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Author Topic: The "sons" of God?  (Read 4382 times)
OzmO
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« on: May 19, 2007, 08:46:13 AM »

I've been curious about this. 


Genesis 6:2-4

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ............ when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them.


What does all mean?

What's the "Christian" take on this?

P.S.  I really am curious loco.  But based on anyone's answer ti may lead into a debate  Wink
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Butterbean
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2007, 09:00:26 AM »

I would like loco's take also but here is what my NIV Ryrie study bible has as footnotes to these scriptures:

(first the NIV version of these scriptures)

Genesis 6:1-4

...........the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


My bible's footnotes:  6:2  the sons of God.  Possibly the Godly line of Seth, or ungodly kings and kinglets of that day, or, more likely, a group of fallen angels (demons) who, because of this unique sin, were confined (see notes on 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6).  The phrase "sons of God" is used in the O.T. almost exclusively of angels.  they married Angels do not procreate after their kind but if these were angels, they did on this unique occasion cohabit w/human women to produce offspring.

6:3   My Spirit will not contend w/man forever.  Two interpretations possible:  1) The reference is to the Holy Spirit striving in the sense of judging or executing judgment on mankind for it's sinfulness.  2)  The human spirit that God placed in human beings would not always abide; i.e., mankind was doomed to death.  Man was given 120 years after this warning before the judgment of the Flood.

6:4   Nephilim.   From a root meaning "to fall"; i.e., to fall upon others because they were men of strength.  Evidently they were in the earth before the marriages of Gen 6:2, and were not the offspring of those marriage from which cam the heroes (military men) and men of renown (of wealth or power).
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OzmO
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2007, 10:05:41 AM »

I wonder if there is any reference to Angels being sons of God in other parts of the bible? 

Becuase of there isn't, i think we need to take the literal meaning of the text and not an assumed or interpreted meaning.  Because when we do that we are trying to fit it into our beliefs.

to me Genesis is one of most interesting books because it talks of the first days of man.
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2007, 02:37:08 PM »

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149715.0
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tu_holmes
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »

It's because it's stolen from the Pagan beliefs of "Many" gods... just like Norse, Greek, and Roman mythology.

The sons of God (Zeus, Odin, Saturn) who were also gods, mated with earthly women... It's all stories.
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Butterbean
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2007, 02:49:59 PM »

I wonder if there is any reference to Angels being sons of God in other parts of the bible? 

Becuase of there isn't, i think we need to take the literal meaning of the text and not an assumed or interpreted meaning.  Because when we do that we are trying to fit it into our beliefs.




Job 38:7 (King James Version)

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy


Job 38:7 (New International Version)

while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy

Footnotes:

Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God





Job 1:6 (King James Version)

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:6 (New International Version)

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Footnotes:

Job 1:6 Hebrew the sons of God





Job 2:1 (King James Version)

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


Job 2:1 (New International Version)
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.

Footnotes:

Job 2:1 Hebrew the sons of God
 
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2007, 02:56:35 PM »



yo stella, how come there weren't any daughters of God?  what's a fellow got to do if he wants to hook up w a female angel?
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Al-Gebra
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2007, 03:04:59 PM »

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

nephilim = numenoreans
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OzmO
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2007, 08:34:24 PM »

Job 38:7 (King James Version)

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy


Job 38:7 (New International Version)

while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy

Footnotes:

Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God





Job 1:6 (King James Version)

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:6 (New International Version)

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Footnotes:

Job 1:6 Hebrew the sons of God





Job 2:1 (King James Version)

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


Job 2:1 (New International Version)
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.

Footnotes:

Job 2:1 Hebrew the sons of God
 


It only goes to angels in translation.   And wow, angels can reproduce with humans?
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Al-Gebra
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2007, 08:41:44 PM »

Earth angel, earth angel
  Will you be mine?
  My darling dear
  Love you for all time
  I'm just a fool
  A fool in love with you

  Earth angel, earth angel
  The one I adore
  Love you forever and ever more
  I'm just a fool
  A fool in love with you

  I fell for you and I knew
  The vision of your love-loveliness
  I hoped and I pray that someday
  I'll be the vision of your hap-happiness oh, oh, oh, OH!

  Earth angel, earth angel
  Please be mine
  My darling dear
  Love you for all time
  I'm just a fool
  A fool in love with you-ou-ou

  I fell for you and I knew
  The vision of your loveliness
  I hope and pray that someday
  That I'll be the vision of your happiness
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Al-Gebra
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2007, 09:39:08 PM »

picture of a descendant of the nephilim. hth.


* nephilim.jpg (100.8 KB, 569x660 - viewed 231 times.)
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2007, 08:32:45 AM »


It only goes to angels in translation.   And wow, angels can reproduce with humans?

I read this as "aliens" and their experiments on human reproduction . Could be wrong, but in order for a animal to reproduce with another, they have to be of the same species, or very close related. In order for Angels to reproduce with humans, Angels must be a closely related if not humans themselves.
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loco
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 11:47:15 AM »

I've been curious about this. 


Genesis 6:2-4

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ............ when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them.


What does all mean?

What's the "Christian" take on this?

P.S.  I really am curious loco.  But based on anyone's answer ti may lead into a debate  Wink

Hey, OzmO!

This is my take on it:

Genesis 6:2-4 (New International Version)
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

 "sons of God" means angels as STella has shown above.  Nephilim is an ancient Aramaic word which nobody knows today exactly what it means.  It could mean "giant" or "fallen one".  Satan and his angels(demons) are fallen angels.  If you read in verse 4, it looks like the fallen angels(Nephilim) were already on the earth when the "sons of God"(other angels, not Nephilin) "went to the daughters of men and had children by them."  Then it says "They were the heroes of old, men of renown." 
 
The next verses may be talking about these angels who had sex with women. 
 
2 Peter 2:4
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
 
Jude 1:6
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Looks like their punishment was to be put into spiritual prisons where they are disconnected from reality, both spiritual and physical.  It looks like between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus' spirit went to this spiritual prison to preach to these demons, probably to show them and tell them that He, Jesus, had just been victorious in offering Himself for the sins of all humans.  Unlike Satan and his demons, these imprisoned angels would not have known what was going on here on earth and would not have known that God had sent His Son to die for the sins of humans.

Does the following look like Greek mythology? 

Genesis 6:4
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons(Zeus?) of God went to the daughters(Alcmene?) of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown(Hercules?)."

Yes, it does look like Greek mythology.  But thanks to history and archeology we know that Genesis 6:4 is much more ancient than Greek mythology.  So Genesis 6:4 could not possibly have come from Greek mythology, but it would be the other way around, that some of Greek mythology is based on Genesis 6:4.  People who witnessed these "heroes of old, men of renown" would have passed this information from generation to generation, to Noah's children, from Noah's children to those who would later become the Babylonians, then to the Persians, then to the Greeks and eventually to the Romans.  Many have theorized that mythology can contain grains of truth in the form of a highly distorted "folk memory".  But what was recorded in Genesis 6 is what truly happened and not mythology.
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2007, 06:12:20 AM »


yo stella, how come there weren't any daughters of God?  what's a fellow got to do if he wants to hook up w a female angel?
Umm  I don't know the answers to either of these questions!
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2007, 06:16:07 AM »


.   And wow, angels can reproduce with humans?
Apparently if those were angels, it happened in that "unique instance."

I read this as "aliens" and their experiments on human reproduction . Could be wrong, but in order for a animal to reproduce with another, they have to be of the same species, or very close related. In order for Angels to reproduce with humans, Angels must be a closely related if not humans themselves.

I think that's really interesting Parker.  Some people believe that UFOs are demonic.  They believe UFOs contain "aliens" which are actually demons.   

Loco, have you ever heard of the aliens = demons angle?
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2007, 06:32:58 AM »

Loco, have you ever heard of the aliens = demons angle?

Hi STella! No, I've never heard that one before.  When it comes to life in other planets, I'm indifferent.  The Bible does not mention it, that I'm aware of.  And we have no proof that they exist.  So they may or may not exist.
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OzmO
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2007, 10:42:42 AM »

Hey, OzmO!

This is my take on it:

Genesis 6:2-4 (New International Version)
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

 "sons of God" means angels as STella has shown above.  Nephilim is an ancient Aramaic word which nobody knows today exactly what it means.  It could mean "giant" or "fallen one".  Satan and his angels(demons) are fallen angels.  If you read in verse 4, it looks like the fallen angels(Nephilim) were already on the earth when the "sons of God"(other angels, not Nephilin) "went to the daughters of men and had children by them."  Then it says "They were the heroes of old, men of renown." 
 
The next verses may be talking about these angels who had sex with women. 
 
2 Peter 2:4
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
 
Jude 1:6
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Looks like their punishment was to be put into spiritual prisons where they are disconnected from reality, both spiritual and physical.  It looks like between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus' spirit went to this spiritual prison to preach to these demons, probably to show them and tell them that He, Jesus, had just been victorious in offering Himself for the sins of all humans.  Unlike Satan and his demons, these imprisoned angels would not have known what was going on here on earth and would not have known that God had sent His Son to die for the sins of humans.

Does the following look like Greek mythology? 

Genesis 6:4
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons(Zeus?) of God went to the daughters(Alcmene?) of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown(Hercules?)."

Yes, it does look like Greek mythology.  But thanks to history and archeology we know that Genesis 6:4 is much more ancient than Greek mythology.  So Genesis 6:4 could not possibly have come from Greek mythology, but it would be the other way around, that some of Greek mythology is based on Genesis 6:4.  People who witnessed these "heroes of old, men of renown" would have passed this information from generation to generation, to Noah's children, from Noah's children to those who would later become the Babylonians, then to the Greeks and eventually to the Romans.  Many have theorized that mythology can contain grains of truth in the form of a highly distorted "folk memory".  But what was recorded in Genesis 6 is what truly happened and not mythology.

Wouldn't that make the earth just 13k old then?

Tracing generations back from Jesus to Adam would be 4000 years plus 2000 years and 7000 years to make the heavens and earth?
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2007, 10:46:01 AM »

Wouldn't that make the earth just 13k old then?

Tracing generations back from Jesus to Adam would be 4000 years plus 2000 years and 7000 years to make the heavens and earth?

I don't know, OzmO.  I'm not one of those who say the earth is only about 6,000 years old.  And I don't try to use the Bible to calculate how old the earth is. 
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2007, 10:49:52 AM »

I don't know, OzmO.  I'm not one of those who say the earth is only about 6,000 years old.  And I don't try to use the Bible to calculate how old the earth is. 

I agree.  The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is or when "the beginning" was when the earth was without form, etc. 
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2007, 10:51:32 AM »

I don't know, OzmO.  I'm not one of those who say the earth is only about 6,000 years old.  And I don't try to use the Bible to calculate how old the earth is. 

So those calculations aren't correct based on who begot who?
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2007, 11:09:55 AM »

So those calculations aren't correct based on who begot who?

What calculations?  Are you referring to the recorded ages?  Yes, those are correct. 

Did you do the calculations yourself, OzmO?  Because you would have to go through the entire Old Testament, checking some outside historical references as well.  Whoever tried to use the Bible to calculate the earth's age could have missed a few things in the process.  You also would need a good understanding of the Jewish calendar.

Take Jesus alone.  Tradition says that Jesus was born in 1AD, but scholars place his birth at 8BC to 6BC.  That is just one person whose birth might be off by 9 years. You still have a lot more people to go.  Good luck!  Let me know what you come up with.
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2007, 12:02:29 PM »

What calculations?  Are you referring to the recorded ages?  Yes, those are correct. 

Did you do the calculations yourself, OzmO?  Because you would have to go through the entire Old Testament, checking some outside historical references as well.  Whoever tried to use the Bible to calculate the earth's age could have missed a few things in the process.  You also would need a good understanding of the Jewish calendar.

Take Jesus alone.  Tradition says that Jesus was born in 1AD, but scholars place his birth at 8BC to 6BC.  That is just one person whose birth might be off by 9 years. You still have a lot more people to go.  Good luck!  Let me know what you come up with.

I'm sensing a "smart a**" tone here when you ask me if i did those calculations.  Of course i didn't do them.   And you know that.  Or maybe you are trying to belittle my assertion.....  I donno.

But someone did, i can;t remember who,  i'll find it later.  And i'm pretty sure you've heard of it before.   The research indicated Adam and Eve were created around 4000 years BC.  He did this by counting generations outlined in the bible,  It won;t be 100% accurate as you have indicated with different calenders, but it will be int he ballpark plus or minus a few hundreds which is tiny when compared to how old the earth is.  But the point here is, or the question rather that will end up being a point is:

How old is the earth based on the Bible?   If God made the earth in 7 days and 1 day is a thousand years then the earth is 7000 years  old plus the creation of Adam until now.

Is that correct according to the bible?
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2007, 12:11:43 PM »

I'm sensing a "smart a**" tone here when you ask me if i did those calculations.  Of course i didn't do them.   And you know that.  Or maybe you are trying to belittle my assertion.....  I donno.

Not at all, OzmO.  You misunderstood me.  I know that many people have gone through the Bible and attempted to calculate the age of the earth.  Some have come up with 6,000 years, but you came up with 13,000 which is more than double.  So I was wondering if you have been reading the OT and came up with this yourself.  The Bible does not say how old the earth is and I don't believe that it intended to.  But using the information that is there to try to calculate this is interesting, but I believe that there is a lot of room for error in this. 
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2007, 12:13:45 PM »

Not at all, OzmO.  You misunderstood me.  I know that many people have gone through the Bible and attempted to calculate the age of the earth.  Some have come up with 6,000 years, but you came up with 13,000 which is more than double.  So I was wondering if you have been reading the OT and came up with this yourself.  The Bible does not say how old the earth is and I don't believe that it intended to.  But using the information that is there to try to calculate this is interesting, but I believe that there is a lot of room for error in this. 


Ok  Smiley.


But it does say how old it is.  just not directly.  Doesn't it say:  it created it 7 days including Adam?  so if you count from Adam......  then you get 6000-13,000 years or in between right?
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2007, 12:17:49 PM »


Ok  Smiley.


But it does say how old it is.  just not directly.  Doesn't it say:  it created it 7 days including Adam?  so if you count from Adam......  then you get 6000-13,000 years or in between right?

I don't know.  I've never looked into this myself.  Maybe I will my next time around reading the entire OT.  Maybe I'll come up with 3,000 or maybe 28,000 years.     Grin

Maybe other Christians on the board have an answer/opinion.
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