Author Topic: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!  (Read 51406 times)

Samourai Pizzacat

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Meeoow!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #200 on: May 12, 2007, 09:52:26 AM »
yes, good post that was, the simple fact that IQ tests vary so much  within subjects is a good sign that it's only an attempt to capture a stable quality as intelligence.

logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #201 on: May 12, 2007, 10:48:39 AM »
ah ok, well there's 2 sides to it.

On a normal scientific level that's fully acceptible, and what I was saying is that within a paradigm there is a consensus about the degree of objectiveness of such theories, We wouldn't get anywhere constantly debating objectiveness.

on a philosophical level it's a bit more complex:
Karl popper would say, you'll never know because you can't test all metals (some may be even undiscovered). It's the same as his famous "white swan theory": you can try to prove the theory 'all swans are wight" every time you see a white swan but it takes only one unexpected black swan to completely destroy the theory, Popper argued that science should try to falsify theories instead of trying to prove them.
Popper did say that continously proving a theorie improves it's 'degree of corroberation', meaning it's correspondance to the truth.

Duhem, Quine and Kuhn had some comments to all this, some questioning even the objectivity of empirics.



I totally agree on two points- that objectivity isn't objectivity by virtue of a bunch of scientists getting together and agreeing on something, and that scientific theories are impossible to prove beyond all doubt. However, I would say that objectivity is objectivity, independent from opinion or proof. If a scientific theory is objectively correct, then it's objectively correct, and it doesn't need to be proven so. Why we need to prove it is an epistemic issue- what we hold to be objective.

Samourai Pizzacat

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Meeoow!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #202 on: May 12, 2007, 10:58:01 AM »

I totally agree on two points- that objectivity isn't objectivity by virtue of a bunch of scientists getting together and agreeing on something, and that scientific theories are impossible to prove beyond all doubt. However, I would say that objectivity is objectivity, independent from opinion or proof. If a scientific theory is objectively correct, then it's objectively correct, and it doesn't need to be proven so. Why we need to prove it is an epistemic issue- what we hold to be objective.
I agree on that, it's just fun to try and get your mind around these kind of things, although it can get very nihilistic very quick.

dorkeroo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1403
  • I need steroids for the brain.
Re: 200 IQ AND 500 BENCH WE MUST GET HIM TO POST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #203 on: May 12, 2007, 11:02:40 AM »
I strongly agree with this post.  I was tested at 146 or 148 (I can't remember!!!) about 6 years ago, and joined Mensa as a result.  Since then I have only told prob a handful of people, because I don't like people to know.  Some people act differently around you.

At school I never really fitted in with a specific group, i.e. sporters, populars, goths, etc. and generally flitted from one to the other.  Since school, different people I have met and jobs I have worked in have allowed me to expand my social skills and I now get on well with pretty much anyone I meet.  In a strange way I do still find it difficult to fit in with a group, yet I still have friends from vastly different social circles.

As far as having a high IQ giving you a step up in life, I disagree.  I am nowhere near where I want to be, and sometimes feel that being intelligent can be as much of a hindrance as a help.  :-\

Fitted in? 146-148? ::)

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ AND 500 BENCH WE MUST GET HIM TO POST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #204 on: May 12, 2007, 04:12:50 PM »
Genetic inheritance is more important than socioeconomic status.
This is proven in the excerpt from Rushston's book.
TEAM REPTILIAN

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #205 on: May 12, 2007, 04:29:25 PM »
No. You didn't read the post.
TEAM REPTILIAN

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #206 on: May 12, 2007, 04:33:27 PM »
It's not.
TEAM REPTILIAN

logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ AND 500 BENCH WE MUST GET HIM TO POST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #207 on: May 12, 2007, 06:16:20 PM »
Genetic inheritance is more important than socioeconomic status.
This is proven in the excerpt from Rushston's book.



I'll have a closer look at this later when I get back from the gym. For the meantime, it sounds like classic Jensen- and all that that entails.

suckmymuscle

  • Guest
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #208 on: May 12, 2007, 08:42:05 PM »
  I am very sick right now. I have the Flu. I am going to bed. Sorry.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #209 on: May 13, 2007, 01:22:29 AM »
I'm copying this directly from Race, Evolution, and Behavior by Rushton

http://www.amazon.com/Race-Evolution-Behavior-History-Perspective/dp/0965683613


Interesting study.

The thrust, however, of the social-relations account of the I.Q test and the concept of intelligence is not limited to either a macro or micro level of analysis, or a particular domain of analysis. Such a thesis would, in my opinion, be as flawed as a purely biological account of human nature. The argument from more respectable social accounts of I.Q test scores is drawn from a totalistic account of all the social relations a particular person engages in. That is not to deny that there are different biologically caused neurological characteristics from person to person; what it is to say is, however, that wide-sweeping, 'race' generalizations such as the one supported in the quoted study are not products of any particular biological processes- they are produced by the long history of social, political, economic and ideological relations that the particular individual in question belongs to.

To illustrate, if one were to make use of possible worlds semantics, it would be to make the following claim-
If two people in respectively different possible worlds, x in X and y in Y, shared an exact physical duplicate, and shared an exact history of social relations, then both x and y would demonstrate the same level of intelligence.

I think that one of the weaknesses of this study is that it attempts to paint the social-relations view as only looking at a particular set of social relations- either socio-economic relations or what have you.


That's about as much as one can say in response to the excerpt that you have presented. It does not prove or even indicate anything more than any other member quoting a study to suit their argument- as is well known, one can find a study from the scientific community to support almost anything. To provide any kind of more meaningful reply- indeed, for you to provide any kind of meaningful argument- you would have to present each study's method, list of assumptions and hypotheses so we could get a better picture of what's going on.

Cheers.

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #210 on: May 13, 2007, 01:45:25 AM »
More respectable?

You'll be hard pressed to find someone more "respectable" than J. Philippe Rushton.

What you are saying could be true, except they tested a large group of people;
you won't find a "spoke in the wagon" leading to these results.

If it was a small sample that might be the case.

Your response is typical of someone grasping at straws to defend a position,
because the scientific evidence makes people feel unconformable.
No matter how convincing the evidence, someone will jump through hoops to discredit it,
because the end result is not acceptable in the politically correct world we live in.

I agree, you would have to look into the test more to determine how accurate or unbiased they may be.
The results however are pretty self-explanatory. Also, this is but one small excerpt in a book that examines not just intelligence test, but cranial capacity, exhaustive measurements of brains, neuron counts, documented sexual patterns, age of sexual maturity, and so on. The book is very thourough, but you would have to read it because I'm not typing it all out ;)
TEAM REPTILIAN

logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #211 on: May 13, 2007, 01:51:56 AM »
More respectable?

You'll be hard pressed to find someone more "respectable" than J. Philippe Rushton.

What you are saying could be true, except they tested a large group of people;
you won't find a "spoke in the wagon" leading to these results.

If it was a small sample that might be the case.

Your response is typical of someone grasping at straws to defend a position,
because the scientific evidence makes people feel unconformable.
No matter how convincing the evidence, someone will jump through hoops to discredit it,
because the end result is not acceptable in the politically correct world we live in.

I agree, you would have to look into the test more to determine how accurate or unbiased they may be.
The results however are pretty self-explanatory. Also, this is but one small excerpt in a book that examines not just intelligence test, but cranial capacity, exhaustive measurements of brains, neuron counts, documented sexual patterns, age of sexual maturity, and so on. The book is very thourough, but you would have to read it because I'm not typing it all out ;)



- I think you misread my post. I used the term respectable to refer to social-causal theories, a more respectable theory being one which takes a wider scope. I do not use the term respectable to refer to scientists or academics when quoting their views- this is basic argument from authority.

- I wouldn't be so hasty. It is possible to find a spoke in the wheel in almost any study, or, depending on which philosophical view you subscribe to, any study.

- My argument has got absolutely nothing to do with being politically correct. You don't know my views, as I have not expressed any of my opinions yet in this thread. For all you know, I might be a raving skinhead- all I'm doing is using logical analysis on your posts, and showing that your arguments are lacking in significant areas.

- For your last paragraph, see my second point.

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #212 on: May 13, 2007, 01:58:04 AM »
These aren't my arguments.

What you are saying is true; this study doesn't prove it beyond ALL doubt.

Looking at the state of the world I believe the implication of these results to be true.

Actual measurements of skulls, cranial capacity, neurons, sexual maturity rates are indisputable.

You can argue that correlation doesn't equal causation, but we know in time it will be proven true.  :)
TEAM REPTILIAN

Samourai Pizzacat

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Meeoow!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #213 on: May 13, 2007, 02:39:02 AM »
These aren't my arguments.

What you are saying is true; this study doesn't prove it beyond ALL doubt.

Looking at the state of the world I believe the implication of these results to be true.

Actual measurements of skulls, cranial capacity, neurons, sexual maturity rates are indisputable.

You can argue that correlation doesn't equal causation, but we know in time it will be proven true.  :)
lots and lots of correlations remain just that, correlations. They will never be proven to be a causality, simply because these matters are very complicated and have many confounders. Saying that these correlations are causalities waiting to be proven is not correct.


logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #214 on: May 13, 2007, 02:48:38 AM »
These aren't my arguments.

What you are saying is true; this study doesn't prove it beyond ALL doubt.

Looking at the state of the world I believe the implication of these results to be true.

Actual measurements of skulls, cranial capacity, neurons, sexual maturity rates are indisputable.

You can argue that correlation doesn't equal causation, but we know in time it will be proven true.  :)


Well no, we don't know that. As Samourai says, plenty of perceived-correlations remain perceived-correlations or are in fact correlations. If A entails both B and C and A is unobservable, and it appears to you that B is always present at the same time as C- because, indeed it is- you're wrong in saying that B causes C or vice versa. And, that's all studies such as these can ever hope to show; do they even show this? I highly doubt it- but the onus is on you to prove that.

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12947
  • What you!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #215 on: May 13, 2007, 02:57:47 AM »
Neuroscientists are trying to find out just what intelligence is re brain processes, etc. That might be a more rewarding path than the endless debates about so-called intelligence tests.

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #216 on: May 13, 2007, 03:07:08 AM »
You can argue over why the results are what they are until you are blue in the face...

the results of the test themselves remain true, and this has definite social implications.

Based on the state of the world, I will make my own inference.
This is just the beginning; the Pioneer Fund will generate more studies and more thorough test.
We can hardly know anything beyond all doubt; all we do is make inferences.

The overwhelming evidence points to the implications being true.
TEAM REPTILIAN

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #217 on: May 13, 2007, 03:17:55 AM »
Neuroscientists are trying to find out just what intelligence is re brain processes, etc. That might be a more rewarding path than the endless debates about so-called intelligence tests.

We can also waste time arguing over the definition of intelligence,
meanwhile everyone that has spent 5 minutes talking to a retard knows what intelligence is.

High IQs, generally, correlate with high success.

More often than not, correlation IS indicative of causation.

When you see many, many, correlations, all pointing to the same conclusion, you start to form a logical opinion.
TEAM REPTILIAN

tleilaxutank

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2006
  • If it feels good twitter it
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #218 on: May 13, 2007, 05:29:36 AM »
Blah Blah Blah Blah


logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #219 on: May 13, 2007, 05:36:13 AM »
You can argue over why the results are what they are until you are blue in the face...

the results of the test themselves remain true, and this has definite social implications.

Based on the state of the world, I will make my own inference.
This is just the beginning; the Pioneer Fund will generate more studies and more thorough test.
We can hardly know anything beyond all doubt; all we do is make inferences.

The overwhelming evidence points to the implications being true.



Hardly. Results are results, that's it, end of story. They don't indicate anything, don't entail anything, don't imply anything, they don't even show with certainty the status of the working hypotheses. All an I.Q test result shows is an I.Q test result. If John goes in, sits for an I.Q test and scores 100, the results show nothing more than the fact that he went in to a particular place at a particular time and scored 100 on an I.Q test. If 1 million people did the same thing, and you statistical-analysed the shit out of the thing, you would be left in the same situation. The results indicate nothing more than the results. This is not an in-practice issue, it is an in-principle issue with the concept of I.Q testing.

It is why the results are the way they are which is important. It is why they are the way they are which will either lend support for or against your argument. If you want your claims to be taken seriously, then you need to discuss why. No one cares for the statistical data- as I said, you can quote ten million studies crammed full of statistical data showing your case- someone from the opposite camp can do the same.

You can infer anything you like from a set of I.Q test data. Make your own inferences till the cows come home, you're just another person with an opinion. Offer a reasonable argument to support your claims and someone might listen to you- all you've done though is shout the same claim over and over again. Maybe if you say it enough times it'll come true...monster realization of the truth of your recent intelligence claims ::)

dr.chimps

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 28635
  • Chimpus ergo sum
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #220 on: May 13, 2007, 06:16:06 AM »
More respectable?

You'll be hard pressed to find someone more "respectable" than J. Philippe Rushton.

What you are saying could be true, except they tested a large group of people;
you won't find a "spoke in the wagon" leading to these results.

If it was a small sample that might be the case.

Your response is typical of someone grasping at straws to defend a position,
because the scientific evidence makes people feel unconformable.
No matter how convincing the evidence, someone will jump through hoops to discredit it,
because the end result is not acceptable in the politically correct world we live in.

I agree, you would have to look into the test more to determine how accurate or unbiased they may be.
The results however are pretty self-explanatory. Also, this is but one small excerpt in a book that examines not just intelligence test, but cranial capacity, exhaustive measurements of brains, neuron counts, documented sexual patterns, age of sexual maturity, and so on. The book is very thourough, but you would have to read it because I'm not typing it all out ;)
LOL. If memory serves, he's at Western and he is universally reviled by the rest of the profs there and is more than a bit of an ambarrassment for the rest of the unis in Canada. I remember a few years back, he was  particularly noted when they were discussing the merits/problems of tenure (as they do every 10-odd years). 

Samourai Pizzacat

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Meeoow!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #221 on: May 13, 2007, 10:02:06 AM »
ouch! hehe

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #222 on: May 13, 2007, 10:40:02 AM »
We can also waste time arguing over the definition of intelligence,
meanwhile everyone that has spent 5 minutes talking to a retard knows what intelligence is.

High IQs, generally, correlate with high success.

More often than not, correlation IS indicative of causation.

When you see many, many, correlations, all pointing to the same conclusion, you start to form a logical opinion.

correlation is not indicative causation.

were did you learn this, its actually the opposite due to a number of extraneous variables.

realkarateblackbelt

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2095
  • Numero UNO!!!!!!!
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #223 on: May 14, 2007, 05:05:23 AM »


Hardly. Results are results, that's it, end of story. They don't indicate anything, don't entail anything, don't imply anything, they don't even show with certainty the status of the working hypotheses. All an I.Q test result shows is an I.Q test result. If John goes in, sits for an I.Q test and scores 100, the results show nothing more than the fact that he went in to a particular place at a particular time and scored 100 on an I.Q test.

That's right. I'm glad you recognise it.

Using your example, it shows John has a 100 IQ.
The results of the test have definite social implications. Why the results are what they are is up for debate.
The original hypotheses that spurned the test remains unproven definitively.

Quote
It is why the results are the way they are which is important. It is why they are the way they are which will either lend support for or against your argument. If you want your claims to be taken seriously, then you need to discuss why. No one cares for the statistical data- as I said, you can quote ten million studies crammed full of statistical data showing your case- someone from the opposite camp can do the same.

Really? No one cares for the statistical data? What an absurd statement. Statisticians are paid in the millions to provide statistical data to companies all the time. And no, you're wrong. You can't provide ten million studies showing the opposite of the studies in the excerpt from Rushton's book. I challenge you to do so. hahaha. I won't hold my breath.

Quote
You can infer anything you like from a set of I.Q test data. Make your own inferences till the cows come home, you're just another person with an opinion. Offer a reasonable argument to support your claims and someone might listen to you- all you've done though is shout the same claim over and over again. Maybe if you say it enough times it'll come true...monster realization of the truth of your recent intelligence claims ::)

My inferences are based on many studies all pointing to the same conclusion.
Many, many, many studies, all pointing to the sames conclusion.
I'll wait for you to provide some studies("millions" preferably) showing the opposite of the studies in Rushton's book.
You implied Rushton is disreputable when you hinted that he would include studies that aren't "more respected" in his book. The reality is, you know nothing about these studies. You made your own inference that they aren't respected after a taking a cursory glance over one paragraph describing them.

Rushton is one of the MOST respected psychology proffesors in the world. Despite the controversial nature of his studies, he is still recognised as such. The people in acedemia that would say otherwise(people like Jared Diamond) do so only because of the nature of his work. I imagine they would want to shut him up. Furthermore, if you want to discredit Rushton because all he shows is many, many, many correlations pointing to the same conclusion, you would have to discredit phsychology, since scarcely anything in psychology has been proven definitively.
Rushton doesn't claim to prove anything definitively.
Psychology is not a hard science like mathematics, and the ideas being proliferated are constantly changing.
Freud is being phased out by mainstream psyhcology.

J. Philippe Rushton

-Professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada.

-Holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc)

-Is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations.

-He is a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience.

-Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles.

-In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 11th most cited psychologist.

-Professor Rushton is listed in the Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada.
TEAM REPTILIAN

logical?

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: 200 IQ and 500 bench we must get him to post here!
« Reply #224 on: May 14, 2007, 05:43:41 AM »
That's right. I'm glad you recognise it.

Using your example, it shows John has a 100 IQ.
The results of the test have definite social implications. Why the results are what they are is up for debate.
The original hypotheses that spurned the test remains unproven definitively.

Really? No one cares for the statistical data? What an absurd statement. Statisticians are paid in the millions to provide statistical data to companies all the time. And no, you're wrong. You can't provide ten million studies showing the opposite of the studies in the excerpt from Rushton's book. I challenge you to do so. hahaha. I won't hold my breath.

My inferences are based on many studies all pointing to the same conclusion.
Many, many, many studies, all pointing to the sames conclusion.
I'll wait for you to provide some studies("millions" preferably) showing the opposite of the studies in Rushton's book.
You implied Rushton is disreputable when you hinted that he would include studies that aren't "more respected" in his book. The reality is, you know nothing about these studies. You made your own inference that they aren't respected after a taking a cursory glance over one paragraph describing them.

Rushton is one of the MOST respected psychology proffesors in the world. Despite the controversial nature of his studies, he is still recognised as such. The people in acedemia that would say otherwise(people like Jared Diamond) do so only because of the nature of his work. I imagine they would want to shut him up. Furthermore, if you want to discredit Rushton because all he shows is many, many, many correlations pointing to the same conclusion, you would have to discredit phsychology, since scarcely anything in psychology has been proven definitively.
Rushton doesn't claim to prove anything definitively.
Psychology is not a hard science like mathematics, and the ideas being proliferated are constantly changing.
Freud is being phased out by mainstream psyhcology.

J. Philippe Rushton

-Professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada.

-Holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc)

-Is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations.

-He is a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience.

-Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles.

-In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 11th most cited psychologist.

-Professor Rushton is listed in the Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada.

(My response point-by-point to parrellel your quote-by-quote)

- Well sure, I never denied that. What is someone supposed to do, deny that an I.Q test score is an I.Q test score? As I said, an I.Q test score is an I.Q test score, and nothing more. If John scores 100 on the I.Q test, then John scored 100 on the I.Q test. The following does not necessarily obtain (or, for my mind, contingently obtain): If John scores 100 on the I.Q test, then either his intelligence is at a certain level, or his intelligence is higher than a person who scored 90 on the same I.Q test. This is because I.Q test scores are multiply realizable. Yes, the results have social implications- I am in complete agreement with you here. What those implications are, however, is a different story. Further, to hold to a particular view and cite a number of supporting studies is not to indicate implication or entailment to that particular model.

- Tell me, have you heard the term exaggeration before? No?  You mean that if I went through all your previous posts I wouldn't find a single case of you using either metaphor or hyperbole? Do me a favour ::)

- I don't know whether you've comprehended my point or not- so I'll say it again, simply- a certain study result does not entail any conclusion beyond the concluding that a certain study result was obtained. As was already written several times, an I.Q score is nothing but an I.Q score, as ten million I.Q scores are nothing more than ten million I.Q scores. Sure, you can infer what you want from that; don't pretend, though, that because you have more studies that your inference is somehow more certain or valid. I implied nothing of the sort about Rushton- you read what you wanted to into my words; indeed, I was agreeing with Rushton that the particular views that he cited were flawed.

- I don't really think I need bother with the rest of your post since it is mainly dressed-up argument from authority, a strategy you seem to be fond of judging by some of your other posts. I'm not sure whether you're familiar with what argument from authority is or not- perhaps you should look it up. I could, however, lavish the same ludicrous praise on Newton. Would that make classical mechanics any more sensible when applied to micro systems?  ::)