Bonds is getting TOO CLOSE!

[Rearden Metal]

The issue here is not whether other players are on steroids, it is whether BONDS is on steroids and since you agree what does your post have to do with anything?

With or without steroids BONDS was a good player but his legacy will be forever marred with steroids.  He has shamed the game. 

Your POV is naive, speculative and hypocritical. Think beyond an elementary level.

The whole game is marred. Every sport in existence is marred. It's only pristine when there simply are no regulations at all, or the regulations can be 100% enforced. Anything less is not acceptable, period.

Why? Because if you put in motion regulations which players must follow and pass tests for, and they indeed pass, then said player is clear of fault. It doesn't matter if he gains 50 lbs and hits 99 homers, if you can't fail him at a test, how can you persecute him?

Is it not cheating if Julio Lugo decided that he wants to hit above .200 and starts juicing? Even if he doesn't exhibit symptoms, wouldn't he be reviled by your view? If so, start reviling just about every athlete you now admire.

Get your heads out of the sand, people.

[Camel Jockey]

I agree with your assesment. Now, does Palmeiro exhibit these symptoms? My point isn't whether Bonds IS taking them, but with the contention that those who don't have symptoms and a snail trail simply aren't taking them.

Going by observation and his ties to Balco, he probably used more than your average run of mill shortstop wanting to gain 5 lbs. 

[Camel Jockey]

And didn't he claim that he thought the cream steroid was flax seed oil or something?

[Grape Ape]

Why? Because if you put in motion regulations which players must follow and pass tests for, and they indeed pass, then said player is clear of fault. It doesn't matter if he gains 50 lbs and hits 99 homers, if you can't fail him at a test, how can you persecute him?

This is the end of the agrument.

MLB fucked this whole situation up - in 98 they promoted this whole thing during the McGwire/Sosa run, so they're complete hypocrites if they try to change things for Bonds.

At the end of the day, Bonds' numbers will prove him out to be the one of the best ever if not, THE best ever (there will be legimate agruments that Ruth destroys everyone since he outperformed his league by more than anyone ever will, but that's a different argument).  His 73 HR season may be, by far, the best season anyone has ever had.

Imagine this conversation 50 years from  now:

"Why isn't Bonds in the Hall?"

"He cheated, he used steroids"

"Oh, he failed a drug test?"

"Well, no, he never failed a drug test.  He did gain a lot of weight since he was a rookie, and these guys wrote a book based on leaked grand jury testimony, and he hit a lot of HRs late in his late 30s and early 40s, though."

It doesn't hold water.  Yes, I think he used.  But I think so many used during the era that you just can't punish the best player of that era.  It's not fair.

[big L dawg]

yea man its just not fair

[OzmO]

Your POV is naive, speculative and hypocritical. Think beyond an elementary level.

The whole game is marred. Every sport in existence is marred. It's only pristine when there simply are no regulations at all, or the regulations can be 100% enforced. Anything less is not acceptable, period.

Why? Because if you put in motion regulations which players must follow and pass tests for, and they indeed pass, then said player is clear of fault. It doesn't matter if he gains 50 lbs and hits 99 homers, if you can't fail him at a test, how can you persecute him?

Is it not cheating if Julio Lugo decided that he wants to hit above .200 and starts juicing? Even if he doesn't exhibit symptoms, wouldn't he be reviled by your view? If so, start reviling just about every athlete you now admire.

Get your heads out of the sand, people.

Granted my POV may be naive, but what part of my assertions are not true?

Did Bonds not take steriods?

Has his actions have not shamed the game?

i agree about Sosa and McGuire also.  They avoided the negative publicity BONDS is getting now and should have an equal dose.  It is pretty obvious McGuire was on it.

I'm not sure what you saying exactly....are you saying that becuase a person can pass a test he shouldn't be automatically cleared from suspicion in the face blatant symptoms?

I'm a purest and agree with your assertion that nearly all professional sports is marred by this.


This post is about BONDS.  Not everyone else.  And I'd comment the same way if it was.

Maybe they should just open the gates and let anyone do what they want to make it level fro everyone......because trying to prevent it is impossible for a number of reasons.  I'm not for that. 

Anyone got a good solution?

[Dos Equis]

I agree with your assesment. Now, does Palmeiro exhibit these symptoms? My point isn't whether Bonds IS taking them, but with the contention that those who don't have symptoms and a snail trail simply aren't taking them.

Palmeiro tested positive, so there really isn't any question about him.  I also heard that his homerun production doubled when he played with Canseco.

I understand your point.  I agree with you.   

[Rearden Metal]

Going by observation and his ties to Balco, he probably used more than your average run of mill shortstop wanting to gain 5 lbs. 

Is english your first language? Man, some people have zero comprehension.

[Rearden Metal]

Palmeiro tested positive, so there really isn't any question about him.  I also heard that his homerun production doubled when he played with Canseco.


All true. But would you have looked at Palmeiro and said, "CHEATER!"?

No. We never did. Because he didn't look the part.

[Rearden Metal]

Granted my POV may be naive, but what part of my assertions are not true? You assert Bonds is a cheater when he hasn't failed a test.

Did Bonds not take steriods? Unknown and unproven. For all I know he took a myostatin inhibitor, LOL. Point is, he passed the test, so he's clear. Do I THINK he's used? yes.

Has his actions have not shamed the game? No. He's playing the game on the terms the game has set, and won. MLB has shamed itself.

i agree about Sosa and McGuire also.  They avoided the negative publicity BONDS is getting now and should have an equal dose.  It is pretty obvious McGuire was on it. Also unknown and unproven, obvious to our trained eye or not. Speculation gets us in trouble, people. You wouldn't want people speculating on your life's work and persecuting you for something you never were proven to have done. I do think that McGuire is a pansy bitch, though, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not sure what you saying exactly....are you saying that becuase a person can pass a test he shouldn't be automatically cleared from suspicion in the face blatant symptoms? If he passes, you can't persecute him. Catch him or shut up.

I'm a purest and agree with your assertion that nearly all professional sports is marred by this. Absolutely, so either take up crochet, or get over it and cheer. Baseball is still fun to watch. Go Sox!


This post is about BONDS.  Not everyone else.  And I'd comment the same way if it was. In the context of the record, it SHOULD be about Bonds. In the context of drugs, it should be about every player in the league for the last 60 years.

Maybe they should just open the gates and let anyone do what they want to make it level fro everyone......because trying to prevent it is impossible for a number of reasons.  I'm not for that.  It was like this forever up until 98. All the records from all the hero's you admire were set in an era of denial. Thus, you cannot persecute a current player for breaking said records. It's assanine!

Anyone got a good solution?

With all of the billions in sports, if they want to clean it up they have to spend inordinate amounts of money to test and ban all illicit materials. Either they should take an IOC stance, and ban players for life who fail, or they should quit testing altogether.

[pumpster]

Your POV is naive, speculative and hypocritical. Think beyond an elementary level.

The whole game is marred. Every sport in existence is marred. It's only pristine when there simply are no regulations at all, or the regulations can be 100% enforced. Anything less is not acceptable, period.

Why? Because if you put in motion regulations which players must follow and pass tests for, and they indeed pass, then said player is clear of fault. It doesn't matter if he gains 50 lbs and hits 99 homers, if you can't fail him at a test, how can you persecute him?

Is it not cheating if Julio Lugo decided that he wants to hit above .200 and starts juicing? Even if he doesn't exhibit symptoms, wouldn't he be reviled by your view? If so, start reviling just about every athlete you now admire.

Get your heads out of the sand, people.

Talk about preachy & obnoxious.

Thanx for "enlightening" us with your wisdom. It really deserves a shoe up the azz.

[bmacsys]

Well since they didn't used to even test how can you say it's cheating. Should they do investigations on every player to play after the introduction to steroids and void all their records and careers.

Its not only Bonds, Palmiero and Big Mac have had their legacies ruined. Big Mac went from a guy idolized by tons of baseball fans to a loser in the wink of an eye with his testimony before congress.

[pumpster]

I also believe he was on steroids, and I think he's an ass. Still, PLEASE FUCKING EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU DETERMINE WHICH ATHLETES ARE/WERE ON STEROIDS/GH OTHER THAN A TEST!!!.

Phsical manifestations of side effects are not apparent in all users. In fact, in most they are not noticable. Did you suspect Palmeiro used? Do you think Jeter does? If no, why not, because he doesn't have a big head (actually he does).

You don't know who's using because you can't know. There's hundreds of guys in every gym who use and you wouldn't have a clue, because they don't have insane muscle, aren't crazy strong, etc. Still, they are using.

MLB, NFL...shit Golf....EVEN TABLE TENNIS has a lot of doping going on. If you can pass the test, YOU ARE FUCKING CLEAR PEOPLE.

Until they test better or make everything legal, there is no even playing field. You don't know how long this has been happening. Steroids have been around for 50+ years, so your idols who were competing for big money WERE USING them for an edge. If you don't think so, you're naive.

So, where does that leave us for Bonds? Well, he's going to break a seemingly unbreakable record (until ARod and Bonds) that was set in an era where steroids existed, amphetamines existed and were rampant, and cocaine and other stimulants were used to perform. Guess what, he's playing the game just like it always has been played.

Why are we applauding Frank Thomas and not Bonds, because he's a nice guy? Why are we applauding Roger Clemens and not Bonds, because he is white? I don't get it. I applaud all these guys, Clemens is a hero of mine, and Bonds, whether you like him or not, is the most devastating hitter we've ever seen.

Stand up and applaud or sit down and shut up. Stop being hypocrites just because he's a dick.

STFU YOU WHINY, PREACHY BITCH. JUST BECAUSE YOU DECIDE TO SEE IT A CERTAIN WAY DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.

BONDS IS HORRIBLE ON SEVERAL LEVELS AND HAS BEEN DISMISSED IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION WHETHER YOU AND YOUR POMPOUS ASS AGREES OR NOT.

[bmacsys]

Show me his negative test, body. Until then, s-p-e-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n.

You ever hear of the phrase "overwhelming body of circumstantial evidence"? The truth is out there.

[pumpster]

You ever hear of the phrase "overwhelming body of circumstantial evidence"? The truth is out there.

Self-righteous aholes like this guy like to disect everything and pretend there's really no evidence in order to suit their own biases. But will never admit it.

[bmacsys]

Not really. Bonds admitted under oath he took steroids. The testimony was leaked. he claimed he took them "unwillingly" but that does not change the fact he used them. The lawyer who leaked it just got 9 more months in jail this past week! His orig sentence we to lenient says a judge.

This is whats hilarious. That Bonds and Sheffield said they didn't know what they were taking. But somehow Giambi was told by the same guy what it was? Give me a break. They knew exactly what they were ingesting. Undetectable designer roids.

[bmacsys]

Palmeiro tested positive, so there really isn't any question about him.  I also heard that his homerun production doubled when he played with Canseco.

I understand your point.  I agree with you.   

His first 8 years with the Cubs he averaged about 10 taters a year. He gets Traded to the Texas Rangers where Canseco and Juan Gonzales are playing and magicly hits 40 dingers.

[Rearden Metal]

His first 8 years with the Cubs he averaged about 10 taters a year. He gets Traded to the Texas Rangers where Canseco and Juan Gonzales are playing and magicly hits 40 dingers.

And yet, nobody said a thing until he tested positive. Why?

[Rearden Metal]

Self-righteous aholes like this guy like to disect everything and pretend there's really no evidence in order to suit their own biases. But will never admit it.

Self righteous? Asshole? Sorry that my pragmatic view shatters your embryonic sight. Fuck you, is all.

I'm not pretending there's no evidence. I'm demanding proof.

You guys are a bunch of whiney girls.

[pumpster]

Self righteous? Asshole? Sorry that my pragmatic view shatters your embryonic sight. Fuck you, is all.

I'm not pretending there's no evidence. I'm demanding proof.

You guys are a bunch of whiney girls.

Demanding proof this late in the game is just BS you little twit. Few accept your arbitrary reasonings; he lost in the court of public opinion and no one cares about your contructs.

[Deadpool]

 

[OzmO]

With all of the billions in sports, if they want to clean it up they have to spend inordinate amounts of money to test and ban all illicit materials. Either they should take an IOC stance, and ban players for life who fail, or they should quit testing altogether.

You make some good points. 

Was OJ innocent too?

It's pretty obvious he was or is on some kind of performance enhancing drug that was not legal as per rules.

But if i get you right your attitude is that becuase everyone is doing it why persecute BONDS?  And then becuase of that, don;t worry about it and enjoy the game?  I do for the most part. 

[Rearden Metal]

You make some good points. 

Was OJ innocent too?

It's pretty obvious he was or is on some kind of performance enhancing drug that was not legal as per rules.

But if i get you right your attitude is that becuase everyone is doing it why persecute BONDS?  And then becuase of that, don;t worry about it and enjoy the game?  I do for the most part. 

I'm just saying, if you are going to persecute Bonds, be honest and level and admit to yourselves that the use of drugs in MLB (and most all sports) is very widespread and has been for a loooooong time. Focusing on one unlikeable player because he is going to break the record set by a guy who could have been doping too (if you don't think so, you're soooo wrong) just because he's a twat is juvenile and hypocrisy.

I don't think Bonds is clean. I don't think he's free of guilt. I do think that players have been doping for decades, and as such, you might as well asterisk all of sports. I can go back for 60 years and analyze players stats and bodies and give you hundreds of them as examples of likely dopers, not to mention those who exhibit no signs (like Palmeiro) physically.

Nevermind the amphetamines issue, the most used drug in baseball.

You guys are without perspective. Widen your focus.

[Rearden Metal]

What does this prove, that he's fat?

[pumpster]

What does this prove, that he's fat?

Superb example of arguing for the sake of arguing. A good reminder that opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.