

No they aren't. 

Many organized religions aren't much different than atheists when it comes to proselytizing. 

Do you think religious groups should be barred from talking to people about their faith? 

IroNat

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #391 on: July 10, 2018, 12:34:40 PM »
No they aren't. 

Many organized religions aren't much different than atheists when it comes to proselytizing. 

Do you think religious groups should be barred from talking to people about their faith? 

I think it's annoying when they come to my door and want to talk to me.  So yes, stay away from my house.

Some communities have laws against door-to-door soliciting. 

Don't call me, I'll call you.

I've never had an atheist come to my door recruiting me into atheism.  Never had a Jew come to my door recruiting me into Judaism.




Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #392 on: July 10, 2018, 12:36:07 PM »
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.

When you really get to the nuts and bolts of it.. it is whacky. That an adult can willingly believe, or at least say they believe that 6000 years ago a supernatural being created everything, then created man and woman, the woman from the mans rib. Then create a garden, put a tree in it that contains Knowledge of good and evil and forbid them to eat from it which he already knew they would..He then doesn't like how man turned out so he floods the earth killing all but one family and all the animals of the world, which he saved on a boat. Then we get to the stories of God stopping the sun in the sky so one tribe can slaughter another.. a sea parting at the request of moses then closing back up on the approaching enemy. Lets see.. then there is the multiple plagues god brought to Egypt to convince the Pharaoh to let his people go... the writers lost track of how many times the cattle where completely wiped out...Then God kills all the 1st born if they didn't have the blood of a lamb on the door...
Then we get to  around 2000 years ago, when according to the manuscripts, a baby was born of a virgin.. could walk on water, turn water to wine, heal the sick and ascended to heaven. He answers your prayers kinda sorta, depending on vague things like if its his will or not.. loves you but will send you to an eternal hell if you don't love him. And this is one of the more widely accepted religious beliefs... When you get to Mormons, Scientologists, it just gets weirder. There is no limit to what people will believe if they want to bad enough

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #393 on: July 10, 2018, 12:54:54 PM »
I think it's annoying when they come to my door and want to talk to me.  So yes, stay away from my house.

Some communities have laws against door-to-door soliciting. 

Don't call me, I'll call you.

I've never had an atheist come to my door recruiting me into atheism.  Never had a Jew come to my door recruiting me into Judaism.


They come to my door all the time.  I say no thank you.  You want a law preventing religious people from knocking on people's doors?  Sounds unconstitutional. 

Does the door-to-door soliciting include religious folks?  What communities are you talking about?  I'd like to read one or two of whatever they passed. 

Atheists are constantly trying to convert people and push their non-beliefs on others.  They even have atheist churches.  It's bizarre.  All centered on the non-belief in something. 

Pretty extensive operation:

Plus the following is clearly proselytizing:

    * Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
    * Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals.
    * Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history.
    * Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts.
    * Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed.
    * Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas.
    * Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective.
    * Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media.
    * Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists

http://www.atheists.org/about

IroNat

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #394 on: July 10, 2018, 01:10:20 PM »
People can do whatever they want as long as they do not infringe on other people rights.

If Atheists want to get together it's fine.

If Jehovahs Witnesses want to get together it's fine.

Don't come to my door and bother me.  F*ck off.

As far as separation of religion and government I am all for it.

Some Christians are all for the incorporation of their religion into government.  Do you think they are for the incorporation of a different religion into their government?  Highly doubtful.

Say a Christian prayer before the start of the Senate.  That's ok.

How about a Hindu prayer?  Or a Muslim prayer?  A Satanic prayer?  A pagan prayer?

"Mighty Odin look favorably on this Senate meeting!"




Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #395 on: July 10, 2018, 01:14:24 PM »
Comparing organized atheists with organized religion is like comparing what  the indian tribes did at the Battle of Little Big Horn against Custer and the spreading of chicken pox via infected blankets. Because of religious zealots desire to infect every aspect of life with their beliefs, those who don't share that personal belief in a god or gods had to organize in order to keep them out of their lives. If you can't see that, you just aren't trying.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #396 on: July 10, 2018, 01:34:10 PM »
People can do whatever they want as long as they do not infringe on other people rights.

If Atheists want to get together it's fine.

If Jehovahs Witnesses want to get together it's fine.

Don't come to my door and bother me.  F*ck off.

As far as separation of religion and government I am all for it.

Some Christians are all for the incorporation of their religion into government.  Do you think they are for the incorporation of a different religion into their government?  Highly doubtful.

Say a Christian prayer before the start of the Senate.  That's ok.

How about a Hindu prayer?  Or a Muslim prayer?  A Satanic prayer?  A pagan prayer?

"Mighty Odin look favorably on this Senate meeting!"


I'd rather they not come to my door either, but I don't need a law to prevent it from happening.  I also don't care about people approaching me on the street.  I simply say no thank you.  It doesn't inconvenience my life at all. 

I'm definitely a believer in church-state separation.  I am not, however, a believer in the removal of all religious references or influences from the public square.  That isn't required by the Constitution.  Our historical roots are faith based.  That's part of who we are as a country.  No need to try and rewrite history. 

IroNat

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #397 on: July 10, 2018, 05:49:17 PM »
I'd rather they not come to my door either, but I don't need a law to prevent it from happening.  I also don't care about people approaching me on the street.  I simply say no thank you.  It doesn't inconvenience my life at all. 

I'm definitely a believer in church-state separation.  I am not, however, a believer in the removal of all religious references or influences from the public square.  That isn't required by the Constitution.  Our historical roots are faith based.  That's part of who we are as a country.  No need to try and rewrite history. 

"Religious references".

Whose religion?  Yours?  A pagans?  Satanists?  Muslim?

"One nation, under Vishnu (Baal), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Would you be ok with that?

In front of your town hall the Christmas Creche, the Menorah, statue of Baal, Vishnu?

Would you be ok with that?

Dos Equis

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #398 on: July 10, 2018, 06:26:43 PM »
"Religious references".

Whose religion?  Yours?  A pagans?  Satanists?  Muslim?

"One nation, under Vishnu (Baal), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Would you be ok with that?

In front of your town hall the Christmas Creche, the Menorah, statue of Baal, Vishnu?

Would you be ok with that?

The religious references that are a part of our history.  Let's not pretend that the founders of our country (both legislators and lay people) were not Christians.  And you don't need to quote any of deist stuff.  I've studied it. 

If you look at our founding documents, nothing refers to Baal, so that really isn't a reasonable hypothetical.  You're smart enough to know what I'm talking about.   

We already have displays on government property that include various religious displays.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  I don't suffer emotional distress when I see non-Christian things.  But the atheists who run around the country filing lawsuits do suffer emotional distress when they see any hint of Christian symbols on public problem, which is just weird given the fact they don't believe God exists. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
« Reply #399 on: July 10, 2018, 07:11:10 PM »
The religious references that are a part of our history.  Let's not pretend that the founders of our country (both legislators and lay people) were not Christians.  And you don't need to quote any of deist stuff.  I've studied it. 

If you look at our founding documents, nothing refers to Baal, so that really isn't a reasonable hypothetical.  You're smart enough to know what I'm talking about.   

We already have displays on government property that include various religious displays.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  I don't suffer emotional distress when I see non-Christian things.  But the atheists who run around the country filing lawsuits do suffer emotional distress when they see any hint of Christian symbols on public problem, which is just weird given the fact they don't believe God exists. 

I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool... I'll try again, though I think you really already understand it, you just can't admit it but it's certainly not weird when a group who doesn't believe in Dragons, are concerned when another group that does believe in dragons, and actively tries to weave their belief of dragons into government and laws. Of course the group that doesn't believe in dragons will get involved to insure there is separation of dragons  and state.