So...what does WIN in Iraq...mean?

[gcb]

And the terrorists will control all the Iraqi oil.

Saudi Arabia is the terrorist training ground as anyone with half a brain would know - and they already control a lot of oil.

[ToxicAvenger]

Actually, if you knew how to read, you'd see the point was there would be mass killings in Iraq if we pulled out now, not that the U.S. cared about Rwanda. 

if the US pulled out there would be a massive influx of future tewrrorists..

the killings would stop

ya reap what ya sow..

buut in this case....we'll reap what bush sowed...

when the oil runs out..and ohhh yes siree it will..we'll leave...

and then..i'll move to europe and leave girls like you to suffer the suicide attacks!    ya see..i'm rich...the world is my home!

[Archer77]

come on bro lets be real

winning means "we" secured the bases necessary to continue regional transformation (think iran, then who knows, paki, saudi ...?) and have infostructure around the natural resources of that region

This is exactly what winning means in military terms.   Securing bases is necessary to established a continued influence in the region.  Oddly enough this approach is very similar to Domino theory applied towards communists

[Dos Equis]

if the US pulled out there would be a massive influx of future tewrrorists..

the killings would stop

ya reap what ya sow..

buut in this case....we'll read what bush sowed...

when the oil runs out..and ohhh yes siree it will..we'll leave...

and then..i'll move to europe and leave girls like you to suffer the suicide attacks!    ya see..i'm rich...the world is my home!

No, if we pullout, the killings would skyrocket. 

You're "rich"?  [snicker]  Rich like Tony Montana maybe. . . .

[ToxicAvenger]

Saudi Arabia is the terrorist training ground as anyone with half a brain would know - and they already control a lot of oil.

such bad bad terrirost people...

yet we keep being friends with em..

what does that say about us?

[ToxicAvenger]

No, if we pullout, the killings would skyrocket. 

You're "rich"?  [snicker]  Rich like Tony Montana maybe. . . .

the killing would stop...for a repb ya sure care a lot about sand ni gger lives..yet 100s die every day in iraq..pfft

and yeah...honey i could buy and sell your family 2ice over and still have enough $ left over to buy your mum as a whore 

sux that most sand nigg ers in the US and arabs are richer than repbs dont it 

[Archer77]

No, if we pullout, the killings would skyrocket. 

Unfortunately we destroyed the infrastructure and the choice is either a slow burn or giant fire ball.  Ultimately, the result is the same.  

[gcb]

such bad bad terrirost people...

yet we keep being friends with em..

what does that say about us?

Well it doesn't say anything about me - I have no friends.

[ToxicAvenger]

- I have no friends.

need i say more..

[240 is Back]

i studied 9/11 for about a year, and think i figured out some of what happened that day.  however, i still am not sure if even planes were used to hit the towers, as they acted like missiles and looked like planes.  

i followed the mid east political mess pretty closely for the last 6 months or so.  it's about oil.  it's about setting up bases for Iran next, and others down the road.  it's about energy to meet our needs in a world where we can't compete anymore.  Chinese cheap labor means we can never compete on mnfg again.  And the folks leading our country know it, and want to keep us #1 because yes, they do love America.

Our leaders, taking heat for all of this.  yeah, they're greedy and hooking up their friends with the contracts.  But yeah, they also love America.  Bush, cheney, rummy... these guys were all deca millionaires in the 80s.  They don't have to wear suits to stressful jobs in their 50s and 60s, enjoy the guilt of the terrible choices leaders have to make, and know billions hate them.  They don't need the money, and the power high subsides quickly.  I honestly think they do it because they love America and want her to remain the only superpower, at all costs.

I guess I"m trying to say that after studying the hell out of it, I don't know the truth about 911 (although i do know some here knew and the official story is lies).  I don't know all of the reasons, implications, and possibilites in the middle east.  And I sure don't know the bigger plan, whether the be a N American union or whatever.  And I have a degree in history and another MBA/economics, and I watch the news like a fiend.  So despite all my tools and study, the way the world works is still SO far beyond my comprehension.

So when some 21-year old grunt brags about having it all figured out, please, in advance, please STFU already.  Cause you don't.  And just like me, you never will.

[Archer77]

i studied 9/11 for about a year, and think i figured out some of what happened that day.  however, i still am not sure if even planes were used to hit the towers, as they acted like missiles and looked like planes.  

i followed the mid east political mess pretty closely for the last 6 months or so.  it's about oil.  it's about setting up bases for Iran next, and others down the road.  it's about energy to meet our needs in a world where we can't compete anymore.  Chinese cheap labor means we can never compete on mnfg again.  And the folks leading our country know it, and want to keep us #1 because yes, they do love America.

Our leaders, taking heat for all of this.  yeah, they're greedy and hooking up their friends with the contracts.  But yeah, they also love America.  Bush, cheney, rummy... these guys were all deca millionaires in the 80s.  They don't have to wear suits to stressful jobs in their 50s and 60s, enjoy the guilt of the terrible choices leaders have to make, and know billions hate them.  They don't need the money, and the power high subsides quickly.  I honestly think they do it because they love America and want her to remain the only superpower, at all costs.

I guess I"m trying to say that after studying the hell out of it, I don't know the truth about 911 (although i do know some here knew and the official story is lies).  I don't know all of the reasons, implications, and possibilites in the middle east.  And I sure don't know the bigger plan, whether the be a N American union or whatever.  And I have a degree in history and another MBA/economics, and I watch the news like a fiend.  So despite all my tools and study, the way the world works is still SO far beyond my comprehension.

So when some 21-year old grunt brags about having it all figured out, please, in advance, please STFU already.  Cause you don't.  And just like me, you never will.

I also have a degree in history and am working on my Masters in Political Science.  I am also a member of the United States Army Reserves.  What your saying is absolutely correct.   We are seeing a paradigm shift away from the way that wars were being fought.  Economic warfare between nations has replaced direct military action.  This applies to large powerful nations.  Wars are being fought and have been fought since the cold war against poorer nations mainly for positioning and the aquisition of valueable resources by which to encourage industry

[vikingpower]

great posts both of you

traditional warfare is obsolate because of advanced weaponry like nuclear capabilities ... when push comes to shove we can blow up the world 10x over and nobody wants to see that (well thats a stretch, im not convinved that certain people wouldnt like to see an 80% population reduction)

the idea of the us government killing 3k of its own may seem absurd at first, but when you think of the 3k amreekans who volunteered to die in iraq, the 60k who died in vietnam ... does it reall matter that 3k (involuntarily) gave their lives for (y)our future?

[Archer77]

great posts both of you

traditional warfare is obsolate because of advanced weaponry like nuclear capabilities ... when push comes to shove we can blow up the world 10x over and nobody wants to see that (well thats a stretch, im not convinved that certain people wouldnt like to see an 80% population reduction)

the idea of the us government killing 3k of its own may seem absurd at first, but when you think of the 3k amreekans who volunteered to die in iraq, the 60k who died in vietnam ... does it reall matter that 3k (involuntarily) gave their lives for (y)our future?

A lot of things would have been different if they had kept the military intact.  I am certain there were a lot of bad guys in the Iraqi military but they would have understood the quickest way to maintain order. Generals and soldiers are forced to do what commanders instruct them to do.  We all make an pledge.  It is no surprise that many generals turned down flat the opportunity to fill the new position of war czar.  The position of War Czar is scary for two reasons, first is demonstrates that the current policy makers do not have a handle on the situation and it also indicates that the "global war on terror" is going to continue for some time beyond the current administration.  I wonder if creating the war czar is an attempt to distance policy from political parties.  Blame is ultimately shifted towards a third party and not a particular political party who might be effected in future elections by the fall out of bad policy.  Just my opinions.

[240 is Back]

nobody wants ownership of this war, even tho all parties reap the benefits (oil and position) and the pitfalls (world hatred and lost soldiers/$).

Bush and friends are the face of it, but the thinktanks and economists are the ones who strongly advised it.  Bush and friends had to go on tv and sell the mushroom cloud scare, cause a group of nerds explaining longterm economics wouldn't have motivated folks to support the war.  but fear? that'll do it!!

Dems support it, and they now support bombing iran.  it is what it is.  A war czar would allow for another 9-months stretch of "blame it on incompetence".  I mean, it's been 4 years, and people are still saying "it wasn't bushs fault, it was the generals.... this new plan will WORK!"

It's asinine, but people buy the 'incompetence' card.  The FAA supervisor destroying all the 911 recordings -> incompetence!  WMD intel being cherry picked for congress? Incompetence!

In the pvt sector, incompetence gets you fired.  In politics, people don't care, because they'd rather support their own wrong party, than the other guys when they're right on something.

[vikingpower]

scott ritter had a great point when he if a sports writer fucks up vince carters ppg avg he will be fired on the spot yet nobody cares when the mainstream media drops the ballon 911, war, terrorism etc

the same sort of philosophy applies to politics ... doesnt matter when the politicians lie about WMD, 911/saddam links but god forbid someone should get a blowjob or go on a compt vacation

[Archer77]

nobody wants ownership of this war, even tho all parties reap the benefits (oil and position) and the pitfalls (world hatred and lost soldiers/$).

Bush and friends are the face of it, but the thinktanks and economists are the ones who strongly advised it.  Bush and friends had to go on tv and sell the mushroom cloud scare, cause a group of nerds explaining longterm economics wouldn't have motivated folks to support the war.  but fear? that'll do it!!

Dems support it, and they now support bombing iran.  it is what it is.  A war czar would allow for another 9-months stretch of "blame it on incompetence".  I mean, it's been 4 years, and people are still saying "it wasn't bushs fault, it was the generals.... this new plan will WORK!"

It's asinine, but people buy the 'incompetence' card.  The FAA supervisor destroying all the 911 recordings -> incompetence!  WMD intel being cherry picked for congress? Incompetence!

In the pvt sector, incompetence gets you fired.  In politics, people don't care, because they'd rather support their own wrong party, than the other guys when they're right on something.

Your absolutely right, the PNAC, American Heritage Foundation and others have had their sights on Iraq for some time.  Listening to some of them try to back pedal now is pretty sad.

[ToxicAvenger]

 But yeah, they also love America.  

occums razor dosen't fit here..


selfish needs does..

[240 is Back]

IMO, they met their own needs decades ago.

Cheney is on a machine to keep his ticker going.  He spends his days in meetings with a frown on his face.  He's worth hundreds of millions.  Most of us would be sipping pina coladas someplace warm, if we were in our 60s with that much money, not working the most stressful job on earth.

He spent the 90s negotiating with the taleban to give the US oil/gas rights in afghanistan, helped get them into power the minute he took office, then attacked them when they changed their mind and decided to give the oil contract to a S. American firm.  He didn't need the money.  But his actions were useful for longterm US energy goals. 

Honestly, in 20 years or 100 years, when we look back, aside from the horror of 9/11 and the grudge the world will hold, the influence of Cheney will have meant stronger US position in that region, and another decade or two of energy supremacy for us that we couldn't have had without these wars.

[gcb]

IMO, they met their own needs decades ago.

Cheney is on a machine to keep his ticker going.  He spends his days in meetings with a frown on his face.  He's worth hundreds of millions.  Most of us would be sipping pina coladas someplace warm, if we were in our 60s with that much money, not working the most stressful job on earth.

He spent the 90s negotiating with the taleban to give the US oil/gas rights in afghanistan, helped get them into power the minute he took office, then attacked them when they changed their mind and decided to give the oil contract to a S. American firm.  He didn't need the money.  But his actions were useful for longterm US energy goals. 

Honestly, in 20 years or 100 years, when we look back, aside from the horror of 9/11 and the grudge the world will hold, the influence of Cheney will have meant stronger US position in that region, and another decade or two of energy supremacy for us that we couldn't have had without these wars.

But it is only a short to mid-term solution - we need to switch to the corn oil 240 you know that.

[240 is Back]

But it is only a short to mid-term solution - we need to switch to the corn oil 240 you know that.

We are.  But the transition hit will be a big one.  This year's planting season has the LARGEST corn planting in sixty years, for the specific reason that ethanol is coming.  however, it'll take a few years for production to become cost effective, and it'll take longer to convert a half a billion cars, or spawn a whole new generation of vehicles.  With the US dollar taking a beating in the world, a hit like that might put us into the recession we've been stifling since 2001. 

My opinion is that we are using the oil from the mid east to enable this transitional time.  We know the farmers all planted it last year - so they got their directive.  And we know we took Iraq (and surrounded iran) - and that directive is pretty clear - use the oil from those nations.

All we want is a seamless transition.  Without a surplus, the transition will be painful.  Big Oil is gonna have to plunder to keep its head above water while the US energy infrastructure is converted, cause its refinery and exploration capacities will be reduced by the resource shift.  Simple as that.

[gcb]

Mean while there is chaos in iraq, possibly iran - what is the total toll in human casualties for the iraq war, I wonder if they think it was worth it.

[240 is Back]

Mean while there is chaos in iraq, possibly iran - what is the total toll in human casualties for the iraq war, I wonder if they think it was worth it.

the earth has too many people.  there is a trend by the higher thinkers to gradually reduce the 6 billion number.  population controls like birth control and education are used, as are techniques like "let them kill each other" and "don't treat this disease".

It's in OUR interests for there not to be 6 billion people on earth, so population decline is in our best interests too.  Whether people in Iran live to 15 and die violently, or live to 75 and die peacefully doesn't affect 300 million Americans.  Have you noticed trends?  Half of Africa has AIDS?  Have you seen the population decline in Iraq?  The population in the US has leveled off.  This is by design.  Discouraging folks in Africa (who have 5 or 8 kids they can't feed) from breeding ain't a bad thing.  Since they don't take our word for it on a micro scale, we make the changes on a MACRO scale.  One or two policy shifts at the CDC mean 100 million Africans don't reproduce.  make sense?

[AE]

Bush redefined success in Iraq a few days ago.

"Success is not, no violence. There are parts of our own country that have got a certain level of violence to it. But success is a level of violence where the people feel comfortable about living their daily lives. And that’s what we’re trying to achieve."

From building a democratic state in the middle east to this. What a tard and waste of lives.  

We were much better off with a President that was screwing an intern than one that is screwing the whole country.

[ToxicAvenger]

It's in OUR interests for there not to be 6 billion people on earth, so population decline is in our best interests too.  Whether people in Iran live to 15 and die violently, or live to 75 and die peacefully doesn't affect 300 million Americans.  Have you noticed trends?  Half of Africa has AIDS?  Have you seen the population decline in Iraq?  The population in the US has leveled off.  This is by design. 

do you NOW believe in masonic control?

[ToxicAvenger]

IMO, they met their own needs decades ago.

Cheney is on a machine to keep his ticker going.  He spends his days in meetings with a frown on his face.  He's worth hundreds of millions.  Most of us would be sipping pina coladas someplace warm, if we were in our 60s with that much money, not working the most stressful job on earth.

my dad can retire yesterday..
the man wake up at 5 every day and comes home at 1 pm..eats..takes a nap and then goes back to work till 8 pm..

i cant do it..

power is addicting..

like cheney wants to be just another old fart on another pleasure island..