Should the U.S. have universal healthcare for children?

[240 is Back]

It's not anything CT.  It's simple economics coupled with the utilitarian midset of national planners.

If it costs $X to provide free health care, it will cost another $Y because they will now live longer.  Period.

[w8tlftr]

Zing.  So what.  You have a problem with welfare? 

Welfare is proven to battle poverty effectively. 

Welfare gives people down on their luck a second chance at getting back on their feet as contributing workers thus keeping the pool of available workers afloat thus keeping inflation at bay.

Our welfare system is broken. It's supposed to help get people back on their feet so they can contribute to society.

Instead we have a system of dependency.

[Decker]

lmao, "down on their luck" right, you might get 10% of the people on welfare just needing a helping hand for a short period. The rest live on it for life because it is to easy.

                  Percent of
Time on AFDC         Recipients
-------------------------------
Less than 7 months   19.0%
7 to 12 months       15.2
One to two years     19.3
Two to five years    26.9
Over five years      19.6 

Overview of Entitlement Programs, Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives

Does that look like 10% to you?

This is getting off topic so I'll stop here on this point.

[Dos Equis]

How many million Americans are you okay with not having healthcare?

Here's the latest stat:

"The percentage of people without health insurance coverage rose from 15.6 percent to 15.9 percent (46.6 million people).
     These findings are contained in the Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2005 [PDF] report."

Link:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/007419.html

Assuming those numbers are accurate, how many of these 46.6 million have no access to healthcare? 

[egj13]

                  Percent of
Time on AFDC         Recipients
-------------------------------
Less than 7 months   19.0%
7 to 12 months       15.2
One to two years     19.3
Two to five years    26.9
Over five years      19.6

Does that look like 10% to you?

This is getting off topic so I'll stop here on this point.

my bad, 19%. Meanwhile 66% stay on it for more than a year? come on now.

[Dos Equis]

The home ownership bubble is largely due to the purchase of second, third and fourth homes amongst the wealthy and nonsensical interest only loans (which are crashing as we speak).

Jobs are out there for certain.  But for the marginally talented, those jobs don't carry Health Insurance. 

But we are on the same page.

Depends on where you live.  In Hawaii, every employer with one or more full-time employees is required to provide health insurance. 

[w8tlftr]

B/c the US has the finest emergency healthcare in the world.  The US stinks at preventive healthcare.  PHC is much more cost efficient than EHC.  Why wait for that pain in one's side to become cancer?

Preventive healthcare is where the US ranks right behind the Isle of Togo.

Hmmm... preventive health care.

You mean things like live a healthy lifestyle (diet, exercise, no drugs) and regular check-ups with your doctor? That sounds like a personal responsibility to me.

The sad fact is that there are a lot of people that make bad choices every day and do not want to take responsibility for them. It's really no different than maintaining a house or a car. You get what you put into it and if and neglect only snowballs into a big problem that could have prevented.

We need to address the problems with the system we currently have. What we don't need are more government programs and politicians that don't give a rat's ass about the people they represent and only care about power.

People need to take personal responsibility and quit relying on the government for everything. Do you really want us to live in a nanny/police state, Decker, where the government does absolutely everything for us and tells us how to live because they foot the bill for everything?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

I didn't say the government doesn't have it's place. I have no problem with the FDA regulating the drugs pumped out the the public.

I just don't want the government dictating my medical care.

A couple things you don't understand:
1. The government, via the FDA, controls which drugs are on the market and which drugs you may be able to have access to.  You have no problem with that?  I'm glad you see the benefit of that socialist system.

2. Universal healthcare does not mean that you or your employeer can't pay for whatever medical services you want from a private provider.  Just like public schooling doesn't mean that parents are restricted from sending their kids to private schools.  Both universal healthcare and public schooling allow for everyone to receive services.  For those that can afford other services that they would like to receive, they can pay out of pocket.

[Decker]

Depends on where you live.  In Hawaii, every employer with one or more full-time employees is required to provide health insurance. 

You're lucky.  Health is a topic left to the States as far as legislation goes. 

What is this Hawaii you speak of?  Is it like heaven?

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Depends on where you live.  In Hawaii, every employer with one or more full-time employees is required to provide health insurance. 

Bummer for small businesses trying to get a foothold the first few years.  That can be a big expense that breaks them. 

[Dos Equis]

You're lucky.  Health is a topic left to the States as far as legislation goes. 

What is this Hawaii you speak of?  Is it like heaven?

lol.  We call it Paradise.    I'm currently looking at a rainbow hovering over the harbor.  It is a privilege and a blessing to live here.  It's just awesome:  the weather, mountains, ocean, people, clean air, low violent crime rate.  As I tell people, there are two ways I am leaving this rock:  in a box or when Jesus comes, whichever happens first.    

[w8tlftr]

A couple things you don't understand:
1. The government, via the FDA, controls which drugs are on the market and which drugs you may be able to have access to.  You have no problem with that?  I'm glad you see the benefit of that socialist system.

2. Universal healthcare does not mean that you or your employeer can't pay for whatever medical services you want from a private provider.  Just like public schooling doesn't mean that parents are restricted from sending their kids to private schools.  Both universal healthcare and public schooling allow for everyone to receive services.  For those that can afford other services that they would like to receive, they can pay out of pocket.

I have my share of problems with the FDA - especially which drugs they decide are legal and not legal.

Yeah, and our public school system is the best in the free world. 

You need a better example, LSD.

[Decker]

Hmmm... preventive health care.

You mean things like live a healthy lifestyle (diet, exercise, no drugs) and regular check-ups with your doctor? That sounds like a personal responsibility to me.

The sad fact is that there are a lot of people that make bad choices every day and do not want to take responsibility for them. It's really no different than maintaining a house or a car. You get what you put into it and if and neglect only snowballs into a big problem that could have prevented.

We need to address the problems with the system we currently have. What we don't need are more government programs and politicians that don't give a rat's ass about the people they represent and only care about power.

People need to take personal responsibility and quit relying on the government for everything. Do you really want us to live in a nanny/police state, Decker, where the government does absolutely everything for us and tells us how to live because they foot the bill for everything?

I agree that healthy living is important and a matter of personal responsibility.  But even the healthy get sick--cancer, diabetes, etc.  How can you see a doctor regularly for preventive check-ups without insurance?

I want government to provide a safety net for those with less in this country.  Let us rugged individuals stake our own claims and blaze our own paths.

As an anecdotal matter, think of how incompetent and dumb the average person is.  Half the people out there are worse than that.

On a more sober note, I would say that the world needs waitresses, ditch diggers, vegetable pickers etc. and those people should have access to preventive healthcare to help ensure a healthy meaningful life. 

Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, executive etc.

If that's what you consider a nanny/police state endeavor, then I'm guilty as charged.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Yeah, and our public school system is the best in the free world. 

So should we abolish the public school system and privatize it, or fund it properly (well paid teachers, computers in every classroom, etc.)? 

[Dos Equis]

Bummer for small businesses trying to get a foothold the first few years.  That can be a big expense that breaks them. 

True.

[Hedgehog]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying, Decker. We've had this talk before about taxes and how our money is wasted and how it should be given back to the people so WE can make choices for ourselves.

You want me to ask a government office if they think the government is buried in corruption and layers of red tape? Do you honestly think they'll say, "Yeah, maybe just a bit"?

Tell me something. If all the countries you listed have such fantastic health care systems then why do so many people come to the United States for treatment? Is there any other country you would rather have medical treatment besides here?

No offence, but I would not trade the Swedish health care system for the US system for anything.

Despite that we pay for everyone.

It's terrible to read about persons in the USA not having health insurance, and therefore not being able to get the proper treatment.

I saw an ad for a guy who was dying of cancer, and his relatives was asking for donations, apparently a surgery could save him, but he had no insurance. Stuff like that is crazy.

A man will die, someone who could work and produce in the society. But instead he is allowed to die away.

From a macro economical point of view, that's insanity.


Keep as many people healthy as possible.

The challenge is to do it in a capitalistic environment, with competing franchises, making sure the customer always gets the best treatment for the buck.

There have been problems in Sweden, with not enough competing franchises, creating doldrum. But it seems like with the European Union, the amount of franchises competing for business is satisfactory.

-Hedge

[24KT]

I'll put down my glass after you put down your pitcher of Socialist-Aid. 

Ever been to a military hospital? That's just a glipse of what Universal Health Care would be like in America. No fucking thanks. Besides enough of my tax dollars are wasted on dumb ass career politicians (socialist liberals AND pseudo-conservatives) and lazy fuckers that won't learn to fish.

You love nanny states so enjoy your socialist utopia in Canada and leave the United States to Americans.

A Military hospital is a bad example. We all know the US doesn't give a shit about their military personnel.
They're useful to them when they're killing other people, but when they can no longer kill or get killed... who cares?

That may be hard for you to hear and or accept because you are military, and your wife was career military,
...but those are the facts... evidenced by the deplorable state of conditions wounded vets have to endure.

Just look at cuts made to benefits etc after many shipped out... look at everything... the picture should emerge abundantly clear. 

ps - Your tax dollars are not going to dumbass career politicians. They're going to pay the enormous interest on the debt to private bankers whom your gov borrowed money from to send you into battle to kill and die.

Gotta love the irony in that huh? huge loans are taken out daily to fund people like you risking your life in some foreign country to do 'God knows what', ...and if you survive the hell you're plunged in, ...you get to pay for it for the rest of your life. If you don't survive... your kids get to pay for it for the next few generation. Heck... they'll be paying either way. What racket! Where do i sign up?

I could loan you a million bucks at 24% interest compounded daily, ...then have you mine a football field, ...then have you and your family run around in it for a few years. In the end, if you survive... You pay me back in interest only payments. If you don't survive, I take your house, your boat, and all your possessions, and your descendants live in indentured servitude to me for the next 7 or 8 generations. Kewl? 

Don't tell me you've shoved the Aaron Russo doc down the memory hole so quickly? 

ps: I will enjoy Canada. Unfortunately... not as many American's will be able to enjoy the USA.

[w8tlftr]

I agree that healthy living is important and a matter of personal responsibility.  But even the healthy get sick--cancer, diabetes, etc.  How can you see a doctor regularly for preventive check-ups without insurance?

I want government to provide a safety net for those with less in this country.  Let us rugged individuals stake our own claims and blaze our own paths.

As an anecdotal matter, think of how incompetent and dumb the average person is.  Half the people out there are worse than that.

On a more sober note, I would say that the world needs waitresses, ditch diggers, vegetable pickers etc. and those people should have access to preventive healthcare to help ensure a healthy meaningful life. 

Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, executive etc.

If that's what you consider a nanny/police state endeavor, then I'm guilty as charged.

I agree with you on this. Government should provide for those who truly can not take care of themselves.

But that does not excuse anyone who is able to work from getting health insurance through their employer.

What we should be tackling is how to make insurance affordable and fair - not more government programs that talk big but do nothing.

[w8tlftr]

So should we abolish the public school system and privatize it, or fund it properly (well paid teachers, computers in every classroom, etc.)? 

I'm not saying we get rid of public school - not at all.

However, throwing money at a problem simply doesn't fix it.

[w8tlftr]

A Military hospital is a bad example. We all know the US doesn't give a shit about their military personnel.
They're useful to them when they're killing other people, but when they can no longer kill or get killed... who cares?

That may be hard for you to hear and or accept because you are military, and your wife was career military,
...but those are the facts... evidenced by the deplorable state of conditions wounded vets have to endure.

Just look at cuts made to benefits etc after many shipped out... look at everything... the picture should emerge abundantly clear. 

ps - Your tax dollars are not going to dumbass career politicians. They're going to pay the enormous interest on the debt to private bankers whom your gov borrowed money from to send you into battle to kill and die.

Gotta love the irony in that huh? huge loans are taken out daily to fund people like you risking your life in some foreign country to do 'God knows what', ...and if you survive the hell you're plunged in, ...you get to pay for it for the rest of your life. If you don't survive... your kids get to pay for it for the next few generation. Heck... they'll be paying either way. What racket! Where do i sign up?

I could loan you a million bucks at 24% interest compounded daily, ...then have you mine a football field, ...then have you and your family run around in it for a few years. In the end, if you survive... You pay me back in interest only payments. If you don't survive, I take your house, your boat, and all your possessions, and your descendants live in indentured servitude to me for the next 7 or 8 generations. Kewl? 

Don't tell me you've shoved the Aaron Russo doc down the memory hole so quickly? 

ps: I will enjoy Canada. Unfortunately... not as many American's will be able to enjoy the USA.

No, I haven't forgotten the Aaron Russo doc. It still pisses me off.

[24KT]

No, I haven't forgotten the Aaron Russo doc. It still pisses me off.

Ahhhh ...poor baby 

But look on the bright side... you have your morning commute to look forward to. 

BTW: How's the gas pump treating you these days? 

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

I'm not saying we get rid of public school - not at all.

However, throwing money at a problem simply doesn't fix it.

So you like that social program.  Good for you.  Better funding of schools, including paying teachers a decent salary, might draw people into the profession who chose a different profession because they wanted to make a living wage.  Adaquate funding of social programs is not the same as "throwing money at a problem."

[w8tlftr]

Ahhhh ...poor baby 

But look on the bright side... you have your morning commute to look forward to. 

BTW: How's the gas pump treating you these days? 

My morning commute is fine. It's the afternoon commute that sucks. 

Lucky for me that I can afford to gas up my global warming SUV. 

[w8tlftr]

So you like that social program.  Good for you.  Better funding of schools, including paying teachers a decent salary, might draw people into the profession who chose a different profession because they wanted to make a living wage.  Adaquate funding of social programs is not the same as "throwing money at a problem."

It is when the system isn't working and you throw money at it anyways.

Don't confuse my approval of "social" programs like public education with my strong dislike for big government and tax and spend socialists.

[Hedgehog]

It is when the system isn't working and you throw money at it anyways.

Don't confuse my approval of "social" programs like public education with my strong dislike for big government and tax and spend socialists.

While I don't like your use of the word "socialist" for labeling programs like those, I completely agree with your take on the problem with effectiveness, and not getting the money's worth.

Capitalistic competition is key.

-Hedge