Immigration question

[Cap]

So we have talked about many scenarios with this issue and how Mexicans do many jobs that (welfare) Americans will not do and businesses do not have to pay them the minimum wage or at least get away with it easily.  If all 12 million illegals became citizens, they would legally be entitled to minimum wage.  Despite the fact that illegals are fairly docile in their approach to everything, is everybody dumb enough to think that all these people would never unionize and get better wages?

[Camel Jockey]

You bring up an excellent point, cap. People assume these mexicans will stay the way they are, but that's not the truth.

They should have just granted amnesty with no chance for citizenship.

Also, you did hear of a guest worker program and no talk of a big wall/fence, so that means they're doing absolutely nothing about the border issue while catering to the needs of people who've already broken the law. 

[Dos Equis]

So we have talked about many scenarios with this issue and how Mexicans do many jobs that (welfare) Americans will not do and businesses do not have to pay them the minimum wage or at least get away with it easily.  If all 12 million illegals became citizens, they would legally be entitled to minimum wage.  Despite the fact that illegals are fairly docile in their approach to everything, is everybody dumb enough to think that all these people would never unionize and get better wages?

Good point. 

I'm also not convinced that they are performing jobs Americans will not do. 

[Cap]

Good point. 

I'm also not convinced that they are performing jobs Americans will not do. 

This says it all.  There is no way that all the unemployed in this country would not work any of these jobs and who would an employer rather hire if they are all legal citizens?  Someone who speaks English or Spanish?  What's going to happen to all the Mexicans who work long hours (past the legal limit) and they get longer breaks and shorter work days? 

[240 is Back]

So we have talked about many scenarios with this issue and how Mexicans do many jobs that (welfare) Americans will not do and businesses do not have to pay them the minimum wage or at least get away with it easily.  If all 12 million illegals became citizens, they would legally be entitled to minimum wage.  Despite the fact that illegals are fairly docile in their approach to everything, is everybody dumb enough to think that all these people would never unionize and get better wages?

hey, your president is spearheading the charge to make them legal.  he could veto that shit right off the bat.  instead, he's on the white hosue lawn talking about how great the bill is.

[Decker]

Good point. 

I'm also not convinced that they are performing jobs Americans will not do. 

Shouldn't the free market make adjustments for these undesirable jobs?

If these jobs are that bad, shouldn't the employer raise the wage to make the position more attractive to US workers instead of farming the work out to illegals that settle for substandard wages?

Both the employer and employee break the law in the current arrangement.

[Cap]

hey, your president is spearheading the charge to make them legal.  he could veto that shit right off the bat.  instead, he's on the white hosue lawn talking about how great the bill is.

You mean the bill that Kennedy is heading up?  It may be bipartisan to a degree but I think despite the hard on you hold for Bush, we all need to think about this seriously.  WE should decide this as AMERICANS not as politicians trying to get votes.  Everybody is now courting these illegals because they want more votes and each side is trying to one up each other to get them.  Why don't they kick them all out and make us all happy?  Illegals have already said they do not want to go the legal route, even with this guarantee.  You think they want to pay the 5 grand and return home to then stay?  I think not.

[240 is Back]

You mean the bill that Kennedy is heading up?  It may be bipartisan to a degree but I think despite the hard on you hold for Bush, we all need to think about this seriously.  WE should decide this as AMERICANS not as politicians trying to get votes.  Everybody is now courting these illegals because they want more votes and each side is trying to one up each other to get them.  Why don't they kick them all out and make us all happy?  Illegals have already said they do not want to go the legal route, even with this guarantee.  You think they want to pay the 5 grand to stay?

IMO, both the dems and repubs know quietly that without the illegals, our economy takes a huge hit.  And, since china can work folks cheap, and we need to compete, we need mex labor.

I just want to hear the anti-imm. folks here, who also parrot everything bush says, comment on Bush standing on the white house lawn this morning talking about how great this bill is. 


BTW-
It's not about votes - it's about the economy.   you don't do this in mid-07 for a Nov 08 election.  This is about saving our economy from chinese expansion by using mex labor and can resources - the n american union unfolding before our eyes. 

[Cap]

IMO, both the dems and repubs know quietly that without the illegals, our economy takes a huge hit.  And, since china can work folks cheap, and we need to compete, we need mex labor.

I just want to hear the anti-imm. folks here, who also parrot everything bush says, comment on Bush standing on the white house lawn this morning talking about how great this bill is. 


BTW-
It's not about votes - it's about the economy.   you don't do this in mid-07 for a Nov 08 election.  This is about saving our economy from chinese expansion by using mex labor and can resources - the n american union unfolding before our eyes. 

And what happens when all these people are entitled to American rights and we have to pay billions more than we already do for them?  Are you really too blind to see that they will unionize and as legal workers they will be entitled to higher wages?  They will get better money which would nullify what you are saying about cheap mexican labor.  If they can get the money, they will, and send it home.  It is about votes.  Wages will rise and we will pay for Mexicans on Welfare and other aid, which they do not deserve as ILLEGAL citizens.

[240 is Back]

the arguement is that

1) they'll be able to contribute to the social service infrastructure by now paying taxes on what they earn

2) best case - the US can now double its mnfg capacity in ten to 15 years based upon the influx of new workers and ability to work em in legal sweatshops for 7 an hour or less.

3) worst case - we stop hemmhoraging mnfg firms and jobs to china and mex.  they stay here, and pay taxes here.

[Dos Equis]

Shouldn't the free market make adjustments for these undesirable jobs?

If these jobs are that bad, shouldn't the employer raise the wage to make the position more attractive to US workers instead of farming the work out to illegals that settle for substandard wages?

Both the employer and employee break the law in the current arrangement.

The market will take care of itself, like it always does.  If employers need to raise wages to stay competitive and attract workers, they will.  We are always evaluating the local and national markets to determine whether our wages are competitive.   

Legal immigrants already hold a lot of the "undesirable" jobs over here.  I think about 99 percent of the janitors who work my office building are immigrants. 

[loco]

the argument is that

1) they'll be able to contribute to the social service infrastructure by now paying taxes on what they earn

Just thought I would point out that they do not have to become American citizens to work and pay taxes in the US.  They only need to become permanent residents, in other words get a "green card."  Non-Citizen, permanent residents have to pay taxes too.  They just won't be able to vote since only American citizens are allowed to vote.

I believe the reason politicians want to skip the permanent residence(green card) step and make them full American Citizens is for the votes.  Hispanics are the fastest growing population in the US.  That's a lot of votes.

So we have talked about many scenarios with this issue and how Mexicans do many jobs that (welfare) Americans will not do and businesses do not have to pay them the minimum wage or at least get away with it easily.  If all 12 million illegals became citizens, they would legally be entitled to minimum wage.  Despite the fact that illegals are fairly docile in their approach to everything, is everybody dumb enough to think that all these people would never unionize and get better wages?

You are absolutely correct.  Either way your economy will take a hit, whether you deport them or legalize them.  Best thing for your economy is leave the whole thing alone.  The right thing to do, however, is to legalize them and take a hit to the economy.  America will survive, just as it did after the abolition of slavery.  The right decision often requires some sacrifice.

[Decker]

Just thought I would point out that they do not have to become American citizens to work and pay taxes in the US.  They only need to become permanent residents, in other words get a "green card."  Non-Citizen, permanent residents have to pay taxes too.  ....

Great point.  Any paid US source of income is subject to taxation.  Illegals working in the US can legally participate in qualified retirement plans too.

[Cap]

Great point.  Any paid US source of income is subject to taxation.  Illegals working in the US can legally participate in qualified retirement plans too.

Illegals have already said, in response to this bill, that they would not want to come forward "out of the shadows" because they would 1.) have to pay money (a small portion considering all the back taxes)  2.) would not get a "cut in line" pass to the head of the citizenship line

[Camel Jockey]

Posted on: Today at 09:43:37 AMPosted by: cap86
Illegals have already said, in response to this bill, that they would not want to come forward "out of the shadows" because they would 1.) have to pay money (a small portion considering all the back taxes)  2.) would not get a "cut in line" pass to the head of the citizenship line

That's a bunch of garbage.. They should not be put on the path to citizenship.. Grant the fuckers green cards and make them wait 10 years like every other premenant resident wanting to become citizens.

This is pissing me off.. People spend thousands to get a visa to this country and keep on paying to bring their famalies and wait a decade for citizenship. These hispanics don't want to pay despite breaking the law and they want preferential treatment ahead of everyone else..

[Decker]

Illegals have already said, in response to this bill, that they would not want to come forward "out of the shadows" because they would 1.) have to pay money (a small portion considering all the back taxes)  2.) would not get a "cut in line" pass to the head of the citizenship line

Yeah, I see a problem with income tax (if applicable).  But most of the tax these illegals pay is payroll tax.

It does bother me that they circumvent normal legal channels for citizenship and end up rewarded for that.  But sometimes the slate's gotta be wiped clean...mostly for practical considerations...sort of like when Pres. Ford granted amnesty to deserters, draft dodgers, and conscientious objectors from the Viet Nam war era.

[loco]

Wow, hold your horses.  I don't believe illegal Hispanics want citizenship.  They do not want better working conditions.  They do not want a salary increase.  They do not want all this attention.  They just want to be left alone so they can do their job and get paid.  Whatever they are getting in the US is much better than what they would get back home.  Why do you think they risk their lives to go to the US?

It is the politicians who want to make them citizens, so they can get those votes.  Many American born citizens do not even vote.  I guess politicians figured that if they cater to Hispanics, make them happy and make them citizens, Hispanics will vote for them, them being the party that caters to Hispanics the most.  Why are politicians not happy with giving them only a green card?  Because then they'll be legal, but they can't vote.

By the way, many legal immigrants who have a green card choose not to apply for citizenship.  They just keep renewing their green card every 10 years.  They figure there are no benefits to being a citizen other than voting and receiving government grants, two benefits that even American born citizens do not always take advantage of.

[Option D]

Im just afraid that when the wages increase...Del monte will charge 6 bucks for a can of pineapples..

The illegal mexicans = low wages = low overhead = low production cost = low retail price

[Camel Jockey]

Im just afraid that when the wages increase...Del monte will charge 6 bucks for a can of pineapples..

The illegal mexicans = low wages = low overhead = low production cost = low retail price

Yep.. Everything will be priced like Europe and Japan..

[Option D]

Yep.. Everything will be priced like Europe and Japan..

So will we benefit on the backend somehow?

[OzmO]

Wow, hold your horses.  I don't believe illegal Hispanics want citizenship.  They do not want better working conditions.  They do not want a salary increase.  They do not want all this attention.  They just want to be left alone so they can do their job and get paid.  Whatever they are getting in the US is much better than what they would get back home.  Why do you think they risk their lives to go to the US?

It is the politicians who want to make them citizens, so they can get those votes.  Many American born citizens do not even vote.  I guess politicians figured that if they cater to Hispanics, make them happy and make them citizens, Hispanics will vote for them, them being the party that caters to Hispanics the most.  Why are politicians not happy with giving them only a green card?  Because then they'll be legal, but they can't vote.

By the way, many legal immigrants who have a green card choose not to apply for citizenship.  They just keep renewing their green card every 10 years.  They figure there are no benefits to being a citizen other than voting and receiving government grants, two benefits that even American born citizens do not always take advantage of.

I agree.

Other than security issues and language issues how is this a problem?

[loco]

I agree.

Other than security issues and language issues how is this a problem?

Hey OzmO!   

I guess on the surface it seems okay.  But some people view illegal immigration(cheap labor) as a form of slavery(free labor), where the master is happy with the slave's free labor, while the slave is happy with the master because the master treats him well and gives him good food and comfortable shelter. 
 
Even though they are both happy and the slave is not suffering, it is still wrong.  The master should free the slave and keep him as a paid worker.  The former master should now pay the freed slave enough money for him to buy his own food and pay for his own rent.
 
Some people look at it that way and believe the US should give illegals green cards, increase their pay and working conditions.  The US would take a hit in the economy, but you would be doing the right thing in abolishing illegal immigration.

This whole thing is political, but maybe it is good that it's happening to get people's attention, get them educated and informed about the issue, and eventually abolish illegal immigration.

[OzmO]

Hey OzmO!   

I guess on the surface it seems okay.  But some people view illegal immigration(cheap labor) as a form of slavery(free labor), where the master is happy with the slave's free labor, while the slave is happy with the master because the master treats him well and gives him good food and comfortable shelter. 
 
Even though they are both happy and the slave is not suffering, it is still wrong.  The master should free the slave and keep him as a paid worker.  The former master should now pay the freed slave enough money for him to buy his own food and pay for his own rent.
 
Some people look at it that way and believe the US should give illegals green cards, increase their pay and working conditions.  The US would take a hit in the economy, but you would be doing the right thing in abolishing illegal immigration.

This whole thing is political, but maybe it is good that it's happening to get people's attention, get them educated and informed about the issue, and eventually abolish illegal immigration.

Howdy loco 

Yeah i've heard that analogy before, but the difference is they do it by choice.

[Cap]

Illegals just want the benefits of living here without really being citizens.  This is obvious by current illegals saying that despite this bill, they would not want to pay the money or cooperate with government agencies or even leave and come back, which the plan sets up to happen.  These politicians are stupid to think these people will all be politically active or even a fraction for that matter.  Take the recent LAPD incident.  The big stink of this came from the reporters who were injured, not the illegals.  The illegals are hard working people, but they are not as politically active as people think.  If that were the black community that was injured you better believe people would have been fired, Bratton gone and probably a riot and definite Fed intervention.  The push for illegals is simply to be out of Mexico IMO.  If this bill passes, they will organize.  The AFL-CIO already stated that this is their goal.  You think things are bad now, give them "amnesty" because that is what it is, and see how high wages go.  They will be the same as what a citizen would get.  So all this talk about cheap labor will be a thing of the past within a few years of the citizenships be granted.  We ought to boot them out and just make the welfare bums do their jobs.  It really isn't that hard.  The labor is still being done for the same amount of money that is already being spent.  Split the bill between business and gov't and you have a cheap labor force still.

[loco]

Howdy loco 

Yeah i've heard that analogy before, but the difference is they do it by choice.

That's true.  They do it by choice because the low wages are more than what they get in Mexico.  The harsh working conditions are better than what they are in Mexico.  But it is still wrong morally, ethically, or whatever you want to call it.  They are people and they should be paid more and their working conditions should be improved.  It is true that they do it by choice, but the same could be said about slavery:

"In times of dire need such as famine, people have offered themselves into slavery not for a purchase price, but merely so that their new master would feed and take care of them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Other_uses_of_the_term