I think I'm beginning to see BUSH's immigration proposal, not that i agree

[Cap]

Funny how some of you keep calling these poor people criminals when it is your government that welcomed them and still allows them to come in for their cheap labor and to help maintain your comfy life style. All these poor people are doing is surviving and feeding their families.

If the US had a major economic crisis and Mexico was rolling in money and became the land of opportunity, would you not cross the border illegally into Mexico to get jobs there to feed your starving wife and children?  Getting permanent residence and citizenship in the US is a lengthy process.  These people don't have the time for all the bureaucracy.  They are in survival mode.  Some of them will rather be shot trying to cross the border illegally to quickly get a job and get money to feed their family.

BTW, if you deport them all, they'll just sit down in Mexico, enjoy a beer, plan their way back across the border and they'll be back in the US within a week.

So you mean for a process that is currently around 400 dollars to start (if I heard the news correctly the other day) is that hard?  I had a class with a girl who is 21 and came here when she was 4-6 yr old and she is still not legal.  You mean to tell me that she cannot do anything about it? Her mom waited 5 years just to apply for citizenship and that is her own fault.  There are plenty of people here in their 40's who never applied after 20+ years, bureaucracy or not, that is their fault.  There are plenty of other groups of people that follow LEGAL means and they don't take as long as Mexicans because they start it right away.  The laws are still in place and they know the laws.  Let's bring back the old "Tonk" rule and see how they like deportation.  There will not be any cheap labor if all become citizens and I for one am not going to pay for welfare, health care and all the other things my taxes already go to for legal citizens, not to mention that if they are legal we will lose any cheap labor we all talk about. 

[loco]

CAP,  then the children are separated form their families......that's not right.

Are you so crass you can't see the problem with that?

Also i told you i didn't think it was good idea BUSH had, only that now i see why it they thought of it.

OzmO, I appreciate your concern for the children of illegal immigrants!

[OzmO]

OzmO, I appreciate your concern for the children of illegal immigrants!

Thank you loco.   

I'm always concerned for Children no matter what.   In all the stupid things that go on in the world they are the most innocent an often pay the highest price for people's greed, violence, domination, acquisition of resources etc....

[Dos Equis]

I'm not saying anyone would abandon their kids.  All I'm saying is there would be only 2 outcomes and innocent children who are US citizens ultimately pay the price.

1.  They leave their kids here and tax our aid system
2.  They take their kids with them and we become the first nation to deport it's on citizens.


As you and i might not know how many work for less than minimum wage, it is a fact that these 12 million illegals are a BIG factor in our economy and if they all of a sudden leave it will cause great harm  to our economy. 

Our current system is a problem.  We should amend the Constitution, but I doubt that happens. 

I'm not convinced deporting illegals will cause great harm to our economy.  There are probably plenty of people waiting to fill their jobs; probably lots of LEGAL immigrants. 

[OzmO]

Our current system is a problem.  We should amend the Constitution, but I doubt that happens. 

I'm not convinced deporting illegals will cause great harm to our economy.  There are probably plenty of people waiting to fill their jobs; probably lots of LEGAL immigrants. 

I'm sure if you did just a little research on the subject you'd see why.  Or you could just live in the central California valley for bit and it would be crystal clear to you.   there isn't a a line of US citizens wanting  those jobs.........lol.   

Amending the constitution is fine, but then if we do, do we retroactively revoke those already born in the US their citizenship?

The best idea yet, seems to close the borders tight and in a decade or 2 the problem will work itself out economically.

[Dos Equis]

I'm sure if you did just a little research on the subject you'd see why.  Or you could just live in the central California valley for bit and it would be crystal clear to you.   there isn't a a line of US citizens wanting  those jobs.........lol.   

Amending the constitution is fine, but then if we do, to we retroactively revoke those already born in the US their citizenship?

The best idea yet, seems to close the borders tight and in a decade or 2 the problem will work itself out economically.

I know lots about the California situation.  I also know about the situation in Hawaii.  When you're separated from a foreign country by water, illegal immigration is much tougher.  What happens then?  LEGAL immigrants come and work the "undesirable" jobs.  I suspect the same thing would happen in California. 

I don't know what we do with all of the current children of illegals, but I have a problem with allowing illegals to stay solely because they had babies, likely at tax payer expense. 

[OzmO]

I know lots about the California situation.  I also know about the situation in Hawaii.  When you're separated from a foreign country by water, illegal immigration is much tougher.  What happens then?  LEGAL immigrants come and work the "undesirable" jobs.  I suspect the same thing would happen in California. 

I don't know what we do with all of the current children of illegals, but I have a problem with allowing illegals to stay solely because they had babies, likely at tax payer expense. 

I'm not suggesting we allow them to stay in the US because they have children at all.

Also, that's not true of the immigrants.   You see those companies paying illegals avoid having to pay a full wage they would have to pay a US citizen plus they avoid having to pay the 11% employee tax to boot.

[Dos Equis]

I'm not suggesting we allow them to stay in the US because they have children at all.

Also, that's not true of the immigrants.   You see those companies paying illegals avoid having to pay a full wage they would have to pay a US citizen plus they avoid having to pay the 11% employee tax to boot.

How do we know there are significant numbers of companies paying illegals less than minimum wage?

Also, you have to take into account the impact they have on the health care and criminal justice systems.  We are losing their tax revenue too. 

[OzmO]

How do we know there are significant numbers of companies paying illegals less than minimum wage?

Also, you have to take into account the impact they have on the health care and criminal justice systems.  We are losing their tax revenue too. 

The California agricultural industry depends on it.  With 4% unemployment, the majority of people not working are the unemployable or just flakes.  that's why if they leave you will not have a line of people waiting to get a job.  Illegal immigrants also do countless jobs no one wants and pay low.  consequentially, wages will have to be raised and prices will follow.  It will hurt the US.   That's what the government sees i believe.


no doubt about the burden.

[loco]

So you mean for a process that is currently around 400 dollars to start (if I heard the news correctly the other day) is that hard?  I had a class with a girl who is 21 and came here when she was 4-6 yr old and she is still not legal.  You mean to tell me that she cannot do anything about it? Her mom waited 5 years just to apply for citizenship and that is her own fault.  There are plenty of people here in their 40's who never applied after 20+ years, bureaucracy or not, that is their fault. 

cap86,
That girl who is 21 and is not legal cannot apply for citizenship.  She would have to be a legal resident for 5 years first.  She cannot apply for legal residence, or she would immediately get arrested and deported.  That is why many remain illegal, because applying for permanent residence would get them arrested and deported.  So, no, they cannot do anything about it.

There are plenty of other groups of people that follow LEGAL means and they don't take as long as Mexicans because they start it right away.  The laws are still in place and they know the laws.  Let's bring back the old "Tonk" rule and see how they like deportation. 

Yes, but those are professionals, or people who are given asylum, or people who have family that are legal.  A poor, starving Mexican who has no degree does not stand a chance to enter the country legally, much less stay in the country legally. 

There will not be any cheap labor if all become citizens and I for one am not going to pay for welfare, health care and all the other things my taxes already go to for legal citizens, not to mention that if they are legal we will lose any cheap labor we all talk about. 

You are correct, cap86, no more cheap labor if they become legal. 

About welfare and health care, aren't those for American citizens only?  Illegal Aliens can get welfare?

[Dos Equis]

The California agricultural industry depends on it.  With 4% unemployment, the majority of people not working are the unemployable or just flakes.  that's why if they leave you will not have a line of people waiting to get a job.  Illegal immigrants also do countless jobs no one wants and pay low.  consequentially, wages will have to be raised and prices will follow.  It will hurt the US.   That's what the government sees i believe.


no doubt about the burden.

Is the Ag industry employing minimum wage workers or paying illegals below minimum wage?  One possibility is illegal immigrants are taking jobs that legal immigrants could fill. 

[OzmO]

Is the Ag industry employing minimum wage workers or paying illegals below minimum wage?  One possibility is illegal immigrants are taking jobs that legal immigrants could fill. 

There's no motivation for that with an employer.  Why would an employer want to employ a illegal over a citizen risking criminal prosecution and fines?

Obviously there is financial benefit for having illegals which translates to paying less.

[Dos Equis]

There's no motivation for that with an employer.  Why would an employer want to employ a illegal over a citizen risking criminal prosecution and fines?

Obviously there is financial benefit for having illegals which translates to paying less.

So you agree these large employers are not employing illegals and paying them less than minimum wage? 

[OzmO]

So you agree these large employers are not employing illegals and paying them less than minimum wage? 

nope.  I'm saying that there is a financial benefit to employ legals that outweighs the criminal prosecution or fines that might occur.   To get a job in Californian you have to establish citizenship beyond your DL.   You have to provide a Birth certificate.     Yet all over the country there are 12 million illegals working many of which work for less than a citizen could earn saving these employers money.  Most of them work int eh agricultural and home services industries i believe.

[Dos Equis]

nope.  I'm saying that there is a financial benefit to employ legals that outweighs the criminal prosecution or fines that might occur.   To get a job in Californian you have to establish citizenship beyond your DL.   You have to provide a Birth certificate.     Yet all over the country there are 12 million illegals working many of which work for less than a citizen could earn saving these employers money.  Most of them work int eh agricultural and home services industries i believe.

I think my view is influenced a lot by what I see here.  Legal immigrants are all over the place working those undesirable jobs.  I have no doubt some businesses employ illegals, both here and on the mainland, but I think if they all went away tomorrow there would be plenty of people stepping in to take their place.

I also take a hard line stance because my parents were immigrants and came here legally.   

[ieffinhatecardio]

Fantastic thread, very interesting.

Frankly the scope of this problem is beyond our Government's reach. There is no real solution that is agreeable to everyone.


My opinion is first and foremost we tighten up the borders and severely limit if not altogether stop illegal immigration and then we take care of the situation with those already here. We can't deport 12 million, it's not feasible. They are here to stay whether we like it or not. We might as well make them viable citizens that at least have the chance to be contributing members of society.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

There is no real solution that is agreeable to everyone.

This is true of every social problem.  Only the dynamics of the problem can change.

[Cap]

cap86,
That girl who is 21 and is not legal cannot apply for citizenship.  She would have to be a legal resident for 5 years first.  She cannot apply for legal residence, or she would immediately get arrested and deported.  That is why many remain illegal, because applying for permanent residence would get them arrested and deported.  So, no, they cannot do anything about it.

Yes, but those are professionals, or people who are given asylum, or people who have family that are legal.  A poor, starving Mexican who has no degree does not stand a chance to enter the country legally, much less stay in the country legally. 

You are correct, cap86, no more cheap labor if they become legal. 

About welfare and health care, aren't those for American citizens only?  Illegal Aliens can get welfare?

Her mom and her filed ten years ago, that is their problem, not mine.  Yes, they can do something but chose not to.  Mexicans are so close that they can live in TJ and Tecate and wait to come back across. 

[chaos]

I'm sure if you did just a little research on the subject you'd see why.  Or you could just live in the central California valley for bit and it would be crystal clear to you.   there isn't a a line of US citizens wanting  those jobs.........lol.   
Amending the constitution is fine, but then if we do, do we retroactively revoke those already born in the US their citizenship?

The best idea yet, seems to close the borders tight and in a decade or 2 the problem will work itself out economically.

there isn't a line because they know they won't get those jobs, they don't speak the right language.

I'm with BB on this one, I don't see them having this huge impact on our work force. Plenty of teenagers and homeless/welfare rec. to do these jobs. Un-employment office could help fill these spots along with temp agencies etc.


And it's not like we could deport 12 mil at one time so the "impact" would be gradual over time.

Like that other guy said, they would just be having a beer planning on how to get back here anyways. We need to close the border TIGHT.

[OzmO]

there isn't a line because they know they won't get those jobs, they don't speak the right language.

I'm with BB on this one, I don't see them having this huge impact on our work force. Plenty of teenagers and homeless/welfare rec. to do these jobs. Un-employment office could help fill these spots along with temp agencies etc.


And it's not like we could deport 12 mil at one time so the "impact" would be gradual over time.

Like that other guy said, they would just be having a beer planning on how to get back here anyways. We need to close the border TIGHT.

That's nice in theory,  but those who are not working are doing so by choice IMO becuase they are lazy or what ever.  not all, but a large majority or the 4% who don;t work are lazy.  because if you want to get a job, you and i know it's not hard to do.

I agree, for security and for illegal aliens we must close the borders tight.

Also even if the 12 million people we deport is gradual we still deporting American citizens, which will go down as another scar on our history like the intern camps in ww2

[egj13]

I donno man.  I forgot who came up with the idea when i posted it, but because BUSH is the highest profile person pushing the idea i named him in my post.   I'm not criticizing BUSH in this case. 

He is trying to find a solution without going to war or persecuting someone.  So in my mind he's actually doing something right.

right on, you know all I try for is fair debating and to se eboth sides get there due. This bill is primarily a Democrat bill with minor bi partisan participation. I believe Bush is just trying to get something passed which is BS. We have waited this long and I think we should get it right before giving in.

[ToxicAvenger]

gives us your tired...your hungry...


the tired and hungry are usually uneducated lower classes..they multiply exponentially..educated folks have less kids..


i forsee a bleak future for this country..

[militarymuscle69]

gives us your tired...your hungry...


the tired and hungry are usually uneducated lower classes..they multiply exponentially..educated folks have less kids..


i forsee a bleak future for this country..

Ding ding ding...we have a winner....

[ToxicAvenger]

So you mean for a process that is currently around 400 dollars to start (if I heard the news correctly the other day) is that hard?  I had a class with a girl who is 21 and came here when she was 4-6 yr old and she is still not legal.  You mean to tell me that she cannot do anything about it? Her mom waited 5 years just to apply for citizenship and that is her own fault.  There are plenty of people here in their 40's who never applied after 20+ years, bureaucracy or not, that is their fault.  There are plenty of other groups of people that follow LEGAL means and they don't take as long as Mexicans because they start it right away.  The laws are still in place and they know the laws.  Let's bring back the old "Tonk" rule and see how they like deportation.  There will not be any cheap labor if all become citizens and I for one am not going to pay for welfare, health care and all the other things my taxes already go to for legal citizens, not to mention that if they are legal we will lose any cheap labor we all talk about. 

its a fucking slap in the face for people like myself that did go thru all the shit to do it legally..


hey i might as well spread the word..to all pakis that dont have the legal $ to get here..move on in on touristvisas..yall get to stay...why not spread the word to africa india..bangledesh china nepal indonesia and brazil also..

[ToxicAvenger]

o..yall thought that amnesty applies ONLY to mexicans?  nuuuuhhhh

what happens when all the 3rd world gets wind of this?   we gonna deny tourist visas ..no can do..


soo ALL them people that come here on tourist visas and then deside to stay get to stay??

get ready for a cluster fuck guys...