Accepting the reality of the situation...

[240 is Back]

1) If we leave iraq, China/Russia/Iran/Syria will secure their oil.

2) If we don't have that oil, as the world runs out, things are going to get really ugly here.

3) The only difference in our lives - whether Iraq is a disaster or a peaceful please - is our own personal conscience/morals.

4) Both the Repub AND the Dems know these things, which is why the Dems' plan is currently to "end the war next year but keep troops here"

5) Blind blaming of "libs" for anything is stupid - this entire situation was created and maintained by republicans.

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

7) We live in a shitty time period.  The US is gonna make sacrifices over the next decade to get that oil.  It sucks worse for folks living on top of the oil though, that's for sure. 

Whatever is next - declare victory in iraq in 2008, then conduct iraq II right next door in iran - is probably inevitable and probably necessary. 

9) As morally objectionable as it is, these wars are for the greater good of Americans.

I used to be the biggest anti-war guy out there.  I'm *still* anti-liar, when people say it has nothing to do with oil.  But the reality of the situation is that we're stuck there now, and we have to be.  Being stuck there means we secure what we need to stay afloat.  There really isn't much more to say.  Yes, WMD and 911 were shady.  And yes, there's a lot of shady shit going on now.  But in ten years, when American owns iraq and iran oil, right as ethanol takes off and oil drops, we're going to be a lot stronger than China.

[Hugo Chavez]

\Dish of Warm 240 Logic/


Provided for your recovery...
  

[240 is Back]

lol...

at first i supported the war, voted for bush twice.
then i learned about 911 and the WMD lies and was upset.
i'd still love to see investigations, but the reality is that we won't.
however, everyone knows now.  Even Theresa Heinz Kerry nodded at the thermate question yesterday.  everyone knows.

the more i studied - the current situation, history, and our financial performance trends in the world - the more i realized that these things have been going on for decades, since the wnd of WWII, as we learned what happens when WE don't control the earth - you get a hitler who tries to do it.  Russia realized it too, and we both tried to be "the guy".  Luckily, we won.  however, globalization and the web has made our advantages shrink over the years, and the end of oil is very real and very scary.  So, we are acting while we have the chance.  yes, we slashed our own tires to justify stealing a new car.  But we need a ride, and it's this or walk.

So, we're living thru a rough time.  When bush talks, it's obviously lies and fearmongering, but the goal he has serves us - conquer mid east nations, secure oil, and build bases.  The words he shares are for the stupid people - the swing 20% that steer elections.  i still consider the neotaints here to be stupid as pigshit.  All this talk about "doing it to share democracy" is laughable to anyone with a brain cell.

I don't like it, berserker.  But it's the reality.  As individuals, we are insignificant.  Even those major players involved are insignificant.  We're all just a pile of goo with a semblance of a conscience, working for the greater collective continium.  the machine is very efficient now, and it's working.  The war is failing, but the goals - bases, pipeline, position - are all working great.  Was a peaceful iraq EVER a goal?  I doubt it.

Anyway, it's a sad day for me to realize what i think is the inevitable and sad state of thigns.  And I know the pendulum swings and we'll get a dem in, and he/she will bring domestic prosperity for a bit while the next repub waits in the wings with battle plans.  I give up trying to challenge it or fight it though.  Pointless.

[Hugo Chavez]

Are you actually sure you thought of all the options?  With all due respect you jumped on this opinion almost instantly when it was posted a while back. This is a serious opinion you're forming here.  Take a few minutes and make sure there are no alternatives, you have absolutely thought it out to the end.  Just think about it, like trouble shoot it in your head for a bit as though you had the power to implement changes.  You're a creative guy, give me some options here...


You're with Kirk in the mirror universe and he wants alternatives to destroying the Halkans


One question to consider while you're thinking about this all... If you had to pick between your family dying or killing your neighbor who is completely innocent would you kill an innocent to save your family?  OK.. Now... If you had to pick between killing your innocent neighbor and living in comfort over living in hardship would you take your neighbors life so you could live in comfort? 

[240 is Back]

Alex Jones is absolutely right. 
911 was an inside job, WMD was a sham, and corps control the mainstream media.

Bush is absolutely right - we have to control iraq for our security - meaning ability to survive and compete - and we need oil for that.

So already, it's all about viewpoint.  Jones can't solve our energy woes, as right as he is about things.  And Bush has no moral standing, no matter how right he is about us needing oil.

Of course I wouldn't kill my neighbor for a better lifestyle.



Maybe this brings us to the bigger issue - is securing their oil a life/death thing?  Perhaps this is what is all boils down to... Would our economy fall in 5 years if al-Maliki made the deal with China and US was locked out of iraqi, and eventually Venez and iranian oil too?  And based on the winner of the civil war there - if we lose the saudis... yikes.

Perhaps that is the deciding factor.  Would we see a recession or a depression when oil peaks and falls?  Can ethanol get its shit together in 2 years? In 10?  This was the biggest planting year since WWII, but the transition will be brutal.

[240 is Back]

Just think about it, like trouble shoot it in your head for a bit as though you had the power to implement changes.  You're a creative guy, give me some options here...

I'd need more info on alternative fuel sources.  Also the importance of bases lined up against China.  Are we dead without oil, and dead without a line of defense against foreign aggression against the bases securing this oil?

The problem be... no one is ever going to shoot us straight on this aspect of things.

[chaos]

I thought you had some pact----no war talk for a week or something

[youandme]

I thought you had some pact----no war talk for a week or something

yeah whats up with that, works out good since alot of peeps have finals

[seauantea]

1) If we leave iraq, China/Russia/Iran/Syria will secure their oil.

2) If we don't have that oil, as the world runs out, things are going to get really ugly here.

3) The only difference in our lives - whether Iraq is a disaster or a peaceful please - is our own personal conscience/morals.

4) Both the Repub AND the Dems know these things, which is why the Dems' plan is currently to "end the war next year but keep troops here"

5) Blind blaming of "libs" for anything is stupid - this entire situation was created and maintained by republicans.

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

7) We live in a shitty time period.  The US is gonna make sacrifices over the next decade to get that oil.  It sucks worse for folks living on top of the oil though, that's for sure. 

Whatever is next - declare victory in iraq in 2008, then conduct iraq II right next door in iran - is probably inevitable and probably necessary. 

9) As morally objectionable as it is, these wars are for the greater good of Americans.

I used to be the biggest anti-war guy out there.  I'm *still* anti-liar, when people say it has nothing to do with oil.  But the reality of the situation is that we're stuck there now, and we have to be.  Being stuck there means we secure what we need to stay afloat.  There really isn't much more to say.  Yes, WMD and 911 were shady.  And yes, there's a lot of shady shit going on now.  But in ten years, when American owns iraq and iran oil, right as ethanol takes off and oil drops, we're going to be a lot stronger than China.

For the most part I agree with what you have written, but you left out one compelling factor: greed. These neoconservatives are making themselves and the industry groups they front for immensely (more) wealthy. This greed may end up being the difference between the success of following a long standing and well intended American imperial policy and the failure brought on by exploiting the post 911 situation for short term private gain.

[240 is Back]

greed - definitely. 

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

Whether they chalk it up as their gain for taking the risks, or just retirement package for giving the nation an advantage for 100 years, I dunno.  The neocons are mostly 60+ anyway.

[Hedgehog]

1) If we leave iraq, China/Russia/Iran/Syria will secure their oil.

2) If we don't have that oil, as the world runs out, things are going to get really ugly here.

3) The only difference in our lives - whether Iraq is a disaster or a peaceful please - is our own personal conscience/morals.

4) Both the Repub AND the Dems know these things, which is why the Dems' plan is currently to "end the war next year but keep troops here"

5) Blind blaming of "libs" for anything is stupid - this entire situation was created and maintained by republicans.

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

7) We live in a shitty time period.  The US is gonna make sacrifices over the next decade to get that oil.  It sucks worse for folks living on top of the oil though, that's for sure. 

Whatever is next - declare victory in iraq in 2008, then conduct iraq II right next door in iran - is probably inevitable and probably necessary. 

9) As morally objectionable as it is, these wars are for the greater good of Americans.

I used to be the biggest anti-war guy out there.  I'm *still* anti-liar, when people say it has nothing to do with oil.  But the reality of the situation is that we're stuck there now, and we have to be.  Being stuck there means we secure what we need to stay afloat.  There really isn't much more to say.  Yes, WMD and 911 were shady.  And yes, there's a lot of shady shit going on now.  But in ten years, when American owns iraq and iran oil, right as ethanol takes off and oil drops, we're going to be a lot stronger than China.

During what period of time were you "the biggest anti-war guy out there"?


-Hedge

[Rearden Metal]

The hole in your theory is it leaves no room for alternative measures. You act as if we don't use oil on purpose despite many advancements that if pursued, could leave oil in the dust within years, not decades.

Look at it this way for a second. Cars run on the same type of turbine engines that were invented 60+ years ago, with relatively no efficiency upgrades. Do you think this is not on purpose?

Once you account for the FACT that oil makes some people very rich, and is only a necessity as long as that is the case, you can begin to break down all of that stuff you did above with a reason attached to it which makes sense.

It's not the for the best interest of America, but some Americans, that is being looked after.

[Old_Rooster]

1) If we leave iraq, China/Russia/Iran/Syria will secure their oil.

2) If we don't have that oil, as the world runs out, things are going to get really ugly here.

3) The only difference in our lives - whether Iraq is a disaster or a peaceful please - is our own personal conscience/morals.

4) Both the Repub AND the Dems know these things, which is why the Dems' plan is currently to "end the war next year but keep troops here"

5) Blind blaming of "libs" for anything is stupid - this entire situation was created and maintained by republicans.

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

7) We live in a shitty time period.  The US is gonna make sacrifices over the next decade to get that oil.  It sucks worse for folks living on top of the oil though, that's for sure. 

Whatever is next - declare victory in iraq in 2008, then conduct iraq II right next door in iran - is probably inevitable and probably necessary. 

9) As morally objectionable as it is, these wars are for the greater good of Americans.

I used to be the biggest anti-war guy out there.  I'm *still* anti-liar, when people say it has nothing to do with oil.  But the reality of the situation is that we're stuck there now, and we have to be.  Being stuck there means we secure what we need to stay afloat.  There really isn't much more to say.  Yes, WMD and 911 were shady.  And yes, there's a lot of shady shit going on now.  But in ten years, when American owns iraq and iran oil, right as ethanol takes off and oil drops, we're going to be a lot stronger than China.

Finally, some common sense.  Let folks cry about the war being for oil and i'll even admit it probably is about the oil.  But I also love driving my Tahoe to the beach or wherever else I want to go as do all americans.  We gotta have oil, thats the only thing that matters.

Or I suppose we could go back to horseback but that would take me about 8 days to get to the beach even if Daniel Boone led my expedition.

Now.....lets blast Iran's ass and get their oil.  *rubbing hands together all giddy*

[Old_Rooster]

lol...

at first i supported the war, voted for bush twice.
then i learned about 911 and the WMD lies and was upset.
i'd still love to see investigations, but the reality is that we won't.
however, everyone knows now.  Even Theresa Heinz Kerry nodded at the thermate question yesterday.  everyone knows.

the more i studied - the current situation, history, and our financial performance trends in the world - the more i realized that these things have been going on for decades, since the wnd of WWII, as we learned what happens when WE don't control the earth - you get a hitler who tries to do it.  Russia realized it too, and we both tried to be "the guy".  Luckily, we won.  however, globalization and the web has made our advantages shrink over the years, and the end of oil is very real and very scary.  So, we are acting while we have the chance.  yes, we slashed our own tires to justify stealing a new car.  But we need a ride, and it's this or walk.

So, we're living thru a rough time.  When bush talks, it's obviously lies and fearmongering, but the goal he has serves us - conquer mid east nations, secure oil, and build bases.  The words he shares are for the stupid people - the swing 20% that steer elections.  i still consider the neotaints here to be stupid as pigshit.  All this talk about "doing it to share democracy" is laughable to anyone with a brain cell.

I don't like it, berserker.  But it's the reality.  As individuals, we are insignificant.  Even those major players involved are insignificant.  We're all just a pile of goo with a semblance of a conscience, working for the greater collective continium.  the machine is very efficient now, and it's working.  The war is failing, but the goals - bases, pipeline, position - are all working great.  Was a peaceful iraq EVER a goal?  I doubt it.

Anyway, it's a sad day for me to realize what i think is the inevitable and sad state of thigns.  And I know the pendulum swings and we'll get a dem in, and he/she will bring domestic prosperity for a bit while the next repub waits in the wings with battle plans.  I give up trying to challenge it or fight it though.  Pointless.

And what have i been saying all along?

EVEN IF IT IS ABOUT THE OIL, WE NEED DAMN OIL!

Thank you for vindicating the Rooster and getting on the same playbook!  Hey, they might just get democracy as a perk!

[seauantea]

greed - definitely. 

6) Bush, Cheney, Rummy and others - despite their actions over the last 6 years we might find terrible, as well as any personal wealth gains they have secured - have the best longterm interest of America in mind. 

Whether they chalk it up as their gain for taking the risks, or just retirement package for giving the nation an advantage for 100 years, I dunno.  The neocons are mostly 60+ anyway.

My apologies, I must have glossed over it the first time around.

I do not believe they are quite as altruistic as you seem to; keep in mind these are the same folks that brought Iran Contra, Savings and Loan as well as facilitating the Enron scandal.

[Old_Rooster]

My apologies, I must have glossed over it the first time around.

I do not believe they are quite as altruistic as you seem to; keep in mind these are the same folks that brought Iran Contra, Savings and Loan as well as facilitating the Enron scandal.

clinton & whitewater...yadda yadda yadda

[seauantea]

Would you like a cookie?

[240 is Back]

and the cool thing about you rooster is that you will say

- yeah, it's about th eoil
- yeah, we're not really concerned about muslims over there living or dying
- yeah, 911 might have been an inside job, but it was for the greter good

(correct me if i'm wrong on these assumptions on ya)

The ones who piss me off are the idiots who support the war but
1- refuse to admit oil has anything to do with us being there
2- believe Bush's #1 concern is helping iraqi people be safe
3- look at 9/11 and see no holes, and refuse to look at the 1962 northwoods plan, where the DoD approved blowing up planes then.


To me, honesty is the most important thing.  I would have respected bush more if he had done a powerpoint presentation on the morning of 9/11 to show what would happen to the economy without these invasions.  I know, the world might have had a cow and the local yokels here wouldn't understand.  But I would have respected his honesty.

[Old_Rooster]

and the cool thing about you rooster is that you will say

- yeah, it's about th eoil
- yeah, we're not really concerned about muslims over there living or dying
- yeah, 911 might have been an inside job, but it was for the greter good

(correct me if i'm wrong on these assumptions on ya)

The ones who piss me off are the idiots who support the war but
1- refuse to admit oil has anything to do with us being there
2- believe Bush's #1 concern is helping iraqi people be safe
3- look at 9/11 and see no holes, and refuse to look at the 1962 northwoods plan, where the DoD approved blowing up planes then.


To me, honesty is the most important thing.  I would have respected bush more if he had done a powerpoint presentation on the morning of 9/11 to show what would happen to the economy without these invasions.  I know, the world might have had a cow and the local yokels here wouldn't understand.  But I would have respected his honesty.

I suppose you can say all that about me, I truly don't believe 9/11 was an inside job but if it is ever proven to be, well for the greater good......i could live with it.

[Hedgehog]

I used to be the biggest anti-war guy out there. 

During what period of time were you the "biggest anti-war guy out there"?

-Hedge

[240 is Back]

During what period of time were you the "biggest anti-war guy out there"?

-Hedge

well, i was never a sean penn.  But i was vehemently against it at one point after learning the false pretenses.  Some folks here were anti-war from minute 1.  Took me a little longer to lose the blinders.

[Old_Rooster]

well, i was never a sean penn.  But i was vehemently against it at one point after learning the false pretenses.  Some folks here were anti-war from minute 1.  Took me a little longer to lose the blinders.

I think the majority here were probably banging the drums and cheering on the war after 9/11

then they changed their minds when things go tough, thank god we have a tough president and not a flip flopper.
The nation is a nation of flip-floppers now.

[240 is Back]

I think the majority here were probably banging the drums and cheering on the war after 9/11

then they changed their minds when things go tough, thank god we have a tough president and not a flip flopper.
The nation is a nation of flip-floppers now.

people flipflop - change positions - when they find out they were lied to.

Do you agree?

[Old_Rooster]

people flipflop - change positions - when they find out they were lied to.

Do you agree?

you think they were lied to, i think the best intellegence possible was used.
We differ.

you can't flop out of a war, we are there, we must fight on.

[Camel Jockey]

No more conflicts please.. 

We can't be fighting any more fronts, unless of course there's a draft, which would piss off the majority of americans.